Ok-Ok, let's hear it! I sure do see alot of p$$ing and moaning about this areticle or that in certain mags, so I am thinking, what do you consider to be the WORST of the bunch out there? As for me, I think it to be RIFLE SHOOTER. i was given a 'script to this, and I vividly remember one issue, in which the cover gun was a CZ,and that was thier main article........yet no guns were FIRED!!!!!! the nex month, I had the cah-ola up for a Cooper, and they had an article on it....and only fired 3 sight-in rounds - SOME ARTICLE!!! the last was that in that same article there was a Layne Simpson (groan) article for a Ruger M77RSI in which he fired an unknown number of rounds across a "bowl shaped depression" of unknown distance, and even admitted that most positive comments were related to haveing the gun leaned up in his office, the commentors handling it and making said comments - need I say more?

What is the worst for y'all?

Shooting Times, G&A, F&S, Outdoor Life, etc. (American Rifleman ranks up there, too. I'd never buy that piece of horse dung outside of my NRA membership.) Fortunately I bought all of them off eBay for $10 or less for three years. I thumb through and give them away to friends, family, and co-workers. (People who don't take offense to second-rate, used mags.)

The common denominator of them all seems to a hidden advertising/shill agenda for some rather lackluster gadget/gun/caliber du jour.

Shooting Times is right behind.

I haven't been too impressed with the Wolfe stuff in Rifle lately. The latest Haviland trash about shooting at caribou with a Model 70 that he had only DRY FIRED is enough to make me reduce my Wolfe subscrition to two magazines, instead of all three. That has got to be the worst example of poor ethics and gun writer laziness I've ever seen in print. At least he could admit the stunt. I don't let anybody in my hunt camps that tries to do something like that. I would expect Dave Scovill to come down hard on that kind of behavior from an alleged "professional".

I'm dissappointed he didn't edit the entire sidebar.

I like them all, there's wheat and chaff in each one. I just eat the wheat and look over the chaff.

Glad we have them all.

Don't like them, don't buy them. Why complain here?

I know the magazines have to sell adds to fund the production but it seems like articles in Petersons publications seem to be very long ads....

All of the gun mags in recent years have gone down hill.....including the Wolfe publications.

Read the mags from 25 years ago (when Elmer keith and others from that generation were still writing) and you get 8-10 pages per article that actually had information you could use. the articles were informative and intertaining.

Today all of the magazine articles are 2-4 pages of praise for whoever is paying the bills this month. If I wanted to read an advertisment I'd look at the ads......I don't need it in an article that is supposed to be informative. The mags and writers have largely sold out to the ad men and very little useful information is included....except how "wonderful" the XYZ company's new product is.

If an article was submitted today that was informative and didn't name any products and try to sell me on them....it would never be accepted and see print (I know from personal experience this is true).

In my opinion....if I'm going to read an ad, then they should pay me to read their mag.....not the other way around.

Hmmmm . . . . .

This has been hashed out annually for years now.

Let's all have a good rant, and then get on with life.

BMT

I get alot of gun mags every month but the only one I usually read all of is handloader and most of rifle and Sucessful hunter.
Most of the others get quickly gone through and get put in a stack to get used for bullet testing.

You must be passionate about this subject since we got two threads going at once.

Maybe its a simple matter of redundence.How many articles on " Rifles and load for Whitetails "can be written and read before they all run together.Or maybe its all these new fangled short mags, ultra mags and plain ol'mags that really wont do anything the others wont, or the same writers who bash .30-30 class rounds whooping it up for new stuff thats the same power levels.additionally , do we really need any new cartridges other than to have something new? Whats a gun writer to do? I do agree that the least they could do is to shoot more than they write!

I bought Shooting Times for 1 yr because of the price. Never again even at $8 yr. The latest issue was about the guns in Iraq.
Big deal. Every mag except the wolfe guys have done this. And how many articles on over $1000 1911s do we need?

For me its Handloader, Rifle, and Successful Hunter. These guys get my money.

Now if they could just expand a little and add Wayne Van Zwoll...

I can read most any of them, and do get most. I'll let the G&A and Shooting Times subs run out since I can get most of thier decent rifle info from rifle shooter. I respect and enjoy reading Boddington and Van Zwoll. I don't have much interest in handgunning or shotguns anymore.
I do prefer the wolfe mags these days. I'm glad I don't have to see viagra ads in thier pages.

Viagra ads would be great if properly presented. Perhaps next to an article about how stiffer barrels help you shoot better.

How many times can a writer take the latest high tech rifle with the latest and most expensive scope on top, to the far north, or Africa, or anywhere else, to test a .30 caliber 180 grain bullet shot out of the latest whiz-bang magnum at 3000 FPS?

Will this bullet do anything that a .300 H & H wouldn't do 75 years ago, or whenever it first came available?

Will the .325 WSM kill anything quicker or deader than the 8 M/M Remington Magnum did on the same type game all those many years ago.

Probably, if a person could research the older magazines, he would find that the 8 m/m Remington was tested on the same type game with the same type bullets at about the same velocity as the .325 WSM was tested with a few months ago.

