I put this in the waterfall forum , but thought I might get more traffic here:

I gave the LCSmith 20ga SxS that belonged to my mother to my 12yo grandson. He wants to take it duck hunting. Im not up to date on non-lead shot. Is there any lead free shot that would be safe to use in this 70+ year old shotgun? thanks for the help!

Provided you shotgun is in proper working order for modern ammunition, bismuth shot is often recommend for vintage shotguns. Bismuth is softer than lead and is an excellent performer on game.

Shot ducks with my Elsie’s bunches of times. RST ammo is your friend

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1002152651?pid=168776

Discontinued. Ridiculously overpriced anyway. Kent Bismuth will get the job done nicely.

I’d worry more about gun fit and chokes when putting an older gun in the hands of an inexperienced shooter. Be sure the kid can hit with it. Missing gets old real quick, even with a classic gun.

Edited to add: I’m not a gunwriter.

How is it choked?

Have been using bismuth shot, both in factory and handloads, since 1996 in gauges from 28 to 10. It kills waterfowl just as well as lead shot (if anybody else here is old enough to remember those days), even though bismuth shot a little lighter in the same sizes, around 90% of lead, because there are 10% more shot in the same charge.

It also generally patterns much like lead shot in the same chokes, though some of that depends on the wads used in the ammo. Practicing before hunting with lead-shot equivalent loads helps a lot, and costs less.

Bought a case of Kent 2-3/4" bismuth ammo loaded with an ounce of #5s a couple-three years ago (2-3/4" because many of our 20s have that chamber) and it has worked very well on both ducks and pheasants.

BOSS AMMO

Bismuth is your huckleberry.

https://bossshotshells.com/

I've killed a gazillion ducks and geese across the way on Maryland's Eastern Shore during my heyday in the 2000's and teens. 90% of them were brought down with LC Smiths, and all were killed with either Bismuth or Nice Shot handloads. God I miss Nice Shot, but Bismuth is about as good.

While most of my gunning was with an LC Smith Ideal grade Longrange Waterfowl model, a couple field grade guns barked too.

Standard load: 1 1/8oz. #2 bismuth at 1200fps for geese, 1 oz. #6's for ducks, in 12, 16, and 20 gauges. 2 3/4" hulls and target wads. I found that the birds aren't as armor plated as people would have you believe. Good tight chokes to present a dense pattern, and the patience to not sky bust them are key. My waterfowl gunning buddies scoffed at my approach while insisting nothing less than 3" magnums would do. After a few years of me outgunning them they started transitioning to my way of thinking, and everybody's scores went up.

We would get bored with conventional approaches and cooked up a little game: kill at least one Canada goose with every gauge shotgun per season from 10ga. down to .410. I performed that trick five years in a row. The 28's and .410's were a bit dicey but if you kept a cool head and held fire until the bird was around 20 yards or less away down they'd go. Putting out range stakes between the blinds and the dekes helped a lot. For that I employed my 28 gauge O/U skeet gun choked skeet 1 and skeet 2, and a .410 Winchester M42 I borrowed choked full. 10 gauge was another borrowed gun, a pre-1900 Remington double, I forget the model. All done with bismuth handloads.

Good stuff!

41

A 20 LC is going to kick like a donkey shooting waterfowl. Just a thought.

Er, uh, why?

I don't shoot shotgun a lot, anymore - but am waiting on delivery of a 20 ga "Elsie" Field Grade, DOM 1930.
Will I need to stay with 7/8 oz loads, or will the little shotgun handle 1 oz loads?
Any surprises I should be aware of?

My question as well....

Mike S,

Am failing to find any bismuth 20-gauge loads in 2-3/4" shells on the BOSS site. The OP's gun probably has 2-3/4" chambers, unless somebody had them lengthened to 3", which would be a pretty dumb thing to do--though am sure it has happened.

Looks like 7/8oz 2-3/4” #5,#6, and #7 in BOSS now

This is the way.

Thanks, finally found it.

