Didn't Mule Deer write a piece comparing the 7mm 08 to the 7x57 in a "relatively" recent issue of Rifle, Handloader or Successful Hunting? I'd swear to it, but can't find it in my back issues. Am I dreaming this??

Want to say April 2007?

It has a picture of two Ruger Redhawks on the cover.

The article I'm thinking of wasn't exactly a comparison of the two. But he talk about it a bit.


Travis

Sounds about right. I'll see if I canfind it. Thanks.

You may be thinking of the article that John Haviland (a.k.a. "Elk") wrote on the 7x57 in the April 2008 issue of Handloader.

Well, as it turns out, JB does mention the 7mm-08 in that 7x57 feature story in the April 2007 issue, and that may be what triggered me. But- for some reason - I keep thinking there's a full blown feature out there comparing the two in depth - ballistics, loads, nuances - blah, blah, blah.

Might just be an overactive imagination...

I'm currently being urged to get a Ruger M77 in 7X57. What do you think a comparison of the two ctgs would find?

The 7 x 57 holds more powder and is faster, but only if you handload. Factory rounds are anemic.

That they are two of the most practical, wonderful cartridges that exist? :-)

-jeff

Do they make a 210gr for the 7X57---heh,heh.

Well, there's also JB's Feb 2008 article on the .280 AI in Handloader with a mention or two of the 7x57...

Not sure the 7x57 is faster - can you share your source for this? I seem to remember the 08 always being a little faster in every handloading reference I can find. Thanks.

Reloading manuals reflect the fact that the 7mm Mauser has a 46K CUP limit, while the 7-08 has a 53K CUP limit. Apparently there are too many pre-98 Mausers out there to risk publishing snortier loads. The 7mm Mauser has a trifle more case capacity than the '08, so if both cartridges are loaded to equal pressures, the bigger cartridge will edge out the little one-----and a little more visible with the heavier bullet weights.

In actuality, the biggest difference between the two cartridges is in their history. The 7 Mauser nostalgia dripping off of it, while the 7-08 is only about 30 yrs old. That kind of thing is important to gun looneys.

The 7-08 and 7x57 are so close to one another that the between-rifle variation is probably as much as the between-cartridge variation. And there isn't enough difference to matter to a hill of beans, anyway.

But some years ago, Ken Waters did a Pet Loads write-up on the 7x57, and then another on the 7-08. He had, as I recall, a Remington 700 with the same barrel length for each caliber. He found across all bullet weights that the 7-08 got slightly higher velocities for the same pressure signs than did the 7-08. He was surprised by the result, as was I when I read it. I had always bought into the slightly bigger capacity/slightly higher velocity correlation. Maybe the case shape issue accounts for the difference, but maybe it was the between-gun variation. But regardless, no one I know is a meticulous and thorough a ballistics tester than Ken.

But whatever the case, there still is no functional difference between them. I have a 7-08 short action Remington, and a 7x57 in a Ruger #1 RSI, and think both are grand.

JB did a really nice article on "Modern 7mm's" back in August 2000 Handloader. It is one of my favorites. The 7x57 generates a lot of articles. More so, I believe, than the 7mm08. I have a Ruger M77 7x57 and am really pleased with it. I'd like to pick up a 7mm08 as well.

Utah: somewhere in those articles he mentions that published 7x57 load data must held to its SAAMI pressure threshold. No flies on Ken, here, in any way.

For reasons unknown but guessable, my hunting 7x57 beats out three 7-08s with the very same load. That shouldn't happen considering the little xtra case capacity, but who knows--throats, slight barrel dimension differences, chamber....I am just fine with it. Am a rifle slut, but wouldn't sell that one.

Agree with the functional side of things.

I think that the 7x57 can be an advantage in the longer action but not in the short action--to a careful handloader. Certain famous gunwriters may disagree with that...

What 222Rem said. More powder equals more speed in most cases.

Curious- where is this urging coming from? Might be more of an apt question here. Do you handload? To address your main question there is very little difference, to the point of no real world effect on game, between the two cartridges.

