I was wondering if anyone had some advice on appropriate rifle calibres for grizzlies and/or coastal brown bears? I know that these animals range in size quite a bit - up to the salmon gorged monsters, and that it is placement and not energy that is important, but what are good calibres. I have read about guys using .338 win mags, various .375's, .416's etc. but what is a practical minimum? Would a .300 winnie or weatherby with premium bullets be a bit light? I don't want to prove something (like the guys who use .44mags for polar bears..), but I also don't want to a buy a huge cannon just to feel macho.

A study by the US Forest Service on firearms for self defense at close range found only a few suitable in practice for large bears:

.458 Win Mag with with 22-inch barrel
.375 H&H with 300-gr bullets in barrels down to 20 inches.
.375 H&H with 270-gr bullets at 2,500 fps
.444 Marlin with 270-gr bullet at 2,300 fps
.338 Win Mag with 250+ grain bullet.
.30-06 with 220-gr bullets down to 2250 fps
.30-06 with 180-gr bullets - this was the bottom end.

They tested common hunting rifles found in Alaska up to .460 Weatherby Magnum, with commercial ammunition found in stores, fired into a 50/50 mix of wet silt and sawdust, and evalutated for recoil control, followup shots, bullet penetration, retained weight, and actual incidents.

Geeman,

The outfit I worked for always suggested .30 caliber and it makes sense when you have seen the ability to soak up lead some bears possess. Since you are a non resident for the state of AK you will be required to have a guide with you in your pursuit of a brown bear. He will have an adequate "stopper" caliber so your choice of a .300 win. or a .300 Wby. seems like a very good choice, both good general purpose rounds with lots of useful apps due to the great availability of various weight .30 caliber bullets. Have a great hunt practice with your .300 whatever flavor and you and your guide will prolly both be very happy with your choice. 1ak

I used a 300WM for backing up bear shooters for years... would not hesitate on anything 30-06 or better with good bullets.
art

I think good bear guns start with the .30 06 and up through the various .30mags. Bigger guns like the .338 & .375 work great if you can shoot them. With todays premium bullets its no trick to get good penetration and performance. I have shot two moutain grizzlys..one with a .338/210 noslers and one with a .300 win./200grX. The .338 killed quicker than the the .300 but the Barnes bullet went through the chest and opened little and the bear took a while to die. (in hindsight if I busted that bear through the shoulders I believe he would have died and been anchored sooner) I have seen two coastal browns killed with .300s Weatherby and Win. and both got dead pretty fast. Both were killed with 200gr Noslers.

The main thing is bring what you are the most comfortable with and have the confidence to reallly place your shot. I think the worst thing to do would buy a new rifle for the hunt and go right to it. I would have a rifle/scope for at least two years before taking it on a brown bear hunt. As for black bears I have killed them with both the .338 and .300. They got dead pretty quick. My wife killed a large BC black bear at close range with her 7X57 mauser and 160 noslers. One shot and it ran about 30 yards. If you hit them good with any of the above you should have your bear with no problems.

have fun,

Lefty

Geeman, I know a man who lives near me who is retired from the U.S. Park Service, Law Enforcement end, who worked in Alaska for many years. He told me that he had killed 33 Grizzly bears, designated as "problem bears" over the years he was in Alaska... working mainly in Denali Nat'l Park.

I asked him what rifles he used? He said either a .350 Rem. Magnum, or a .338 Win. Mag. He said he also killed "a few" with a .30-06. Plus, he said he killed one Griz that charged him, using his S&W .44 Magnum revolver, when he didn't know the Griz was there. He said the revolver was all he had at that moment. Said it scared the Hell out of him!

All ammo was factory ammo.

FWIW. L.W.

LW
I smell some seriously sensational stretching of reality... Guy I was speaking with recently that was a bear biologist working in Denali commented on how extraordinarily rare it is for them to be forced into shooting bears in Denali. We were discussing Herrero's edits in his bear book which caused it to come up in conversation. His number was way less than your neighbor's claim and that would be assuming he shot 'em all...

Not to be a butthead, but I would be suspicious...
art

Also, the 375 was the whacker of choice in the department...

Well, FWIW, when the time comes that I hunt a brownie or griz, I will be toting my SUCKS SS in 338RUM.

I bought it specifically for that purpose in mind.

Load/bullet selection is easy......250 Nosler Partition loaded to over 2900 should do the trick. Mine shoots RL25 and the 250 NP REAL well.

Tony

Tony
Just got watch a Kodiak bear getting two Partitions delivered last week. Was taking photos the whole time, catching hot brass on the tube of my new telephoto lens... While they were 300gr, .375 bullets I suspect yours will do about the same thing these did, including a complete passthrough on a THS.
art

Sitka,

That must have been a blast to watch.

Good sized ?

