I am considering buying a pre 64' model 70 in 30-06. It has a perfect bore. What should I expect for accuracy? Would bedding the action mess with the value if gun is all original? I just want the gun. Will probably use occasionally for whitetail and perhaps elk one day. Accuracy is not the reason I would buy it, just curious.

It's your rifle, if you want to bed it; bed it. Most pre-64's, including all those that I own, are worn enough that they are not collector pieces and their value is in their smoothness and heritage, a heritage best appreciated out in the field.

I have two pre-64 30-06 sporters (with barrel doughnut), one in a McMillan, another in the factory stock with forend screw; both wear factory barrels, both have untuned triggers and both will put 180gr Nosler Partitions into 1 1/2" at 100 yards consistently. Sometimes better; only worse when I don't do my part. I can live with that accuracy in return for hunting with a piece of American history.

I have a pre 64 M70 FW in .270WCF that shoots just about anything under 3/4". It isn't bedded or anything, but the trigger is set to a crisp 2.5 lbs. I don't have much experience with these pre 64s (this is my first) but I sure am thrilled about this one.

I have a 30/06 Model 70 Sporter built in '52. It's my favorite rifle that I own. Although I am currently having trouble with 150-grain remington Core Lokt reloads, it loves Speer 165 grandslams and Sierra 110 HPs. I have heard a lot of people say that the new Model 70's built in South Carolina are better than the pre-64's. I would have to disagree based just on the looks and feel of the two.

I've owned a good many pre 64 M70 30/06's that were dependable sub MOA rifles;with the right load and shooter they would do better than that.As a matter of fact I sort of expect it from the rifles,regardless of caliber.

Generally this is as they came, but once in awhile one will require a bit of tweaking with the forend screw.

The SC M70 is a great rifle for the money,but it isn't a pre 64 M70 IMHO.

When properly screwed into the stock I don't think it will disappoint you.

I have had the best luck with the following;
The screw at the recoil lug must be very tight , the rear snug and the middle screw barely touching. If it has the forend screw that should be snugged. Others have more experience than me I am certain but the above has worked well.

I have found the standard Grades to be a bit more accurate than the Featherweights in factory stocks. The Featherweights have generally improved dramatically with glass bedding and free floating the barrels. I have as yet to shoot a pre-64 70 that I would call inaccurate.

I have worked with two Standard Grade 30-06's and four Featherweights. All but one of them, a Featherweight, were easy to get to shoot sub one inch 3 shot groups in factory stocks. The one Featherweight is a solid 1/1/2" rifle and may get better when I get it in a Bansner.

My standard grade .30-06 is the most consistently accurate rifle I own.

I've fooled around with maybe a dozen pre-64's over the years and they've always shot at least OK (meaning around an inch or so) to spectacularly. One was a 1959 .30-06 that was in 98-99% condition. With the forend screw tight it would shoot several loads (including some Winchester 150 Silvertip factories) into 1/2" or less at 100 yards, usually with 3 shots touching. This is the way "blueprinted," synthetic-stocked, match-barrel custom rifles are supposed to shoot but often don't.

My pre-war .270 consistently shot under an inch at 100 yards with 130 & 100
grain bullets, 5 shot groups. With 110 Sierras it shot around 5/8"............

I was going to make a .25/06 out of it when I bought it, but the 110 Sierra load
fulfilled that role.

You can usually find the sweet spot with the barrel screw if your rifle does not shoot the way you want it to. Mine shot great with just a barrel cleaning.

My pre-64 standard weight 30-06 was the most consistently accurate rifle I have owned. It would put five factory Remington or Federal 150's into an inch. It would go well under an inch with select handloads. I shot silhouette with it and wore it out. I replaced the barrel with a pre-64 featherweight barrel in 30-06. It is finicky about what it likes but it will also group under an inch with select loads.

Thank you all for the replies. Good to excellent accuracy, dependable feeding, collectable, and somewhat reasonably priced. Sounds like a winner to me. After the post-war "transition" guns, are the early 50's guns considered better made than the early 60's guns?

The early 50's guns in my experience are better finished and the checkering is waaay better. The checkering on the later pre-64's is junk. I also like the straight comb stock better than the later Monte Carlo stock.
Having said that, probably the most consistently accurate hunting rifle I own is a 1962 Westerner, .264 WM. I love that gun.

I was passed down a '55 300 H&H. It had very little use. In it's original stock and shooting '50's silvertips that came with the rifle just over 1". It is in a beater stock now that I bedded. With handloads it will keep a good load at 1/2" at 100 if I do my job. Unless the rifle is really beat I would expect as good or better accuracy than rifles available today.

