I know, not too original of a topic. I'm interested in buying a rifle that will be used in open country. Mostly very windy country as well. I hunt mostly for mule deer but would like to try my hand in a couple of years on caribou up north and antelope in Wyoming. I know that the 270 Winchester with 130gr bullets will probably do any of those tasks.

I'm just wondering if the 7mm Rem Mag with 140gr or 150gr bullets might be just a bit better? It seems like the 7mm bullets would fly just as flat or flatter than the 270 with 130's and drift less in the wind (bullet for bullet or BC for BC, no ballistic chart shinanigans). It also seems like there would be just a bit more whack on target with the slightly larger caliber with more bullet weight.

I want this to be the kind of rifle that can do-it-all if need be from antelope to elk. I use a 30-06 mostly for elk where my shots rarely reach 200 yards. My rifle seems to like longer bullets and I can only get decent groups with 180gr bullets. It seems like I'm holding pretty high at 400 yards to hit targets (about 25 inches) and wouldn't feel comfortable aiming that far over the back of a deer with it. Therefore, I've come up with a "need" for a new rifle .

I like both the 270 and 7mm Rem Mag and really like their availability when it comes to factory stuff if I need it. I want to pick the best option for shooting flat and possibly being a good backup for elk if worst comes to worst.

It depends. Do you also plan on hunting sheep? Want a light rifle or a heavier one? 22" barrel, 24" or 26"?

If you want light, packable and versatile, the 270 Winchester wins.

Either one. There really is no big advantage to the 7RM unless you are going with heavier bullets. For your stated purposes, the .270 would work fine for me.

If I wanted to go bigger, I'd go .300, but that's just me.

Split it and get a 280.

My advice is keep the .30-06 and get closer.

25 inch target is way too big.
Need to be hitting 10 inches every shot or you are too far away.

Most 7mm Rem Mags come in a lot bigger rifles that .270 Win, in case you don't like the extra 2 lbs of weight.

Compare a 140-gr .270, 160-gr 7mm, and 165-gr .30-06.
Not just trajectory, but energy at the target.

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/

Rifle weight isn't too much of an issue. I'm guessing that field-ready weight could be between 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 pounds. I'm more concerned with getting the best performance from the cartridge that I choose. This rifle would most likely be shot mostly from the prone over a rest or bi-pod at ranges between 200 and 400 yards. Where I hunt deer, shots at ranges less than 200 yards are fairly rare. Most shots range from 300 to 350 yards. I practice out to 400 yards.

With the 270, I'd likely choose a 130gr monolithic or 140gr bonded. With the 7mm, I'd most likely choose 140gr monolithic or 150/160gr bonded.

I think I'm asking a lot of this rifle. I don't want a true long-range rig because they just aren't handy enough to be as versatile as I need it to be. I guess that is why I'm looking at going with the 7mm Rem Mag to provide a little more confidence when my potentially personal best mulie isn't totally broadside at the 350 yard line and I've got a decent amount of wind blowing accross my nose.

This brings up another question. The canyons that I hunt deer in have wind that swirls. The wind might be blowing from left to right on my side but are blowing the opposite direction on the far side where the deer are. How do you shoot through that?

I'll keep the 30-06 for the simple fact that its great in the timber and shoots pretty well as long as I'm using 180gr bullets. It seems to like 57.5gr of H4350 and either a 180gr Partition or Interlock. This load using the partition has dumped some nice roosevelt elk. It does okay with the same charge and a 165gr A-Frame. At the 400 yard line, I shoot at a 60 inch piece of butcher paper with a 12 inch shoot'n'see target stuck in the middle. If I aim dead-on at the shoot'n'see, I'm only a few inches from being off the paper on the low side if I'm shooting from the prone. If I near the top of the paper, I can drop the bullets into the 12 inch shoot'n'see with groups that are a bit bigger than my palm but smaller than my stretched out hand, so I'm guessing the groups are around 6 to 8 inches or so. I just can't seem to find a handload or factory load that does this well with lighter bullets that shoot flatter. Well, besides Federal Gold Medal Match with 168gr BTHP, but I'm not sure how those would do on game. That factory load shoots awesome out of that rifle!

For a deer/antelope rifle I'd like something that cuts the wind and drops a few inches less. I'll probably go with a 250 yard zero and see if I can't hold on hair at 400 yards. That is my ultimate goal without the mid-point trajectory being super high.

As far as weight, my 30-06 is a Winchester M70 and it weighs 9 1/4 pounds field-ready. I haven't started cussing at it yet.

Sounds to me like you're about ready to graduate to a scope with dotz in it...

Also, what r you running for a range finder these days?

Thx
Dober

Dan,
270, 06, 7Mag,all will work and fit your needs well. Heck the 06 with the 180's you are shooting bucks the wind almost as good as anything out there and if you are shooting it as well as you mentioned in your post then why mess with another rifle.
If you want a factory chambering IMO any of the three you have chosen as options will work well for any of the animals you mentioned you are hunting. Any one of them with a Barnes TSX or TTSX would be extra special too. You mentioned your rifle likes long bullets. The solid copper bullets are a little longer than there lead core cousins and a 165 TSX in your 06 might surprise you.

