I suppose Phil’s post is description enough, but is there a transcript available or TLDW for those of us who aren’t interested in a YouTube video? I’m too old for this video schist.
You're gonna have to settle for his post but your virtue signal is flashing 5X5.
Always funny how a few are not interested in actually hearing what others have to say, especially when the other is a legendary subject matter expert on the subject matter. Phil did a great job.
I watched the whole thing and found it very interesting, but then I like to learn stuff and how often can one listen to a guy with 45 years of bear hunting talk about bear hunting and bear defense.
As this is a technical type forum I did notice Phil said the BBA 9mm 147gr ammo was going 1300fps. That's quite a bit faster than on Tim's site and a 147gr @1300fps is pretty hot for .357 Sig much more so for 9X19mm even in +P dressing.
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Why would he ask for a transcript if he weren’t interested in Phil’s thoughts? Maybe he’s hearing impaired. Maybe he doesn’t care for the interviewer. Maybe he just likes reading. That doesn’t sound like virtue signaling to me.
I suppose Phil’s post is description enough, but is there a transcript available or TLDW for those of us who aren’t interested in a YouTube video? I’m too old for this video schist.
You're gonna have to settle for his post but your virtue signal is flashing 5X5.
Always funny how a few are not interested in actually hearing what others have to say, especially when the other is a legendary subject matter expert on the subject matter. Phil did a great job.
I watched the whole thing and found it very interesting, but then I like to learn stuff and how often can one listen to a guy with 45 years of bear hunting talk about bear hunting and bear defense.
As this is a technical type forum I did notice Phil said the BBA 9mm 147gr ammo was going 1300fps. That's quite a bit faster than on Tim's site and a 147gr @1300fps is pretty hot for .357 Sig much more so for 9X19mm even in +P dressing.
Originally Posted by 458Win
John, I did give the wrong velocity for the BB 9mm. I had placed a box of 357 BB ammo on top of my 9mm stash and simply looked down and read the velocity of the 357. My mistake. The 9mm 147 gr bullets are running right around the listed 1100 fps
I also wrote a feature in the 2018 Gun Digest on the entire episode and included numerous photos
You hit a lot in the video so a minor tech mistake is understandable and takes nothing from the account. I read the account/saw the pictures previously and it seems the story has stayed very consistant.
That was no midget bear and winning that fight with a 9mm is litterally "Legendary".
Thanks for taking the time to do the interview as it was well worth the time to listen.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
Ask and it shall be given - as it were and so to speak.
Indeed it's a good one.
Best to you all.
Dwayne
I’ll never hunt big bears and I’ll never meet Mr. Shoemaker but I certainly enjoyed this podcast. I’ve watched it twice and everyone I’ve sent it to has enjoyed it.
As this is a technical type forum I did notice Phil said the BBA 9mm 147gr ammo was going 1300fps. That's quite a bit faster than on Tim's site and a 147gr @1300fps is pretty hot for .357 Sig much more so for 9X19mm even in +P dressing.
I have chrono'd the same Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman +P ammo out of multiple guns and got the following muzzle velocities using a Labradar, except as otherwise indicated: Glock 19, Gen 4 (4 inch barrel) using a Chrony at 10 feet: 1058 fps, ES 28, 5 shots Glock 26, Gen 4 (3.5 inch barrel) using a Chrony at 10 feet: 1036, ES 13, 5 shots Sig P365 (3.1 inch barrel): 1010 fps, ES 40, 10 shots (Mackay_Sagebrush’s Lost River Ammunition Co. version of the same load, 989, ES 22, 5 shots) Sig P365 XL (3.7 in barrel): 1066, ES 23, 5 shots (Lost River version of the same load, 1061, ES 20, 5 shots) Ruger PC Carbine 1267, ES 19, 5 shots (Lost River version of the same load, 1281, ES 15, 5 shots)
I made up a multi-media torture test, and the ammo out of the Carbine did substantially better than out of the P365 XL. That should not be a surprise. But, we have actual proof that it works in a 4 inch barrel (per S&W Model 39 specs) when necessary, nonetheless! So, it doesn't matter.
I really appreciate the interview, Mr. Shoemaker!
Last edited by Cheyenne; 04/20/24.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
I suppose Phil’s post is description enough, but is there a transcript available or TLDW for those of us who aren’t interested in a YouTube video? I’m too old for this video schist.
You're gonna have to settle for his post but your virtue signal is flashing 5X5.
Always funny how a few are not interested in actually hearing what others have to say, especially when the other is a legendary subject matter expert on the subject matter. Phil did a great job.
I watched the whole thing and found it very interesting, but then I like to learn stuff and how often can one listen to a guy with 45 years of bear hunting talk about bear hunting and bear defense.