I own several pre-64's, but the most accurate is a standard 270 built in 1952. It will shoot about anything into a 1/2". Hate to think what it could do with somebody that knew how to shoot. The others all shoot 1 to 1 1/2" including the featherweights.

I have owned several pre '64s over the years, all would shoot three shots into 1-1 1/2". The most accurate was a .338 Winchester magnum that would put three .275gr. Speer RN's in a nice tight cloverleaf. I harvested many elk and mule deer with that rifle, never needed a second shot most dropped in their tracks.

Pre 64 Win 70 barrels up to 1952 are the cream of the crop. These all had integral front ramps, were beautifully lapped and chambered with between 5 and 7 reamers, depending on the caliber. After 1952 the shortcuts started. Internally they were still good up to 1955 in all calibers, with rarer calibers good up til the end as they were olde stock for the most part. Even with the shortcuts, they still shoot great. I have two very late Fwt barrels that are sub-MOA for three shots, actually cloverleaf or less.

I think the only barrel as capable as a pre 64 Win 70 would be Krieger. I am talking great hunting rifle accuracy and longlife.

M-70 WINCHESTERS and Mauser have been my life and by today's standards of accuracy they are nothing to brag about and I know that it was the bedding problems that really holds back the M-70 pre-64. For a hunter I recommend a restock to McMillan stock and the factory wood untouched as a keeper. I would turn over the metal for a re barrel with any number of top barrel makers, keep the original barrel and sell it, I have and have worked over my hunting rifle actions and it has made a difference, by the way the M-70 pre-64 action is weak for handling gas unless it is modified.

I guess my 1961 vintage FW in 30-06 is an exception or maybe I should sell the barrel and get a good one installed. The 150 grain GMX, WLR primer, new WW cases and either 57.0 or 58.0 grains of Big Game powder seems to shoot OK at 200 yards. I turned into a "thing hitter" instead of a "group shooter" when my friend spotting for me said "do that again" after the second shot with the 58.0 grain load. My only complaint is that the 150 interlock spire point bullet shoots just about as accurately but to a different point from the GMX. My friend's pre-64 standard weight .270 shoots almost as well with 130 and 140 Hornadays. The 4 Pre-64s I have been around all shoot pretty accurately.

I inherited my Dad's pre-64 in 30-06 and it shoots sub 1 moa rather easily with several loads.

One has to remember that in the 50+ years there can be a lot that has happened to the bores of these rifles so that can explain some of them that are not very accurate.

For what it's worth my go to 300H&H shoots my reloads 1/2-3/4" groups when I do my part and it's 375H&H stable mate puts them all in under 1" at 75yds (that's as far as I shot the 375 as I set it up for a bear gun over bait). I also have a pre-64 243 Varmint gun that shoots so good I don't even want to say how good it shoots as people would call me a lier! Pretty much all of the M70's I've taken time to shoot have been very good shooters or better except the 22 Hornets which were all about 2-1/2" guns at 100yds.

Please before you bed that rifle take it out and shoot it. You might be surprised how good it shoots just the way it is. If there is one thing that bugs me is when someone gets a rifle and they free float and bed it before they ever even shoot it. Often times they shoot better in the orignal format than after all the fancy accuracy stuff is performed on them.

I would agree with reelman. Unless it is really beat I would keep as is. One thing not commopnly known today is the use of the foreend screw. Jack OConner One wrote something to this effect, that this was a bedding devise that could exert more or less pressure on the barrel depending on the snugness. His advise was to check accuracy at varing degress of snugness. I have tried it and it works. I have been shooting Pre 64s since 1961 and have never had one that with a little load fiddling that would not shoot one inch or less. Initially I tried the bed and free float routine trying for perfection. They seldom shot any better, but i sure did destroy any collector value.

Well, your sticking your neck out when you predict the accuracy of any rifle, as some will shoot well and others will not..but my experience with a pre 64 Mod. 70 and I have literally owned hundreds of them over the years and don't recall but one bad one that I had when I was about 13 years old, and it shot 4 inch groups on average, and I killed a ton of deer with it, some at very long range. come to think of it maybe the 4 inch groups were caused by the loose nut behind the recoil pad.

Most can use a little tweeking in the bedding has been my experience, but then that could apply to all rifles.

