Caught your recent YouTube interview w/ Ron Spomer.

Very interesting and insightful, thank you for your time and candor.


The discussion on the 9mm v. Brown Bear was especially fascinating.
(as well as your opinion on good heavy bullets, placed well, from common caliber rifles)

Got me to thinkin', and, in turn, if you can spare the time, an interest in your opinion.


Was a time, here in the Louisiana piney woods, that a .357 Mag. w/ 180 gr. Sierra TournamentMaster truncated FMJ was carried for Hog(300+lbs.) and panther defense.

And maybe the occasional Black Bear.


Then came across a 5.3" .357Sig conversion Bbl. for the Glock G23 .40., and a pile of this Hornady Custom 147 gr. XTP ammo, dirt cheap.

The bullets are non-catalog, and are constructed like revolver bullets, w/ a roll-crimp, and designed for ~ 1.5x expansion at magnum revolver velocity.

They clock ~ 1325 fps out of this Bbl. are very precise, easy to shoot accurately, and the pistol holds 14 of'em - while being significantly lighter than the revolver it replaced.


This is an interesting vid, 5" Bbl'ed pistol test, including a gel test w/ a combination of denim and MDF intermediate barrier.



How do you think it stacks up as a bear round?

(Though Black Bear is probably the more reasonable concern, and Grizzly a distant second.)


Know you are busy w/ your approaching Season, so, again, if inclined, at your convenience.



B/RE:

GR

Every hunter should see this video with Phil.

Placement & Penetration trump all. That’s why elephant hunters use solid bullets .

When I was testing the 9mm Buffalo Bore 147 gr bullets I also tested a 30 Tokarev like I carried in Vietnam , my 357 , my S&W 44 Mtn Gun and a 475 Linebaugh. All of them gave adequate penetration to reach the vitals of the massive bears I deal with .

Best post of the thread! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

I would add the 10mm Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman Load and the 357 Sig 125 gr load to the list. Both have penetrated many large hogs here at the Ranch.
Rarely “catch” one of the hard cast 10mm bullets in a hog. They almost always exit.

I’ve also used the 30 Tokarev or 7.62x25 quite a bit with the S&B FMJ factory ammo out of a surplus CZ 52 pistol I bought years ago for $100 bucks. Heck of a round!
Reminds me a lot of the 357 Sig round

I love my .357 Sig. One of the best purchases I ever made. I spent the extra $150 and got a .40 S&W barrel for it so I can shoot cheaper ammo at the range.

Being interested in such things. I’ve watched it read about ever bear incident I could find. I can’t recall anyone carrying a firearm of any type to be harmed by a black bear. I imagine it’s happened, but it can’t be very frequent.

I think I’d rather confront a black bear while packing a .38 or 9mm than to confront a grizzly while armed with a rifle. I live in “bear country” here in MI. I often go about armed with only a 2 inch pocket knife. I actually do carry a firearm more often now, but animal attacks remain low on my list of worries.

It is amazing what goes thru a persons mind when being "charged". One day my son and I were fishing on the Russian River, he was about 12 or so. A black bear was walking alone the shore line looking for scraps when a couple of guys burst thru the brush and startled the bear. He was pretty spooked and immediately turned and ran. He hit the boardwalk and was headed straight to my son and I. Even though I was packing a 4 inch S&W 500 the only thought in my mind was to put my son behind me to offer some protection. I would of been completely justified shooting the bear DLP and I never even considered pulling out my revolver.
Things happen quickly. And unless you have the years of experience a quality guide has (like Phil) you never know what you will do.

'
Probably a good people shooter with those hollow points.
I would want a hardcast bullet if I was going in bear country.

Can someone post a link?

Just go to youtube and use search terms Ron Spomer Phil Shoemaker.

Great video! Just watched it and it was an hour well spent. Thank you, Garandimal, for calling my attention to it and thanks to Mr Shoemaker for sharing his experiences and wisdom.

All;
Morning all, hope you're well.

Ask and it shall be given - as it were and so to speak.




Indeed it's a good one.

Best to you all.

Dwayne

I suppose Phil’s post is description enough, but is there a transcript available or TLDW for those of us who aren’t interested in a YouTube video? I’m too old for this video schist.

You're gonna have to settle for his post but your virtue signal is flashing 5X5.