Dave

I use a Nikon Monarch 800. They should really call it a Nikon Monarch 563 because that's as far as I can actually get a return on anything other than aluminium street signs. Its plenty good enough because I know what 600 yard deer look like. Way too far away for me to shoot. I wouldn't push a shot past 400 because I don't have the facilities to practice any further than that.

I have 3 scopes that aren't on a rifle that I'd consider for this rifle. I have a Leupold VX-II 3-9x40 with LR Duplex, Leupold VX-III with 4.5-14x40 AO with standard Duplex. I also have a Swarovski 3-9x36 with a standard plex.

I've been playing with the 30-06 and the 3-9x VX-II with the LR Duplex. It seems pretty simplistic. Zeroed at 200, the bullets strike a bit low of the first dot at 300 and between the second dot and where the stadia thickens at 400. I'm guess the LR duplex was probably meant for the flatter shooting calibers. Unless I move my zero closer, I don't see how the dots will do me a lick of good on the 30-06. They seem to be kinda nifty on an M700 in 243 using 70gr Ballistic Tips though.

RaceTire: I noticed that when comparing 150gr TSX with 180gr Nosler Partitions that the 150gr TSX was just about as long. Maybe you have something there. The local store got in some 30 caliber TTSX bullets that I thought looked pretty mean. I looked at some Barnes reloading data with the 130gr TTSX and the velocities look unreal.

My biggest concern is that a bullet that is light for its length seems like it wouldn't retain energy as well and worse yet, would blow around more in the wind. Like hitting a tennis ball vs a baseball. You can hit a tennis ball over 120 mph and it won't go nearly as far as a baseball at 100 mph.

I think I should quit reading gun magazines. I used to just hunt and not think about this stuff.

Federal Gold Medal Match is tougher than most people believe.
Besides, at 400 yards, it is not moving that fast.

If you are hand loading, why not try the 165-gr Scirrocco? It is a long bullet, high BC, thick jacket, retains weight. Same for TSX mentioned above.

Try the Burris Ballistic Plex scope. Get the hash marks figured out for your load, and with a rangefinder, no more guessing.

But a 165-gr from a .30-06, set 2.25 inches high at 100 yards, not very low at 300.

That Remington site lets you compare several loads at once, even mixing calibers.

You can always split the difference and get a 270 WSM...

Dan,
Now you are talking. As Dober so eloquently says. Load em up a "go fill an ark." If you shoot 150 or 165 Barnes TSX or TTSX in your 06 and get them shooting (start them at .050" back like Barnes recommends) you will be a real happy guy. Unless you are shooting over 300 yards and shooting in a pretty stiff wind I wouldn't be too concerned about wind drift. If you are holding shoulder or slightly behind deer facing left in a left to right 10MPH -15MPH wind @ 300 or less you won't even know and niether will the deer that the wind was blowing.

Dave

I have a couple 270's and a 7 Rem Mag. If I could only have one, it'd be the 7 mag, just because one can load heavier bullets for it. I use 140 gr for deer, 160 or 175 gr for elk. Mine has a 26" barrel on it, which I don't find to be a hindrance, and it has always shot really well.

IMO a 7 mag with 160gr bullets is a noticable power upgrade over the 270 Winchester when it comes to shooting Elk. A couple hundred fps faster with 140gr bullets is also.

The disadvantages of the 7 Rem mag is that you're going to burn a good bit more powder to get the extra performance. A 270 is an easier to shoot gun.

The 270 Winchester is a great round but I'm starting to prefer the 270 WSM over it because of the 270 WSM 150-200fps advantage with the same bullets and some of the lovely lightweight guns that are out there for the 270 WSM.

So since you have your 30-06 for Elk hunting of the two I'd go with the 270 Win since it's an easier shooting gun but I'd choose the 270 WSM over either of them. With the 270 WSM you can get the extra performance and a nice lightweight rifle...........................DJ

I thought about the 270 WSM and even bought a new Winchester M70 Extreme Weather in 300 WSM that I kept for two whole weeks. It sounds kinda strange or vain but I think the WSM cartridges kinda look goofy. They also don't seem to feed as smoothly as the longer, more gently tapered cartridges. The action on my M70in 30-06 is very slick and I love how smoothly it feeds. I'm pretty old fashioned in this sense. I've always had a crush on the 270 Winchester and a good respect for the 7mm Rem Mag.

[quote=Dan360]

I don't see how the dots will do me a lick of good on the 30-06./quote]



Hmm......

Dober

I agree with you, Dan. Too much reading of magazines can be hazardous to your judgment and mental health, especially when they are selling something.