As this is a technical type forum I did notice Phil said the BBA 9mm 147gr ammo was going 1300fps. That's quite a bit faster than on Tim's site and a 147gr @1300fps is pretty hot for .357 Sig much more so for 9X19mm even in +P dressing.
John, I did give the wrong velocity for the BB 9mm. I had placed a box of 357 BB ammo on top of my 9mm stash and simply looked down and read the velocity of the 357. My mistake. The 9mm 147 gr bullets are running right around the listed 1100 fps
I also wrote a feature in the 2018 Gun Digest on the entire episode and included numerous photos
Thanks Phil, will check that out. And thanks for all you contribute to the community.
Being interested in such things. I’ve watched it read about ever bear incident I could find. I can’t recall anyone carrying a firearm of any type to be harmed by a black bear. I imagine it’s happened, but it can’t be very frequent.
Out of 93 incidents reported handguns stopped the attack 97% of the time. Didn't necessarily kill the bear but stopped the attack. This is ALL handguns with all types of ammo used. If you read over the article 44 mag was probably most often used, but there are plenty of 38's, 357's 9mm's, various 45's 40's and 10mm pistols used. Even a few 380's and 22's. And not just black bear, but the larger species as well.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
I can read 5 times faster than people on a video talk, and I don't miss words when I'm reading like I do when I'm listening (especially with all the years of hearing damage I've accumulated).
I can also instantly go back over a passage a few times if there's something I didn't understand, rather than hitting the rewind button and hoping I didn't go back too far, or more frustratingly, not far enough.
What a time waster to watch video compared to reading!
Some of you won't understand this viewpoint, but those of you who watch movies with the captions on will probably stand up and shout YES!
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing -- Edmund Burke
Being interested in such things. I’ve watched it read about ever bear incident I could find. I can’t recall anyone carrying a firearm of any type to be harmed by a black bear. I imagine it’s happened, but it can’t be very frequent.
Out of 93 incidents reported handguns stopped the attack 97% of the time. Didn't necessarily kill the bear but stopped the attack. This is ALL handguns with all types of ammo used. If you read over the article 44 mag was probably most often used, but there are plenty of 38's, 357's 9mm's, various 45's 40's and 10mm pistols used. Even a few 380's and 22's. And not just black bear, but the larger species as well.
As stated earlier, I live in what passes for “bear county “ down here. With the big swamp next to my house, I’m probably within a half mile of a black bear most all the time. Any gun seems like more than enough. In fact I’m much more likely to succumb to a bee sting or lightning strike. I’m usually packing heat, but not primarily for bears.
My hat’s off to the guys that coexist easily with brown/grizzly bears. I get to AK occasionally and my comfort level around those things is pretty low. They seem to like being around me much more so than I do them.
I can read 5 times faster than people on a video talk, and I don't miss words when I'm reading like I do when I'm listening (especially with all the years of hearing damage I've accumulated).
I can also instantly go back over a passage a few times if there's something I didn't understand, rather than hitting the rewind button and hoping I didn't go back too far, or more frustratingly, not far enough.
What a time waster to watch video compared to reading!
Some of you won't understand this viewpoint, but those of you who watch movies with the captions on will probably stand up and shout YES!
Your mind will be blown when you learn that the video posted was captioned and it can be played at fast speed plus it can be paused and backed up to replay anything you struggled to comprehend.
Ad in the ability to see the experts non verbal comunications and anyone who claims a simple transcript it a better medium for comunication most likely is themselves a poor communicator.
Phil did write the story up with pictures which is also very much worth the time to read and view. I sort of thought everyone who had an interest in the subject matter had already seen the article as it was posted here a few times.
30 seconds on a search engine provided multiple returns. Here is one of many with pictures for those who are afflicted with ADD and much to busy posting drivel on the CAMPFIRE to actually watch the interview. Good luck.
Everyone is fixated on the caliber. Brown bears are more " docile" then a WY/MT/ID griz Shots thru the ribs are not the shots you are afforded if the griz is coming at you (charging) What would have happened if the 9mm hit a rib and deflected or stopped??? The brown bear didn't stop right away, it took a while then meandered off. Not a good plan if the bear is separating your skin from your muscles while you bleed out.
Carry enough gun Know how to use enough gun Be able to hit a moving target
Some is Good---More is Better----Too Much is Just Right
What would have happened if the 9mm hit a rib and deflected or stopped???
