If you are a hunter or guide in Alaska, what gun and caliber would you use for stopping a charge by a Brown bear or Grizzley?

This topic came up on another forum and some people there said a 44 magnum was a good stopper. Personally, I'd want a 45/70 or 450 marlin loaded with Garrett loads or a shotgun loaded with heavy Copper slugs. If given a choice, I can't see how a pistol would be the 1st choice. Am I wrong?

I think that Elmer used a a double rifle in .500 Gibbs through the shoulders, just to slow them down. I have a Rem .375 H&H and a Marlin .45-70 Guide Gun for the long and short of it, with a .300WBY for the middle.

The reason you'd want a handgun, is for popping your partner in the knee - before you go off running. Failing that, hunt with a fat guy...

The best rifle is the one you're most likely to actually hit the bear in fatal areas with as it charges. Everything else is not relevant if you don't hit it in the right spot. The best cartridge is one that shoots well from the rifle you're carrying. Good bullets are important, but there are a lot of them out there.

Shotguns and slugs are very poor; if you're making a decision, carry a rifle.

I "officially" carried a .35 Whelen; the bears and I got along just fine and I never shot one. Hunting in bear country I've carried the Whelen and my .444, but I never had to shoot one then either.

Hitting one with a lighter rifle is quite a bit better than missing one with a heavier rifle...

Dennis

Like I said before...where you hit it is more important than what you hit it with.

Makes no difference what you hit it with if you don't hit it well...

Dennis

If you are a hunter or guide in Alaska, what gun and caliber would you use for stopping a charge by a Brown bear or Grizzley?

The question is about a stopping caliber. Phil Shoemaker uses a 458 WinMag routinely, but has also utilized other calibers, .375 and up. As far as handguns, he carries a .357 and recommends firing it into the ground in front of the bear as you vacate its proximity. It won't stop a charge.

I've put this on before but it is from last fall and shows a boar that a client wounded and that I had to follow into some thick pucker brush with my 30-06 using 220 Partitions @ 2500fps.
While I would have preferred to have been carrying my 458 - I didn't have it at the time and had no doubt that a properly used 30-06 is still enough if the shooter is up to it.

"slower 30's" ? If you can't do it with a 30-06 - THEN YOU CAN'T DO IT !

What will his guide be backing him up with?

Taylor

If my new rifle is done I will be backing him up with a 30-06 and 220 Nosler Partitions.

The bears today are no larger or tougher than the bears of 50 years ago when the 30-06 was by far the most popular rifle carried by Alaskan guides. Andy Simms and Hosea Sarber and a hundred others found nothing wanting with the 30-06 then, and now, with the bullets we have today, the 30-06 is even better.

Contrary to some opinions, guides who recommend 30 calibers for bears do so to insure that they do not have to shoot their client's bears.

ANYONE WHO CLAIMS THE 30-06 IS INNEFFECTIVE HAS EITHER NOT TRIED ONE - OR IS UNINTENTIALLY COMMENTING ON THEIR MARKSMANSHIP.

Topic is about STOPPING GUNS, not "adequate" guns!

The reason you'd want a handgun, is for popping your partner in the knee - before you go off running. Failing that, hunt with a fat guy...

Topic is about STOPPING GUNS, not "adequate" guns!

I think the article was in Outdoor life about 15 yrs ago.

I agree...
I have always heard there was a difference between bringing down a animal and �Stopping� an adrenalized charge�

Since I am pretty clueless (except for hogs)I will sit back and wait for a reply.

The only way to instantly stop a bear or any other animal, no matter what calliber one is shooting is with bullet placement. By this I mean a central nervous system hit or a Skelton stucture hit so as to diable the animal instantly, no other shot placement will always inflict an instant stop no matter what caliber you are useing

Apparently some of the people who've posted on this thread from such grizzly-infested places as Nebraska and Colorado didn't read the caption under Phil's photo of the big dead bear. He STOPPED that bear swhen it charged at very short range with his .30-06, after his client wounded it with a much bigger rifle.

Yes, there are tales of bears taking umpteen shots from all sorts of rifles (and handguns), but what is generally left out of such stories is that none of the shots hit a place to STOP the bear, or even kill it very quickly.

A .30-06 (especially with heavy premium bullets like the 200- or 220-grain Nosler Partitions) will stop a huge bear if put in the right place. A .375 bullet will just piss a bear off if put in the wrong place. So what is a "stopping" rifle? A rifle that's aimed correctly.

Topic is about STOPPING GUNS, not "adequate" guns!

The wording and accuracy of this post is outstanding and I can not agree more..

I suppose if a 30-06 is good enough then an 8mm Mauser properly loaded(200 grain partitions maybe) would be enough as well ? Craig

44 magnum was a good stopper

Here's hoping people pay attention to you guys...some of them haven't to me, and I've said the same thing twice on this thread... .