Tony

Tony
Yeah, the holes were good-sized! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Bear was full-grown, sow, gorgeous hide... but probably just under 8'. Did not get a real tape on it, but it was exactly what we thought it was at almost every step.

couple of pictures here

art

Sitka, perhaps you're right, as I had no way to check it out... but he seemed mighty genuine to me. I know he was there for a long time, and I believe he was working there when it was still McKinley Park, then became Denali ... but am not sure.

Over these many years, I've got to be fairly good at cutting through b.s. hunting stories, but I could still be fooled. As I said, he sounds genuine. I'll see if I can get some more info.

L.W.

Anyone use a 35 Whelen?


Okie John

John

The Whelen, with heavy for caliber bullets, 270gr North Fork,275gr Hawk,280gr Swift A-frame, or 310gr Woodleigh, would be an excellent choice for bears.The only caveat would be to have a quicker twist rate, say a one in 14" or one in 12", but most factory Whelens have a one in 16" rate.

I find this odd, since my Browning BLR in .358 win has a one in 12" rate, but thats how the maufacturers do it. I have a Whelen barrel for my savage 110 and it has a one in 14" rate and i want to try the 270gr North Fork.

An even better cartridge would be the 358 Norma mag(338win mag necked up to 35 cal) or for real horsepower the 358 STA.

I know that Phil Shoemaker(premier bear guide) has a 35 whelen but i dont know if he uses it for back up or for hunting.

If it was me id go with a 300 win or bigger. Your weatherby in 300 is great. A friend guided for yrs and loved his 300 h&h.
Personnally ive opted for the 8mm Remington magnum. A friend got charged by a Kodiak bear and one shot was all he had, it dropped at about 5 ft from him, he had a 8mm mag. Plenty of stories like that with almost all calibers.
338 is great and ammo is always handy, same with most 30 caliber. If you have a guide with a backup rifle a 30-06 will do but id consider it the mininum.Good luck. Also if a scoped rifle i wont go for high power,but assume u know that.

FWIW:

Everything I have ever read indicates that a 300 Mag with good bullets is fine for hunting grizzlies. The guide will have a "stopping" gun.

If left to my own devices, I would choose the 350 remmington mag. Not becuase it is "better" than another caliber, but because it would be a great excuse to build a "Lion Scout."

BMT

Thankyou everyone for your replies. My planned bear hunt is still a year or two away but for me the planning is half the fun - asked this question as am planning a 'bigger' calibre addition to my gunsafe (than my 7mm-08 anyway) but since we have just bought a house I wanted to make sure it will do for my hunts in the foreseeable future - I reckon that with my 7mm-08 Kimber and a .300 or .338 I should be quite well covered - I'd like to hunt Gemsbok in Namibia and sheep and Bear in Alaska.
With similar rifles (weight and fit), what do you think the perceived recoil comparison would be between a .338 Win and .300 win or .300 weatherby? I'm reasonably slight of build but not overly recoil sensitive.

recoil is as follows: (Assuming all guns have similar stock and fit for you)

300 Win mag least

300 Wby, middle

338 Winnie, most.

If you go to Africa and AK, get the 300 Winnie. I hear that it will be just fine and will be most available.

BMT

Geeman
I have shot oryx, brown bear and sheep with the 300Wm and would never feel undergunned with it in North America.
art

I have used the .35 Whelen on Moose no bear it sure seems to whack the moose well with the 250 Speer.

Took this guy down last Sept in Yakutat, Alaska with 1 round of a 375 H&H w/ 300gr Trophy bonded Bear Claws. Knocked him off his feet at 100 or so yards from a left shoulder presentation shot. Jumped up and made 3 strides and collapased. This bear sqaured about 9.5 feet and the skull sqaured 26". Estimated weight about 900#

Okie John,

I shot through two Kudu and a Zebra with the 35 Whelen loads you got from me. A 35 Whelen with 225 grain bullets is plenty!

took a brwonie in 1995 at 45 yds with a 338 with hornady 250; it went 35 yds into the bush to die. took a brwonie at 20 yds in 2002 with a swift 250; he had walked the shore, then went into the timber. later jumped out of the woods as he worked his way toward us. master guide brad dennison said he had seen 3 hunters have nosler bullets blow up on bears & didnt recommend them; liked the bear claw & swift. my partner in 1995 took his with a 375 at 60 yards at last light; partner in 2002 took a 9 plus footer at about 50 yds with a 375 at last light..my advice---take enough gun & practice...see how fast you can get off the second shot & hit reliably with it..with shooting stix-- not from a bench rest..good hunting..hope this helps.chaz

Well, since this post seems to be slowing down, and I never tire of discussions of Grizzlies, and since I have zilch experience hunting them, would it be OK if I change the subject a bit and ask two questions?

What is the recommended point of aim on a bear, shoulder or lungs/hear?