What I have found in handloading both rounds and in shooting factory loads in 21-22" barreled rifles is that there really isn't any practical difference. Even the "anemic" 7x57 factory loads chronographed within 50 fps or so of 7mm-08 factory loads, and in handloads the diffence is even less.

I might be wrong but can't the bullet be seated farther out in a short action in a 7mm-08 than a 7X57

I haven't seen a 7X57 in a short action yet. Plus they usually have long throats so you can get the bullet way out on them.

If you look at the original specifications for the two cartridges, they are more different than you might suppose. Part of the lack of recognition for that here in North America is the situation where even if a maker chambers a 7X57, they use the same barrels that they use (or would use) for a 7-08. In Europe you see makers and ammunition sellers continuing to supply a market that was originally for an intermediate length Mauser action and a barrel with a faster twist and slightly different chamber dimensions than is "normal" here for the 7mm rifles.

There is a lot more history in the 7X57 than many realize. I have an EF Heym commercial Mauser rifle that was originally a 7X57 that seems to call out to be restored to that chambering.

jim

Hmm, I wonder why would they need a faster twist?
Remington uses a 9 1/4 twist for all their 7mm's. That should shoot a 175 straight.

" I haven't seen a 7X57 in a short action yet"

Short action is a relative term. MRC short actions will take the 7x57. Most short actions will not.

so will nula's.

If the 175 is a round nose or semi spitzer, but perhaps not a VLD or ULD rebated boatail at 7X57 velocity...

Any differences in capability between the rounds in modern actions is basically a rounding error and a way for gun scribes to burn ink. Either one is a near perfect rifle for deer sized game, and OK for elk with the right bullet, without kicking the snot out of you in a light rifle. What more can you ask?

I've loved all my 7x57s, and particularly like the commercial Mauser I have now. For some reason, I've never bonded that way with my 7-08, which is a M700. Its accurate, its killed everything its been shot at cleanly, but I really only keep it around as a loaner and spare. Go figure.

This 7-08 vs. 7x57 discussion is nice and all.

But what I'd really like to know is the .243 Win. faster than the 6mm Rem.?

heck no!

I can't understand why the 30X57 niche remains unfilled.

0r the 45x57 or 50X57. One of lifes great riddles;)

Kevin,

The Mauser factory standard for the 7mm cartridges was 220 mm (or 8.66"). I think Remington is using 9.5" now for the 7-08.

jim

I posted these pics awhile back, they seem appropriate for this thread.



7-08/140grNPT vs 7X57/175grSP

MtnHtr

I don't own a 7mm-08 (had a new 308 tube screwed on) but have two chambered for 7x57.

I and some others had a good debate over this very issue here locally. We concluded that the 7-08 was for "bean counter" types and the 7x57 attracted those who appreciated its historical significance. Both will do the job equally well.

I love the 7x57, but the 10pt buck my brother shot with it last year sure didn't.

an old 8mm mouser hits harder and the ammos cheaper at about 4.50 a20round pack so wile you can shoot a charging bear with a 7mm-08 a shoulder hit will proble piss him off wile the 8mm with cheap ammo will leave it stumbling a round on 3 legs woundering wat hit it the gun i have will punch through a tree a foot&a half thick and keep going the 7mm-08 my friend had bullets busted about 2 inchs inside the tree dont get me wrong wile a dear would be dear would die easy from that a bad shoot on a bear with out enuf punch can be lead to a very painful death for a hunter be careful hunt safe make shure you have enuf gun for the you dear you planed on and the bear you dent.

Next time try english.

Hmmn, maybe the 70's were good for him...

The first deer rifle I was going to use was a milsurp Mauser (can't remember what country or if it was a '98 or not) 7X57. Dad bought it for me and we couldn't hit squat with it. I believe the barrel was pretty much without rifling by the time he got it. So it went down the road. I had a soft spot for the 7X57 ever since. Short version is that the last two centerfire rifles I purchased were in 280 Rem (for me) and in 7mm-08 (for Dad). Oddly enough I worked up a very accurate handload in my 280 with 139gr Hornady SPs that is well....like a stout 7X57 load velocity wise. Guess I got what I wanted...so to speak.

gratedrake1,

Can I please use this for my signature?

gratedrake1,
Welcome to the Campfire!

