I have looked at a Ruger International before. I think they look "cool" but wondered about the original purpose of full-length forends. Also, what disadvantages arise?

They are good looking.

BMT

I would guess that the full length wood was simply to protect or at least attempt provide, some degree of protection to a military rifle barrel going way back.

It is a common theme lasting several hundred years right up to the M1 Garand version.

A carryove to civilian rifles with anything is "usual" so the Mannlicher short rifle with full stock was the next step and current today in the Luxus model rifles.

I see not fuction that serves as a practical gain in a hunting rifle that is cuddled most its life and rarely if ever dropped in the field.

This year marks my 45th year as a hunter and I can actually remember every fall I ever had with a rifle, so they are not really that common and my days/years in the field are excessive compared to most.

AGW

Just did a column about this for RIFLE, which will appear in a couple of months.

At one time, of course, just about all rifles had long forends. Military rifles kept them longer, because the extrs weight and "grabability" made more effective as clubs if you ran out of ammo.

Most sporter Mannlicher-style are short-barreled. The extra wood actually helps them balance a little better, especailly for offhand shooting. In Europe they are also popular for mountain hunting, where many hunters use them as hiking staffs.

John Barsness

Other than "really cool" ... I do like the additional front end weight on a carbine. A well thought out mannlicher stock allows a bolt brush gun to balance well (while looking really cool).

Note ... was typing while the "real" gun gooroo was talking 'bout the balance issue.

Proper +1 Mr. Barsness duly inserted here ...

I have read the origin came from what Mule deer mentioned: a hiking staff in the mountains (Austria). I own several full length stock carbines, and love them for woods/treestand hunting. I always thought that Mannlicher Schoenauer was the first to come up with that configuration. A "Mannlicher" stock seems to be the common name for a full length stock, like Kleenex is to tissues. An "International" stock was a term that Ruger coined. The main disadvantage that I can think of is the pressure on the barrel making the rifle a bit less acurate than a half stock gun. Sako mannlicher carbines are actually 2 pieces. The front part of the stock, is a seperate piece from the barrel band forward. My late sixties .308 Sako will hold a 1.5" group at 100 yards with factory ammo. My Mannlicher Schoenauers will do a bit better.

I think, and have always thought, the Mannlicher fore ends are ugly. Also, it just leaves that much more stock to flex into the barrel.

I think you will find full length stocks that predate Austrian influence going way back to percussion, flintlock, rope burning ignition rifles, perhaps 3-500 years ago.

Adaptation is not origination. I think JB hit it more accurately than I did as rifles in war time were indeed clubs in warfare.

I once read documents on Daniel Boone whereby it was common practice in the 1700's to consider a rifle as a single shot, litterally, where the standard practice was to aim, fire, attack and use the rifle as a club and draw either pistol/knife/ axe and begin the hand to hand fight that was inevitable as reloading was not even considered an option.

AGW

Yep. I forgot about them old smoke poles!

They look cool... Very continental..

Don

Blaine ... Ugly???

Although I don't call it "Shillelagh" for nothing ...

Has anyone who has actually used one, had a problem with the wood warping/pressure points, more so than shows up on a half-stock?

I have always heard that they will be finicky due to the extra wood, but yet everyone who I talk to who has one seems to say they shoot just fine and don't move around much.

Dakota ... Mine (7x57) shoots between .45 (good day) and .75 (bad day) for 3 @ 100 with 139 gr Interlocks seated 5 thou off the lands and 50 gr H4350.

That's be a fine looking rifle if you cut the forened back a bit..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Nah, I'd leave the fore end where it is but install some iron sights to add visual balance.

- TJM

tjm ...

We did discuss the visual balance concept at one point ... but decided to pass on a "boar tit blade" just for the sake of sake.

I have also heard or read that some indian prince requested a full lenght stocked rifle to be used as a walking stick and that had something to do with the origin.

Good looking rifle..I like it.
My caliber too.
Don't pay any attention to the unitiated... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
My Dad's hunting rifles were all full stocked.

Don

Gav:

I just took another look at that photo you posted. That's a stepped, military barrel, isn't it? If so, that's nice accuracy for a short bullet in a long throat.

- TJM

Could you explain please.I don't understand the corelation between the step,short bullet and long throat.

The "stepped" barrels are all military barrels, and were chambered/throated for full-patch 173-175 gr round nose bullets, in the 7x57 Mauser. They also have a fast twist -- something on the order of 1-8.5/1-9 -- to stabilyze long, heavy bullets.