On a charging bear, what is the recommended point of aim?

IMO shoulder shots breaking bone are the best way to go. Ideally I like to aim for the offside shoulder to get heart or lungs on the way through to it. If a shot presents at almost 90 degrees whereupon it makes sense to try and take out both shoulders with the first shot so much the better, again IMO.

Charging bear is pretty difficult as much like a really big guy they are moving far faster than their size would or should allow or is fair. My best advice is to aim for the nose head area, little low perhaps you hit chest lung/heart area, litte high perhaps spine, but if the bear gods are smiling and you are lucky enough to have enough caliber and penetration at hand hopefully the brain box, show over.

You aien't going to get through a big bears skull that easy.

I'm not sure where this idea that bear skulls are hard to penetrate came from - maybe the Lewis and Clark days with soft lead round balls - Or buckshot !!! - but I have killed a lot of really big bears, including stopping some serious close range charges, and seen many, many more killed. From my experiences any caliber and bullet combination that is appropriate for hunting them ( from a 175 gr 7mm or 180gr+ 30-06) will penetrate the skull.
I tell all of my hunters to shoot their first shot directly thru the center of the chest and to immediately follow it up with another. Then, if the bear is still moving, to try and break bone. Again, from my experience, most first time bear hunters are so excited when the time comes to really shoot I want them to have the largest target avaliable. If they can handle that then they can try breaking a shoulder, pelvis or spine. It works for me.

Was gonna answer adammurwin's response, but I can't think of too many better authorities about hunting brown bears than Phil Shoemaker. My lineage through guiding is Sandy Jamieson, via Justin Johns. I'm lucky to have spent time in the company of Joe Want, and Henry "T" Tiffany as well. It just always seemed prudent to me to take the advice of guys with way more experience, while P. Shoemakers procedure is just a bit varied from what I was taught, it is within the parameters of the same school of thought. Most of the guys that could teach Phil about bear hunting have gone to the great reward. Agreed as well that while bears have a decent skull they are not lined with titanium, and I believe I mentioned providing you have sufficient caliber and penetration at hand. Can't blame anyone for questioning my stance on bear hunting, I've been on more kills than most guys, but there are lots of guys with way more experience than my own. Shoemaker is one of them. Disagree with me all you want about bear hunting, disagree very much with Phil about the same subject and you are treading where fools go IMO. We're lucky to have guys of his experience and knowledge on these subjects to share with us.

1akhunter, Sandy and Justin are both good men, as are Tiffany and Joe. You are also correct that there is room for some dissention even among those of us who have been there. I use to argue with Andy Runyon about his opinion on light for caliber bullets killing big bears faster but always kept in mind that Andy had seen twice as many bears die as I. Joe Want is another one I look up to although I don't always agree with his opinions. We do agree on big rifles. For those of you who don't know Joe he carried a genuine H&H Royal SxS in .500 Nitro for many years when guiding on Kodiak. Last I talked with him he had a Ruger .416 Rigby. He is willing to listen to others but loves to argue and is quite a persuasive personality. All of us though have the ultimate respect and admiration for big bears.
Keep the post coming and keep the BS artists honest.

Phil,

Re: Joe "loves to argue and is a persuasive personality" that's about as kind of description put to Joe as I've ever heard. (grin) Seems you have some lessons to teach on diplomacy that we can all learn from as well. Joe does know a thing or two about hunting though. Surprised to hear the .416 Rigby has taken the place of his .500 SxS though, he always swore by that piece as bear back up. I'll never forget being at a seminar he gave and hearing him asked "How many bears have you taken personally?" His answer "None, I have no desire to kill a bear for me, I just enjoy seeing them."

BTW,

I here Tom Keirstein (sp?) is building some renown for some of the bears his clients have been taking. Hope it's so Tom always seemed like a decent guy to me.

Chaz said

Do you know if he was talking about Ballistic Tips? I've not heard of Partitions blowing up.

Thanks,

Mike

Well you boys have more experience than I do so maybe you will go through there skulls that easy.

I have met guides from all over the world who either liked or disliked certain bullets for one reason or another. However most guides are not gun loonies and one or two bad experiences with a bullet ( even if it was caused by bad shooting - which it typically is) are enough to cause them to dismiss that bullet as no good.
I have an asst. guide who doesn't want to try Barnes X bullets because another guide he works for on Kodiak "had a guy loose a bear because he was using X bullets"
Many years ago this same asst. guide had a hunter loose a big boar he had shot "in the shoulder" with a 250 gr Partition with a .338. The guide was down on the Partitions until Finn Aagaard (who was in camp at the same time) told him that if the hunter was using 250 gr Partitions he obviously didn't hit the bear in the shoulder. The asst. guide now has another dozen years of experience and prefers 300 gr Partitions in his 375 to any other bullet.
In my camp I have dozens and dozens of recovered bullets from large bears and even have examples of "failed" (ie. did not correctly open) bullets from nearly every manufacturer of expensive, carriage trade bullets but for every "failed" bullet there are so many more that worked to perfection. Shooting big game is always different - each and every time. But quality bullets are your best insurance. I am not on anyone's payroll but , like anyone else, I do have favorites as I see an awfully lot of bears killed. Nosler Partitions, Barnes X (and their variations), Swift A-frames, Trophy Bonded, Grand Slams, North Forks, Kodiaks and Fail Safes are all on my A list.