Funny thing is...if you find it funny. Thats the way all his 5 posts are written. Me thinks he means no humor in the lack of punctuation or spelling which makes it a bit hard to discern the humor or point he does mean to make, if any at all.

Karamojo Bell slew elephants with a 7 x 57.


Yuppies shoot 7mm-08s.

.

I personally know a lady that has taken the following with a 20" full stocked Steyr 7x57:

Africa: Blesbok, Bongo, Bushbuck, Bush Pig, Cape Buffalo, Cape Harebeest, Crocodile, Duiker, Gemsbock, Hippopotamus, Impala, Jackle, Kafue Lechwe, Kudu, Leopard, Lichtensteine's Hartebeest, Lion, Nyala, Red Lechwe, Sable, Sassaby, Sitatunga, Southern White Rhino, Springbok, Steenbok, Warthog, Wildabeest, Zebra.

N. America: Alaskan Moose, Barren Ground Caribou, Black Bear, Coyote, Elk, Pronghorn, Whitetail, Wild Boar.

Her husband developed the following loads for her:

For Deer/Antelope: 139 Hornady SP/ 54gr IMR 4350/ Win Brass/ Win Primer (2838fps)

For Elk, Moose, Bear, Lion: 160 Grand Slam/ 56grs Norma MRP/ Win Brass/ Win Primer (2797fps)

For Buffalo, Rhino, Hippo: 173 FMJ/ 51.5gr IMR 4831/ Win Brass/ Win Primer (2610 fps)

gratedrake1, thats some funny chit. is this guy for real?

280, That is an impressive list. But could you offer some proof that the 7X57 is an EFFECTIVE killing tool!

Nope!

That load looks like it could get a might warm ... Not sayin ... I'm just sayin ...

GE

Just kiddin, 280. I'm actually saving your post as I've got a 7X57 inbound and will try some of those loads. Gonna be a fun summer if the thing shoots OK. But it is a Rooger M77 and seems I read some iffy stuff about them. Did they have problems in the early days of the M77 in the 7X57?

Could be, don't know. Does seem a bit fast, but then I haven't yet loaded any 7x57, or worked with Norma MRP. Just relaying what the lady wrote in her book.

I bought a 7x57 in a M70 Featherweight a couple months back. Had major bedding issues but a smith fixed that real quick.

Shoots 145gr Grand Slams into an inch. IMR 4350 has em' movin' at around 2750fps.

Can't wait to do some killin' with it.


Travis

Art,

His rifles were .275 Rigby!

Also he shot only solids.

jim

Not sure about copyright issues...

But guess I could mark my next one 275 Rigby.

And we all shoot solids. We wouldn't let a soft pollute our 7mm barrels.


.

Is there a current North American manufacturer that makes a rifle chambered in 7x57 ? If so I haven't been able to find one. I guess I'll have to settle for the "bean counter's special" a 7mm 08. It's appropriate I guess since prior to my retirement I was an accountant.

From Speer #14 with 175 grain bullets...

7mm-08 Rem......... 2628 fps
7 x 57........... ...... 2596 fps
280 Rem............... 2644 fps

The difference between the fastest and slowest is less than 50 fps.

The 7mm-08 Remington barrel length was 24 inches.
......7 x 57......................................... 22
..... 280 Remington.............................. 24

Two inches in barrel length could account for 50 fps.

The 7mm-08 is loaded to 52,000 CUP.
......7 x 57................... 50,000 CUP.
......280 Rem................ 60,000 PSI.

The normal loading warnings are in writing along with a statement that normal U.S. maximum pressures for the 7 x 57 are 46,000 CUP but the Speer 7 x 57 loads match European standards and should not be used in Remington Rolling-Blocks or 93/95 Mausers. The 7 x 57 max loads 50,000 CUP pressures match 30-06 max load pressures.


.