Hello,

My only M70 Pre-64 is a .375 H&H made in 1953. I bought it from a Southafrican who came to Patagonia for a few years and left the rifle, sold to me, with Weaver bases and two yellow boxes of Winchester 300 grs Silvertips. From the begining, shooting the rifle with cold barrel, the first shoot went high, around 2 to 3 inches. Once dismounted the rifle I see two cracks: one behind the first stop of the stock forward of the magazine opening and the other in the little bridge in front of the trigger opening. Studying the situation I realized that there was a light of around 1 mm between the front stop of the action and the wood! I fill the gap with several metal sheets until the contact was firm. And I put two cross bolts throught the front and rear cracks. And all went right! The first shoot throught a cold barrel was in the same group as the followings 2 or 4 shoots! The rifle is a 1 to 1,5", depending of the sooter, me, with all bullets, from 235 Speer and Barnes X to 300 grs Nosler P, Sierra and Hornady. I have absolute confidence in my .375 H&H Winchester Pre-64.

Regards

PH

Patagonia, I have yet to see a Pre-64 375 H&H that has been shot that does not have it's stock cracked between the trigger and magazine!

Generally, yes but I like the 60's guns just fine...reason is I am not a collector; I hunt with mine,they work just great and shoot very well,and can be had somewhat cheaper.So I don't ever hesitate to buy one and use it to hunt

Here is my main dislike of of 1959 and later M70's. I absolutely hate that oversize, drilled sear hole. I much prefer the nice broach cut sear opening on 1958 and earlier.

It requires about 26 inch pounds of torque.

Shameless, I suspect you may be correct.But I have had some that shot splendidly with the front screw completely removed.

sbr:Earlier actions were likely more nicely made and there is nothing like a fine pre war IMHO....not that I don't appreciate the finer points of the variations in their construction(I can sit and just read Rule's book for shear entertainmnet).But my primary interest in them is as hunting rifles, so I sorta look past these types of issues for my purposes.

Bob, I agree with you on the Pre-Wars being much nicer but for a hunting rifle the problem is they are not easilly scoped. But there is an option - the Transition Era M70's made from 47-49, all the quality of the Pre-War but D&T'd and the bolt is bent for scope mounting. And they still retain the great looking IMHO cloverleaf rear tang!

reelman agreed......I saw one the other day,5 digits in 30/06 and about passed out..I just knew it would shoot,even with the Lyman48 on board.

But I cannot bring myself any longer to touch a prewar or alter it in any material way to make it better for hunting from a modern perspective....they are now paragons of the past just as they came from the factory and it is high treason to mess with them

I heard recently of some Philistine who insists on pre war actions to build Tactical rifles.......few things are more uncouth.

I dearly love my P/64's,but can't temp myself with another pre-war.All of mine are hunted with,early 50's for the most part and I don't and have not had a need to do any tricks to them.Find a load and go huntin'..take care of them..enjoy

There are guns that have been built,post-war,with a lot of pride and care. From the late 40's and 50's,the Winchesters,Brno's,Mannlichers and even Weatherbys are the finest factory rifles ever built,then the 60's came and brought us the Sako's.Over the years,I've owned over 40 P/64 70's,and never had one that didn't shoot and feed,I'm down to 10,after trading up for condition,what's in the safe now are the keepers for the grandkids to sort out....

Hi reelman,

I was surprised by the wide gap between the action lug and the stock. Both vertical and horizontal! I think this is the main cause of the cracking.

Regards

PH

No doubt at all,but if you do torque the front stock screw,26 inch lbs.are about as tight as you should go.

I've shot M70's with the barrel screw in and out and haven't noticed much of a difference in groups. My 300H&H shoots like a champ without the screw in.

I have had a few pre 64's and unlike most people on this thread have not found them to be exceptionally accurate. Although I have not experimented with their bedding which most probably would have improved their accuracy. The worst was a pre 64 .264 mag. I had it rebarreled with a shilen chrome moly barrel in 7 RM and it shot well, although I sold it to a guy who wanted it more than I did.

I have kept two push feed 70's that have great accuracy, as good as my M700's or Tikka lite.

I have used pre-64 M 70s for going on 45 years now and presently own 5 ...264 Westerner, 270 Featherweight, 30-06 standard, 338 Alaskan and 375 standard...I use these classics for what they were designed for ..hunting......and have carried these classics all over North America.. I load max loads and all 5 will shoot a minimum of 1- 1 1/2 inches...which works fine for me..all 5 are Winchester originals nothing has been done to alter them...of the pre 64s I have owned the only one I was disappointed with was the 264 Featherweight...the 358 Featherweight is one I wish I had back...