458Win, I'm honored to get advice from you but I wasn't clear on one thing.

I understand you want hunters to go for the large target on a non-charging bear, and I understand your advice that a big bear's skull can be penetrated by an appropriate cartridge with an appropriate bullet, but do you agree that the point of aim on a charging bear is the nose/head area?

Sounds like you do but I just wanted to be sure I got that right.

First off I guess we should discuss charges. I get "charged" a half a dozen times each summer while fishing. the bears are simply warning me to go away. These "charges" are supposed to be seen - that is the point - and in those times the shooter usually has time to find a point of aim IF they have handled it before and know what is going on but for some reason charging bears tend to scare most people which rattles their thinking and aiming. If one has the experience , understanding of bear behavier (they are not alot different in that respect than a stranger's dog) and presence of mind to stand their ground these confrontations can and should be settled without having to shoot the bear. I have let bears come to within ten feet of me - but they were exceptions and I felt confident of what was going on. twenty five or thirty feet is normally close enough and closer than most bears want to approach you.
Now on real charges- Many years ago I had all sorts of theories on exactly where I would shoot a bear but I have since learned that when push really comes to shove and that really pissed off big bear is only a few feet from your muzzle and coming fast any hit in the middle of the critter looks tempting and is most often the only one you can make -if that. Naturally a shot to the skull will instantly stop them but the head generally is moving and is a small target. Fortunately it is usualy centered on the animal. I still try to aim - point is more accurate - directly in line with the shoulders and hope to either hit the skull or break the neck, spine or at least shoulder.
I have also found big bore bullets tend to noticibly impact the bear more. Bears do often seem succeptible to velocity and "shock" but not always.

Good clarifications Phil, when I said aim for the nose head "point" would certainly have been a better choice of words. In a real full blown charge, there really is not much time to aim (referenced early about how fast they move in relation to their size). I am not a world expert on full blown charges, but often a bears head will be bobbing to some degree as they come at you, it would be a real mistake to be bobbing the front sight of your rifle (or handgun I guess) trying to make contact with that nose head area. If you hit the head on the upward bob ( i.e. bear gods smiling upon you) so much the better, if it happens to be at the low cycle of the bears head movement you should be in line with neck, spine, shoulder area. Depending upon the terrain and speed at which the bear is coming will influence how much actual bobbing is going on with the bears head. I've been bluffed charged several times, but have been lucky to have never had what I considered a full blown attack charge directed at me. With a little luck that will still be the story, years from now. They are a neat critter with the capacity to inflict serious damage which only adds to their appeal in my view.

And they are not always easy to stop immediately, my best pard was backing up a guy on a bear stalk a couple of seasons ago. The bear had run off a smaller bear that had run off some wolves that had killed a moose and he was guarding the kill. As they approached through the thick brush the bear must have heard them, for just as he was down on one knee instructing the hunter to take the lead position for the shot it sounded like a locomotive was coming through the alders. They both fire simutaneously my pard with his .375 and the hunter with a .300 win. mag. at point blank range. My friend believes the only reason he is not bear mauled or bear scat today is because he believes the bear thought he was hearing another bear in the brush to claim his kill (as with any good bear hunters they were stalking from downwind of the bear), he said as the bears head poked through the brush, he could swear that the bears eyes went wide, much like a humans when surprised, along with that surprise the bear hesistated just an instant, thereby saving my pards bacon.

They never did recover the bear as he got away with a point blank shot from a 300 gr. Barnes (IIRC) and whatever the guy was using in his .300. But my pard swears if they had you would see chest hair singed on the bear from the muzzle blast of his .375. We both are convinced the "bear gods" were smiling favorably upon my friend that day, a moments hesitation on the bears part is all that prolly saved him from getting steamrolled by a big bruin. They estimated it as a bear in the 9' class squared. Good discussion, Phil is not steering anyone wrong IMO and I agree with the bigger bore theory, especially on charges. In my mind there is a world of difference in what is a suitable hunting caliber for bears and what makes up a good charge stopper.

To all--

A Very interesting thread and I appreciate the comments; I've never taken a bear but would like to once. As one who may have that chance to go bear hunting in a year or two I have a ques. regarding which rifle/caliber combination of the two I have presently would most of you pick.