Always funny how a few are not interested in actually hearing what others have to say, especially when the other is a legendary subject matter expert on the subject matter. Phil did a great job.

I watched the whole thing and found it very interesting, but then I like to learn stuff and how often can one listen to a guy with 45 years of bear hunting talk about bear hunting and bear defense.

As this is a technical type forum I did notice Phil said the BBA 9mm 147gr ammo was going 1300fps. That's quite a bit faster than on Tim's site and a 147gr @1300fps is pretty hot for .357 Sig much more so for 9X19mm even in +P dressing.

Phil's handguns and handgun wisdom are interesting because of who he is and how he's lived his life but THIS is Phil's gun:



He wrote an article about it for John and Eileen's Rifle Loony News that is one of the best things I've read about a rifle ever. He's such a unique dude and has lived this life that strikes such a chord for guys like us. The ugliest, most utilitarian, most effective weapon ever which he builds, whittles, saws, fabricates to work with his own personal physicality in the context of the physicality of a charging, wounded grizzer bear looking to kill him. It's pure poetry in the form of a rifle. Real poetry. By a real poet. I mean, look at that thing! Is that a piece of inner tube for a scope cover? And all that fiberglass and bondo repairing is him making that stock fit him perfectly. Beautiful.

Hat off to you, Mr. Shoemaker.

Indeed it is! One of, if not the best scope covers available. I've used them for about 60 years.

Mr. Shoemaker`s article >
He wrote an article about it for John and Eileen's Rifle Loony News that is one of the best things I've read about a rifle ever.


which one is that on Rifles and Recipes LoonY news ? ,thank you Pete53

"Rifles that Work for a Living" in the August 2011 edition - Vol. 3 issue 2

John, I did give the wrong velocity for the BB 9mm. I had placed a box of 357 BB ammo on top of my 9mm stash and simply looked down and read the velocity of the 357. My mistake. The 9mm 147 gr bullets are running right around the listed 1100 fps

I also wrote a feature in the 2018 Gun Digest on the entire episode and included numerous photos

enjoyed watching that Mr Shoemaker. Always a wealth of knowledge.

.

Why would he ask for a transcript if he weren’t interested in Phil’s thoughts? Maybe he’s hearing impaired. Maybe he doesn’t care for the interviewer. Maybe he just likes reading. That doesn’t sound like virtue signaling to me.

You hit a lot in the video so a minor tech mistake is understandable and takes nothing from the account. I read the account/saw the pictures previously and it seems the story has stayed very consistant.

That was no midget bear and winning that fight with a 9mm is litterally "Legendary".

Thanks for taking the time to do the interview as it was well worth the time to listen.

I’ll never hunt big bears and I’ll never meet Mr. Shoemaker but I certainly enjoyed this podcast. I’ve watched it twice and everyone I’ve sent it to has enjoyed it.



Thanks for posting the link

I have chrono'd the same Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman +P ammo out of multiple guns and got the following muzzle velocities using a Labradar, except as otherwise indicated:
Glock 19, Gen 4 (4 inch barrel) using a Chrony at 10 feet: 1058 fps, ES 28, 5 shots
Glock 26, Gen 4 (3.5 inch barrel) using a Chrony at 10 feet: 1036, ES 13, 5 shots
Sig P365 (3.1 inch barrel): 1010 fps, ES 40, 10 shots (Mackay_Sagebrush’s Lost River Ammunition Co. version of the same load, 989, ES 22, 5 shots)
Sig P365 XL (3.7 in barrel): 1066, ES 23, 5 shots (Lost River version of the same load, 1061, ES 20, 5 shots)
Ruger PC Carbine 1267, ES 19, 5 shots (Lost River version of the same load, 1281, ES 15, 5 shots)

I made up a multi-media torture test, and the ammo out of the Carbine did substantially better than out of the P365 XL. That should not be a surprise. But, we have actual proof that it works in a 4 inch barrel (per S&W Model 39 specs) when necessary, nonetheless! So, it doesn't matter.

I really appreciate the interview, Mr. Shoemaker!

Thanks Phil, will check that out. And thanks for all you contribute to the community.