You're on the right track caliber-wise and bullet-wise (don't forget NPts), but you might think about dots in the scope or twistin' to extend the range a bit, if that concerns you,

This is the direction I will go in first. It looks a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a whole new rifle. The winds in the area that I hunt are at their calmest at 10mph. If its a warm fall with a large temp variation, I can see winds that reach a steady 15 to 25mph. As the sun comes up, the wind picks up blowing up the canyon. As the sun goes down and it cools, the wind moves down the canyon. There have been times with a stiff crosswind that I've even declined shots at 300 yards. I couldn't get steady with the beating wind and sand. Thinking about it, I'm not so sure any other cartridge would be enough of an improvement over my 06 that I'd attempt those shots. I do intend to try to get better at doping wind though. I'm doing as much as I can to make myself a better shot because I'm enjoying shooting much more as I learn more about it.

.280 or .280AI. Standard length cartridge, can go bigger if needed, especially with the AI. Nosler loads for it and has head stamped brass. Ive got a .280 and an AI on order but I also have a .270. 7mm mag has a little more umph and more recoil than the 30-06. The other choices do not.
Lee

The 270,30/06 and 7 RM are all comparable cartridges with enough subtle differences between them to justify owning and using all three(for a rifle nut),and I do and have since the late 1960's.The 280 and 280AI can be thrown in the mix as well,but lack broadbased popularity and easy availability of factory ammo,important for someone who travels and hunts.

The simple answer is "yes",the 7 mag,with its' greater powder capacity,will push long 160 gr bullets to a bit under 3100 fps with good handloads,from a 24" barrel,and 140 gr bullets at 3200+.These combinations will both shoot flatter to 400-500 yards than anything you can feed a 30/06 or a 270 Winchester.

With such loads and optimum zero's you will be down no more than 8-10" at 400 yards,and about 2 feet at 500 yards.

I arrived at these numbers and conclusions not by reading ballistic tables,but by actually shooting these combinations at the specific ranges mentioned.

You can also load a 175 gr bullet to over 2900 if you want,and this will be a good effective load for about anything,including those elk at 200 yards and under.

None of this means that the 270 (or 30/06) are chump change,and the 270 gets shaded by the 7 mag for trajectory by about 6" at 400 yards and somewhat more at 500.

In this day of dots and turrets all this may seem irrelevant,but sometimes choosing between dots can be confusing in the heat of battle and requires precise knowledge of range;they are a legitimate adjunct to the hunt but there will be times when using an LRF may not be possible,and under those circumstances a flat trajectory can save a guys bacon;so there is room to use both,and a 7 mag can be zeroed to provide a longer PBR than any of the other cartridges mentioned due to its' greater powder capacity,and higher velocity.

If you want "almost as flat" in a lighter,handier,lower recoiling package,the 270,280,etc fills the bill,as does the 280AI,but most folks put 24" barrels on 280AI's,whereas the 270 and 280 do good work with 22" tubes.As stated above both the 280 and 280AI have limited factory ammo due to general lack of popularity,and this, to me ,is a handicap.YMMV.

I'd go with the big 7..you won't be disappointed.

I just got out the door with some Barnes 150gr TTSX in 30 caliber. I have RL 15, RL 19, RL22, IMR 4065, H414, H4895, H4350 and H4831 at home with lots of brass and primers. Gonna spend today and tomorrow (my regular days off) coming up with some loads for the 30-06 using these bullets. Depending on what the Barnes book and online loads suggest, I'm hoping to come up with a cheaper alternative to buying a new rifle.

Or, maybe I just want a new rifle.

Dan360..............Here`s a suggestion!......Go to the Hornady web site and see their "external ballistics calculator."

Take your possible bullets going to be used from the 270 Win and 7 RM, type in their MVs, BCs, bullet weights, your rifle`s zero, o/temps, etc & etc, and then compare their downrange performances in velocity, energy and trajectories. Jot down on paper exactly as it reads for both rounds.

This will give you excellent graph comparisons between these two rounds. From there, you can decide which one best suites the need for the hunting you`ll be doing.

If recoil is a concern, the 7 RM will have more recoil. But the 7mm also allows for heavier bullets.

If flatter shooting is a big consideration, you also may want to consider throwing the 270 WSM into the mix too. It averages about 175-200 fps over the 270 Win.

I have a 30-06 with a Burris 3X-10X-40mm Signature Select scope with the Ballistic Plex Reticle. Hornady Spire Point Interlocks or Swift A-Frame 165 grain bullets handloaded to 2900 fps match the reticle lines very nicely out to 500 yards. Swift Scirricos, Nosler Accubonds and Hornady Interbonds in the 165 grain weight loaded to 2800 fps also match nicely with the reticle lines.

Yes, you have the fever sir, you will not be happy until you cure it.
Since the new FN M70's don't come in 7 RM I would get it in stainless M700 or Vanguard.
Have the trigger replaced with a fine Timney and shoot 160's in the wind.

I'll throw my 2 cents in. I don't shoot mule deer but do shoot WT deer across fields at the ranges you mention. Any cartidge mentioned so far will work fine - the difference out to 300 yards is insignificant. At 400, the flatter trajectory of the faster bullets becomes evident and may be of a benefit depending on your needs and comfort level.