Although -- every deep-throated, fast-twist military-barreled 7x57 I've ever owned (3) shot well with 139 gr Hornady Spirepoints.

And I think full-stocked rifles, properly proportioned, are among the very handsomest rifles built <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Though Baron Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher most assuredly did not invent, or possibly even like, the stock design that commonly bears his name.

[color:"brown"]IMHO, the Ruger #1 International (aka "RSI") is one of the most beautiful rifles I've ever seen which is EXACTLY the reason I bought a RSI in 7x57 in August of last year.

The combination of the short 20-inch barrel and Mannlicher-style stock in the single shot rifle make the RSI look outstanding.

I've lurked in various forums both here on the Campfire and at other sites, reading the many posts other RSI owners have made concerning the controversy about whether or not the rifle's accuracy is influenced by the full-length Mannlicher-style stock. And, generally, the "vote" seems to be that the full-lengh Mannlicher-style stock does present some problems of wood warping and pressure against even the short barrel of the RSI.

During my initial trials with my first set of reloads, my best 50 yard, 3-shot group using 47.0 to 47.8 grains of H4350 in incremental increases of 2/10ths of a grain, std. Winchester primers and 140 grain Sierra, flat-based ProHunter bullet were pretty good.

The beginning load of 47.0 grains of H4350 yielded a fairly tight group with 3 shots going into just .564 inches and 2 shots going into .109 inches.

The 3-shot 47.4 grain loads shot a group measuring .522 inches with 2 rounds going into .071 inches while 47.6 grains yielded a triangular-shaped 3-shot group measuring .270 inches with 2 rounds going into .176 inches and all three shots interlocking while giving a chronographed muzzle velocity of 2578 fps.

The 47.8 grain 3-shot group measured a .6 inch group with 2 shots going in .136 inches with a chronographed muzzle velocity averaging 2602 fps.

Groups using more powder didn't do quite as well, but were still very respectable.

Oddly enough, the maximum load (50.0 grains) of H4350 behind a 140 grain flat-based bullet (a Sierra ProHunter in this instance) gave one of the best 3-shot groups of the day measuring just .407 inches with 2 rounds going into .203 inches and all three round's bullet holes touching with two rounds inter-locking. However, the rifle's recoil was noticably higher than the other loads, but the cartridge case showed no high pressure signs.

This would be my "hunting load" if I were to use the RSI for hunting, but I doubt that this rifle will ever "see" the woods. It is just too pretty.

I didn't chronograph all the loads. However, I'd guess that the maximum load of 50.0 grains of H4350 behind a 140 grain Sierra flat-based ProHunter bullet sparked by a std. Winchester large rifle primer in "accurized", once-fired Remington cases would probably chronograph at about 2750 fps since 49.4 grains of the same powder using the same components yielded three chronographed muzzle velocities of 2708, 2704 and 2706 fps for an average M.V. of 2706 fps with a standard deviation of +2 fps and -2 fps.

The obvious "sweet spot" using the above components, seems to be in the 47.0 to 47.8 grains of H4350... centering at the 47.6 grain load. However, I have 4 other brands of primers to test plus 3 other bullets and 4 other powders.

Perhaps there's a different combination out there that is even MORE accurate than these. More testing will begin after te weather gets better in the Spring.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

They kill deer well too ..............

[color:"brown"][b] Very nice buck... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That is a pretty rifle! Is it a chromed 77? I was concerned about accuracy issues when I got my no. 1 rsi in .30-06. What finally sold me was Muledeer's excellent article in Rifle mag. and the fact that they are great looking. My gun as no problem shooting well under an inch with the two loads I've tried so far.

As far as full length stocks go, they're very beneficial in battle. The provided a heat shield so men didn't burn their hands after putting all those rounds through guns. I've seen wood smoke on repro muskets at civil war reenactments. That's a good clue that it's time to fall over dead for awhile!

My son and I both propose, from years of using them while sheep hunting, that full length mannlicher stocks and those with schnabble forend were adaptations of mountain hunters rifles so they could be used as staffs when climbing.

One of the prettiest full stock rifles I have seen. Made by Duane Wiebe. I only wish it were mine. Actually I wouldn't mind the deer either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I picked up a small ring Brno earlier this year and it is a pure joy to carry and shoot. Can't say that the full length stock has any practical advantage, but I sure do love it.