He did point out that the 147 gr hardcast from a 9mm gave virtually the same penetration as any other handgun round that he had tested. I've seen other test results in gel showing that bullet actually penetrating deeper than larger/heavier loads from bigger handguns. Unless I'm mis hearing something from the podcast he felt that 9mm load was as good as any other HANDGUN load in a defensive situation, bigger guns were better for hunting. He pointed out that in his testing he was able to get off 3 accurate shots with the 9mm in the same amount of time as 1 aimed shot with his 44 mag.
I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it too. Especially on bear that large. I've carried 147 gr Buffalo Bore in 9mm for several years, even before Shoemaker's bear incident, around home where black bear are common. We are planning a road trip this summer and will be camping in both Glacier and Yellowstone. While I respect Mr. Shoemaker's opinion, at this point I'd just sleep a little better at night with my 10mm loaded with Buffalo Bore 220 gr loads at 1200 fps.
And I really did enjoy watching the podcast. I would normally never sit for nearly an hour for something like that, but I enjoyed every minute.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
Everyone is fixated on the caliber. Brown bears are more " docile" then a WY/MT/ID griz Shots thru the ribs are not the shots you are afforded if the griz is coming at you (charging) What would have happened if the 9mm hit a rib and deflected or stopped??? The brown bear didn't stop right away, it took a while then meandered off. Not a good plan if the bear is separating your skin from your muscles while you bleed out.
Carry enough gun Know how to use enough gun Be able to hit a moving target
I don’t think I would consider a 800-1200 pound bear “more docile” than a 400-600 pound bear when it is actually charging. And hoping to hit the head of a rapidly approaching bear, that is swinging his head rapidly from side to side , when your body is dumping adrenaline into your system with only a single shot from some sort of heavy recoiling hand cannon may be some peoples idea of a proper solution . But, having been killing big bears for over 40 years , it’s not a solution I would recommend .
I can read 5 times faster than people on a video talk, and I don't miss words when I'm reading like I do when I'm listening (especially with all the years of hearing damage I've accumulated).
I can also instantly go back over a passage a few times if there's something I didn't understand, rather than hitting the rewind button and hoping I didn't go back too far, or more frustratingly, not far enough.
What a time waster to watch video compared to reading!
Some of you won't understand this viewpoint, but those of you who watch movies with the captions on will probably stand up and shout YES!
I listened to it while I was preparing and cooking supper. I occasionally looked at it too, and actually appreciated the video. You get a sense for what a humble and knowledgeable man Phil is. When Ron asked questions, in particular about bear behavior, Phil unhesitatingly and authoritatively responded. You won't get the same degree of appreciation from reading that you will from watching and listening.
None of that takes away from the fact that you are correct. You could read a transcript much faster.
Everyone is fixated on the caliber. Brown bears are more " docile" then a WY/MT/ID griz Shots thru the ribs are not the shots you are afforded if the griz is coming at you (charging) What would have happened if the 9mm hit a rib and deflected or stopped??? The brown bear didn't stop right away, it took a while then meandered off. Not a good plan if the bear is separating your skin from your muscles while you bleed out.
Carry enough gun Know how to use enough gun Be able to hit a moving target
How many charging WY/MT/ID grizzlies have you seen stopped with a handgun? Just curious.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
What would have happened if the 9mm hit a rib and deflected or stopped???
A rib is not going to stop that bullet. In fact rib splinters may help create a little secondary wounding. The bullet may deflect some, but will still find the vitals. I don't know that from shooting bears, but I have done enough reading and video watching to strongly believe what I wrote to be the case.
I suppose Phil’s post is description enough, but is there a transcript available or TLDW for those of us who aren’t interested in a YouTube video? I’m too old for this video schist.
You're gonna have to settle for his post but your virtue signal is flashing 5X5.
Always funny how a few are not interested in actually hearing what others have to say, especially when the other is a legendary subject matter expert on the subject matter. Phil did a great job.
I watched the whole thing and found it very interesting, but then I like to learn stuff and how often can one listen to a guy with 45 years of bear hunting talk about bear hunting and bear defense.
As this is a technical type forum I did notice Phil said the BBA 9mm 147gr ammo was going 1300fps. That's quite a bit faster than on Tim's site and a 147gr @1300fps is pretty hot for .357 Sig much more so for 9X19mm even in +P dressing.
Great to have fact checkers...
When its time to fight, you fight like you are the third monkey on the ramp to get on Noah's Arc... and brother, it is starting to rain!
How many charging WY/MT/ID grizzlies have you seen stopped with a handgun? Just curious.
Zero Neighbor stopped one with a 41 mag. The other folks I know used a rifle. Still other folks never got a shot off - it happened so quick. Some never cleared leather. You can carry your 9. I got my education from John Linebaugh. I'll go with his results of the heaviest bullet at 12-1250 fps
Some is Good---More is Better----Too Much is Just Right