I once owned two Rugers, one Model 77 tang safety and the other Mark II, both in 7x57mm. Both seemed to like 154 grain Hornady BTSP with Winchester 760. I later traded to a CZ 550 American in 7x57, and Ran into Ray here on the internet here who suggestd I try H414. The twist on the Rugers were 1x9.5 and the CZ was1x8.66. So, I moved up to the Hornady SST in 162 Grain. With Remington Cases, Frontier 210 primers, 48.3 grains of H414 powder, my choney was showing an average of 2,815 fps at an elevation of 7,000 in New Mexico. Groups were ging sub half inch at 100 yards and one group went .216 inch. With 160 grain partitions, this same load produced right around the same results. I had a one-shot kill on a nice bull elk at 325 lasered yards, mule deer, whitetail deer, black bear, antelope, javelina, wild hogs and even a wild texas turkey. No American manufactrer makes a 7x57 today. I think that is while all were trying to hype the 7mm short mags, there were too many 7mm on the market and the 7x57mm was a Euro Cartrige in the first place. You can still find them. GunBroker has a few listed right now, a few Rugers and couple of nifty Whitworths manlichers. In addition American Hunting Rifles will make you one up using a CZ action, a proprietary barrel and McMillan Stock. It is a great cartridge. Tom Purdom

Yup!

-jeff

Sure is a bunch of 7x57 fans on this site. Reckon I'm one of 'em.

I got me one of them little Brnos with the full stock, butterknife bolt, double set triggers and an old Leupy 4x Mountaineer on it. Kilt a bunch of stuff with it - up to and including a couple of elk.

Load good bullets, put 'em where they're supposed to go, and it's about all the rifle a guy needs.

7x57 or 7mm Mauser is a farmer's gun.

.275 Rigby is a gentleman's small bore.

Completely different rifles!

7 x 57 farmer or soldier

.

Count me in the 7X57 fan Club.....

Can I just buy a 7mm-08 - close my eyes and pretend it really is a .276 Rigby (or 7x57 depending on mood) when I shoot it?

Ruger makes the #1 in the 1-A and the RSI.


Travis.

NO!! Gotta have the real deal to be in this club. I don't get to join until next week. Then sit back and listen to my nostalgic stories.

280Rem,
When did your lady friend take her Cape Buffalo with the 7mm? I thought that the minimum was a 375 H&H? Did read that a gun writer (Sam Fadala?) got special permission to shoot one with a 30-06 due to a bad shoulder.

Love the 7 x 57mm it just works - no pretentions

She took it in 1985. I dont know about rules/laws on that. I know she had "big gun" back up. But she put the Buff down with the 7x57 alone. She wrote a book. "a little bit of magic" Journal of a Lady Hunter by Bobbie Wallace Parsons. The phrase "a little bit of magic refers to a judge friend of her's and mine when he said "The 7x57 has a little bit of magic".

Sometimes believe there are two sets of rules for hunting in Africa.

Foreigners paying outfitters and PHs are subject to one set.

Local hunters to a different set.

Nothing wrong with that and it would explain some of what I see and hear. Have had PHs tell me about shooting scores of antelope with 22 Hornets.

.

As shooters, we would never know the difference to tell. As deer or elk, we would never live to tell the difference.

Buy the rifle you like in whatever you like, then you will have honest bias.

JW

According to the specifications on the Ruger website, the rifling twist rate of their #1A rifles chambered in 7x57 is 1:8 3/4" RH. Here's a link:

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdSpecsView?model=1303

-

Both chamberings will do the job on appropriate game when using the
right bullet.The 7x57, which is usually chambered in a longer action, can be loaded with heavier bullets without compromising powder space nearly as much. But, is there really a need for a heavier bullet? I'm loading my 7/08 with 140 gr Barnes TSX - at close to 2800 fps from a 22" barrel- using Varget. One such bullet passed the LENGTH of a sizable northern buck. The 6.5 lb, scoped and loaded, Kimber Montana is a joy to carry and gentle on my bad wing. Bigger isn't always better, neither is more. Sometimes, just enough is just about right.

They are virtually identical in ballistics, but the 7x57 has the edge in heritage. I like the 7x57.

I have killed large animals such as elk, Cape Buffalo, and Eland with a 7x57. It is the mildest caliber out there that I would hunt elephant with if I had no other choices. I have witnessed the kill of a bull elephant with a 7x57 and RN military ball ammo with a heart shot and it was impressive, or perhaps I should say unexpected as the bull ran about 75 yards and died, the blood loss was tremoundous to say the least. I know a PH who has killed many elephants with a .308 and 30-06 with simular results according to him and I believe him, but all that aside I would rather use my 450-400 or .416....