It was 3 for 3 on some Ga does.

Weagle

Idared,

You got any specs on that rifle? Very awesome rifle. Always wanted a Mannlicher. Next project for sure . . .

I'm curious- how is yours bedded? I'm working on a rebuilt M-S 6.5x54 which has some accuracy issues. (It was rebarrelled by a prevous owner and given an "iffy" bedding job.) I've reinforced the forearm with an epoxy-embedded carbon-fibre rod and am free-floating it, possibly with a contact point behind the barrel band at the muzzle. Another post in this thread mentions fiddling with loads to find a "sweet spot." Possibly Mannlicher-stocked rifles are a little more finicky in this respect?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Stuart

My tang-safety Ruger 77 RSI .308 required some relieving of the wood under the nose cap, to keep it from stringing shots. It will now shoot honest sub-moa 3-shot groups, with Re15 and 150 gr Hornady Spirepoints. It will not come close with any bullet over 150 gr, so I'm thinking the barrel is more touchy about resonance with the wood and nose cap. I'm tempted to drop it in another stock (temporarily! horrors <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />) to see if there's any truth to that thought. (Maybe I can get Steely to loan me a McSwirley. Wouldn't that turn a swan into an ugly duckling <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />?)

The 7x57 RSI I used to have was the most accurate #1 I've ever owned, out of half a dozen or so, straight out of the box.

I wonder if the MS Custom from Remington has bedding issues? I would hope not for $1500. I would love to get one in .257 Roberts. Anyone shot one from Remington Custom shop?

Phil, I came home after hearing you and Taj mention that in one of our lengthy (and sometimes late) conversations in Orlando, and kind of confirmed it in my collection of literature on German guns and hunting. Found a few photos of German and Austrian hunters doing exactly that!

Will be in Reno Wednesday evening, Thursday, Friday and Saturday morning, so we should have an opportunity for even more theorizing.

JB

If I remember right it was built from a G33-40 Mauser action and the caliber is 7X57 by Duane Wiebe.

Other than that I don't know any more specifics. I saved the photo because I think it is one of the nicest mannlichers I have ever seen.

Maybe it is just me, but IMO Mannlicher stocked rifles don't look "right" without iron sights.

Agreed!

+1. You gotta have iron sights . . .

+ a whole bunch on that!! It is a beauty.
My Step Dad had several full stocked rifles built when he came home from WW II, all on Springfield actions. That's where I got my love for both Springfield actions and full stocked rifles.

Don

John, just left Mark's last night. Taj and I will be in Reno Tues evening so we should be able get in some serious pontificating with an entirly different breed of rifle loonies; those who carry and use rifle daily.

Chrome, I remember your post when you bought that rifle, a 257 roberts if I am not mistaken. That's a gret looking rifle, nice GA deer too. What part of GA do you hunt?

Weagle, what cartridge is your rifle chambered to? I see you are in Atlanta, I lived there for 15 years (dunwoody) and moved to Tallahassee, FL 4 years ago. I hunt in Pulaski Co, just southeast of Macon. Nice looking rifle.

"an entirly different breed of rifle loonies; those who carry and use rifle daily"

so, what's that supposed to mean, the professional hunters or the traveling sportsmen? Certainly can not mean those of us who collect, handload, shoot and hunt as much as we can.

From what I gather, the "Weatherby Award" chasing crowd is more focused on book heads and typically only own one rifle, maybe two. My observastion of the PHs is that their guns are tools and if they work as they should, then they dont think about them much.

257Bob--

Then you have been hanging around the wrong PH's (and brown bear outfitters).....

Phil,

I will be flying in Wednesday afternoon at 3:30, and don't actually know if I'll make it to the convention that evening between getting to my hotel (something called the Celebrity Resorts Reno--maybe I'll get a look at somebody famous, though at $70 a night I doubt it!).

Maybe we should try meeting at D'Arcy's booth just before noon on Thursday. That way we can "do lunch" and talk of many things.

JB

Mule Deer,

I like and respect Phil and really enjoy his writing but I did think his comment was a slap in the face to those of us that pontificate at the campfire.

Also, with all due respect, then would you say that most PHs are rifle loonies as well, always looking for the next new thing, constantly trying different actions, cartridges and bullets, scopes just because it is something they enjoy? That's not the impression I have.