Having said all of that, I chose the 7RM. To me it is the ideal trade off between flat trajectory, ample power, and accpetable recoil in a light rifle. The 300's may hit harder but i have little experience with the 300 on big game outside of a handful of examples. I do know they recoil much more than a 7RM - and they don't shoot any flatter. To me, the 7RM with 140's sounds ideal for your intended purpose.

My own journey began and ended with a 7RM - but only after playing with various 300's and 338's along the way. I found that the recoil of a 300/338 was beyond my capability in a lightweight rifle. I started the 7mm journey in 1982 and came back 20+ years later to what I already knew worked. I'll bet I don't wander again <g>

Try a 270 with 110 grain Barnes TTSX or Nosler Accubond. It flattens things out considerably and shoots like a kitten. Smokes deer in the Federal factory load.

Dan360,

There is little difference between the 30-06 and 7 mag on game. The 270 is less effective than either. The 7 mag has the edge with bullets of slightly higher BC, and a slight edge in velocity. You would be hard pressed to tell which is which by their recoil. Get the 7 mag.

-

Dan,

You asked for opinion and even though I am not a gun writer I did stay at a Holiday Inn Exress last week so I will chime in. I don't think you need a new rifle unless your current 06 isn't accurate enough for long distance work. I think you need the right bullet for the task, and to learn how to use your 3x9 LR scope or perhaps a different one such as a a Leup. with B&C reticle or Zeiss Rapid Z 600. These later scope's reticle can help you cope with wind which is the hardest part IMO. For the distance you say is your limit I don't think turrets are necessary.

Step 1. get a 1000 168 Noslers for this reasonabl price for practice. http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0011565934

Step 2. work up a good load with Reloader Big Game or one of the 4350s that shoot less than 3 inch goups at 300 yds in your rifle. It should be getting around 2900 fps at the muzzle. This should be plenty flat shooting and very adequate for the game you mentioned.

Step 3. Practice with the Leup. 3x9 LR scope and the Nosler match bullets until they are all gone. If you read the scope's manual you can adjust the power to help compensate for trajectory not matching exactly or shoot a 500 yard group and adjust the scope to it.
(FYI I have a Conquest 3x9 Rapid z 600 and a friend has a B&C reticle in a 3.5x10. I also have the LR duplex in a FXII 6x that I used with effect at 433 yards this fall. I really like being able to hold on the target with a reticle but the LR dot is pretty course and pretty much covered the deer's chest. I think I will switch to a B&C for 2010)

Step 4. Practice shooting at paper plates at 300, 400 and 500 yards and not just on calm days. Get a kestral wind gauge so you know what a 5, 10 and 15+ mph winds feels like. If winds get much above that I won't shot at distance myself as they are rarely constant then. I know as i live in WY;) If you can't hit a paper plate at a known distance every time from an improvised or better rest with no adrenalin going and no stress from exertion how will/can you justify trying the same shot on game?

Step 6. When it comes time to hunt switch to a hunting bullet designed to open at long ranges like a Bergerl VLD 168, develop a load and confirm at all ranges and go get your wall hanger mule deer with your 06. You will proabably end up shooting the critter under 100 yards, but you will be a much better rifle shot after all this.

If this advice doesn't sit well with you go get a Sako A7 in .270, mount a hubble style scope of your choice, sight in 3 inches high with 130s at 100 yards and have fun. It worked for me for years.

Dump the idea of the .270 and 7RM.

Keep the '06 for its versatility and as a backup.

And enjoy the best of all worlds by getting a .280 Remington!

(esp if you handload)


the 7RM offers an extra 150fps MV, which means squat by the time you're approaching 400yds ..... if you shoot that far.

One poster suggested getting closer to your target to hit a 10in zone vs a 25in zone. Excellent advice!

If all you were going to shoot in the 7RM was 175grn pills, by all means get the mangle-um, or better yet - a .338!

For the purposes you mention, excluding elk (I'd sure keep the 30-06 for elk, I like it better than either of the other two), I like the .270 - the difference in the bullet weights you mention is minimal (same trajectory, slightly more energy w/ 7 RM).

The .270 is tailor made the antelope and deer. If you feel the need for more, instead of the 7 RM, take a look at the .270 Weatherby Magnum. This is a stretch the string caliber, significant power increase over the .257 Wby yet nearly the same ballistics. In that group of bullets you mention, I'd also seriously consider the Nosler Partition. It is the gold standard in high performance bullets, proven like no other in the game fields.

I own a .270 Win, 7 RM, and .280. I'd take the .270 over the 7 RM and I'd take the .280 over either, if you're a handloader. If you're not a handloader, then the .270 and the 7 RM have a higher "Walmart" factor.

Keep the 30-06 use the money you would spend on another rifle for practice ammunition, and get closer there is not a lot of difference in the trajectory of the various cartridges discussed so far.

Maybe he has experienced spooking a big old smart one trying to get too close. If getting inside their spook zone is the goal he could just hunt during bow season while they are still in their patterns.