OU: I don't understand how you killed all those bears with those old rifles.....

Never ever had a problem with mine(pre '64 270 Win) right out of the box..It shoots better than I do with a 50's Weaver scope.

Jayco

yep Bob...those ol' Winchester have killed 19 NA bears...that ol' 375 has taken it's share with 15......I have always used an
off the wall bullet called Bitterroot...seems to work just fine in the old rifles...

Jayco, I am about to commit the ultimate sin;got a mint pre 64 270 FW,as clean as NIB as can get...Bought it out of a collection 3 years or so ago...it's going to the range this afternoon for sighting in and may go to Wyoming this fall....we will see how she shoots.

I will let someone else save them for posterity....I will be dead a long time.


OU: Lemme see.......50 year old rifle and 30 year old bullets......how DO you manage to kill anything???

Pre-64..M70...375...275 BBC loaded to 2,800 fps..and 4x32 Zeiss Diatal C scope...is also an ol'timer!!

You and BobinNH are going to be fast friends.

I just bought thru a friend in Idaho,a .338 from 1958 that has reportedly killed 52 Elk,according to my Bud,it looks like it...alot. Too bad it was an Estate sale,I would love to have talked to that guy.
As soon as it arrives,I photograph it...

I've got a pre 64 (1951) 30-06 that shoots sub moa groups. The hunting stock (original pre 64 w/extras) is pillar bedded and glass bedded under the chamber + first 2 inches. It has a dummy screw where the forend screw goes that doesn't make contact with the barrel. The barrel is freefloated and it is a very consistent shooter. Had it out last weekend and it shoots the 1917's and the classic sporter's pet load very well. Shot 5 groups at less than .75 moa.

Yep..the ol' standard 30-06 is a good rifle...mine is a 1952...I am taking it next week to Wyoming to hunt Shiras...will be using 200 BBC loaded to 2800....that rifle and load will shoot 1-1/2..

Well Bob..I use my Remington 700 270 instead..I'm not sure where you got the 30 year old bullets,but I do have a quite a few but doubt I will shoot any of them.

.270's are like Lay's Potato Chips...'Ya just can't have one!!!!


Jayco

you should load and shoot them...

Jayco, you mean the BBC's? They have been around since at least the early 70's.....pretty sure.....I've been using them since the early 80's IIRC.

OU: Good group! And what I have seen myself with the BBC's,the pre 64's and the 375 H&H!

The most accurate pre '64 M/70 I've owned was a .338 Winchester magnum, it would put three shots into a nice tight cloverleaf. The .257 Roberts and .35 Whelen I currently own will consistently group their shots into an inch to inch and a half with nearly all loads if I do my part.

guns: Those 338's were NICE rifles....

I own several and I have never had one that would not shoot well. I like them over all other rifles. I like my Mannlichers too and the Savage 99. I like any rifle that was made with pure craftsmanship over cookie cutter rifles. Just my two cents though and I respect everyone else's opinions. I like my Model 673 and my 700s also. Thanks...Bill.

Check the serial number and manufacture date again as the .338 did not come out until 1959.

According to Rule's book on the Model 70... the 338 was a mid year 1959 release...the 338 with the 25 inch bbl is an excellent big game rifle.....however, I prefer the 375

I located an old Bitterroot brochure...cost was $1 plus a self addressed stamped envelope...the brochure states..."Bitterroot Bonded Core bullets are the original since 1964"...

There are lots of original pre 64 Win 70's in 338 and 264 with 1956, 57, & 58 dated receivers.

Winchester made a lot of receivers for the 458 in 1956 and 1957 before finding out that people weren't going to pay more than double for it from other calibers. The receivers were used to assemble it's offspring. All Win Mag actions have 458 stamped on the bottom of the recoil lug to identify the wider rails and mag well opening for the assemblers.

The serial number on this is 46213x.Looks like '58 to me.
It's complete with Weaver roll-over and a Tasco 3-9...Waiting on PhotoBucket to reappear...
And I will be selling one of them shortly..I have entered to world of Double Rifles..I've closed a deal on a Merkel 9.3x74R....rifle

Rule's book on the M70 shows on page 229-... 1959 serial numbers began with # 440793 and ended with 465040...your 338 seems to be one of the first 338s...which were released in mid year 1959...my 338 shows serial number 450xxx....

My other one is SN #49419X and is marked 458 on the bottom of the lug. I have not taken this new one apart yet,but will soon.