From what I have read of Phil's work, it appears that he has a keen interest in rifles and cartridges based on his experience and line of work but I would not have thought of him as a "Loonie" based on the experiences I have seen on this board.

I will admit I may have fit the description of a loonie at one time but I think I am over that. I know what I like and have experimented enough to know that it's still hard to beat a 270 win or 30-06 for general purpose stuff. I read every magazine I could get my hands on, loaded every 6.5 I could find, tried a few wildcats here and there and took a truck load of rifles to the range every time I had the chance. I have culled about 60% of the rifles from the herd and still dont have time to use most of them. I try to use a different one each weekend but that's hard enough (some still did not make it hunting this year). I 'm lucky to get a shot as I mainly guide for my young sons. I did manage to shoot one deer this year, the 7mm rem mag just happened to be on call.

Honestly, I enjoy all things rifle related but at some point, you just run out of time and energy to continue to chase the next best thing when the one you have in the safe works just fine.

What you really hope for is the time to use the stuff that you already own.

257Bob

JB, Good to hear you are going to be in Reno and hope you can stop by the Show where guys work on guns everyday but don't neccesarily hunt with them. Just show a business card at the door for a press pass, or ask for me.
I've already invited Phil & Taj to an informal 'makers get together at the 7:PM Thursday, he knows the location. Good folks, good time!

As for the topic, it's interesting to note that half-stocked guns didn't really come into favor until the late 18th century with the popularity of sxs doubles and detachable barrrel breeches. For the first couple of centuries, most long guns had full stocks.

In the US, the half stock really caught on with the Trade Rifles

Bob, Rifle loonies are rifle loonies but those of us who carry rifles daily or use them in their line of work often develop more pragmatic leanings. No offense meant.
Steve, will look foreward to getting together again.

Maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time finding any fault with Mr. Shoemaker's remark(s) on rifle loonies of different stripes.

I am a rifle looney that rarely hunts, shoot alot but I have two daughters that are 2 and 5 years old. My time is dedicated to them. They have lots of guns though. We, as a family, hunt lots of jackrabbits on our farm, but the bears and elk will have to wait a few years. I have a custom shop Remington Mannlicher Model Seven on the way for my youngest daughter chambered in .250 Savage. Some day I hope she takes a nice Arizona muledeer with it!!

257Bob--

Some PH's and outfitters are rifle loonies, some are not. And I have little correlation between "knowing" that a .30-06 will do anything needed to being practical enough to stick to one!

I think Phil was just trying to point out that even some professional hunters are rifle loonies, and that they do tend to select rifles for everyday use on certain practical needs. But that doesn't mean they don't own other rifles that aren't so practical, either!

Steve--

I had planned to get by the "other" show. Maybe I'll slip by on Thursday afternoon (after which some earlier business meetings will be done) and join the crowd that evening. My only other evening engagement is on Friday night, essentially a business dinner.

JB

westerner:

Don't hear much about those at the 'fire. I hope you'll post something about it after you've had a chance to shoot it a while.

- TJM

I got nuthin to say so here is a pic.

and another

Nice.

Details?

COOL!!!
Good Wood!!!!

Don

John, the Guild Show doesn't open until Friday at noon. Very much look forward to seeing you, Phil and Taj. Last time I saw Taj he was sitting behind his girlfriend in a Super Cup flying over my head at about 50'. Phil was right behind them piloting his Super "camper" Cub.
James Tucker, Ralf Martini, maybe Jerry Fisher & Jim Karkhuff and others will be at the thursday dinner. 7:pm at the Legacy oyster bar.
Sorry for the hi-jak!

7mm mauser on a swedish action and stepped military barrel.

likes 100 gr Hornady's

I found a Sako mannlicher in 375 H&H. Off to go pick it up now . . .

Good medicine...
STRONG medicine.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don

Good caliber!!! Da best... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don

Steve--

Will try to make it there, but if not will see you at the show sometime Friday afternoon or maybe Saturday morning.

John

Rem 7 MS 350 mag shoots 1" - 1 1/2" with 225 partitions never changed poi from year to year. Almost to purdy to take in the woods

Oh, stop !! Please STOP !!! I've been day dreaming about a Ruger MkII with an MPI kevlar mannicher stock in .... .308. You guys don't make it any easier to resist.
Some of you sure own some "droolingly beautiful" rifles. E

I love the lines on that rifle!!!!!

Don

I like the looks of the original Mannlichers, but don't care for the look except on a carbine length barrel.