Bigsqueeze: I checked out that Hornady Ballistics program. Pretty intersting stuff. I'm seeing that, if using Hornady bullets, I can shoot 154gr bullets out of the 7mm at the same speed and trajectory as a 130gr from the 270. Similar BCs would be the 130gr 270 and 139 7mm. At that point, the 7mm shoots a bit flatter and packs more punch and deals with the wind better.

I just need to figure out of "better" is enough to justify the larger powder charge and increase in recoil. After shooting a friend's 7mm, it seems like the difference in recoil between the 7mm with 160gr bullets and my 30-06 using 180gr bullets isn't distinguishable. I'd almost say my 30-06 kicks a bit harder. Either way, I would be okay with shooting it from the prone.

Sorry, not true......................getting rid of both for a 280 doesn't strike me as any step "up" at all;it's just a lateral move from the 270 which is "same /same" as the 280.

I have been listening to the 280 hair splitters for years,and the utter nonsense about how it's "better" than a 270.The 280 is one of my favorite cartridges that I was loading for and hunting with in the late 70's or early 80's. So my problem isn't with the 280;it's with those who believe it posseses some magical qualities that make it somegow superior to the 270,or the 7mag.This is largely fairy tale,and overactive imagination.Fact is it is no "better" than a 270,and not as fast as anything in a 7 mag.

If you have new gun fever go far it. But something to think about if you want to keep using your favorite rifle, the Leupy Boone & Crockette reticle has a special setting that calibrates the 30-06, 180 drop to 300, 400, 450, 500, and 600.

Unless the 280 has been Ackley (ized) then that's a different conversation...............................

Haha!

numbers don't lie (unless it's a Leupy advertisement)

I think people have misunderstood me. I don't shoot 25 inch groups at 400 yards, my groups drop 25 inches from a 200 yard zero at 400 yards. The groups stay in the 6 to 8 inch range at 400, but have lots of drop. I'd like to cut some of that drop by shooting something that shoots flatter and warrants a 250 yard zero.

I like the 280 Remington and have had a thing for Remington Mountain Rifles, so that would be a good deal. I'm trying to stay with something with lots of factory loads available so that I'm covered if I'm out in BFE without ammo for some reason. Otherwise, the 280 isn't enough of a boost over my 7x57.

Dan, I understand what you want. And flattest trajectory of the rounds you mentioned is provided by the 7RM. Period.

I understand as well.....2 feet of drop at 400 is a lot. 7RM allows a lot less drop at 400 than 25".

At 400 yds, with fullhouse hunting loads, sighted in at the same distance, the 270W, the 06, and the 7mmRM are going to be very, very close together at 400 yards--20-23 inch drop if sighted dead on at 200 yards.

With a Sierra 165 Bt, your 30-06 will reach way out and tag a pronghorn.

Casey

Here's one more option for you. With your 9.25 lb Winchester you're obviously not too delicate to handle a rifle with some heft to it. Try a Ruger #1B in .270. You'll have a 26" barrel to get it moving. I have one that is very accurate and moves 130 grain bullets at 3170 fps with nothing more complicated than a max load of H-4831SC. It shoots flat and with a BDC reticle it is a great advantage at longer ranges.

One side benefit is that a .270 as heavy as a #1B is an absolute pleasure to shoot from a recoil point of view.

Well, I'm going to try out some of these 150gr Barnes TTSX loads from my 30-06. I'll give them a fair shake. If not, I'm going 7mm Rem Mag shopping!

Any suggestions on that? I'd like to keep the whole package at 9 pounds or less. 26 inch barrel. I'm not sure if it matters whether its stainless or not. I think I might go stainless because I don't have any stainless rifles and I hunt in a "rainforest" for elk.

Bob, pick the heavy for caliber bullet with all three cartridges, same barrel length, the top velocity in your chosen manual for each cartridge, and compare the ballistic tables, all three are going to run 20-23 inches of drop at 400 yds when sighted in at 200 yds.

I used to have all this stuff memorized--now I'm going to have to go check my tables to make sure I'm accurate!!!


Casey

If you're going to hunt Roosies in the rainforest, the 200 Nosler Pt in a 06 is the ultimate elk jungle load!

One of my "first-line" lightweight hunting rigs is a 06AI. One fall I killed a caribou, moose, pronghorn, elk, and a muley with 200gr Partitions--it did just great.........


Casey

I consider the .30-06 and the 7mm Rem Mag equals when elk hunting. If you have a 30-06 now then there's little reason to duplicate the capability.

The advantage of the .270 is that it can do it all on mule deer, Caribou, pronghorns and elk as well except the elk hunt would be better served with the heavier bullets. However you already have the .30-06......walla the .270 is now a better choice than the 7-Mag!

BTW.....using today's premium bullets, there's no way you can't knock the snot out of an elk either.

The .270 is available in lighter rifles and shorter barrels than a 7-Mag and because of this I much prefer it to Magnums.

Bob, pick the heavy for caliber bullet with all three cartridges, same barrel length, the top velocity in your chosen manual for each cartridge, and compare the ballistic tables, all three are going to run 20-23 inches of drop at 400 yds when sighted in at 200 yds.

I used to have all this stuff memorized--now I'm going to have to go check my tables to make sure I'm accurate!!!