The 7x57 with a handload can perform circles around the 7-08..My 7x57s have mostly had 06 length magazine boxes, and throated to accept a 175 gr. bullet seated to .284, that is a very long throat..As a result of this set up, I have in effect a 7x57 IMP as I have increased powder space the same as improving the round. I get 2900 plus FPS with a 160 gr. Nosler and an easy 2700 FPS with a 175, and have reloaded that brass as many as 14 times with several trims..The wonderful little Brnos Mod. 21 and 22 also have this mag box chamber set up..This also requires the use of H414..

In factory persuasion the 7-08 is the hands down winner because the 7x57 is underloaded by the factories to prevent frivilous law suits as there are a lot of poor quality war production Mausers out there, such as the Mod. 95 and 96.

Bottom line is the 7x57 has more powder capcity than the 7-08 just like the 6mm Rem has more powder capacity than the .243. on so fourth.

Well now, that's pretty damned impressive.

All of these loads are over maximum in all my Ruger 7x57s.

-

139 SPs at 2838 don't bother me in the least. I get 2875 with the bullet out of a 20" M7 7mm08.

By comparison, 160 Grand Slams at 2797 scare the heck out of me.

But to each their own.

GE

You've shot these in your M77s?

I'll have to check, maybe I misprinted, but I don't think I did. Agree, the velocity is a bit high, or so it would appear. However, I was just relaying what she writes in her book. If I get a chance to ask her about it, I will. I can tell you though, her husband is a very seasoned handloader and shooter, and knows what he's doing.

Hey #2, what about THAT! SMOKIN'!

My rifle with a 21 inch barrel will give me about 2940 fps with 49 grains of H4350 and the 139 grain Hornady. 50 grains of H4350 will almost do 3000.

I back it down to 48 grains of H4350 and use that load with 140s and 150s. That is with an Agentine Mauser action and there are no pressure signs.

The load I published earlier in this thread was a 140 NP at 2900 and change. But, I later found some load data of my dad's that ran 3000 with 139s. It used H4350 instead of IMR IIRC, but don't recall the exact load.

I don't think he ever loaded anything heavier than 139s/140s.

I had planned to use 140s pretty much exclusively, but I bought a bunch of Hornady 154s factory seconds. They group at about an inch and so far, I've killed two deer with two shots from them, so I can't really see why I shouldnt't use them.

First of all, please understand that I do not intend to "flame" anyone. There is too much of that already.

Many folks load over published maximums in the 7x57. The problem is we are in uncharted waters as there is no reliable published pressure data. This begs the question, "What is maximum?" We cannot go by velocity because the loads are not published. The loads shown here are about the same velocity as Hodgdon's published maximum loads for the 280 Remington, but the 7x57 case is smaller than the 280. I can only assume that this means the pressure is higher than the published maximum 280 loads.

My working maximum loads are aboout 10% lower than the ones listed here. Maybe some here think I am too conservative. Doubtless, I am more conservative than some folks, but I assure you that all the animals I have killed and targets I have perforated didn't care, and I still have all my body parts after 35 years of handloading for more guns and calibers than I can remember. Stretching a rifle to it's absolute maximum potential accomplishes nothing positive. If one needs more power than can be safely produced by a given non-magnum caliber, one should buy a rifle in a magnum caliber.

To answer your question, no, I have not shot these loads. During my load development, I arrived at maximum pressures well below the level of all these loads, so I stopped increasing.

-

True, but the guidelines for those 139 grain and 140 grain loads comes from the article written by John Barsness. He said that getting over 2900 from a modern rifle was no trick with that bullet and that one should be safe in that range.

I don't believe in turning a 7x57 into a 7mm Magnum, but it is a wonderful cartridge that can get you very close to what is possible with .280 with less recoil and significantly less muzzle blast. I hate muzzle blast and that is one reason I like the 7x57 and the 6.5x55 so much.

I didn't take it as a flame.