I have a Rem custom .340 Wea and have worked up a load with 275-gr Swift A-frames at about 2700 fps. This has a syn thetic stock, express sights, the scope is in Leup QR rings. The second is a .375 H&H but with fairly nice furniture that I'm reticent to expose to wet weather over a week to ten days but wil if that is universally the pick. I shoot both well and am not afraid of them.

Another thing I've never heard of in respect to bear hunting in NA but which you hear of in Africa with perhaps buffalo especially is the "double tap". That is the first shot is through the engine works with a premium softpoint but the second up the spout is a solid that is delivered at any angle the beast gives as it comes (charges ?) or turns to flee. What about solids in bear hunting as in the "double tap"; any application there?

George

Anyone who can sucessfully fast double tap with a heavy bolt gun has my respect. But yes I, and virtually every Alaskan guide with experience with big bears will tell you to keep shooting till they stop moving.
As for solids, I have tried them and find them of some use for a guide who might have to poke a hole thru a bruin from the rear but in practise find that the super penetrating solids like heavy Barnes TSX and Nosler Partitions typically works just as well in the penetration department plus kill faster.

George,

I don't see how you would be poorly served by either of your caliber choices. If you can shoot both equally as well, then go with what you please. My guess is a guy can tell a little difference at his shoulder between .340 and .375, but the bear is gonna have a hard time discerning which is which. I have been really impressed with the .340 in the applications I have seen it used, including 2 nice brown bears. It appears to hit hard. Good luck hope you get a big ole bruin that looks to need a haircut and has no bald spots.

Phil,

I read where Andy Runyon liked 300 grain Barnes bullets out of a "fast" 416 (like a 416 Rem) at about 2800 fps. He described the kills as spectacular. The article was from several years ago, and he said something about having killed 40 big bears with the "fast" 416s. He said the 350 grainers killed well also, but not as quickly as the 300 grainers pushed a couple hundred fps faster.

I suppose a 300 grainer from a 416 Rem is a "light" bullet for a 416, but is that what you were referring to when you spoke of Andy liking light bullets?

Blaine, Andy was certain that fast lighter bullets killed bears faster and as long as one gets a good hit I have no doubt that he may have been right most of the time. But Andy had some close calls on charging bears with his 375 so velocity alone is not the answer all the time. He really liked the 40 calibers and light rifles and bullets (maybe there was some correlation?)
I have seen light for calibers kill big bears very quickly but also seen miserable results with them as well so I prefer large caliber bullets heavy enough to give full penetration first and velocity second

I love this stuff, and it has been most informative. It reminds me of a humorous quote in a Charles Petty magazine article last year in Handgunner that went:

"It really doesn't matter what you use just be sure to lube the bullets with bacon grease so when you throw the empty gun at the bear it will stop to lick it and give you time to get away"

Phil,

What would you recommend from a 416 Rem for big bears? I am currently geting 2550ish from 350 Barnes TSX and excellent accuracy.

Blaine, I can't imagine a better big bear basher than what you already have.

Phil,

Thanks. I am a one load per gun kind of guy anyway, and that simplified things.

Now, if I can just firgure out how to keep the rounds in the magazine from having their bullets pounded deep into the cases. I am already using a Lee factory crimp die, I guess I'll have to alter seating depth so I can crimp in one if the grooves of the TSX.

That's kind of like the old joke that one hunter said to his partner, "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you!" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Phil,
I've been following this thread, and it has been most informative. I appreciate you taking the time to share your advice and experience. Thanks!

Steve

Now this is one hell of a fun and informative thread. Now, not being of a particularly sound mind, I may have enuff money to do an Alaskan hunt within a couple of years so Here is MY question---Would any of you guides consider taking on a guy who wants to use an original Sharps 45-110 buffalo gun??

Phil, I want to say you've become an absolute "must read" for me in any publication you've written for... I don't say that lightly! You've gone a long way toward replacing Finn Aagaard in that regard, though I don't think there will ever be one quite like him again... God truly broke the mold with him, IMO!

Regarding "bear medicine"... what's your take on the 350 RM? Have you watched it in action?

Thank's... great thread.

My answer to the last two questions is yes on both. The 45-110 with the original heavy cast bullets should shoot completely thru most bears so as long as the hunter can put it in the correct place I certainly would have no problem with it. As for the .350 RM, I think the state of AK still has a pretty good inventory of original Rem 600's in 350 for use by wardens. The second largest bear taken in my camp was by a Japanese women using a 350RM (it is well up in the B&C book) The great, and unfortunately late, Kodiak bear guide Andy Runyon always kept one as a camp loaner as well. The 350RM is a known and proven big bear caliber

Phil,

Thanks so much for kindly sharing your experience with us.

I hadn't heard of Andy's passing, have you considerred writing an article about him?

