Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Alaska Appropriate calibres for Grizzlies and/or Coastal Brown Bears

At the time of this USFS study, none of these factory loads with premium bullets existed. That is why they used commonly available ammunition in not-to-exotic calibers.

My .444 came from a fellow consulting engineer who automated sawmills in Alaska a good while back. Everyone carried a .45-70 or .444 Marlin as they walked through the woods. About once a year, someone had to shoot for hair, and they carried what worked.

An local retired banker who is now a busy gun writer did a study of Alaskan guides, what they used, what their clients used, over the years. He is the source of the surprising number of one-shot kills of brown bears with the .270 Winchester.

BigUglyMan is right on the money about the M&T USFS report. It was designed to test commonly avaliable rifles and ammo, AT THE TIME, for use against up close bears. M&T were not ballisticians or even particularly experienced in killing big bears Still what they provided us was a well researched and documented paper. As BUM points out if some of our current premium bullets were to be substituted for M&T's factory ammo the results (In my experience) would prove quite a bit different.

I don't think I or anyone else was saying that a bunch of newer cartridge loadings would not be on the list. I just noted how high the .30-06 RN 220-gr was in actual experience. It will still work today, and it gives some starting point for guessing, until someone works up some data for the new wonder bullets.

The same is true for the .375, .45-70 and .444. They work, so why do they work? If some new cartridge is missing what appears to be a key ingredient of reliable performance, why bother to risk your life trying it?

Lee
The "new wonder bullets" have been stacking stuff for quite some time...

If someone wants a gun with more punch than say a 30-06 but does not want a huge increase in recoil, I would suggest the 9.3x62mm might be the ticket especially as CZ are offering it in a good rifle at reasonable cost.

My only concern would be that factory ammo would not be that common in mant parts of the US, but I don't think it would be a major issue for a handloader...

The Old Man always talks about how much he'd like a 9.3x62. It'd be another fine choice.

With modern factory loads there're a lot of calibers that would be fine as well.

It's just one of those things. Ain't life grand?

Mr Shoemaker
I am sadly disappointed at your latest posts. No where did I see the 9.3 BS(that stands for Barsness-Sisk, not bull sh!# <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)
or the 9.3 Sisk mentioned. The BS will drive a 286 Partition at 2500 fps and the Sisk will drive it close to 2800 fps. Ought to be fine bear medicine. Still aint sure how bears were killed before these two fine calibers came along. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> The BS has to be better than a 9.3x62, even if it does go the same speed, cause its on a short action. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Aint you read all the stories, aka BS, on the short mags ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> The 9.3 Sisk goes faster and we all know faster is better. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On a more serious note, how about the 450 Marlin ? I think, aint sure but I think, a 450 Marlin will go within 100 fps of a 458 Win if loaded to equal pressure. I have built several in the WIn 70 short actions and they feed fine. I am going to be testing this in the next few weeks. I'm getting a 1.250 diameter barrel from Lilja, chambering it in 450 Marlin, testing powders, speed, pressures, and accuracy in the 60,000 to 65,000 psi range. Then using the same barrel, punch it out to 458 Win. Do same tests. The punch out to 458 Lott, do the same tests. I'll use the same barrel and testing equipment to see just exactly how much difference there really is in these cartridges. I plan to use 500 grain Hornady bullets in all , maybe some lighter ones if time/money permits.I could be wrong,but I think, heavy emphasis on the think, that there will be a lot less difference in all these cartridges than one might believe. Reckon I'll know soon enough. I'll keep ya'll posted.
Charlie

That doesn't sound like a lot of fun. When's Pat coming over?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Actually, I can't wait for these results. Should be quite the interesting experiment, even if I have no real reason for a .45cal rifle.

Maybe you can get [color:"red"] Clair Rees [/color] to write it up!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

pointer
I suspect I'll be buying Pat a case of beer for this one. Maybe two. A case to make him agree, then another to keep him going. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Actually, our most gracious webmaster Rick said he would fly down and help. This may not be as bad as I think it will. Dick Davis at McMillian is making a Tooley stock for me, and I told him 25 pounds wouldn't be an ounce too much. That with a 1.250 diameter barrel should add a little weight and make it a little more pleasant.
Charlie

Sounds like a blast! Pun intended.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Looking forward to hearing out it turns out. May have to get myself one of these big .45s to see what all the fun is about! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have a question not so much in regard to calibers/cartridges for the big bears but more in regard to the rifles they are housed in.