But dunno what it would do that the Kent loads wouldn't--and as noted earlier their 1-ounce 2-3/4" load of #5 Bismuth has worked great on both ducks and pheasants for us. Bought a case for $225 not long ago....

Because LC Smith are normally lighter than the average when it comes to doubles. Physics. Id love to know how much it weighs, likely less than a Fox or Parker or other era double gun. To each his own.

MD, I doubt the BOSS would do any better than the Kent. I only responded because I had just been looking for an alternative source since my local shop hasn’t had any Kent in stock and my supply is low. I haven’t personally run any BOSS shells, mostly Kent.

Farming,

Thanks for the response.

Yep, these days we often have to pay for what we can actually get. (Luckily, I also still have a fair supply of Bismuth 6s and 4s for handloading....)

John

I got to thinking (dangerous, that) and wondered if I had any bismuth shot left behind after I divested myself of a sh*t ton of shotshell components and presses. (Kept a Mec 600 Jr. 12ga for "emergencies".) Lo and behold there was an unopened pack of 1.5 pounds of bismuth #2's gathering dust. Came from Ballistic Products a few years ago. I'm not gonna use it so if somebody here can make use of it PM me and it's yours for cost of postage. Merry Christmas.

I'll take you up on that! It works very well in my Armas Erbi 10-gauge magnum.

It's yours John. I have your address, it'll go out Monday.

My daughter shot the crap out of Canadian mallards this year with an ounce of bismuth 6’s in her 20. Even a big Canada goose fell dead when it strayed too close. We do shoot over decoys and are fairly conservative in choosing our shots. I’ve still got some of the old green boxed shells. Ducks hate ‘em.

I’ve always shot factory loaded bismuth but am starting to run low on a few of my favorites. I prefer loads a bit slower than what’s commercially available now. I may resort to loading to get what I want. Like you, I divested of most of my shotgun loading stuff. I also did hang on to a MEC 600. Hmmmm…… 🤔

thank you gentlemen, for your inputs and insight! very helpful,

I have a Fausti 28-gauge SxS that weighs 5 pounds 2 ounces, and have used it quite a bit with Winchester's 1-ounce load loads without experiencing any pain. The pretty much maximum shot charge for 2-3/4 inch 20-gauge bismuth ammo is an ounce. Kent's load is rated at 1200 fps, and Winchester's 1-ounce 28-gauge load 1205.

Without a doubt, a Fausti 28 ga sxs has to be one of the coolest sxs made. Do you have any pics? Haha
Mickey

Yeah, I do!

That’s a little beauty😊

Nice....very nice. Single trigger? Haha

I bet she's a wonderful shoot!

Yep!

Fausti sent to to me for a magazine review, and after shooting the little gun a lot I liked it a LOT. Generally I prefer two triggers on double-barreled shotguns, due to often finding them more reliable than single triggers. But during a lot of test-shooting could NOT get this one's trigger to fail--and a dozen years later still haven't. I could also shoot it well, thanks in part to the 28" barrels, which help it swing well even though it's so light.

So I asked what the writer's price was, which is generally around wholesale. Even then it obviously wasn't inexpensive, but have never regretted buying it....

I got there late this morning. Was to meet a buddy and his son to hunt ducks and they were already setup. I was suiting up when I heard the BOOM BOOM quickly followed by a POW POW. Got to the blind and seems that junior connected with two mallards using a 28 that dad had missed with the 12. Did I mention he was using #6 steel? Shook me right to the foundation it did.

I have never shot a 28 of any kind. I have SxS in 12, 16, 20 and 410.e Will be adding a 28 to
my bucket list!!

I'll let you know what I find!

As many people have noted, the 28 tends to be far more effective than it's bore-size or loads suggest. In fact did an article for Handloader magazine in the April 2008 issue titled, "Why the 28-Gauge Works So Well."

It included several handloads, of course, but the basic premise of the article was to start using the 28-gauge during the 2007 Montana upland-bird season--and continue using it until it failed to work. This is because our upland season lasted from September 1st through December, and as the season went on the birds tended to flush further out, and be harder to kill due to thicker feathers--especially after pheasants opened in mid-October.