This article confirms your point.


https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/update-handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attack-93-cases-97-effective/

Out of 93 incidents reported handguns stopped the attack 97% of the time. Didn't necessarily kill the bear but stopped the attack. This is ALL handguns with all types of ammo used. If you read over the article 44 mag was probably most often used, but there are plenty of 38's, 357's 9mm's, various 45's 40's and 10mm pistols used. Even a few 380's and 22's. And not just black bear, but the larger species as well.

I very much enjoyed that, thanks for sharing.

A wonderfully pragmatic approach from a wealth of experience.

I side with prairie goat -

I can read 5 times faster than people on a video talk, and I don't miss words when I'm reading like I do when I'm listening (especially with all the years of hearing damage I've accumulated).

I can also instantly go back over a passage a few times if there's something I didn't understand, rather than hitting the rewind button and hoping I didn't go back too far, or more frustratingly, not far enough.

What a time waster to watch video compared to reading!

Some of you won't understand this viewpoint, but those of you who watch movies with the captions on will probably stand up and shout YES!

As stated earlier, I live in what passes for “bear county “ down here. With the big swamp next to my house, I’m probably within a half mile of a black bear most all the time. Any gun seems like more than enough. In fact I’m much more likely to succumb to a bee sting or lightning strike. I’m usually packing heat, but not primarily for bears.

My hat’s off to the guys that coexist easily with brown/grizzly bears. I get to AK occasionally and my comfort level around those things is pretty low. They seem to like being around me much more so than I do them.

There isn't a spitwads worth of difference in that 9mm load vs. 357 Sig load. Try a hardcast in either one.........

Your mind will be blown when you learn that the video posted was captioned and it can be played at fast speed plus it can be paused and backed up to replay anything you struggled to comprehend.

Ad in the ability to see the experts non verbal comunications and anyone who claims a simple transcript it a better medium for comunication most likely is themselves a poor communicator.

Phil did write the story up with pictures which is also very much worth the time to read and view. I sort of thought everyone who had an interest in the subject matter had already seen the article as it was posted here a few times.

30 seconds on a search engine provided multiple returns. Here is one of many with pictures for those who are afflicted with ADD and much to busy posting drivel on the CAMPFIRE to actually watch the interview. Good luck.

Shoemaker Brown Bear DLP with 9X19mm

Everyone is fixated on the caliber.
Brown bears are more " docile" then a WY/MT/ID griz
Shots thru the ribs are not the shots you are afforded if the griz is coming at you (charging)
What would have happened if the 9mm hit a rib and deflected or stopped???
The brown bear didn't stop right away, it took a while then meandered off. Not a good plan if the bear is separating your skin from your muscles while you bleed out.

Carry enough gun
Know how to use enough gun
Be able to hit a moving target

I would guess that Mackey Sagebrush cooks up some very potent hard cast rounds for various handguns, that would be effective on bears.

L.W.

He did point out that the 147 gr hardcast from a 9mm gave virtually the same penetration as any other handgun round that he had tested. I've seen other test results in gel showing that bullet actually penetrating deeper than larger/heavier loads from bigger handguns. Unless I'm mis hearing something from the podcast he felt that 9mm load was as good as any other HANDGUN load in a defensive situation, bigger guns were better for hunting. He pointed out that in his testing he was able to get off 3 accurate shots with the 9mm in the same amount of time as 1 aimed shot with his 44 mag.

I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it too. Especially on bear that large. I've carried 147 gr Buffalo Bore in 9mm for several years, even before Shoemaker's bear incident, around home where black bear are common. We are planning a road trip this summer and will be camping in both Glacier and Yellowstone. While I respect Mr. Shoemaker's opinion, at this point I'd just sleep a little better at night with my 10mm loaded with Buffalo Bore 220 gr loads at 1200 fps.

And I really did enjoy watching the podcast. I would normally never sit for nearly an hour for something like that, but I enjoyed every minute.

I don’t think I would consider a 800-1200 pound bear “more docile” than a 400-600 pound bear when it is actually charging. And hoping to hit the head of a rapidly approaching bear, that is swinging his head rapidly from side to side , when your body is dumping adrenaline into your system with only a single shot from some sort of heavy recoiling hand cannon may be some peoples idea of a proper solution . But, having been killing big bears for over 40 years , it’s not a solution I would recommend .