Hodgdon's data on most all calibers is usually on the conservative side. For the .280 it's down right anemic due to Hodgdon's conservative loading combined with SAAMI MAP being low for the .280Rem. The comparison, like you hinted at, is faulty as well, because all published data for the 7x57, for liability reasons due to the plethora of old firearms out there, is likewise anemic. In comparing case capacity of the 7-08, the 7x57, and the .280...the 7x57 should, with proper powder selection, be able to run 139s/140s at around 2900-2950 at around 60K psi. I have a pretty good bit of data my father compiled loading numerous 139s/140s in my brothers M77, all running 2900 right up to 3000fps with no problems, but then like you say there's no way to know the pressures . Somebody that wants to run a Quickload on it may can give a more precise prediction if they're so inclined.

Mule Deer in his 7x57 article last year suggested a max velocity of 2900 for 140s, and 2700 for 160s. 2797 for a 160, by comparison, would be warm but not nuclear IMO.

I agree.

And he specifically stated that the 139 grain Hornady was a very fast bullet and better than 2900 could be expected.

Yep, and likewise, due to it's shorter bearing surface, it's the fastest of all the 139/140 class bullets I've ever found to shoot in my .280Rem.

I have run the 7x57 with 139-140's at 3000 fps and 160's at 2800 fps in a long throated Ruger. I have a pressure trace and had used these loads for probably 20 years here in 100 degree weather before I tested them. They show 64000 psi, case life is almost forever, but it is a warm load only used in Win. cases and in a long throated rifle. There is probably no difference in effective case capacity between a long throated 7x57 and a short throated .280. That said, I have also had 7x57's that would show 200 fps more velocity than this one with the same loads. That is the reason for the wide variation in loads for this caliber.

64K psi, while warm, shouldn't give any modern firearm any problems.

Got a good 7x57 story. I was in northern NY Adirondacks hunting at my camp private club 9000 acre lease. Anyway was out w/ my 7x57 Ruger # RSI and took a good fall, hit the scope. Just to be sure I went to club gravel pit to fire a few. Bunch a guys there looking funny at my Mannlicher stock, short stubby gun. So I shot a few w/ my handloads still right on. One guy comes over and says hey what gun is that. Told him Ruger # 1 7x57. He said, Never heard of that one, but if I were you I'd get rid of it because that gun doesn't sound loud enough to kill a deer". I laughed thinking he was joking, but by his reaction I new he was totally clueless. True story, no BS! Anyway have owned both calibers and shot numerous white tails w/ them. I do enjoy the 7x57 for its history. I also enjoy my Swede too. All great calibers for handloading, hunting, and target shooting.

#5,

#2 be a fearin them proof loads sumthin mighty.

I'll just happily putter along somewheres in mid 29's out of my stubby Shillelagh and shoot up these 120gr TSX's I have laying around.

GE

Closed circuit to #5: This thread is the REAL reason 280's are better than 270's ... the same boolits are on hand to play with 7mm08's and 275 Rigby's ... Viva 7mm Express Death Cult! (and the derivatives: 7mm Paradise Death Cult, 7mm International Death Cult, etc ...)

7mmEDC #2

BOOYAH!

#5

I have tried the first load with the 139 grain Hornady in a couple of 7x57s,worked fine for me. One of them was a custom Mauser that I sold to Jim Parsons,the husband of the lady who killed all those critters with her 7x57.

The thought that it would be unsafe in the super tough Ruger 77s with their long throats and safe in a Mauser 98 with a shorter throat doesn't add up to me. Have you actually tried working up to this load? I bet you can safely get there. It is actually listed(I think) in the old second edition Hornady manual where it was tested in their Ruger M77.

The 7x57 is a lttle like the 45-70 in that published data varies a great deal in pressures and velocity. You have to look to older sources like the second edition Hornady to get loads that give top velocity in stong actions like the Ruger,many modern manuals ARE VERY CONSERVATIVE becase of antique actions like the old Remington rolling block which were chambered in 7x57 before 1900.

Britt

What was the year/month of the JB article on the 7 x 57?

Handloader Apr/May 2007.

Good Stuff.

