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Campfire Kahuna
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Would you like to borrow a bigger shovel? 
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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I'm now confused, so I'm going to try to clarify the argument, at least for my own sake. MontanaCreekHunter: The color of any given bear's hair is largely determined by environmental conditions. Sitka Deer: The color of any given bear's hair is largely determined by genetic factors. If I have this wrong, please straighten me out...because I at least want us know what we're arguing about. Thanks...  , Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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I can only speak for myself but yes that is what I am saying. I am not saying that there can't be other factors. Just that is the major factor.
I have provided support with my statements. He has provided nothing. Of course farming animals you can change genetics to achieve what you want. We are not talking about altering anything here. This is a natural wild animal. There is a big difference here.
Last edited by MontanaCreekHunter; 06/30/08.
Eat Fish, Wear Grundens, Drink Alaskan.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Darryl
I am saying genes determine the color of bear hair... Period.
MCH is contending bruins have unlimited access to Lady Bearol and change their colors at the drop of a honey bucket. Or at least decide after the fact what color they wish to be by choosing a particular habitat.
Which is of course a ludicrous Lamarckian thought process.
What I am saying is a combination of genes determines color. Often in color genes there is another rare, mostly unrelated gene trumping the works to produce a particular phase. Typically these genes work by disabling the color producing genes and produce a lighter color individual. Examples of this would include white labs. They have seven genes determining color in a normal run and yet a specific and generally unrelated gene can cancel the works and produce a white pup from two black parents.
MCH
You confuse the concepts of expectations and existance in the genome. Simply because the gene they thought they had isolated as phase determining proved inconclusive does not mean there is no gene determining color. Or as I read in a Heinlein novel decades ago "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
art
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Mendel is right; Lamarck is wrong.
Environment can influence the appearance of hair color in a specific bear, but it can neither determine nor change the genetically determined color. Period. For example, an individual bear who spends a lot of time in the sun may appear lighter through sun bleaching, but if you put that specific bear in the rain forest it would darken back to its original color.
Where environment determines color is through long-term genetic selection. If there is an advantage to the species -- not the individual -- of a particular hair color, over time the population in that area will tend to be homogeneous and reflect that advantage. Genetics always triumphs, though -- witness Kermode's Bear, which is pure white (not albino) yet lives in the deep dark rainforest of British Columbia, where one would expect nature to select for dark-colored bears, as it does in SE Alaska.
Every single physical characteristic that every living creature on this earth, including us, is born, hatched, sprouted or divided with is determined by its genetic codes, except in the case of some externally-induced malformation.
I don't mean to be pedantic, but this was cleared up a rather long time ago.
Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I'd run one of the Partition loads and not worry about 800 yard accuracy.
Seems like you are making this overly complicated, but folks do that. +1
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
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I have been out in the sun for the last month. The hair on my arms has been environmentally "changed" to light tan and even that change is probably genetically programed. Come winter it will be its natural brown. KISS. Applies to bears I'm sure and anything else genetically arranged. When it comes to physical traits you "is what you is."
Oh yea, put the right bullet in the right place and you will have a dead bear of one color or another.
Battue
Last edited by battue; 07/01/08.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Dear Abby, I live among a population of folks who are black haired to the tune of a high 90 percentage range, yet my hair remains light after several decades. What gives? signed, Confused PS, Are bears related to snow geese. Maybe you could muddy things up for us just a bit more. (Or perhaps that query itself does.)
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Darryl
There are a few notable exceptions, as I am sure you are aware... Give a flamingo enough shrimp and you get a brighter lawn ornament. Dark colored animals are uninclined to show such diet related variability... and it is a seasonal/annual thing subject to the diet during feather production.
Age also affects the color of some hair... but that usually relates to long-term mineral deficiencies (usually copper IIRC).
art
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Klik' Honky! art
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Give a flamingo enough shrimp and you get a brighter lawn ornament. Dark colored animals are uninclined to show such diet related variability... and it is a seasonal/annual thing subject to the diet during feather production.
Age also affects the color of some hair... but that usually relates to long-term mineral deficiencies (usually copper IIRC).
art Those examples merely make my point. If you deprive a shrimp-fed, deeply coral-colored flamingo's offspring of shrimp -- they would be light colored. If you deprive the mother flamingo of shrimp, but feed it to her chicks -- they would be bright coral while she wouldn't be. But the initial feather color and the ability to change color with diet are both dependent upon genetic capability. You and I are in violent agreement, my friend. Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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Darryl
I am saying genes determine the color of bear hair... Period.
Yes Genes do determine initial hair coloring that is not disputed.
MCH is contending bruins have unlimited access to Lady Bearol and change their colors at the drop of a honey bucket. Or at least decide after the fact what color they wish to be by choosing a particular habitat.
How about you let me speak for myself? I didn't answer your questions or assume what you were saying in my post. I never said they can "change their color at the drop of a honey bucket" I love how you try to spin something. niether did I say "decide after the fact what color they wish to be by choosing a particular habitat."
Which is of course a ludicrous Lamarckian thought process.