I listened to it while I was preparing and cooking supper. I occasionally looked at it too, and actually appreciated the video. You get a sense for what a humble and knowledgeable man Phil is. When Ron asked questions, in particular about bear behavior, Phil unhesitatingly and authoritatively responded. You won't get the same degree of appreciation from reading that you will from watching and listening.

None of that takes away from the fact that you are correct. You could read a transcript much faster.

How many charging WY/MT/ID grizzlies have you seen stopped with a handgun? Just curious.

A rib is not going to stop that bullet. In fact rib splinters may help create a little secondary wounding. The bullet may deflect some, but will still find the vitals. I don't know that from shooting bears, but I have done enough reading and video watching to strongly believe what I wrote to be the case.

Great to have fact checkers...

Zero
Neighbor stopped one with a 41 mag. The other folks I know used a rifle. Still other folks never got a shot off - it happened so quick. Some never cleared leather.
You can carry your 9. I got my education from John Linebaugh. I'll go with his results of the heaviest bullet at 12-1250 fps

+1, there's no substitute for that level of experience.

30 years ago I had a Freedom Arms 454 with 4-3/4" barrel. I got quite good with it - the Bisley grip really does work if you roll with the recoil! However, thinking it through, I decided I'd rather carry something with more repeatability for follow-up shots, so I switched to a 4" 357 Ruger Securtiy Six with hardcast LBT's. After that I bought a Glock 19 and found the 147 Buffalo Bore hardcasts, reasoning it would be easier to hit more quickly than even my 357.

My evolution in thinking came to me through just reasoning it out. However it's far more interesting and authoritative to hear someone truly "expert" on the subject who came to the same conclusions based on real-world experience, not just guessing like I did! A really fine youtube interview, thanks for sharing your time and experience - very enlightening.

In viewing the three or four threads currently running on this subject it is quite obvious why Mr. Shoemaker has “grown weary” of all the “bear experts” chiming in with their handgun opinions.

People who wouldn’t even qualify for a fraction of one percent of Phil’s experience choose to claim they know better. Sheesh!

I hope I haven’t been one of them too much!

Well said Brad. I carried a Ruger Redhawk 5.5" barrel 44 magnum when I was in Kodiak nearly 30 years ago. If I had to go back, it'd be my Glock Model 40 10mm, or perhaps even a 20, for a little better portability. I was good enough with a no stress, controlled, first round shot with the Redhawk. Having read accounts like Phil's and engaged in a little honest self-review, I'd be much better served with the Glock.

Exactly. Don't blame Phil one bit.

Ignorance comes from lack of knowledge, very unlike stupidity, which comes from an incapacity to learn.

Another one well said.

It seems to me that the person in this thread most fixated on caliber is you. We have a subject matter expert offering 45 years of experiential wisdom who challenged the conventional wisdom, tested his hypothesis against skulls, bones, and man-made materials to the point of confidence, and then had the unfortunate twist of fate to have to prove it for real under life-threatening conditions. While it is an example of one, it sure proved the viability of the thesis. Caliber is but one variable among many that can influence an outcome. I am grateful that authoritative sources are willing to share their actual experiences with the rest of us.

So a guy that been living with the bears for 45 years, numerous encounters per year, guiding clients with varying degrees of marksmanship, and killing an 800 lb grizzly at feet with a 147/9mm hard cast - and you arrive here?

Ok.....

I'd be curious if you ever shot your large bore, loaded warm hand cannon rapid fire at close range. You must be way better than most people I've seen do that drill.

Hunting is not close range reaction at a moving target. I'll take lead on target vs alot of noise. Maybe muzzle blast will singe their lips closed?

Did you watch the OP attached ballistic test vid?

Considerably more that a spitwad's difference, especially RE: the denim/MDF intermediate barrier test, if penetration is king.

- 30% more velocity (1314 fps)
- 70% more energy (536 fpe)
- 37% more penetration (25")

The Hornady Custom 147 gr. XTP .357Sig load - hits at 100 yards, what the 9mm load does at contact range.