GE

Thanks :-)

I understand that published data for the 7x57 is held to lower pressures than modern arms are capable of handling. But when we load above the level of tested data, we are on our own. Given that, there is no folly in being careful, or even conservative. I prefer to avoid dangerous ground. Life holds enough challenges without adding blindness or lack of other body parts. I do not feel challenged or threatened when someone else's handloaded ammunition exhibits higher velocity than my own. It is no trick to load ammunition too hot. I believe my loads to be at the top end of safe, and I will never encourage anyone to exceed them. In fact, I will not tell you my loads because they too are above published data and may not actually be safe, especially in someone else's gun. One load that I thought to be safe in one of my 7x57s proved to be an overload in another, causing difficult bolt lift and the primer to be very loose. But I will say that I have worked-up loads with the same powders and weights of bullets discussed in this thread, and I reached maximum pressure (about 60kpsi) by all indications well before reaching the loads listed in this thread.

We all make our choices. Good luck to you.

-

So...where published in any reloading manual is there reliable data that would allow the 7x57 to perform as it should perform in modern firearms like the CZ or Ruger? To me its wonderful that people have produced 2900 fps etc, but as a cautious reloader I like to have reliable data that tells me where I need to stop. I don't think that anyone wants to make the 7 x 57 into a 7mm Rem Mag, but it would be nice to have data that allows the cartridge to perform in what you might consider to be a more reasonable range given modern firearm steels and designs.

Jimmy,

Unfortunately there is no easy answer. Books and Articles entitled "Overloading the 7x57/7mm Mauser/.275 Rigby to 65K PSI" aren't there.

I treat "modern pressure metrics" (7x57 and 6.5x55 in my case) like wildcats. I use Quickload and check the estimated velocities and pressures against known loads and book data for cartridges of similar capacity in the same caliber. Application of JB's "Rule of 1/4" and testing with a chrony provides a sound reality check for load development.

If you don't want to play ballistic pioneer, that is totally understandable. Either kill LOTS of things with the 7x57 loads that equal factory performance OR shoot a 270, the passe' round whose performance we are all trying to equal with our 6.5's and 7's in the first place.

GE
7mmEDC #2

The text in my Speer manual #13 states that their listed maximum loads for the 7x57 are only to be fired in modern firearms or Mauser 98s in good condition (their test rifle was a Ruger M77). They also say to NOT fire the maximum loads in Mauser 93s and 95s, and not to exceed the starting loads in those rifles. IIRC, it says the industry maximum pressure for the 7x57 is 46kCUP, whereas their maximum listed loads operate at a maximum of 50kCUP. Is this not modern loading data? The loads purported previously in this thread are WAY above the maximum loads in Speer #13. I may exceed Speer's maximum 7x57 loads a little bit in my modern Ruger rifles, but not to the level purported in this thread.

-

The loads I reported from the friend of mine in her book are her loads, fired in a Steyr Professional. I also reported loads that my father loaded for my brother's Ruger (Tang Safety).

Those of you that have not read JB's article on the 7x57, and the loading there of, really should. It's not only a very good peice on the 7x57, but if you really read and understand how he works up loads for the 7x57 it will give all you "never exceed max listed loads" guys some new insight on handloading developing of loads. Its the way I've always developed loads for all my guns. The "max listed load" changes from data source to data source. The expected safe velocity/pressure level for a given burn rate of powder/bullet wt./bbl length is much more consistent. Loaded to the same pressure levels, a 7x57 with its higher powder capacity, will out run a 7-08.

To compare apples to apples from the Alliant reloading site:


7x57, 24" bbl: 160Sptz BT, 49grs R-19, 2665 at 45.5K psi.

7x57, 24" bbl: 139 SP, 51.8grs R-19, 2835fps at 49K psi.

7-08, 24" bbl: 160Sptz BT, 48.5grs R-19, 2675 at 56.7K psi.