I recently saw a show were joe coogan met with the legendary harry selby as part of a promotional bit for joes employer, beretta. joe was promoting a beretta semi auto rifle in 300 win mag, a huge rig and scope to boot. the thing look so out of place in africa, especially in Selby's camp. they were both trying to put their best foot forward but you could tell that it was a tough sell for them.

neither one of those chaps would carry such a rifle in the field if they could avoid it.

Do what I did. Let ALL your subscriptions expire, and just buy the magazines you want on the news stand. If this months G&A is bad (all G&A are bad lately), don't buy it. I once subscribed to Rifle, Handloader, G&A, Shooting Times, & Rifle Shooter. They're all gone now. And I had it bad for Rifle & Handloader, too. I'd renew them for 3 years at a pop. I still buy 2-3 issues a year.

Ditto. I feel the same way.

Virtually all pubs have gone to the USA Today format, as people's attentiong spans appear to be about zero now. One has to scan for text messages or instant messages about every 30 seconds. Articles are just teasers usually just regurgitating facts found on sales poop sheets. No subscriptions presently.

I will renew a lapsed Greys Sporting Journal, because their writers do excel. But they are not a gun rag.

A few months ago, just as I had picked up a Marlin 1895 45-70, Handloader had an excellent article of probably 8 or 9 pages on low, mid, and high end loads just for that rifle. Excellent article as it was filled with lots of data, and it is now filed away as reference material.

Having essentially no tactical interest, I don't even scan about 70% of the covers I see on the stands.

One thing that I think you guys maybe overlooking is the fact that over the years that you have been reading these gun magazines you have been learning. Learning from your own experiences hunting and shooting your guns and learning from reading about guns you don't own, but may own someday. So after awhile the gun writers start to overlap on their articles and you start to read stuff you just read about two years before. So therefore it's starts to get boring. Personally, I've been into guns for a long time and I don't know how these writers can come up with interesteing articles month after month. Try it yorself, sit down and think about what YOU would write about if Dave Wolfe said " Hey this month we are going to print your article ". Now at first you could come up with five, six maybe even twenty articles, but think about it sooner or later your going to run out of ideas that are of particular interest to you and at that point your going to have to tread into unknown territory. I realize that some writers are more gifted than others and I'm not defending anyone, but expecting these writers to come up with groundbreaking articles month after month is tough. I don't care who the writer is at one time or another he has written some good stuff. Even any of you guys could write at least one or two good articles if you tried, but I bet it would be on a suject that your real passionate about. I have heard that some writers are told to write about certain subject like it or not. As an example, the late Bill Jordan always seemed to write about handguns, but as I have heard he loved and was very fond of rifles, but because of his reputation with handguns that's what he had to write about. Once again, I'm not defending anyone just trying to look at this post from another angle. We are lucking that there are as many gun magazines out there that we have a selection to choose from. Any and all comments are welcomed. RRM

Notice the absence of writers responding. That's because no matter how often we try to explain or politely discuss this topic, in two weeks somebody else will post the same damn bitch and start it all over again, with the same lame observations and the same petulant whining.

Maybe it's not just magazines or writers that are sucky, huh? After all, posters keep writing about this same thing, month after month. After a while, who wants to read them?

Wanna win an easy bet? Put down ten bucks that two weeks from now, somebody else will post about how bad gun magazines/writers are. But don't bet that I'll reply to it.

Excellent post, RRM.

I bet most of us have spent years fooling with guns and reading about them. Most of the magazines are not geared up toward us but toward the "mainstream" types in the hobby. Keep in mind, you and I have been reading Keith, O'Connor, et al. since we were kids, own a large safe full of guns, and reload for everything but Joe Q. Gunowner isn't like that. Old Joe ain't as up on things as we are but he is the one that buys magazines. The market dictates what is published. I've gotten Rifle and Handloader both for years and really think they've become more general in subject matter- but I understand that if they are not making a profit they won't be around long.

Fooling with rifles and hunting is just like any other hobby. There's us looneys and then there's everyone else. I used to be heavily involved in War Between the States reenacting. All my clothing and gear was made as perfectly correct as possible down to even the same stitch count per inch like the originals. When at an event I ate period food and slept either on or under an oilcloth depending on the weather. Now for every "hardcore" living historian like me there were probably 50-100 "mainstream" types that wore unauthentic uniforms and slept in tents or campers. Now us hardcore boys would complain about the "farbs" as we would call them and make fun of them, but the fact is that the mainstreamers were the ones that kept the hobby alive and healthy.

There is also a finite amount of matter that can be written about in this hobby. IIRC, Jack O'Connor once wrote that he had to repeat himself and had written up "How To Sight In A Rifle" about a dozen times. I think folks like our Mule Deer do an exemplary job in coming up with new subjects and new views on oft touched subjects. I've seen Brian Pearce criticized for writing up the same revolver cartridges a lot, but so did legendary writers like Keith and Skelton. By the time I was 12 or 13, I had both their favorite 44 and 45 loads committed to memory yet I always enjoyed and still enjoy reading everything they wrote.

All that being said, I wonder sometimes if the very face of our favorite pasttime is changing along with society. Someone must be interested in all that "Tactical" stuff. Of course, when I was younger I had to have a S&W M29 like Keith and a 32/20 like Skelton. I've always been goofy over single action revolvers and single shot rifles. Maybe what we like is a result of maturation or maybe it is just what we grew up with.