Casey [quote]


Casey: Don't know how it worked out for others,but the 7RM does not drop 2 feet at 400 yards with anything I have fired in it.....I start a 160 at a bit under 3100(in a long throat they topped 3100).Zeroed 3"+ at 100 with the 160 Partition,it's POA at 300,and 9-10" low at 400. The 140 at higher velocity beats this by a couple of inches at 400....

At 600,the 160 drops very slightly less than a 180 fired from a 300 mag at 3100,or about 46"low from a 300 yard zero.I've fired all these loads many times at 400-600.....the 7RM beats the standard cases easily.

Ya'll figured out which one is the real death ray yet?

There Bob I fixed it . I would take the 270, 280, or 7 Mag and get it done, heck even the 06 will do it.

+1.

The 270 is a better pony rifle too. My 22" ADL is fairly quiet and pretty handy.
And 140 AccuBonds at 2980fps ain't exactly wimpy.

Fixt it to get a .280???


Don't you mean a .270 Improved???




Ingwe

Nah, I know the 7mmRM with a 160gr doesn't drop 24 inches, more like 20 inches or less at 400 when sighted in at 200--but I doubt if there is more than a few inches diff at 400 between the three when using the heavier bullets.

Of course, I do have an acquaintance who insists he can aim dead on out to 400 yards with his 7mmRM..........who am I to argue with him?...



Casey

Ohhhhh, man...
You are off of my Xmas card list now, buddy!

I've heard the 7x57 will still kill stuff, have you heard it to?

For the .280 fans.....I'm in full agreement.

It's a splendid cartridge for all around hunting and will stand toe to toe with the .30-06 for most all big game hunting.

If you know the approximate range and the bullet trajectory, it doesn't matter how much the bullet drops. If you don't have that information, a change in caliber won't help that much. With the above info in hand, a 45-70 would be fine at 400 yards. Take the 30-06, a rangefinder and a trajectory chart and win the day.

TC

TC: Yeah..... I'd like to see you with a 45/70, 5 seconds to shoot,,and a large buck at 350.....call me and tell me how that one went for ya...... I'll pay for the phone call..that stuff sounds nice on the internet...but can't cut mustard in the field.Ask poor Dan......he doesn't wanna deal with 2 feet of drop at 400.....and I don't blame him!

You guys crack me up....of course trajectory matters;especially inside 400 yards and there is no way anyone will convince me that these animals give enough time to be dickin' with LRF's....sometimes,sure...but if confronted with a 350 yard shot,no LRF reading.....well, you can deal with 18" of drop if you want......I won't

6-7" is more like it....

The 270 doesn't come close to a 7 mag shooting a 120 at 3,500 mv.
My bullet choice for Cows deer in AZ. Makes a great mule deer load as well.

With a 300 yard zero it's only 7" low at 400 and 20" low at
500. Mid-range is only 3" high. That's flat!

Also, talk about versatility.
The 270 doesn't hold a candle light to a 7 mag shooting a 180 Berger VLD at 2,950 for long distance.

It's not even a comparison.

Thats just an errant rumor spread 100 yrs ago by some guy named Bell....

Ingwe

He shot irons....in the puckerbrush....

Before you put out the cash for a new rifle, push some 130 gr. TTSXs hard through your 06. You may have a flatter shooting death ray in your hands than you think. Nothing you have named will not succumb to it - readily.

Gee, my experience (on quite a few animals in various places from southern South Africa to northern North America) is that the .30-06 with a 180 will do quite well out to 400+ on many b ig game animals. It may not shoot quite as flat or drift less in the wind than some others, but if you KNOW the load it will do it pretty easily.

If you want a new rifle, why not? But your .30-06 will do the job, quite neatly.

oldtrapper: Yes ,maybe true....but that's just one bullet,one load....and before you do that you have to "like" TTSX...

Besides,whatever the 06 does with a 130 TTSX, the 7 mag still does more with a 120 TTSX;it gets a face lift from light,tough bullets, too.There is just no gettin' around powder capacity.... :)like death and taxes.....

Bingo...we got a winner!

I see my last statement as a threshold beyond which lies the merely moot.

Bob,

Check out this 7 mag action.

http://greybullprecision.com/VideoGallery/BearHunt/tabid/61/Default.aspx

You obviously failed physics and math!

True! The casing or brass is just the engine driving the projectile.

Of the .277, .284 and .308 pills in "like" weights and profiles (ballistic shape and proportions), for anywhere on this planet the 7mm bore is indeed the most efficient.

+1 Hard to argue with success!

Altho if I chose the '06 as a "one" go-to riffle for everything, I'd have compare the 200grn Nosler to the 180grainer before choosing which "one."

I may not be a math wizz kid...but I've fired thousands of all three rounds to 600 yards,and hunted the west with all three cartridges for decades.I can read a chronograph and a ruler.And I know a dead animal when I see it....other than with stuff like a Berger(new on the scene),the 280 has nothing on a 270;and the 7RM beats them both at distance.You're free to play with ballistic table if you want......I'd rather shoot and hunt to get my info.