GR

800 lb BROWN bear - not a GRIZZLY
1250 fps is not warm - 1450 fps is.
This isn't about hunting an unsuspecting animal it is about stopping a charge.
I'll take big lead penetration over magazine capacity EVERY time. Send your 9mm/10mm pet load into the skull plate of a griz. Then we can talk penetration

I watched/listened to the video last night while grilling supper for the family. I enjoyed it thoroughly and I realized how blessed Phil must feel having raised such a great family in paradise. Knowing that they’re following in the footsteps of a legend is the icing on the proverbial cake.

Thanks Phil for sharing your EXPERIENCE!

Thanks cowboybart for the laugh…. I got several hearty chuckles from your hypothetical postulations…..if 1450fps is “warm” from a pistol/handgun I’m humorously curious as to what you consider HOT from a handgun? Appreciate the unintentional “humor” irregardless.

A 475 Linebaugh with 420 grain hard cast can be loaded to 1400 FPS. I know this for a fact BTDT. 1200 FPS is much easier to shoot and still very effective.
The 500 JRH with a 440 grain flat point hard cast at 950 to 1000 FPS is extremely effective also.

Phil believed the 9mm with flat point Hardcastle would work and he proved correct.

Thanks to Phil for sharing your experiences here.

For what it’s worth, I have killed many wild hogs with handguns testing lots of different loads.

The best 9mm loads are far more effective than anything smaller and kill nearly as quickly as the largest handgun loads.

Oh I know external ballistics quite well which is why I’m curious as to what cowboybart considers “HOT” if 1450fps is merely warm from a handgun ? I also have to laugh when someone says that 1250fps isn’t enough but 100fps more IS enough….😂….or a hardcast bouncing off and deflecting from a bears rib. Bears are big critters but their bones are NOT exceptionally big or heavy when compared to some other animals.

FWIW….Phil’s 147gr hardcast was doing approximately 1100fps, not 1350fps but it still got the job done….without bouncing off or deflecting. In fact it went THROUGH and was found just under the hide on the off side!

So again….if 1450fps from a handgun is “warm” then what does it take to reach the vaunted “HOT” status?

Like I said in my first post on this thread, I truly appreciate Phil’s real world experience! My question is directed at this thread’s comedic expert, cowboybart. 😉

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that John Linebaugh respected Phil's opinion on how to kill big bears. I personally have heard him say exactly such a thing about Phil.

I can also say John L never killed a brown bear or grizzly with a handgun or any gun and never stopped a fight with a bear. I don't believe he ever killed even a black bear with a handgun.

I can speculate with good reason that John L would have understood exactly why a hard cast flat point bullet at 1100fps would offer enough penatration to effectively kill a large brown bear.

You're way out over your skies here and would do well to post less and read more.

The 147 Hardcastle that Phil used exhibited adequate penetration and most definitely got the job done.

More penetration would ot have mattered, since the 147 grain hard cast completely penetrated the vital organs

John,

Very interesting!

I only met John Linebaugh once, but we talked on the phone a few times--which was always interesting.

John

Have you ever BEEN charged by a grizzly/brown? Were any of those people who "never cleared lever" mauled?

Here I'll essentially repeat something I recently posted on another website, along with some more details.

I was born and raised in Bozeman, Montana when it was 1/10th the size it is now, when there weren't many grizzlies--partly because back then the season was open year-round, and anybody who had a Montana hunting license could kill one, then pay a $25 fee to the game department. This was 90 miles from Yellowstone Park, and there were a few grizzlies around. Saw my first one at 8 years old--and a friend who was a year behind me in school killed a big boar about a dozen miles from Bozeman, with one head-shot with a .25-35, when he was 12.

Mentioned earlier that I have encountered so many grizzlies in Montana since then that I've lost count. This includes areas in and around the Bob Marshall Wilderness, just south of Glacier Park. Have yet to be charged by any Montana grizzly, even though when hunting my good friend, the late Richard Jackson, when we encountered a mature boar at around 30 feet while sneaking through the narrow trails on a big, overgrown clearcut in the southern Bob around 30 years ago. The boar looked directly at us for a few seconds (we didn't move) then turned and walked away into the brush. We could hear it breaking through branches as it headed away. That is as close as I've come to a "charge" here. (Oh, and on that hunt saw just as many grizzlies as black bears.)

My old friend Bill McRae, the noted wildlife photographer, lived in a small town along the Rocky Mountain Front where the grizzly population was the highest in Montana--outside of Glacier and Yellowstone Parks. He killed a boar grizzly while hunting with his kids during the "year-round" season, but was never charged--while also encountering dozens of grizzlies.