Rambling over.

As my interest in acquiring new guns has diminished and my interest in taking more hunting trips has increased I find myself drifting away from gun rags and moving more to hunting mags. I handload for all my guns but stop experimenting when I find the right load to propel a TSX of the appropriate weight into a reasonable group. I have allowed all but Rifle in the Wolfe series to expire. I don't know if I will keep it or not when the time to renew comes around. I still get Sports Afield, Hatari Times, African Hunter and African Sporthunting Gazette. These tend to be more about hunts and a little less about gear. I like the idea of buying off the rack when there is an article or articles of interest in the other mags. I guess at 58 I've figured out what works for me and just want more oppurtunities to apply it. I may be slipping out of loony status.
PS The prescence of sites like this on the net deliver far more info than you can get from the gun rags.

I�m not a kid and I�m not a writer (big Surprise)� I take most if not all the big offenders here and have for years� heck I have 3 years saved in containers in my reloading room. I have no complaints; I understand not every article will interest me� but in EVERY issue I find something of interest which justifies the price. If you don�t like what they print, send them a letter and let them know what you like� you just may get it... They have to sell subscriptions. If you just cancel they don�t know why and can�t fix it.

We have to expect the overlap between mags� there is only so much you can write about.

I used to get all the Wolfe pubs. I let them expire. Recently I bought a Rifle off the rack. After reading it I remembered while I let it expire. Mule Deer and 458 win are the only decent writers left there. 458win's article was about 10 words and Mule Deer's article on his 10 favorite rifles left me wishing for the kind of full write-up on one rifle that Seyfried used to do

Sports Afield is the only magazine I get now and it isn't really a gun mag.

SUCCESSFUL HUNTER also isn't a gun magazine. Instead the rifle aticles appear in RIFLE and HANDLOADER.

I guess you didn't notice that almost all the rifles on my top 10 list had already been covered in more detail previously in various articles in R & H.

Actually I have thought about picking up a SH again, although it is sometimes hard to find in my corner of Wyoming. I'd especially like to see one now that you (Mule Deer) are the editor.

It had been quite awhile since I looked at a Rifle or Handloader so I probably did miss the full write ups. There's a good reason though why I missed those articles; the mags went so far downhill it wasn't worth the price.

I am well aware that the rifle articles appear in RIFLE and HANDLOADER. But thank you for the sarcasm. I appreciate/enjoy most of your writing, but your above paragraphs ain't luring back to Wolfe.

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, just pointing out a fact, mostly for the benefit of others who might not have opened the magazine. You didn't sound like you were going to re-subscribe to any of the three mags anyway. Over time I have learned not to waste time trying to persuade people to do something they obviously don't want to do.

Guess they could always start their own magazine.

Then they could do it "right"...

DN

Most of the time when I get home with the magazine I am reading for 10 min or so then I got all I could out of it!!!

Looked at the newest Rifle mag and read Haviland's longrange elk hunting piece.

No mentions of ballistic and environmental data accounted for when shooting. What about PDA software, and windmeters, humidity, elevation, station pressure, and cosine angle indicators.

He looked like a fool when advance rifle men and snipers read that little piece.

Leupold Boone and Croket reticles. Ha Ha. Is that what he wants to use.

Range it, calculate it, click it, send it = dump it.

"No mentions of ballistic and environmental data accounted for when shooting. What about PDA software, and windmeters, humidity, elevation, station pressure, and cosine angle indicators."

Geez elkcreek, are you still hunting with such primitive gear? How quaint. No remote sensing, no satellite data, no infrared targetting, no radar? You're still hunting inside the horizon? And you call your self a modern hunter? Harrumph.

(Rocky faints from the irony. . . .)

Actually, I suspect John Haviland has more experience at shooting at really long range than 99.5% of hunters. Thus he knows that math is great, but that there are a lot of variables that math doesn't cover, such as variables in the wind between here and there, and how much a single step by an elk can affect shot placement.

John, by the way, once shot a prairie dog at 1300 yards in front of several witnesses. (The range was confirmed by Leica laser.) And that was with a .22-250....

The only mag that I stopped purchasing was Shooting Times. I always read Rick Jamisons articles on reloading and when he was gone I lost interest. I still get Handloader and Rifle, and ignore most of the adds because I buy them for the articles. I usually read articles from Mr. Barsness and Craig Boddington with great interest. I appreciate their no-nonsense type of writing. The only publication I am dissapointed with is Petersens Hunting Annual. When I first got these in the early 80's there were stories on hunting all over the world by all of the best writers of the day. Now it is nothing but Deer Hunting. I still look at those old mags by the way. Some really good stuff still in there from Finn Aagard and Bob Milek.