Andy died in a car wreck this past winter. I had been planning on doing a book on Alaskan guides sort of like Brian Hearn's book on African guides and had talked to Andy about it but waited to late. However Harry Dodge has a new book out on Kodiak guides that lightly covers Andy. Harry is a very highly knowledgeable Kodiak guide and from the little I've seen of the book I would say it should be a must read. ( I would have bought one but father's day is coming up and I am hoping a copy might appear)

Thanks for the response. I would understand very well that some may be a bit reluctant to have someone around using old guns of that type. How much penetration is wanted?? These cannons shot through bull bison over 500 yds away. I figured that would be enuff. How much should I be lookin to raid my piggybank for??

$10-12,000, plus airfair to Alaska.

That isn't too bad at all!!!! Those of you who post pics of Alaska leave me drooling. I'm sorry to hear of the untimely passing of your friend. I'll hoist a good one for him and hope he's in the hunter's version of Fiddler's Green.

I talked to Andy last fall after the USF&WS awarded guide areas again for another ten years. He told me all he wanted was a little piece of the Alaska he knew left so he could continue hunting, shooting and trapping till he passed on. Looks like he got his wish. If I remember correctly he said he had been guiding since 1948. He also was one of the very few guides I have ever met anywhere in the world that was a serious, over the top, died in the wool gun loony. He was working on a 400 Schuler for this next bear season. He will be missed.

For your buddy Andy. A toast I heard some time ago. "To all the Oldtimers. Those who were, those who are, and those who are gonna be"

DONT KNOW FOR SURE; I WAS GOING TO HUNT WITH PARTITION BEFORE HE ADVISED ME TO GO TO SWIFT A FRAME. CANT IMAGINE ANYONE SHOOTING A BALLISTIC TIP FOR BIG BEAR HOWEVER.

You're right, but as you said, the study was conducted for defense at short range and the authors specifically wrote "Most tests have been conducted at ranges of 50 or 75 yards to 300 yards or more..." and "The ballistic performance of bullets at short range is often considerably different from the same bullet at the longer ranges generally encountered while hunting."

I submit that the 300 Winchester or Weatherby are, despite their poor ranking inthe USFS study, every bit as capable, and perhaps better suited, for selection as a hunting round for grizzly and brown bears, than the 30-06 given 180 or 220 grain bullets in each.

It was a very interesting study and one the likes of which I had not seen prior. However it was intended for evaluation of defensive use inside 20 yards. I submit that rifles with higher velocities would be at a disadvantage in this arena unless premium ammunition was used. In the study they used strictly factory ammunition and, in what is typical government cost cutting, no premium bullets were used (at least, not insofar as one can tell from Table 1 in the article).

While the article by Meehan and Thilenius gives some very good guidelines there is more to consider in the hunting equation.

I submit that any rifle of 30 caliber or greater, shooting premium (TBBC, Partition, Fail Safe, Barnes, Swift etc) bullets (either handloaded or factory) at moderate to high (smokeless powder) velocities, using heavy bullets (180 or 200 in 30 caliber, etc) and given proper shot placement, would be suffifient for grizzly and brown bears.

I tend towards too much bullet and too much rifle, no matter what the game animal. I've always subscribed to the adage that you cannot kill an animal too dead. For that reason I would tend towards a rifle of 33 caliber and a 250gr Nosler Partition. I know that my 300 Winchester shooting a 180 gr Partition would be completely adequate, but I would still want to go heavier.

Knowing myself the way I do I would probably be carrying my 416 Rigby is given the chance to go tangle with Brownies.

Hell, I'd use it on Blackies too...who am I kidding. Dead is good, less than dead is very, very bad.

The link to the above cited study...

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

At the time of this USFS study, none of these factory loads with premium bullets existed. That is why they used commonly available ammunition in not-to-exotic calibers.

My .444 came from a fellow consulting engineer who automated sawmills in Alaska a good while back. Everyone carried a .45-70 or .444 Marlin as they walked through the woods. About once a year, someone had to shoot for hair, and they carried what worked.

An local retired banker who is now a busy gun writer did a study of Alaskan guides, what they used, what their clients used, over the years. He is the source of the surprising number of one-shot kills of brown bears with the .270 Winchester.

BigUglyMan is right on the money about the M&T USFS report. It was designed to test commonly avaliable rifles and ammo, AT THE TIME, for use against up close bears. M&T were not ballisticians or even particularly experienced in killing big bears Still what they provided us was a well researched and documented paper. As BUM points out if some of our current premium bullets were to be substituted for M&T's factory ammo the results (In my experience) would prove quite a bit different.

I don't think I or anyone else was saying that a bunch of newer cartridge loadings would not be on the list. I just noted how high the .30-06 RN 220-gr was in actual experience. It will still work today, and it gives some starting point for guessing, until someone works up some data for the new wonder bullets.