I've hunted or fished in grizzly/brown bear country a lot outside Montana and Wyoming (where I lived in Lander for a while), including seven trips to Alaska, and about as many to grizzly country in Canada, including northern Alberta and British Columbia, and twice in the Northwest Territories, and also twice in Nunavut Territory--which borders the west side of Hudson Bay, the furthest east grizzlies live. Have encountered a bunch of grizzly bears, including the smaller Arctic subspecies, which are considered even more aggressive than the larger grizzlies further south.

Have been charged twice--both times on Kodiak Island, by those supposedly less aggressive brown bears. In each instance it was a sow with cubs--both of which "bluff-charged" until their cubs climbed the hill behind her.

Could tell plenty of other stories about close encounters, but also might ask you to describe your actual up-close experience with grizzlies--or brown bears.

A huge factor I was considering during the entire bear episode was , where were my friends/clients ? And were they in danger of a bullet passing through and hitting them ? A guide shooting a client is a bad career move, and if they also happen to be friends it’s inconceivable!
All those thoughts were in my mind before I began shooting !
I had a Hamilton Bowen 475 Linebaugh I could have been carrying, as well as my S&W 44 Mtn Gun stuffed with 320 gr BB loads. Both of those are much better hunting handguns, but would have been the worst things to use under the circumstances

John,

Based on a lot of discussion with John Linebaugh, I moved to Cody to work with him doing rifles, I don't think he would be the least bit surprised that Phil killed a big bear with the 147gr FP as loaded by Tim Sundles/BBA. It would be completely "on brand" for his ideas of heavy for caliber cast bullets with flat points being very effective on game.

John L was familar with many gun writer bylines and Phil was pretty famous for the .458 Win Mag and brown bears. Again that was pretty much on brand for Linebaugh. I personally heard him speak highly of Phil's writing from that late 1980s early 1990 period of G and A. Phil's use of the 30-06 and heavy Partitions is another idea that fit with John's philosophies on bullet performance on game. John read Bells works on killing elephants with moderate rounds and long bullets.

He might have been a bit more of a Taylor/Keith guy but like us all he kept learning and when nobody was around he admitted the good ol .270 Win with a decent bullet killed elk just fine.

Funny how those who shoot a bit all seem to come pretty close on what works and what does not and shot placement is the most important variable.

John

Having skinned the occasional bear head over a lot of years I made an amazing discovery! A bigger bear has a much heavier head!

Having cut a lot of bone over those years, from lots of different critters an equally amazing fact showed up. Not all bone is equal. Some like caribou is very hard, fairly thin, but quite brittle. Mountain goat is thicker, less dense, and slightly softer. And I could go on about many others.

Big bears are interesting because the bones are significantly softer, medium density, and extremely tough. I have posted a picture of an orange-handled knife on the opposite side of a cleaned (but wet) Kodiak bear scapula. It is thin enough to make out color... and shape.

A betting man would put his money on a Yellowstone grizzly skull every time for putting up the least resistance to bullets... or lose a lot of money.

Thanks.

If I recall correctly, the last time we talked on the phone he invited me to a "gun writer" get-together, partly because it wasn't that long a drive for me.

But he always impressed me as promoting his revolvers as hunting handguns--and they obviously worked on a number of grizzlies. But don't know if he would have suggested long-barreled single-actions them as perfect for bear defense....

John

It is my understanding the shots were just behind the shoulder and through the ribs. This would be the short route to get to the vitals bypassing the larger muscles and bone. I wonder if the shots were head on what the result would have been. I fully understand Phil was put in a hell of a spot and did amazing with the tool he had in hand at the time.

Plasma rifle, 40 watt range; or maybe a hand phaser. Short of these, I’ll still need to pack clean undershorts.

John L carried a S&W 25 most all the time. 4 inch barrel and loaded with 250-280gr bullets @ something like 1100 fps or so. He lived on Line Creek and that is Grizzly country.

I can say he was confident such loads would zip though a bears noggin from any angle. He was not a fan of big recoil when he was actually the guy pulling the trigger.

I knew John rather well and this is spot on.