Su 35, Rat Rod Mac, Rocky Rabb, and Mule Deer are all on target.
My question to all of the magazine bashers, is Why?
This a Gunwriters Forum, where gun and hunting writers visit, to share their experiences and knowledge, and interact with us others. We, me included, profit from them being here. They come here out of the goodness of their hearts, and make no money by coming here. They all currently write for gun and hunting publications, or did so in Dogzapper's case. These writers derive their source of livelihood from publications that you guys are destroying by the incessant bashing that goes on REGULARLY here on this very same Forum that the writers visit. Why????????? Do you get some inner satisfaction by destroying a man's source of livelihood? And, don't give me any constructive criticism nonsense. None of the above posts were constructive, they were destructive, except for those guys I mentioned above. You are biting off the hand that feeds you... Or, are you trying to have this Gunwriters Forum removed from 24 Hour Campfire by driving ALL of the gunwriters away? We've already lost a large number of gunwriters who used to visit here regularly by treating them badly.
For your information, gun and hunting magazines are an important part of our infrastructer. I don't want to see them destroyed. Rather, I am of the position that we should do everything in our power to have these magazines excel, along with the guys who write for them.

Don

Edit to add: FC363 posted while I was typing. His post is responsible too.

Actually, negative criticism here isn't destroying the magazines I write for. All thre Wlfe magazines continue to increase in circulation and are quite healthy.

It is claimed that the Internet is where "real" information is these days, but this in itself must be loked at critically. Despite all the gun-rag bashing seen (which appears to repeat itself as new Campfire members sign on, without any knowledge of the long history of gun-rag bashing here), I doubt paid circualtion is affected. It's probably more related to the quality of the magazines themselves.

This also applies to other things. The Nosler AccuBond has been bashed repeatedly on the Campfire by some (not all) members, yet is the best-selling Nosler bullet.

JB, not one poster "got" one of my posts above.

About once a month, somebody will post here and complain about how repetitive the monthly magazines are.

Even my Momma's cooking wasn't as delicious as that bite of irony.

DMB, I got the thread started, and so I think it time for me to chime in as to why I started it.
I cam from a background heavily teeped in reading, research, and hands on experince in shooting guns. The guy that was like a mentor and brother to me ( look here http://www.msnusers.com/JWHamrickfiles
for some info on him if you like)I worked with on a part-time basis for more than 10 years, and with another tactial-type shop too, and during that I gained alot of knowledge....then just sort of lost intrest, fo rabout 10 years! I got back in in 2000, and so most of my knowledge, besides having a really big chunk missing, is based on older info and stuff, so as before, I began to read and research. Eventually, I stumbled on to Wolfe publications, which led me here.

now the reason I bored you with that is to let you know at no time would I ever deny a man his livelihood! I take some umberage to this statement. In other threads wherein people whine about Wolfe stuff, I have suggested that if they feel it sucs that bad, then please, submit your articles and make it better. I am betting that none have, and yeah, that includes me.

When doing that research as I mentioned above, I have noticed a few things about most gun mags, and I think it is pretty sucky. Many have fallen prey to being under one big umbrella. I will name one in particular and that is PRIMEMEDIA. That is disturbing because they are little more than just commercials. If you spen $500+ on a gun these days, would you want it to be a piece of crap? Could you depend on many of the publications out there to tell you so?

That was the reason for the posting, so if you don't like the thread, feel free to not add to it.

All the best,
Bruce

You have made some excellent points. However, I agree with many that the overall quality of gun mags has declined & I am sure it is due to the small amount paid for the average article published by many of these publications. This was explained by JB some time ago. It appears that either the publishers have more articles available(however, poorly written & researched) from writers than needed or simply do feel that writers should be adequately paid to prepare well written & researched articles. This is why I stopped subscribing to most hunting mags other than Wolfe publications. Perhaps, why the topic continues to reappear is the elites attitude by some. Gun mags contain technical information beneath them,rifles can only have McMillan stocks & Leupold or European scopes, & utilize the latest bullet loaded to maximum pressure or beyond. This is not to say I'm not at least partially guilty since I use Leupold & European scopes,handload, & own one McMillan.

I enjoy reading Handloader, Rifle Shooter and Rifle. I have always enjoyed John "Mule Deer" Barsness articles. Especially the Rifle articles Rifles for Big Deer and Practical Accuracy and Trajectory. Since I am a huge 308 Win fan and user, I especially enjoyed the Handloader piece Why the .308 Win is Great, Versatility! Thanks for the great work John.

John, do you still have your beloved FN Mauser in 270 Win w/ Gentry mounts? Bet you do.

I also enjoy reading Jon Sunda a great deal as well, as he has a great sense of humor and is a dyed in the wool bolt-gun rifle crank. He always comes up with excellent comparisons among cartridges and rifles and experiences in general. In the end he always spins a light hearted "don't sweat it to much" attitude about it all.

The rest of the rags are not really my cup of tea. I glance and catch a piece here or there, but the above rags mentioned are all I read anymore.

This post strays somewhat from the main topic of the thread, but, I, for one, am glad to see the magazine writers write on here. I just wish they would do it more often, and that more would join in.

In my teens, Jack O'Conner and Warren Page were the top writers of the day, and I always imagined them as rolling in money, with rooms full of custom rifles, and safaris and hunting trips to exocitic places planned years in advance, with the best guides and outfitters, of course.

To me, these writers were larger than life, but now, I have come to the conclusion that they put their pants on one leg at a time, the same as I do. I guess they did, anyway.

It is refreshing, for me at least, to read Mule Deer's and others post, to see the human side of their lives. It is difficult for me to imagine a gun writer having an everyday life, meaning bills, insurance payments, house payments, wives, kids, parents and all, just like the rest of us.