The same is true for the .375, .45-70 and .444. They work, so why do they work? If some new cartridge is missing what appears to be a key ingredient of reliable performance, why bother to risk your life trying it?

Lee
The "new wonder bullets" have been stacking stuff for quite some time...

If someone wants a gun with more punch than say a 30-06 but does not want a huge increase in recoil, I would suggest the 9.3x62mm might be the ticket especially as CZ are offering it in a good rifle at reasonable cost.

My only concern would be that factory ammo would not be that common in mant parts of the US, but I don't think it would be a major issue for a handloader...

The Old Man always talks about how much he'd like a 9.3x62. It'd be another fine choice.

With modern factory loads there're a lot of calibers that would be fine as well.

It's just one of those things. Ain't life grand?

Mr Shoemaker
I am sadly disappointed at your latest posts. No where did I see the 9.3 BS(that stands for Barsness-Sisk, not bull sh!# <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)
or the 9.3 Sisk mentioned. The BS will drive a 286 Partition at 2500 fps and the Sisk will drive it close to 2800 fps. Ought to be fine bear medicine. Still aint sure how bears were killed before these two fine calibers came along. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> The BS has to be better than a 9.3x62, even if it does go the same speed, cause its on a short action. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Aint you read all the stories, aka BS, on the short mags ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> The 9.3 Sisk goes faster and we all know faster is better. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On a more serious note, how about the 450 Marlin ? I think, aint sure but I think, a 450 Marlin will go within 100 fps of a 458 Win if loaded to equal pressure. I have built several in the WIn 70 short actions and they feed fine. I am going to be testing this in the next few weeks. I'm getting a 1.250 diameter barrel from Lilja, chambering it in 450 Marlin, testing powders, speed, pressures, and accuracy in the 60,000 to 65,000 psi range. Then using the same barrel, punch it out to 458 Win. Do same tests. The punch out to 458 Lott, do the same tests. I'll use the same barrel and testing equipment to see just exactly how much difference there really is in these cartridges. I plan to use 500 grain Hornady bullets in all , maybe some lighter ones if time/money permits.I could be wrong,but I think, heavy emphasis on the think, that there will be a lot less difference in all these cartridges than one might believe. Reckon I'll know soon enough. I'll keep ya'll posted.
Charlie

That doesn't sound like a lot of fun. When's Pat coming over?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Actually, I can't wait for these results. Should be quite the interesting experiment, even if I have no real reason for a .45cal rifle.

Maybe you can get [color:"red"] Clair Rees [/color] to write it up!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

pointer
I suspect I'll be buying Pat a case of beer for this one. Maybe two. A case to make him agree, then another to keep him going. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Actually, our most gracious webmaster Rick said he would fly down and help. This may not be as bad as I think it will. Dick Davis at McMillian is making a Tooley stock for me, and I told him 25 pounds wouldn't be an ounce too much. That with a 1.250 diameter barrel should add a little weight and make it a little more pleasant.
Charlie

Sounds like a blast! Pun intended.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Looking forward to hearing out it turns out. May have to get myself one of these big .45s to see what all the fun is about! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have a question not so much in regard to calibers/cartridges for the big bears but more in regard to the rifles they are housed in.

Just read Phil S's article in Succ Hunter about stainless steel vs. carbon steel and where the expensive custom "wood and blue" rifle a client had a safety that got buggered up by moisture/ humidity almost costing him his moose not to mention probably being unsafe. How often does this happen?

Considering wood and its susceptibility to moisture and carbon steel should one always pick the synthetic/stainless over the wood/blued just to be safe?

George

Not all stainess rifles are immune to rust. All will corrode, but some have internal carbon steel parts, like the Remington 700 SS BDL.

The new 700 SPS is supposed to be all stainless with coating on the external surfaces.

The Model 70 and Sako 75 are all stainless.
The Tikka T-3 is supposed to be.
The Model 70 bolt can also be disassembled without tools, in the rare event you need to (usually from blowing dirt).

Also, nylon stocks can shift if wet or really damp for a long time, because some nylons will absorb moisture. Aluminum bedding blocks solve plastic shifting problems. Fiberglass, glass/epoxy composites are stable. Cycolac is very light and stable (Steyr M Professional and SSG).

George
I have seen SS A-bolts triggers rust to inoperable status in less than a week. I did a trigger job on a SS 7 for a guy and cautioned him to hit it with dry rust-proofing (corrosion-X specifically) before going hunting... in two days his trigger was acting goofy. A week later, when he was bitching at me, we found rust build-up in the trigger housing. He tried to claim he had sprayed it, but it was obvious he had not.

SS is not rust-proof and requires just as much care as a blued rifle. I have been using blue and wood exclusively in a climate as tough as it comes and my guns look like they are hunted hard, but are not rusty nor pitted.