There is no doubt that the 7mm Rem Mag pushing 160-gr boattail bullets, is a superior 300 to 400 yard rifle to the factory .270, .280 or .30-06 shooting anything with reasonable pressures.

For me, the .270 is a great deer rifle, and can work in lighter rifles, with 22-inch barrels, and moderate recoil, using lighter bullets.

The .30-06 works in 22-inch rifles with moderate recoil.

The .280 just splits the difference between the .270 and .30-06.

The only downside to the 7mm RM is that most of them are bigger, substantially heavier and 2.5 inches longer than a .30-06. If you don't have a .30-06, or have a light .30-06, and a horse to carry your 7mm RM, get the 7mm RM. If you have a big, strong, heavy, 24-inch barrel .30-06, you can use Federal HE or Hornady Light Magnum or handload the 165-gr to 3,000 fps, and the 180-gr to 2850 or more without bad recoil.

Run the ballistics calculators, take your .30-06 with the above ammo to the range, shoot it alongside a friend's 7mm Rem Mag, or 2 or 3 of them. Talk to hunters personally who use both on big game at long range.

If you still think a .30-06 won't do what you want, buy a .338 Win Mag.
I'm always going to try to close the distance to under 300 yards.

Whatever! But why did you try to assert your emotionalistic-non-facts as facts? If you've found something that works for you, great! Have at it! Go have fun with it. But don't be surprised when everyone doesn't agree with you simply because you said so! (same with my views)

But I always have to roll my eyes when someone tries to schmooze others on "what's magical" (or a mysterically the end-all round round for some purpose).

For myself I have done well knowing/learning what to expect from a round or load, then going to the range and doing it. What the next guy does at that point doesn't often matter after that, altho I do appreciate posts from writers whove been there and done it like Muledeer (just one example).

BTW, I know a dead gaminal when i see one too!

ADDED: The average big game hunter isn't going to be able to tell the [effective] difference between a .270-.280-.30/06 in the game fields, esp when shooting something (assuming proper ammo with a correct bullet type is used for the gaminal being killed).

From a practical POV, for most folks the cartridges mentioned in this thread will work just fine - provided said hunter is a good shot!

Also, I've shot the .270W extensively. Its a good round altho there are better ones (for me). Taken 2 elk with it, 6 pronghorns and more than a dozen mulies.

If its all I had, I'd be quite confident with it, altho I'd be anxious to change it (swap or rebarrel it) to a .280 or .3006.

To get outta this box we need a 7mm Weatherby mag in a re barreled M70. (grin)

Does everybody realize we're talking about the differences in drop of less than 10" at 500 yards between the 3-4 cartridges mentioned thus far.

At 400 - the stated distance of the original poster - its more like 4-5".

7RM still rules............. <g>

My BIL decided a couple of years ago when he booked a MT mule deer hunt that apparently the .30-06 loaded with 57 gr. IMR 4350 and a 165 gr. Nosler BT wasn't good enough for the long ranges in MT, regardless of the fact that he's seen me shoot one mule deer at 415 yds. with my .30-06 and the same load he is running. We went through load development for the 7RM he bought, he shot his two deer at 100 yds. and 175 yds, give or take, and then bitched about how much meat the 7RM ruined with 140 gr. BTs compared to the 165 gr. BTs out of his .30-06. Prior to his purchasing the 7RM he asked me what my recommendation was. I told him to stick with the .30-06 load, he doesn't practice enough at ranges beyond 200 yds to be shooting out to 400 yds responsibly in any case. I also showed him that our .30-06 load was within 4-5" of the 7RM at 400 yds. This seemed to be a big deal to him because "it shot flatter" I argued that if he would just go sight in his rifle 3" high at 100 yds, then learn what his holdover on a milk jug at 300, 350, and 400 yds was his .30-06 would be just as effective. Instead, he tried to make up for practice by getting a "flatter" rifle. I still can outshoot him at any range, but most noticeably at ranges beyond 250 yds, he never seems to want to shoot with me any more at long range - my suspicion is because he can't hit at those ranges, but wants to think he can.

Dan,

By now you surely must know you don't really need a new rifle, and I totally agree. Your 30-06 will do it all handily! Aside from that, if you do plan to get a new gun, I suggest you buy American-made. Ruger, Winchester, Savage, Kimber, Weatherby, Marlin, even Remington. There are others. Thanks.

-

110 TTSX in the 270 at 3400 shoots mighty flat for very little recoil.

Good point!! Yup, don't know if I can discern 4 inches at 400yds, or 10in at 500 - but farthest I've ever shot at one BGA was a pronghorn just under 400yds. I usually try to limit it to 300yds.

Selmer; Good but "sad" story about your BIL's 100yd mulie. Some good anecdotal lessons.