I believe the Americans born between 1950 and 2000 will go down in history as the most spoiled, self-indulgent, demanding whiners in world history. (I was born in 1951, so I say this with some generational shame.)

This topic is a classic, akin to complaints over the .325 WSM, .338 Federal, and every other new development in outdoor craft that does not precisely meet the criteria of one of us self-appointed experts.

I am staggered at the amount of bellyaching that goes on because some aspect of the unprecedented abundance we enjoy doesn't exactly meet our personal expectations.

So here's my recommendation: If you find fault with the .338 Federal or some other cartridge introduction -- don't buy one.

If you find fault with Handloader -- don't buy it; don't read it.

If you find fault with Barnes TSX's -- shoot another bullet; they'll mostly all kill something.

If you find fault with...well, I'm guessing you get my point by now.

What this country, and frequently the shooting and hunting sports, need the most right now is a great big can of STFU.

Thank you for your time and consideration .

DN

Very well said Muledeer.

1234567,

When I first moved to the small town where I live 17 years ago, we started accounts at the local bank. One of the tellers told her husband that a hunting writer had moved into town, because he read all the magazines. When he found out who, he said, "He wouldn't live here!"

As if we wouldn't live in a small town with good hunting and fishing all around? Since then he has become my best friend in town, and has definitely found out what an average guy I am....

muledeer I am slightly older than you and agree with your assessment completely. I have bought Rifle and Handloader for decades � still subscribe � and see no reason to stop. The bitching does get unreal.

John, I must say while there's a place for forums like these it's more satisfying (to me) to read the printed word on, well, actual paper that doesn't talk back at you!

There will always be a place for magazines and books... 1's and 0's lack a certain tactile quality that the printed page offers. Too, finely crafted thinking put into words, while possible on an internet forum, is less likely... as we all know too well (grin).

If anything, I wonder whether the internet has fueled the growth of magazines like Wolfe offers in a Ludite sort of way?

Who knows...

There will always be a place in my heart and mind for magazines and books, (well said, Brad). I enjoy reading the printed word better than reading a computer screen. I currently receive all three Wolfe mags, plus RIFLESHOOTER, SHOOTING TIMES, GUNS AND AMMO, and OUTDOOR LIFE. Once in a while there might be an article I feel could have been done better, or even shouldn't have been done at all. But there's also a bunch of articles that I really enjoy. When any of these mags get to the point that I feel they are not worth it anymore; Then I'll just FAIL TO RENEW.... As was pointed out earlier; If you don't like it, don't buy it anymore.... 'Nuf said....

Besides, who runs high speed Internet into their "reading rooms" for that more contemplative moment. Not to mention the weirdness of trying to carry on an electronic conversation with an audience watching!

John, you write like my Mass Media professor wished we would have. And she was very good.

I'm viewing this thread from having been born in 1934, and I don't like what I see.
Good posting DN.

Don

Of course, what is also going on here is the repetition of a pattern.

Over six months or a year, new Campfire members sign on. Eventually they notice that there's a forum called "Ask the Gun Writers." They see this as a great opportunity to complain about gun magazines, not knowing that this pattern has already repeated itself several times over since the forum was created.

I suspect many of them think this is a sophisticated thing to do, since it implies that they (the complainers) know an awful lot about guns, more than any bunch of gun writers could ever know. And maybe they're right!

Two, the very nature of Internet chat rooms tends toward bitch sessions and brag-fests. This is apparently the nature of mostly anonymous mass "communication."

I am always very grateful when the majority of Campfire members come to the rescue when this pattern repeats itself yet again. One of the things that distinguishes this site from most others is the civil (and even jovial) exchange of ideas, without the acid often seen elsewhere. Personally, I joined up here to find out what my fellow rifle loonies were thinking, and it has been a great privilege to be accepted in the community.

I think we need to start a new thread called "Sucky Internet Posters", about internet posters that come onto a forum that is totally free, where they can communicate directly with some of the leading gunwriters in the country and then act in a rude manner towards those gunwriters.
Perhaps MTV would be more apt to hold their interest.

Royce

Like most magazines, there is a lot more chaff on these forums than wheat, one simply has to have the knowledge, time and experience to sort it out.

One reason some people don't like gun magazines is that there is only so much stuff they can write about. I've been reading them since 1960, and obviously they repeat a lot in that time. Newer readers would feel differently.

Usually I'm only interested in about half the stuff in any particular magazine. That's fine. No complaint. I just don't read the articles about the 3276th variation of .45 auto pistols.

My real complaint is that the articles are way too short. A previous thread explains why they have gotten shorter. Nevertheless, I wish some were longer.

I've been reading this and I feel compelled to respond (not that anyone cares), but it will make me feel better.

First, to the writers. I truly appreciate you guys posting here, and I can understand how stuff like this becomes tiresome to you, but its only because people care (for the most part, I think). The fact that people are complaining means they're reading, which is good for your bottom line. I do think its unfair that you are taking the heat, but apparently your bosses are above all this, they should be the ones responding here.

As to the "problem" of repetitiveness, I have to disagree with that. I will confine my comments to Wolfe publications. I can think of topics that haven't been covered, lots of them. I don't know how interesting they would be to everyone else, but there are other topics.