What I don't understand is the explanation that the wood is there to protect the metal.....like, the metal is a lot harder than the wood, so what's up with that? I understand that in a military rifle you're protecting the operators hand from a hot barrel, but that shouldn't be an issue in a sporting carbine.

Steve, just my S.W.A.G. but the old M-S carbines were used a lot in the Austrian Alps for hunting. I'd guess that since wood will first crunch,then crush, it would protect the barrel from being bent in case the rifle went down the mountain the hard way. Sorta like how a crash helmet protects your head in a mc accident.

My love for these rifles is purely esthetics, all the way.
They look very continental, and if done right, have good lines.
I dwell in their good looks.
Other than that, they have nothing going for them w/r to accuracy. Shorts stocks win the accuracy battle every time.

Don

"Bob, Rifle loonies are rifle loonies but those of us who carry rifles daily or use them in their line of work often develop more pragmatic leanings"

I can appreciate that!

Funny how times change, I remember when I thought full length stocked rifles were ugly and would not own one. Now, after looking at that walnut/stainless ruger (and others), I have got to have one. I hope I dont cross tracks with one, that could get expensive.

Hee's a small ring Mauser in 7x57 built by Maurice Ottmar in the '90's. Never been drilled and tapped, 6 1/2 pounds.


Look forward to seeing you John.

...and a .250-300Imp. by Stephem Heilmann on a small ring Granite Mt. action.

SDH,

Those two rifles are beyond beautiful....
They're magnificent.

Thanks for posting the pix..

Don

SDH,

WoW, they are beautiful!

Do you ever run into Bruce Delorey or John Brockway in Livingston?

SDH,

Amazing rifles you got there. Very nice.

SDH

Thanks for posting that picture of the rifle Maurice did. I never tire of seeing his work and the variety of it he was able to do. He is surely missed.

SDH,
Wow! Those are beautiful to say the least. Thx for sharing and keep them coming!
I've always had a thing for the full stocked rifle and was very excited to aquire my older Sako carbine. Done right, they are elegant and useful tools. BT

I'm glad you guys like the pix, be sure that I don't own these rifle, have been privilidged to photograph them. Each is a singular piece, and a useful one at that.
Notice the "swamp" of concave profile in the forend, a very desirable feature. The Heilmann more so, but it has a bit longer barrel and Steve's own trap grip cap which is more rounded and less oval that most. It also has an integral front sight base and forend cap, absolutely "bench made".
The Ottmar rifle is one of my all-time favorites. Just holding it makes one imagine a running boar target, or that one could actually shoot running game which I am wont to do. Each of these rifles is exquisitely detailed and finely finished from butt to muzzle. The Ottmar has skeleton grip cap and buttplate in German silver(which I wouldn't have liked except for having seen this one) and a very sweetly shaped ebony schnable forend tip. And both have perfect quarter-sawn grain throught the forend which is the corrrect grain for any rifle but even more so for a full-stock.
The Ottmar rifle has limited, but tasty engraving by Rodger Kerr and the Heilmann zilch, except for maker's name and caliber.
The Heilmann rifle is supurbly accuate, according to the owner.
Heilmann close-up.

Ottmar close-up.

The architecture of the Heilmann is sleek, sharp and almost diminuative while the Ottmar is a bit fuller, rounded almost robust (although it weighs a quarter pound less).
They are each wonderful examples of delightful "using" rifles. Truly something to aspire to.

Do you give classes in firearm photography <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />? Those are magnificent firearms, but the photography is also exquisite.

Amen...I need a cigarette!

Jeff

I'm going to do a couple of columns on "what I know about firearms photography" in upcoming issues of Shooting Sportsman magazine. They will be as in-depth as I can possibly make them.
It's a bit late, but the Firearms Engravers & Gunmakers Exhibition in Reno next weekend is the absolutely best place to see this kind of work. If you can't be there this year, do think about it for the future. I'll be showing and detailing this caliber of work in the "Custom Shop" column in Sports Afield (on the news-stand now)
Another pic of the Ottmar rifle.

I might also add that the late Maurice Ottmar was one of the finest fellows I have ever had the pleasure of knowing, and Steve Heilmann merits the same catagory. Each of them has created some of the most unique, sophisticated and useful high-end custom rifles I have ever have the pleasure of experiencing.
I'm off to the show tomorrow!