Wood moves when it gets wet, but it can be sealed just fine. I have only a couple SS rifles and just cannot get close to them except when things (sun, moon, stars) align just exactly right. But I cannot bring myself to hunt with plastic stocks.
art

Art--

Just remember what Dustin Hoffman's character was told at his graduation party in The Graduate - "plastics" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Corrosion-X? Hadn't heard of it.

George

I'm interested to know at what sort of ranges are brown bears shot? Is it usual to get a close shot or are they more often shot at, say, 150+ yards?
I have no idea what is normal, but I don't think I'd be interested in a hunt if the chances are I'd be doing long range shooting at a bear.
Just inquiring,
Stu

Layne Simpson did a study of grizzly and Kodial kills from the records of guides. It breaks down the range, cartridges, bullets used. It was published in a magazine article, and I think in his book on Cartridges for Big Game.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3730/is_200204/ai_n9080256/pg_2

Lessons from 85 dead brown bears
American Hunter, The, Apr 2002 by Simpson, Layne

The ranges were close, which is not surprising, given the terrain and shrubs and the habits of all bears. You are occasionally going to see a bear out West on a slope far away.

Lee,
I read that article last night. It was excellent. Thanks for posting the link.

Art, I'm glad you mentioned Corrosion X. I have a theory that AK is about the best place to test corrosion protection. So, how well does C-X work? How often does it need to be reapplied? How well does it "wear" in open areas like the barrel? My sentiment about stainless guns is the same as yours, and of my rifles but one are blue/wood (wasn't offered in blue), and most of my handguns. I'm still searching for the best weather protection w/o resorting to paint. Also, I know that wax is popular for coating the metal and wood, but how hard is it to remove down the road?
222

..or two.
For those of you who have taken or seen big bears taken with the .350 Remington Magnum a) Is the 200 grain factory load enough? Remington used to have a 250 grain load but they have not seen fit to bring it back b) I like the 225 Nosler Petition and have seen that Speer now has a 225 Trophy Bonded added to their line. Any thoughts as to these bullets. The 225 Nosler runs 2660 from a 22" barrel. I am now shooting an 18.5" M600 and just love the way the gun handles and shoots.

One of my best friends took a 9.5 Brown Bear last fall. One shot at about 85 yards from a .375 H&H using Federal 300 grain TBB. Bear went about 20 yards and piled up...

Bob

Nevermind. I ordered a quart of the stuff this morning so I'll soon know whether or not I like it.
222

Use enough gun... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Eyesore, that is a great pic!

Your signature would make me chuckle if it wasn't so true...kinda left me feeling a bit ill.

I will add that the Ruger M77 MK II (the stainless one) is very popular in Alaska, and it's all stainless. that's what i have been using here for the past ten years.

That's an article that I don't agree with. I read it long ago, and the data was collected from one guided who took notes of the bears killed with different calibers. The reason why I don't agree with it is because there are too many assumptions in regards to hunters. The most popular cartridges "with Alaska hunters" are the .30-06, .300WM, and .338WM, and every once in a while the pictures of bears killed by Alaska hunters are posted in the local papers. A great number of these bears, including the record bear killed by an Airman from Eielson AFB a year or so ago, dropped to the .338WM loaded with 250-grain bullets. There have been several large bears killed with the .338WM recently, including the one killed by a biologist during a charge a month ago. Last year there was another bear killed during a charge by a moose hunter; this guy was using a .338WM with 250-grain bullets. A couple of years ago a bow hunter killed another large bear during a charge; he dropped the bow and grabbed his .338WM and killed it with a lucky shot (didn't have time to aim his rifle, but broke the bear's neck). A guy from Anchorage in the late '80's killed three grizzly bears he got too close to when they were feeding on a moose carcass. This guy killed the three bears, the last one at point blank through the head. The fourth bear ran.

The story may be true in relation to hunters coming to Alaska from the lower-48, but not to Alaska hunters. In fact, the three cartridges I mentioned above, not necessarily in the order listed, outnumber all other cartridges by quite a large margin, and these are the ones Alaska hunters use the most as "all purpose" cartridges. Now, guys from the lower-48 may use all sorts of cartridges, including the ones mentioned in the article, and it's true that quite a lot of these hunters may in fact NOT bring to Alaska old firearms they re comfortable with, but new ones, while .375 H&H hunters may be very familiar with the rifles they take all over the world.

My point is that for those who plan to hunt Alaska bears, the best idea is for them to ask the guide (not the outfitter) what gun they should bring. More than likely the guide will tell them to bring the gun they are most proficient with, with the best and most appropriate ammo/bullet combination for the task, and cartridges from the .30-06 as big as they can handle.

Here is the story about the biologist who shot and killed a large bear recently. Please note that you may have to register to read the story, but the registration is free (I never give then the correct information, but that's me):

http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/062605/loc_20050626010.shtml