John originally was a proponent of a 420 grain flat point hard cast in the 475 Linebaugh at 1400 FPS, but as time went on he came to the conclusion that 1200 FPS was much easier to shoot and perfectly effective. Dustin Linebaugh used a 1200 FOS load to take an 8' bear in Alaska at if memory served 176 yards with a 4 5/8" barrel.

John Linebaugh said that these big bore handguns were long range punch presses and once you put a hole through them you had done all you could

That's interesting. I think I have seen you mention that before.
I grew up around Montana and Idaho grizzlies. Been bluffed few times by them, plus once more by an interior mountain griz up north. I also have had several Arctic grizzly encounters on the North Slope but was never really in a situation where I felt threatened by them. The big bears I have seen and been around on Afognak Island and the Penninsula haven't given me any trouble, even when I happened upon them chewing on my elk or caribou, or dragging meat away from camp, which has happened.

I'm not doubting your experience, but am saying that mine has been different.

Regardless, I've been humbled several times by how close a bear can be before realizing they're around...both interior griz and coastal brown bears.

How many people could there possibly be that had much experience using handguns to stop grizzly attacks? I’d think that after one or perhaps two such rodeos, a fellow would change tactics, or maybe leave the area, or hire security, or something!

Interesting discussion. It could have gone a totally different way if the bear reached down and took a couple of bites out of the clients faces before it ran off and died.

I’m a fan of any double action handgun capable of shooting heavy for caliber hard cast slugs. I prefer a high cap 9mm for a car gun, a .38 +P for pocket carry, and a .41 Rem Mag for bear country. A .41 is about all that I can handle for rapid fire follow up shots

I watched the Spomer YT video this evening. Very informative. I carry a high capacity 9mm with 147's for black bear defense. Not the same thing I know but blackies are the only frame of reference I have

Phil, do you feel that the 9mm/147 BB combo would have still been effective if you had shot the bear facing you, as opposed to it being broadside?

I see you acknowledged: “were they in danger of a bullet passing through and hitting them”, which was exactly my thought when you mentioned that you couldn’t see your clients/friends. It is one argument against wanting complete penetration.

I am glad the situation worked out as it did…it easily could have ended differently if any one of these factors being discussed were different.

It would have been interesting.
As I could hear the bear charging through the pucker brush coming toward us I was wishing for my 458 and thinking that I would be lucky to even get in a single shot

Phil:
Just to ask a question, I test hard cast pistol bullet penetration in compressed dry newspaper since central Texas is lacking in either brown, grizzly or black bears. We do however, have feral pigs in profusion. My .45 super at 250 gr/1050 fps load gets complete hog penetration from most angles.

What range of dry paper penetration does your hard cast .357/9mm load get?

Thank you for the wonderful insights that you bring to these discussions.

Would like to hear your field results with those guns and loads.

I also would be interested in what is considered adequate penetration in dry paper, stacked magazines, etc. I cast bullets and handload and would like an easily available yardstick to assess how my loads measure up.

Thanks

Thanks, Phil, for that information, plus the information in your video. I've never been charged by a bear, Grizzly or Black. I'll take all the information I can get from experienced hunters.

L.W.

Back around 10 years ago got back late from shopping in the Soo with Yolanda to run the baits and then go bear hunting….it was early October and I didn’t have any clients for the late season it was my turn to hunt…helped her unload the truck and got ready quick put the bait buckets on the 4 wheeler and took off….had 3 baits to put out before I could hunt the last one…first bait I wasn’t going to hunt so drove the 4 wheeler to the bait…unbolted the bait barrel lid on the 55 gallon barrel poured the bait in and was re-bolting the lid when I caught move meant over my left shoulder turned my head and a bear was running about 50 ft away right towards me I turned and drew my pistol firing two shots with the bear stopping about two feet from me face down dead…
Thats when I felt the adrenaline rush what had happened I always carry my S&W 4″ 629 that day in such of a rush I forgot didn’t change guns and had my Kimber 45 ACP loaded with Hornady 230 gr. Hydra-Shoks…hit the bear just a little above and dead center of its eyes then a little off center in front of the ears and to the top of the head….I really don’t remember aiming at all just drawing the gun and pulling the trigger there was smoke coming off the bear from the gun shots….
I’ve see bears many times around the baits but never when I drove the 4 wheeler to it….never had a bear ever give any sign of aggression they would see me and run…was lucky I had drawn a permit that year….one of the few bears I have mounted just a shoulder mount with its ears back and mouth open but a reminder of what could have happened….