So then:
The "Purpose of a full-length "Mannlicher" forend" is now clear. It is ART.
Smitty of the North

Amen...

Don

SDH,
"It's sometimes better to be lucky than to be good." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm in Reno for SCI right now; will be leaving Saturday morning. Therefore, it will require armed guards -- make that heavily armed guards -- to keep me away from your show.

If you see a bearded longhair who doesn't exactly look like he's in town for a medical or legal conference headed your way, heat the coffee up... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />.

Will those particular rifles be there?

Thanks!

Dennis

What day will you be at the Guild show?

PM sent.

Friday.

PM replied to <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

This is gonna be fun...

Sounds great.

PM answered. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The thought of using a rifle as a staff means you have the barrel down in the dirt or the barrel in the air. Which means at some time you will get the lands messed up or have the end of the barrel pointing toward someone or something you don't want to shoot. Yea, I know the gun is unloaded! I rank this right up there with skeet and trap shooters that stand around between stations with the barrel of their shotguns on the end of their foot. And "we" are trying to teach young shooters safety with lessons like this?

Geeze, Must have went right by this thread. did someone mention mannlicher stocks?





Top: Mark-X 7x57 with 2-7 vari-X
Next, a pair of 6.5 x 55's
bottom, 8x57

I gotta say it, bucktales:
You really know how to live.
Smitty of the North

...a five foot six, slim, green-eyed redhead in a little black dress.
... a mannlicher stocked 8x57 in a maple gun cabinet.

I'd dance with either and have just as much fun ( well...)

Harold

[quoteI'd dance with either and have just as much fun ( well...)

Harold [/quote]

That would really depend on the testosterone level.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don

I like to read things like the above by SDH.

Bucktales, I really dig that maple stocked Swede...

Would be about the perfect hunting rifle for around these parts...

I've got my current mannlicher at Pac-Nor getting a barrel, while I finish up some stock work on it...

The rifles I like most with Mannlicher stocks are European style classics with very trim profiles, like the Sako Riimaki (sp?) and the Mannlicher Schoenauer. The balance and handling characteristics are exquisite -- they come alive in your hands like no others around. (The Ruger 77 RSI is way out of this league.)

An unproven hunch of mine is that these lighter stocks also are more consistent in accuracy than heavier full stocks because they flex with the barrel, rather than fight it. The long full stocked, muzzle loaders of old never suffered much accuracy loss from the wood/metal contact either.

The classic Mannlicher sporter stocks however are very delicate, and expensive to replace if you can even find someone to tackle the job.

1B

Having owned full stocked rifles including the MS carbine I don't find the balance all that special at all. Not at least in what I like for balance in a woods or mountain rifle.

I find their barrels to be rather thick and the rifles to be too muzzle heavy for me to say that they are some advantage.

However its about looks and I really like the look of a full stocked carbine. Some of the Euro rifles stocks are thin at the balance point and this is something that I do like. I had a MS FS carbine in 6.5-54 MS and it had excessive headspace so I sold it off. I wish that I had kept it and solved the problem some how.

Currently my only FS rifle is a Brno and its not woods ready but it shoots quite well.

The birdseye maple one is my wife's rifle (matches her hair ). The dark picture does the swedes no justice. I'll have to take a pic in the sunlight, especially the claro stock, figure of the wood is unreal.

I have a huge thing for the "Swede," but my current Mannlicher will be a .260 due to action length issues...

Again, diggin the rifle. The Peep sights ,the stock...very well executed.

I'll add one more to the Brno 22F list. Taken yesterday with less than an hour left in the season.

Nice rifle; nice deer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Cartridge?

My favorite bottleneck....7X57 Mauser.

Good combo, and a good Buck.. Kudos!!

I am a 7x57 loonie.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don

I like them.
This is my 8X56MS.
[img][image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/catnthehat/8X56MS.jpg[/img][/image]
Just picked up an aolder CZ in 6.5X55 on a '98 action, also!
[img][image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/catnthehat/Nov.jpg[/img][/image]
Cat

My wife has instructions of what to do with my firearms once I am gone. Most go to relatives. My RSI in .308 goes with ME!! I have more accurate rifles but none that give me the pleasure in the field as this one.

Agree on the RSI,Best handlin rifle I own.Shoots more then accurate enough day in day out.Absulute pleasure to hunt with......

Terrill and bushboots,

Are your RSI's Tangs or MKII's?

Rugernut, MKII 308......2x7 Bushnell 3200