When I shot my Cape buffalo with my .404, the two PH's with me were carrying .375's. I asked them if they felt comfortable, and their response was basically that they work just fine if you hit things properly, and nothing does if you don't. Being as that backed my viewpoint from Alaska et al, I felt pretty comfortable. Since I shot the buff at 50 ft in the nose and out the back of the skull, I guess the PH's felt comfortable with me too... .

This seems so simple to me, but maybe I'm just simple...

Dennis

Wonder what would happen if these were pasted in the Africa forum?

For forty years the 30-06 was THE Alaskan Guides rifle of choice and worked just fine on big bears then and still does.
The 240 Woodleighs run around 2250 fps from a 22 inch bbl.
I guess if we listen to all these opinions and distill them down to what gives both velocity and range plus stopping power then a Barrett 50 BMG should be the ultimate all around rifle. However, not being as tough as I once was, I think I'll stick to my 30-06 and 200 partitions.


I have learned that it doesn't really matter a whole lot what rifle a bear hunter carries IF HE CAN USE IT. This afternoon I was just re-reading Jim Reardon's new book where he discusses the world record Brown Bear hunt. That bear, which they estimated weighed 1300-1400 pounds, squared an honest (as opposed to streched) 10' 5". Ray Lindsey killed it at 30 yards with his 30-06 and 180 gr bullets - which he prefered over the .405.
If using bigger rifles make you feel better then use one. I carry my 458 when guiding for the same reason, but to argue that the 30-06 is insufficient for big bears is to ignore facts.

If this forum is for picking one rifle for ALL N AM game including bears (instead of simply who's favorite big bore is potentially a better bear slayer) and all you are looking at is one or two bears in a lifetime then anything from the .270 thru the .338 will fit the bill perfectly. My vote is with the 30-06 because I have one that I have used all over the globe but I certaily wouldn't argue with anyone who chooses a 7mm or 300 magnum either.

I have settled on the Buffalo Bore 430 hard cast bullets in both mine and my wife's 45-70 bear defense rifles. If a bear gets to you when you use these it won't be because of bullet failure.

If you are going to report what "Phil Shoemaker" uses report in all and report accurately. Phil has used and still does use and recommends a 30-06. Phil has posted right here on the Campfire that a 30-06 is "perfectly adequate for the Big Bears"


This is the second post that I have corrected about "what Phil use's"




I can find more are is this is not enough?

Since this forum is strictly about stopping wounded bears - rather than hunting them- If I had to go after one today and I could pick any rifle I would take this one. My MkX 458 loaded with either 500gr Hornady Interbonds or 450gr Swift A-Frames

I didn't have it at the time and had no doubt that a properly used 30-06 is still enough if the shooter is up to it.

That would have been my choice but this site is .416 friendly and .458's are more common with hunters who have used .416's.

John

Maybe all of your handguns are wimpy but, speak for yourself. Some of us acctualy own revolvers that put big game on the ground in a hurry

I'll go ahead and tell you the difference between an "adequate" rifle and a "stopping" rifle

The difference is "shot location"

So if I read you correctly, there are wimpy handguns and powerful handguns, but all rifles are equal given proper "shot location".

No you did not read me correctly. How you got that impresion is beyound me. No one has even remote sugested that a 22 center fire is enough rifle. The info put forth has said that a 30-06 was enough and will stop big bears with proper shot placement. Bigger rifles do not stop with poor shot location. A bigger rifle will always make one fell better, because we have been programed all of our lives that "bigger is better" wheter it is nessecary or not.

Energy? 2 Ram running together butting heads generate over 5,000 FPE and they walk away. Energy is a poor indicator of terminal performance.

A 200 pound man running 30 feet per secound (a 10 flat hundred) has nearly 2800 FPE yet there are faster and larger men play football running together and they get up and return to the huddle

"Mr. Garrett, I am a Master Guide in Alaska and a Licensed Professional Hunter in Africa. I have made a full time living as guide since 1975 and have over the years tested the bullets from every major bullet maker and from most of the custom bullet makers. I chose to use your 45-70 ammo because it is by far the best. I do not believe that any better load exists to go into thick brush after a wounded Grizzly. I had unlimited choices of rifles and calibers that my son could use. I have custom rifles in medium and big bore up to 470 Nitro.We decided on Jason using a factory rifle, the Marlin Guide Rifle in 45-70.