7-08, 24" bbl: 139 SP, 52grs R-19, 2850fps at 57.9K psi

The 7x57 runs virtually the same velocity at 9K-11K psi less pressure. The same actions being used for rounds such as the 270, 280, 30-06, etc running 60K-65K psi will handle the 7x57 running at similar pressures. It's not hard to see how the data in this thread is within those modern, but safe pressure limits. I know from looking at QL data for my .280Rem, that a 10K increase in pressure fron the low 50K's to the low 60Ks is good for about 100-120fps with powders like R-19 and others similar in burn rate. So, it wouldn't be unreasonble to assume nearly that same gain by loading the 7x57 up to @57-60K psi. Which would put that 160gr load up around the mid 2700s and still well under 60K psi. Likewise the 139 at @ 2950 right at 60K psi. I've watched my dad and brother put more than a few 139s/140s down range from a 22" Ruger 7x57 at 2950+fps with no problems and good brass life. I know the lady that I posted about, and her husband that loads for her. He's very experienced and knowledgable in loading and shooting. She's used that gun and those loads for over 2 decades to take countless heads of game. No problemo! In her gun, I'll trust they must safe.

Bean Counters special or not...I really like the 7-08 and enjoy the accuracy and killing power of the "yuppie round", which can't be said for the many deer that the cartridge has killed with aplomb! Never had a 7x57, although I must admit that a Ruger #1 Light Sporter in that calibre would be fine...but better in 7-08!

Paul

According to Jon Sundra the 154 grain Hornady IL is a very tough bullet, any comments? He apparently has used it in Africa.

My 20-inch barrel 7mm-08 gets pretty good velocity
2,850 fps for factory 120-gr loads (3,000 fps from 24 inch)
2,700 fps for factory 139-gr loads (2,800 fps from 24 inch)

Do any of you shoot a 7x57 in a 20-inch carbine (Brno 22, Steyr, Interarm Mark X), and what kind of performance do you get?

interesting comment, I am experimenting with lower velocity loads in a .270 now. The 7 x 57 is intriguing as it is a somewhat "slower" round but one that can shoot heavier bullets I think and might have the ability if you can figure it out to shoot these heavier bullets reasonably fast(er) than a 7-08.

FWIW, I'm one of those people who are happy with the book velocities and the low pressures in my 7x57 handloads. I knew, going into it, that I wasn't going to look for more than that.

Also knew, that if I wanted more velocity from 7mm bullets, I would go with a .280 or a 7mm Rem. Mag.

I don't fret it. And I suspect there are others who are content with it, too.

- Tom

Lee,

My main 7x57 is a FN Venezuelan with a 18" barrel. It loves (legitimate .5 groups loves) 120 gr TSX's and 49 gr R15 at about 2950. At an OAL of 3.13 I get the Kismet of a full case of powder and .05 land jump in my rifle.

GE

I took a 7x57 and a 7mm Remington out culling side by side over a period of years. The 7mm Mauser racked up the highest number of instant kills using standard cup and core bullets.

Because these bullets are made generically to suit all cartridges within the caliber, they tend to work more as a premium bullet with the reduced stresses associated with the lesser, but still adequate to expand velocity ranges, of the 7mm Mauser.

It is simple really, and the same applies to the .308 Winchester, 6.5 X 55 Swede and the 7mm/08.

The classic history of the 7mm Mauser adds a little more in pride and perceived prestige which has nothing to do with efficiency or performance, it's just that little something more that most hunters gain a little extra satisfaction from.

JW

I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. It's about satisfaction. A lot of calibers will do the same jobs strictly speaking. It's the same reason I load my own ammo and mount my own antlers and build my own arrows. The last few deer I've killed with my longbow were killed with arrows that are fletched with feathers from turkeys I've killed. One of these days I'm gonna carve-out my own self bow and arrows and go kill deer with that. Effecient use of time? No, but it sure is satisfying to me to do these things. Call me a caveman.

-

Think it has been well established in this forum thread that the 7 x 57 is a fine cartridge with no shortcomings worthy of further discussion.

Now, is there anything the new-fangled yuppie 308 Winchester can do that isn't better handled by the 30-40 Krag ?

.

Not much inside 300 yards.

My Remington 700 Mountain Rifle gets 2930 fps with 50 grains of H4350 under a 140 grain Nosler Partition,I think that's about as perfect as it gets.The 7-08 is a good cartridge,but the 7x57 has more history and more class.