As far as previously covered material, the problem isn't recycling, its the fact that the same 10% or so of material keeps getting recycled. If you read through the old magazines, you'll see theres so much stuff that could use a fresh perspective. Why not recycle something that hasn't been written about for 2 or 5 or 15 years? Exposing the "newbies" to stuff outside the "mainstream" might keep them around longer than their current subscription and it might bring lost readers back.

thanks for your listening Tim

Maybe the next round of "Awful Gun Magazines" should get shifted to the "Hunter's Campfire" forum. Wherever else, it doesn't belong in "Ask the Gunwriters;" do we really expect the writers to say something like, "I don't want an editor from x or y magazine ever to consider buying an article from me in the future?" That's what agreeing with this topic and naming names amounts to for a writer - their mortgages and families.

I suspect in some cases over a glass of single malt we'd all learn something, but in public? The phrase "Don't s**t where you eat" comes to mind...

Quote from Brad:

"John, I must say while there's a place for forums like these it's more satisfying (to me) to read the printed word on, well, actual paper that doesn't talk back at you!"

I look at the forums as a place to have casual conversation with the writers, much as you would over a camp fire or at the rifle range.

I see the magazine articles as written and read at a 'distance,' meaning there is no personal interaction between reader and writer. Sometimes, when reading an article, I find myself wanting to ask something like, "But, what if...?, or "Where did you buy that? I have never seen one..." things like that.

It might be there, but I have never found it, but I have have never seen in a magazine how to get directly in touch with a writer by phone, mail, or even e-mail.

A short while ago, after I joined this forum, I wrote Mule Deer a PM, because I wanted to make a suggestion for an article. I had been wanting to contact him about this same article for about two years, but I didn't know how to do it.

I am just naturally nosy, and sometimes I would like to know more about various writers, such as where they live and their other hobbies and interests. I can understand not giving out their place of residence because of privacy, but I am still, well, nosy.

elkcreek:

You have shown your complete lack of elk hunting knowledge and skill by suggesting there is time, when shooting at an elk, to make wind, humidity and other calculations and then �click� it into your scope.

Here�s a little sometime for you to do � write an article on game shooting and post it here. I would love to critique your expertise.

By the way, I don�t like being called a fool.

John Haviland

You mean you can't?

I agree, Royce. I would hope that the PM's the writers receive are in better manner than are witnessed on the open forum....
The golden rule goes a long way.

I would venture to say that Mr. Haviland has probably eaten more elk than you have ever seen on the hoof.

So, why don't you dazzle us with your expertise on long shooting

the great wapiti by providing some articles,research, pictures, and/or other

proof to support your contentions before you start calling a man of known, proven, hunting,

shooting and writing ability a fool.

bonehead comments for sure!

Hekc, if I had all that information, I wouldn't bother going out and hunting--I'd build an elk!

"No mentions of ballistic and environmental data accounted for when shooting. What about PDA software, and windmeters, humidity, elevation, station pressure, and cosine angle indicators."

If I had all that data, I wouldn't write an article about elk shooting, I'd write a book about global warming, expose Al Gore for the fraud that he is, and get his Nobel prize taken away.

Aw, c'mon guys, give ol' elkcreek a break. He took a course once upon a time from Shawn Carlock (google it) and knows all about elk hunting. You see an elk about a half-mile away, then you unpack your spotting scope, rangefinder, slope instrument, weather instrument, data book with your load, and your rangecards or your PDA running ballistic software.

THEN you get out your voodoo dolls of both Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor and stab them with pins to stop them from spinning in their graves (which would upset the gravitational constants plugged into the PDA). Eventually you take a shot. It's called elk hunting.

--Bob

Great One

One fine snowy day when I was guiding deer and elk hunters in Wyoming my client and I ran into a couple of dudes in the timber, and stopped for a chat. One of them was carrying some variety of .300 magnum and had it topped with a Leatherwood sniper scope. He insisted we all look through it, and extolled its virtues and capabilities ad nauseum.

Finally, I aked him what he would do if a bull appeared on the furthest ridge we could see through the snow. "Well," he said, "I'd place these circles on the elk's body until one matched its chest depth, then I'd twirl this dial..." At which point I started laughing. Appearing slightly offended, he snapped, "What would you do?"

"Shoot the bugger!" I replied. "He would only be about 200 yards away."

Point being -- gadgets can be handy, but nothing trumps hunting experience and shooting skill. Period, end of story. Way too much emphasis is given to gadgets on TV shows and in the magazines -- because that's what the majority of the target demographic demands. If you want "better" hunting stories -- subscribe to magazines providing what you want -- advertisers adn editors will get the picture quickly if, for example, Grey's Sporting Journal suddenly tops a million subscribers. Rifle and Handloader are doing well because there is a demographic that wants a higher level of insight, and generally we get it. Successful Hunter is kind of a new breed, a mix of techno-weenie fixes and Me-and-Joe-went-to-Africa stories, so the subscriber jury is still out, I think. I like it, fwiw.

Mr. Haviland -- I suspect most of us might have a clue as to who the fool is... .