The end result is that 9 year old Jason shot a beautiful 8' 7" Grizzly with your 45-70 ammo. From 45 yards the 540 gr. bullet struck the bear broadside in the left shoulder. Breaking the shoulder, going through the rib cage on both sides and breaking the right shoulder, then exiting the bear. This was a devastating blow to a tough animal. The bear made one jump when hit then collapsed dead 18 feet from where he was standing.
Thank you for making the excellent ammo that helped make my son's hunt a success. "
Jerry Jacques

Since this forum is strictly about stopping wounded bears - rather than hunting them- If I had to go after one today and I could pick any rifle I would take this one. My MkX 458 loaded with either 500gr Hornady Interbonds or 450gr Swift A-Frames

Since this forum is strictly about stopping wounded bears - rather than hunting them- If I had to go after one today and I could pick any rifle I would take this one. My MkX 458 loaded with either 500gr Hornady Interbonds or 450gr Swift A-Frames

78% of bullet diameter meplat

There's the hammer.

A friend of mine ambushes deer with a 475 Linebaugh. IIRC he's using a mild load of W231 under a 400 grain'ish WFN type bullet. He tells me it's just "pop" and they fold like right now.

I have used a lot of rifles and calibers on bears and have learned that the single most important factor is the skill, knowledge and nerve of the shooter.
Calibers and bullets do make a difference but not as much as virtually everybody on the is forum seems to think.

If you are going to report what "Phil Shoemaker" uses report in all and report accurately. Phil has used and still does use and recommends a 30-06. Phil has posted right here on the Campfire that a 30-06 is "perfectly adequate for the Big Bears"


This is the second post that I have corrected about "what Phil use's"




I can find more are is this is not enough?

"While I would have preferred to have been carrying my 458 - I didn't have it at the time and had no doubt that a properly used 30-06 is still enough if the shooter is up to it. "

Seems his conclusion is pretty clear - while a properly loaded 30-06 will do, a 458 would be preferable.

And what part of the stop was found lacking with the 30-06? That of course is the main conclusion of that statement. Trying to manipulate the outcome contrary to the results is how the effectiveness of the 30-06 is missed

So while Shoemaker considers a 30-06 adequate for big bears, anyone that wants to say that he uses and prefers a 458 is completely justified in doing so and does not need correcting.

That said I have seen a 458 knock a brown bear's dick in the dirt RIGHT now.

The only thing I've ever used a 458 in anger for was a rockchuck or three, and it knocked their peckers in the dirt toot sweet as well...

Dober

"The bear (coastal grizzly) had been hit once with a 375 H&H, but wound not go down. When he turn and started running in the opposite direction I hit him in the rump with the 45-70 at about 120 yards. He went only about 30 yards more before stopping. When we skinned him we found the 420 gr Hammerhead had entered on his right side rump, passing though and destroying the pelvis. I recovered the bullet under the skin beyond the right front shoulder (full length penetration). The bear squared 9'6'' and had a 25 5/8" skull. Amazing penetration!"
- Paul Lenmark, Boise, ID (coastal grizzly guide)

"This grizzly was killed in Spatsizi Plateau Wilderness Park in the Eagle Nest Mountain Range of Northern British Columbia. He squared over 8 feet and the skull measured 23 13/16'', which is very good size for an interior mountain grizzly bear. When I shot the bear, he had started a charge from about 70 yards away, and by the time I had a sight on him, he was 40 yards. The 540 Hammerhead hit him right between the front legs, and he did a complete front-wards flip after the bullet hit him. That bullet completely penetrated him lengthwise and exited. I made a follow up shot (which was unnecessary, just instinct) after he rolled which angled through the chest, took out a section of spine, and exited the top of his skull (if you look closely at the photo you can see the exit hole in his head). Very impressive bullet performance."
- Tyler Serle, Albuquerque, British Columbia

Poor choice in scopes, you'd never be able to pick out a bear in the pucker brush with that scope unless it was bright ass sunshine. A 4x S&B would do SO much better for you...........

While not incorrect in and of itself, it is only a portion of the facts and not complete

Since this forum is strictly about stopping wounded bears - rather than hunting them- If I had to go after one today and I could pick any rifle I would take this one. My MkX 458 loaded with either 500gr Hornady Interbonds or 450gr Swift A-Frames

"While I would have preferred to have been carrying my 458 - I didn't have it at the time and had no doubt that a properly used 30-06 is still enough if the shooter is up to it. "

Seems his conclusion is pretty clear - while a properly loaded 30-06 will do, a 458 would be preferable.

but with ALL DEFERENCE AND RESPECT to Phil and others, I think it's pure folly to hunt those big bears with an 06 when there are clearly better suited calibers for it. In my view a 338 with gr premium bullets is a sensible starting point.

Full disclosure, I've never hunted Brown Bear

The fact is, if he did not prefer to use the 30-06 that day he would not have carried it to use as his back up, meaning it is plenty effective

I remember reading about some famous hunter/writer who ,along with his guide, were charged by an average sized Brown bear by their cabin. They were shooting at the bear and hitting it with everything they had [44 magnum handgun, and 338Win if IRC]and they back backed into the cabin before finally killing the bear. If I remember correctly, they hit it with 10-15rounds at nearly point blank range before the bear finally died.

Wait 'til I get some popcorn..........

Pete