Never been in Brown Bear country, but hopefully I will someday and this thread has been most informative and has changed my mind. I used to think a 44 mag or my 454 Casull was the way to go but not anymore. I think I will carry either a Glock 20 or a 31 with hard cast lead. The two big bores are fine if one is HUNTING, but for close is work like Phil alludes to, a smaller caliber with good bullets and faster (much) follow up shots is the way to go.

My point being that I don’t trust single action handguns in a crunch. Never shot at a bear.

It’s difficult to compare testing media to actual game animals, but you can compare various bullets and calibers in relation to each other in a test medium and then extrapolate with the results you have witnessed in game

That's what I always did, but changed my procedure to mirror Finn Aagaard's by adding 1/2" plywood at the front of a stack of wet compressed phonebooks.

But I haven't done any testing in a long time since phone books went the way of the Dodo bird.

Phil:
The question I am asking is what sort of penetration in dry paper did/do you get with the 9mm hardcast? I get about 10 in. with my 45 hardcast.

Thank you.

My point about mentioning wet and dry paper was to inform people that the relationship between calibers and bullets of know performance .

If you stack dry magazines tightly in a container you will be impressed by how little most bullets penetrate. I tried it with the 9mm and it only penetrated 3-4”. But in a bear it was more like 16-18”

Thank you for the answer sir. The reference point is important. Given everything, my .45 load appears to be adequate at least for the targets I am likely to encounter.

Now all I need to do is acquire your calm under stress and muscle memory. That will be a tall order.


BB
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"I knew John rather well and this is spot on."
JohnBurns: At the Linbaugh Seminars penetration tests were performed. These became increasingly more refined as time progressed. The results were readily available but I have not been able to find them now. Do you know where they are available? Thanks.

Phil:

I'm wondering how the Lehigh all copper "penetrator" bullets would do for that. I carry them often in both my 9mm and .45ACP. According to various YouTube videos, they penetrate very well and do serious tissue damage due to their "screwdriver" shape. Just wondering out loud here, but that might be a better option than hard cast flat point lead. I confess that I have personally never tried a comparison in either compressed paper nor an animal, just watched the gel tests. I'm not certain, but I think Buffalo Bore, or maybe someone else, commercially loads these bullets. I handload mine. Your thoughts?

I do not know.

To be honest I am not really interested in peneatration tests as a be all end all test of game performance.

Based on my on game experience using heavy for caliber/proper hardness cast bullets it's pretty easy to get enough penetration for game up to at least moose.

When penetration is the only metric it's easy to go down paths that might not offer the best total terminal performance/shootability for really killing critters.

I agree with you that the info would be nice to know but I don't have a source.

I too have been a bit apprehensive about penetration being more important than most anything else. I get needing to break shoulders during a charge, but having the bullet tear stuff up seems important too. I've shot enough critters with FMJs and other 'solids' and watched them run 100 yards before toppling to not be sold on penetration being everything.

My rather infamous mountain lion incident here on the 'fire was at least partly due to FMJs out of a .38 Special. That achieved total penetration through the chest but the damn thing lived long enough to tear some dogs up and myself to an extent.

Phil advocates hard cast, which makes TOTAL sense to me as you'll likely get good penetration, but also some expansion. I am guessing (hoping) they also aren't as prone to being deflected off course once bone or whatever else is hit, which I have seen some indications of FMJs doing.

As an aside, for non-dangerous game, I rather like my recovered bullet collection and never want nor demand an exit. Blood trails are the only reason why I can think of wanting an exit. Nirvana for me is finding the bullet or pieces lodged up against the hide on the far side.

I am well aware that expanding bullets that open wide or shed pieces and “dump energy” can be spectacular killers.
The problem is where and when they expand and no handgun has the energy to actually stop massive animals unless it hits the central nervous system.
Bullet penetration , and placement, are more reliable and controllable.

My post wasn't aimed at you. My apologies if that is the impression I gave.

It was in regards to hunters in general who claim complete penetration is an absolute requirement for them to be satisfied with a bullet's performance. Whether on dangerous game or not.