JB -- I remember some of the letters, phone calls, and grocery store aisle confrontations I had when I wrote a weekly hunting and shooting column for a daily newspaper. That was in the middle years of the '80's -- I shudder to think how much "input" my readers would be able to give me now, were I still so engaged. You have my sincerest respect for being so affable and tolerant .

DN

I have started not paying attention to certain types of complaint or negative posts.
For me the various gun magazines will always atract me. I grew up in a small town and we did not have the extra cash to buy me a magazine. It do not matter because their was two places that filled my quest for this written word that would allow me to see beyond this small Texas town. The barber shop was one. The barber shop had two benches, one along each wall that had a scattering of outdoor mags laying in them. I was in no hurry for my turn in the chair (although I did like the warm shaving cream on the back of my neck) so I could have longer to read. The other was a Safeway grocery store accross the street from church. We would buy groceries on Sunday and I would bolt straight to the magazine rack.
I have enjoyed this compulsion all my life. I may never have seen some of the wonderful places I have seen without knowing of how to make a proper dream. Maybe sometimes I think we all need to sit on the bench in the barber shop and chill a little while we are taking our turn in line and remember what it was like before we knew what the word marketing ment.

Elkcreek
Don't let these guys give you a hard time. Here in Montana one of the biggest reasons people don't get their elk is from incorrectly estimating station pressure when shooting at an elk. It was the main reason the elk season here had to be extended two weeks this year.
Also, speaking from personal experience, a couple of years ago, I missed an elk at about 60 yards and at first blamed it on my own excitement. I did kill the elk (lucky shot) and while glancing at my PDA as I waited for someone to show me how to gut it, I noticed I had misread the cosine angle!!!
GPS has been a god send for hunting in timber for elk, because I can get at a certain elevation and just hunt along that contour. Then, when I jump an elk in heavy timber, all I have to calculate is station pressure, cosine angle and humidity before I shoot. I often hunt with my iron sighted 32 Special, so after I do my calculations, I just take a stone and drive the wedge under the buckhorn sight to the correct position, and Viola! I am ready to shoot.
Elkhorn, you should cut John Haviland and John Barsness a little slack, though. They spend so much time hunting here in Montana and throughout the world that they don't have the time to watch hunting videos and talk to someone's brother in law who's neighbor's stepson's parole officer's garbage collector who REALLY knows all about long range shootiong and elk hunting.
By the way, thanks for refering to John Haviland as a fool. That little tidbit in your post tipped me off that you were a classy knowledgeable shooter and hunter that I should pay attention to. Many posters probably do not fully appreciate your efforts to run off the gunwriters so we can let the real experts (you can take a bow here) dispense some REAL knowledge.
Royce

Nicely done... .

DN

ps...what the flick is a cosine? I thought that was the naive relative you conned into helping you get a car loan...?

I think you're right, but to be more specific, isn't it the naive son or daughter of your aunt or uncle?

muledeer
Ya see, this is why you'll never be a gun expert. If you had taken high school geometry, you'd know that cosine is something along the side of the ankle. And if the cosine is squared, you got tangenitis.

OK...that clears it up. Must be one of them Creedmore positions...

DN

posted by Mule Deer:
Of course, what is also going on here is the repetition of a pattern.

Over six months or a year, new Campfire members sign on. Eventually they notice that there's a forum called "Ask the Gun Writers." They see this as a great opportunity to complain about gun magazines, not knowing that this pattern has already repeated itself several times over since the forum was created.

I suspect many of them think this is a sophisticated thing to do, since it implies that they (the complainers) know an awful lot about guns, more than any bunch of gun writers could ever know. And maybe they're right!

Two, the very nature of Internet chat rooms tends toward bitch sessions and brag-fests. This is apparently the nature of mostly anonymous mass "communication."

I am always very grateful when the majority of Campfire members come to the rescue when this pattern repeats itself yet again. One of the things that distinguishes this site from most others is the civil (and even jovial) exchange of ideas, without the acid often seen elsewhere. Personally, I joined up here to find out what my fellow rifle loonies were thinking, and it has been a great privilege to be accepted in the community.
_________________________
JB

Sir,
I have to say that as the original poster of this thread, I take umberage with your statement, and in fact consider it a bit of an affront. Why do I post here or come here? Ain't because I figure y'all just can't do without my wisdom. I do it to LEARN, and in fact am lookign for YOUR wisdom. My knowledge is limited to hunting in the Southeast. That is so very unlike hunting is other areas, that in an honest effort to LEARN other viewpoints/techniques, and perhaps apply them to my hunting, I come here. As to guns, I have been so very blessed to get to own and shoot both some things that would make many of y'all's mouths water, and to also own and use some items that are quite odd or unique, and also gotten to spend quite a few years in the retail end of things, even getting to meet a few great writers/experimenters of the 70's (that so-called "golden Era" waxed poetic by complainers), so while I do have a very solid foundation of firearms knowledge, I am no expert and again, this site in particular has been a valued resource in my efforts to further my hobby.
Thus to label me as a whiner or thinking that I started this thread as and extension of my ego is just flat wrong. In fact, I have defended Wolfe publications in other threads - in fact, the inspiration for this thread was that I read another thread that was talking about Wolfe publications going downhill. In there I took the time to state, as I do now, that if they did not like it, they were free to change it by taking the time to write and submit some articles them selves. In fact, the only specific items that I complaind about, IIRC without researching this, was that there are those magazines out there that "review" a firearm without ever firing it, or at least not enough to make a proper review, and the one time I can recall this ocurring at Rifle, the guy who did it had the cajones to say tht he did, and also to let all know whey it was done that way. Wolfe going downhill? No, don't think so. Changing, as inevitably as all things do, but such is life, and I like the quality of most of the articles. Heck, I even gleaned loading info for a 71/84 Mauser I have - how often you going to get that in other publications???
Now maybe I am just getting my fanny on my shoulders when I read that above, because I tend to be a bit blunt and alot defensive, so if I offended then I apoligize, but the intent as I started this thread was not to bash, especailly the writer(s) of a publication whose periodicals I covet and hold right beside the gun cabinet itself.
_________________________________________________________________
Bruce B.