What I am saying is a combination of genes determines color. Often in color genes there is another rare, mostly unrelated gene trumping the works to produce a particular phase. Typically these genes work by disabling the color producing genes and produce a lighter color individual. Examples of this would include white labs. They have seven genes determining color in a normal run and yet a specific and generally unrelated gene can cancel the works and produce a white pup from two black parents.
MCH
You confuse the concepts of expectations and existance in the genome. Simply because the gene they thought they had isolated as phase determining proved inconclusive does not mean there is no gene determining color. Or as I read in a Heinlein novel decades ago "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
art I don't confuse anything here or spin things like you do. I don't try to put words in other peoples mouths. But I guess you enjoy talking to yourself thru other people. Also as I already stated there is a gene that is known that gives the Kermode bear it's distinct coloring. This gene has not been found in other bears. Case study of a Black Bear relocated. Local problem bear in Saco Maine. After several attemps at relocating this bear in state all had failed. They decided to relocate to I believe if I remember correctly to Idaho. Said bear was collard and released. After 4 years in Idaho bear coat is now a dark brown. Now before you jump to conclusions or put words in my mouth, I am not saying that one thing soley changed this bears coloring. My guess would be a few things, diet could play a part, Sun/heat could play a part, stress from relocating could play a part. I am well aware that genes determine your given hair color just as it does in bears. However studies have shown color phase bears are not always born that color. Matter of fact some bears have shown to take upwards of three or more years to "color".
Eat Fish, Wear Grundens, Drink Alaskan.
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Well sure, but it isn't environment making the determination on whether a whitetail keeps the dappled coat it is born with....or the kid whose hair color changes as they age.....nor would I expect that it would matter with bears, since their colors aren't normally affected by external exposure to minerals as the necks of snow geese are.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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I spent 4 years of my life studying Animal genetics. I feel relatively confident in saying that color is most definately gene related. Environment and diet certainly can effect color but genes dictate color.
color phases of bears can have several causes but I would hypothesize that its caused by dillution genes. I've not studied bears but considering that the vast majority of black bears are in fact..... black. I would say that its genetic. Now the occurance of "blonde" and "Cinamon" is relatively small I would say that its falls into the dillusion gene ratio. I have no documentation to back this up, it is simply my opinion.
Also, the changing color over time isn't all that uncommon. For example a Horse may take a year or two to "color in". I once had a black colt that turned into a blue roan after 18 months.
Last edited by shatodavis; 07/02/08.
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Campfire Kahuna
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MCH
Without going back into your posts and pulling out your direct statements I am simply saying you have got it quite wrong. As several others have pointed out animals change as they age. Some contend brown and cinamon black bears are larger than black phase bears and glacier bears are quite a bit smaller. Has more to do with age-related size...
Kodiak bears go through a regular pattern of colors as they age and most often end up an indifferent brown. You made the direct statement that something other than genes determines bear color and tried to use unnamed ADF&G bios in support. That dog won't hunt.
art
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Muledeer, I have read a bunch of your post. Have to say your knowledge and information is spot on. Yes the SE Glacier Bear is another color phase of the Black Bear. Look at the numbers of these bears they are small. I have seen many Black bears up on and around the Mendenhall Glacier and on and around the Taku Glacier. In all the bears I have seen only three "Glacier bears". While kayaking in Tracy Arm I have never seen anything but jet black Black Bears. If it were a gene it would be more dominatain in these areas. Which leads me to believe in what I have read and what my buddy has told me. That is that there is no scientific evidence of color Phase being a Gene. As I said earlier it is environment that creates the color Phasing. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that is absolute. I am saying thats what is known right now and generally accepted by Biologist and Zoologist (the experts). Me I am just an outdoor junkie clown. A C&P from your website re: Glacier Phase.....bold is mine. "While white is the rarest color phase, a very uncommon and particularly beautiful color phase of the black bear is the blue-gray or glacier bears of southeastern Alaska, northwestern British Columbia and the southwest Yukon. The undercoat of the glacier bears is a rich blue-black, while the outer guard hairs are long and white (or light yellow) with silver tips. This color variation probably evolved during the last ice age when populations were isolated along the unfrozen sections of the coastline, due to the biological process of genetic drift (random fluctuations in the genetic composition of a small population). The blue-gray color is ideal camouflage against the backdrop of frozen ice - the bears are nearly impossible to spot unless they are moving. Unfortunately, this color phase is on the decline. Immigration of non-glacier black bears and emigration of glacier bears across the now unfrozen landscape, are causing the gene frequency to be eliminated in the face of more dominant color phases, as the two mingle and mate. Just for conversation....
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Just a quick question...these two cubs, the difference in coloring is a product of the Environment not Genes? (Picture not mine) ![[Linked Image]](http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Bertram58/Cubs.jpg)
Last edited by Brother_Bill; 07/06/08.
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9.3 but don't lose your ammo cause you probably won't find any in Alaska.
Last edited by 17ACKLEYBEE; 07/06/08.
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There's more 9.3x62 ammo in Alaska than .30-06AI... I've always thought that "carry a rifle with ammo you can find easily" rubric was a pure chimera. But hey, what do you think of the genetics of those two cubs  ? Or was it something in momma's milk...? Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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