My longest shot on game so far was 403 yards with the 30-06 using my regular 180gr Nosler Partition load. I had 2 hours to prepare for the shot. The deer was bedded down about 150 feet above me on the opposing canyon wall with a rock in the way, so I had to wait for him to stand to clear the rock. At that upward angle, I made a SWAG for 20 inches instead of the 25 inches high that I normally get. This put my crosshairs a foot over the back and over the last rib to adjust for the wind which was blowing at a full value of a bit less than 10 mph. It took a lot of synapsercizing to figure all of that out. I hit a bit lower than I intended and drifted a bit more than I thought, but it was still a good hit. The whole time I wish I had something that shot a bit flatter, but it worked out in the end. Maybe I'll just continue to shoot this rifle and get to really know it. That was about as far as I'd ever shoot at an animal.

The 7 mag handloaded to max with heavy bullets is more powerful than a .270 loaded to max with heavy bullets, in every respect, that is so basic that anyone should be able to understand it. A 175 gr. Nosler partition at 3000 FPS is pretty awesome on elk and moose...A .270 can't get there, but does it need to..No, it doesn't need to..The .270 will do fine with a 160 gr. bullet at 2800 FPS.

I wouldn't get my shorts in a wad over the difference inasmuch as the results would be the same for all practical purposes..

Too many posts for such a subject.

Rarely disagree with your posts Ray, but I've been hard pressed to get anywhere near 3000fps with a 175gr in a 7RM.


Casey

My first 7 rem tube a 24" factory one would do 3045 with 7828. I also ran the exacto same load thru 2 other rifles (both 24") and one ran in the 29's and one ran the load @ 2845 fps.

I think that R25 would be a very good way to go with the 175's in the big 7. I use that powder in my Mashburn and get past 3K fairly easily.

Dober

Dober: Bumped into an old article by Page in the 1959 Gun Digest on Old Betsy and the Mashburn.As you know,he ran the old 175 semi-spitzer Partition at 3050 from a 22" tube;160's at 3150..... the list of game that rifle took,world wide,would choke a horse...

I've had a few 7RM's built long throat that did 3125 or so with the 160's;I never used the 175 much but do remember that I broke 2900 with the 175 pretty easy....that was with 7828 IIRC.

We have better 175's than Page did so I expect a Big 7 with 175's at 3k will cut a big swath in a lot of game.....

I got an action and I got a barrel;a new long throat 7RM will be in the works.......

Must be using Hodgdon's new C4 short cut....

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Would love to know the pressure of some loads discussed here.

RD: I've posted this before,but 7 WSM factory stuff with Federal 160 Partitions averaged over 3250 from two rifles I had chambered for the cartridge,a Kimber Montana, and a M70 FW.I emailed Federal, a bit surprised by the velocities.

They told me they load the 7WSM to 65,000 psi; in contrast, they load the 7RM to 58,000.That should give some perspective on what it takes to get some of the velocities mentioned.

Seems to me all your "problems" are solved by switching to a B-Plex or B&C reticle. Then just shoot a lot. But, if you want to get a new rifle, it's as good a reason as any.

Well Dan360, did you expect this much feedback? Whew! I think JB and selmer have got it right. And I like Fraser's idea on a new Ruger No.1B in 270 Win also; I mean, well you know, you NEEEEED anew rifle! Back to what JB and selmer mentioned; I think those two nailed it. Try different bullets like you're doing, and I believe you'll like that 30-06 even more. But don't let that idea take away from buying a new rifle, you NEED a new rifle! Tom

Jeepers, I'm humbled to be mentioned in company with JB! I just know what has worked for me, and worked well. BUT if you're itching for a different rifle, PLEASE don't let me be the one to talk you out of it!

No dispute to what you said. I start my 175 grain 7mm bullets at only about 2400 fps and they are devastating. They leave big, deep holes in game and copius blood on the ground.

-

I thought this would be worth 15 to 20 responses, but almost 100? I appreciate the feedback though. The Ruger No. 1B idea is pretty attractive because I'm a No. 1 nut. I have a 1A that I really like. I'm going to gives these barnes 150gr TTSX a fair shake though. With this economy, its a lot harder to justify buying any more new rifles. I just bought a Ruger M77 Hawkeye in 223 Remington for a walkabout varmint rig. Its illegal to hunt with calibers over .24 in my state while there is a big game season in effect if you don't possess a legal tag. I'm tagged out, so I have to wait or shoot a .22 caliber.

I know this is throwing fuel on the fire, but what about a ruger hawkeye in 6.5creedmore?

For reference, Bob Hagel has an old Handloader/Rifle article about the 7 Mashburn. It shows 160 Nosler's at 3250 +/- and speaks about the case volume differences between it and the 7 Rem. Case volume differences are very small if the bullets are loaded out to the base of the neck. Both the Nosler #4 and #6 loading manuals show Rl 22 loads of 2975 +/- with the 175. If you load the 7 Rem long and to 65k it will do anything anyone needs at any range most of us are qualified of shooting to.

I get velocities like the 7 WSM with the 162 gr. Hornady in my Mashburn.

Well yeah, when we shoot at the 400 yd gong at my ranch with handguns trajectory matters...but if I told my shooting buddies I missed it with my '06 because it doesn't shoot flat enough I'd get my ass kicked.

TC