Turned out I never did put the 28 away, and killed wild rooster pheasants regularly out to 40+ yards. The longest kill (and shot attempted) was a mature male sage grouse at 47 yards.

Among other things, I pointed out that while many hunters think the 28 is only good for smaller birds, larger birds tend to "catch" more shot. But the 28's shot string, as many have pointed out over the years, also tends to be shorter than in other gauges (or the .410 bore) so more shot arrives around the same time, putting more in the bird.

Yes and you are not 12. A break action sub 6lb gun on a duck hunt MIGHT not be the perfect combo for the purpose for an inexperienced shooter. Just my experience. The non tox loads will certainly help as opposed to hot steel shot. My primary upland gun is a 5lb and change 28ga Weatherby. Love it for that purpose. I'm sure it will be fine for a hunt and much fun for the youngster.

Where did you get that? I checked ammo seek, and they only showed it at bass pro/cabelas for $450.

This was in the summer of 2022, from Mack's Prairie Wings (https://www.mackspw.com/). It might have even been a sale, but don't remember. They don't have any now.

I tend to be one of those who check on ammo availability and prices frequently, and buy before I need it. (Also have plenty of shotshell handloading stuff, in several gauges, including bismuth shot in various sizes.)

Thanks for the reply. I do the same with ammo, but I just got back into waterfowl hunting, and haven't bought non toxic loads for decades.When they mandated non toxic shot, I decided to send more time hunting other stuff. But recent job changes left me with more time, so I decided to start hunting ducks again. I picked up a case of boss's ammo, but it was a lot more than $225.

The other thing that's been happening is the price of bismuth itself has been going up and a down rapidly for a while now!

Gosh, as pretty as a "speckled pup" !!!

Have been hunting upland birds with an old 12 gauge Remington 32. Great old shotgun in production from 1932 - 1944. Have to use non-lead shot where I hunt, and turned to bismuth for this one. I've been using Federal 2 3/4" shells with 1 1/4 ounces of #5. First time I used it on pheasant, I was quite pleased with how hard it smacked those roosters!

Also my son has been using a little 28 gauge CZ side by side with Kent steel shot and is doing very well with it. It's a pleasure to see the young man enjoy hunting with the doubles.

Guy

Federal makes the 3" 20 1 1/8oz load #5's in there meateater series don't know if they are availible in 2 3/4". The Kent 1 oz 16 ga bismuth loads are the tits..mb

Not true at all. Elsie’s weigh about the same as every other double out there, maybe more. I’m currently trying to talk myself into a 1920 Specialty grade 20 that weighs 7lbs 2oz. I currently have a 1923 Trap Grade with 26” barrels that weighs 6lbs 4oz, and a 1942 Field grade that weighs 6lbs 10oz. The Field Grade weighs more than my Griffin and Howe Round Body 12 Guage.

To the OP. Make sure you run the serial number and know exactly when the gun was built, and or have the chambers measured. Smith 20’s had 2 1/2” chambers until 1936, unless it was stamped on the gun 2 3/4”. After 1936, I don’t believe they stamped them with the 2 3/4”. My 1923 Trap Grade has 2 1/2” chambers and my 1942 Field Grade has 2 3/4” Chambers, neither are stamped.

Sherman Bell wrote extensively on double guns and even Damascus barrels. He found no evidence of pressure spikes using plastic 2 3/4 hull loads in 2 1/2 inch chambers. YMMV. These were published in the double gun journal quite a few years ago. He was using a pressure lab to establish his baseline and a gun fitted with a piezoelectric transducer to experiment extensively on loads suitable for old doubles.

Just checked my records with the L.C. Smiths I've owned--and I keept good records of both my present and past guns, including not just weight but other details. Compared the Elsies with the other American doubles from the same era such as Foxes ans Ithacas. Also did not find any significant weight difference in guns of the same gauge and barrel length.