Do German rangefinders work in the US? The Germans talk about something called meters and I have only used yards so far. Has anybody used meters to shoot a big game animal? Did you have positive results.
Also do metric cartridges have higher or lower pressures when used in the states?

German rangefinders work just fine anywhere - but the number they display is the distance to Paris.

However, when hunting south of the equator you must account for bullets spinning in the opposite direction than when north of the equator.

At least that's what I told my PH when I missed a "gimme" shot on a blesbok .

DN

when below the equator are uphill shots really uphill?

I think thats just the Western model, the Eastern model gives you the distance to Moscow.

Tim

And, youse guys MUST include the effect of coriolis forces in the region, and they vary from mountain to valley with the opposite effects below the equator also. To accomplish a shot, one must carry his high school algebra book along on the hunt, with the page turned over at the cosine.

Forget the cosine-what's a PDA?

Give me a hint-is it closer to a GPS or a BLT?

I think its a painin-da-a$$

Tim

3040Krag
A BMOC begins using a PDA on the way to becoming a VIP. Its a way of keeping track of the GNP, GDP, S&P, DJIA, AM or PM. You can IM or EM with them.

Man, I am so dumb!

Duuuuude. . . .

I stayed away from this thread hoping it would die.

Glad I came back, that is TFF . . .



BMT

FWIW:

Everything I Like about Phil, is displayed in this post, and this thread.

BMT

I shot my new B29 today, I'll up the pressure to 32,000 psi and watch it really fly!

I KNEW that I should have gotten a B-29 when I had the chance . . . .

BMT

almost done now


B29 is something called propriortary. Means ya gotta pay royalties to some hot shot gun writer.
Legend has it on the Internet it is called the BS tax. Has anyone heard this?

PDA - Perfect Dumb Azz.

This individual has such a reliance on technology that he is too bogged down to actually hunt. My father-in-law was once guilty of this. While Turkey Hunting, he had no less than 6 folding decoys, a deployable net (what are you really gonna net, anyway?) and nothing short of 12 calls, both on his person and gun!!!!
I told him to walk really carefully, and when he asked why, I told he if he fell over, he'd get gang-raped by turkeys, unable to stand up!!!

Is there turkeys in Europe? If not maybe we could send them some of our turkeys.
Any volunteers?

The B29 works great when hunting turkey decoys. There is full penetration without any board damage.

I need to find a new load for it though, something that will stretch
out there to 1,000 yards and yet keep pressures under 38,000 psi.

Any idea's?

I find that boolits made from depleted uranium have better sectional density so I always use them when I am hunting mooses and elks at ultra long range.

Personally I always prefer to use rifles with right hand gain twist in the northern hemisphere and the mirror image rifle which I will only shoot left handed is reserved for the southern hemisphere.

What is bothering me is this,classic newtonian physics do not accurately refect my trajectories at the relativistic velocity of my special long range loads,and all the dumb gun writers are woefully ignorant of even the basics of relativistic physics.


So..... When I am hunting at the equator,with my custom straight rifled rig,should I use the cosine of the angle or just make my caulations with linear equations?


Maybe if the gunwriters were smart like me,I wouldn't have to ask such basic stuff on the internet.

Britt

The B-29 is yesterday's news. The one I want is a B-29 AI!

Dang I never thought it would be possible to AI the B29. You learn something every day. Sounds kinds stupid to me.

But...but...but...AI'ing the B-29 gives you an additional 1.6% powder capacity, yielding a significant 0.4% increase in velocity.

My cosine got a tattoo when he crossed the equator, but when he went back it reversed itself.

Had not considered a straight-rifled barrel for hunting on the equator...damn...guess I better call PacNor again.

I am so grateful for what I have learned so far...please continue to enlighten us...

DN

When I crossed the equator,I never dreamed that the perfect answer was the B-29 AI with homodirectional rifling for long range equatorial elk.

But all the gun rags are intolerant of homodirectional rifling,no wonder none of us gifted people like them.

Britt

I just had a horrible visual. Homodirectional rifling should be kept in the "safe" for safety reasons!!!

Another problem I have encountered is boots not fitting in Europe that fit here in the states. Sure enough I looked inside the boot and it says in Europe the shoe changes size to another shoe size. Go figure



We have almost killed this thread, its leaking badly
another round of pivo to the room