Just read Phil S's article in Succ Hunter about stainless steel vs. carbon steel and where the expensive custom "wood and blue" rifle a client had a safety that got buggered up by moisture/ humidity almost costing him his moose not to mention probably being unsafe. How often does this happen?

Considering wood and its susceptibility to moisture and carbon steel should one always pick the synthetic/stainless over the wood/blued just to be safe?

George

Not all stainess rifles are immune to rust. All will corrode, but some have internal carbon steel parts, like the Remington 700 SS BDL.

The new 700 SPS is supposed to be all stainless with coating on the external surfaces.

The Model 70 and Sako 75 are all stainless.
The Tikka T-3 is supposed to be.
The Model 70 bolt can also be disassembled without tools, in the rare event you need to (usually from blowing dirt).

Also, nylon stocks can shift if wet or really damp for a long time, because some nylons will absorb moisture. Aluminum bedding blocks solve plastic shifting problems. Fiberglass, glass/epoxy composites are stable. Cycolac is very light and stable (Steyr M Professional and SSG).

George
I have seen SS A-bolts triggers rust to inoperable status in less than a week. I did a trigger job on a SS 7 for a guy and cautioned him to hit it with dry rust-proofing (corrosion-X specifically) before going hunting... in two days his trigger was acting goofy. A week later, when he was bitching at me, we found rust build-up in the trigger housing. He tried to claim he had sprayed it, but it was obvious he had not.

SS is not rust-proof and requires just as much care as a blued rifle. I have been using blue and wood exclusively in a climate as tough as it comes and my guns look like they are hunted hard, but are not rusty nor pitted.

Wood moves when it gets wet, but it can be sealed just fine. I have only a couple SS rifles and just cannot get close to them except when things (sun, moon, stars) align just exactly right. But I cannot bring myself to hunt with plastic stocks.
art

Art--

Just remember what Dustin Hoffman's character was told at his graduation party in The Graduate - "plastics" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Corrosion-X? Hadn't heard of it.

George

I'm interested to know at what sort of ranges are brown bears shot? Is it usual to get a close shot or are they more often shot at, say, 150+ yards?
I have no idea what is normal, but I don't think I'd be interested in a hunt if the chances are I'd be doing long range shooting at a bear.
Just inquiring,
Stu

Layne Simpson did a study of grizzly and Kodial kills from the records of guides. It breaks down the range, cartridges, bullets used. It was published in a magazine article, and I think in his book on Cartridges for Big Game.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3730/is_200204/ai_n9080256/pg_2

Lessons from 85 dead brown bears
American Hunter, The, Apr 2002 by Simpson, Layne

The ranges were close, which is not surprising, given the terrain and shrubs and the habits of all bears. You are occasionally going to see a bear out West on a slope far away.

Lee,
I read that article last night. It was excellent. Thanks for posting the link.

Art, I'm glad you mentioned Corrosion X. I have a theory that AK is about the best place to test corrosion protection. So, how well does C-X work? How often does it need to be reapplied? How well does it "wear" in open areas like the barrel? My sentiment about stainless guns is the same as yours, and of my rifles but one are blue/wood (wasn't offered in blue), and most of my handguns. I'm still searching for the best weather protection w/o resorting to paint. Also, I know that wax is popular for coating the metal and wood, but how hard is it to remove down the road?
222

..or two.
For those of you who have taken or seen big bears taken with the .350 Remington Magnum a) Is the 200 grain factory load enough? Remington used to have a 250 grain load but they have not seen fit to bring it back b) I like the 225 Nosler Petition and have seen that Speer now has a 225 Trophy Bonded added to their line. Any thoughts as to these bullets. The 225 Nosler runs 2660 from a 22" barrel. I am now shooting an 18.5" M600 and just love the way the gun handles and shoots.

One of my best friends took a 9.5 Brown Bear last fall. One shot at about 85 yards from a .375 H&H using Federal 300 grain TBB. Bear went about 20 yards and piled up...

Bob

Nevermind. I ordered a quart of the stuff this morning so I'll soon know whether or not I like it.
222