It was sometimes odd how Winchester turned these gun loose,my .308FW is a first MONTH release,with a solid bolt knob,aluminum butt,SN 26845X,it was purchased in late 1950's
Roger Rule is a neat guy,we email each other about once a month,man, the stuff that guy knows....

I agree..Rule knows the Model 70....and has forgot more than I will ever know.....I have both the field edition and the autographed limited edition..of "The Rifleman's Rifle"... regardless of the year 1958 or 1959..your M70 338 is one of the first and one heck of a rifle...especially with 52 elk to it's credit!!

1968 is the earliest I am aware of for Steigers' Bitterroots.

It is marked 458 on the lug and I don't think it's ever been out of the stock!!No finsh and very dry on the inside now..

Toltec: OU76 on here found a brochure,stating they started in 1964...been around longer than I thought

rifle: I like the 338!

gots a lot of character don't it!!

That 338 is a character rifle!! I can see it was used for what it was designed for...and 52 elk to boot!!

Leaving now for Wyoming with my 1952 Model 70 30-06 for Shiras Moose...season starts on the 10th...packing in tomorrow..till next time...

Good luck...wish I was there! I would haul the firewood!

It took 12 years to draw this once in a lifetime Wyoming Shiras tag...I drew a Utah once in a lifetime Shiras tag back in 2002 but it was one of those hunts...everything that could and did went wrong.....I finally got a small bull on the last day last 1/2 hour of legal shooting light...

I really like the pre war guns but you have to change out the safety to a pre 64 type of safety..Some outfit used to make those and I can't recall the name, but they worked real well..Also at one time early on Win. would adapt their Mod.54, at no cost, to a pre 64 and those were excellent guns. I have owned a couple of those guns. My uncle mod 54 carbine was returned to Win for that operation, came back with a 70 bolt handle, and M-70 safety.

The best of the Mod. 70 pre 64s was 1952 as I recall.

Ray would that be "Tilden"?

Rifle:Yes that 338 is definately a "character" rifle

Rule learned from Jim Scott of Leon, Iowa. Never gave Jim credit in his book.

How many years did John Nosler hunt without a bonded bullet untill he ran into that Bubba Moose?

The fact is in Idaho up until something like 1976 a guy could shoot anything,Bull or Cow(Elk) anywhere because of the numbers and broadsides were a given most of the time..

That being said and on topic,my(now) Pre '64 Winchester shot great groups right out of the box as I was there with every range session and hunt....

The net can be a strange damn place sometimes with all the scribbling over un important stuff when number one is shot placement and number two is a quality bullet////not at range conditions but in the field under the stress some have.....

I can't remember one year I was not in on atleast ten Elk kills from either helping pack them out to just being a dumbo logger for 40+ years.

My best buddy in McCall Idaho shoots his elk every year with a Marlin 30-30 and factory ammo.

I am Nosler through and through and will never change.It brings home the bacon...My(my dads) pre '64 in .270 Win has scored well over 40 Elk with a cheap Weaver 4X scope and 130 grain bullets....

Horse flies to Elephants,the 130 Nosler get's 'er done in a .270 Win.

Jayco

Hard for me to think of a classier bolt action setup Ron. Good on ya!

Every pre 64 I've seen shot at the range gave aceptable to above average accuracy. 1.5MOA to under MOA

It's that good, atleast mine is..I will put it(My Pre '64 in 270 Win) up against my Weatherby Sub Moa in 30-06 any day with me pulling the trigger under my circumstances,and I have...




Jayco

Super Grade! very nice!

Here is one for sale in Arizona right now. Looks to be all original 1952 30/06. http://phoenix.backpage.com/SportsEquipForSale/750-winchester-pre64-3006/11271177

I am trying to contact the seller as of today.

Hurrah Jayco! Gawd I just luv this stuff.......

I christened an unfired(near as I can tell) pre 64 M70 270FW this week in the wood stock;slapped a 4x28 Leup on it,tightened the guard screws,and got MOA at 300 yards with 60.5-H4831,130 Partitions...I have owned it a couple of years and never shot it......funny thing is I zeroed in 5 shots, the last landing 3" high, fired NO groups at 100 yards;just went to 300 yards with it.....this in the wood stock, no trigger job,no nuthin...(the club president,a National Match Shooter, said the rifle is brand new!)

I'm taking it to Wyoming this fall....I know as much about it as I need to.....it's a pre 64 M70......270Win.............FW............

As Jerimiah Johnson said..

"That is all you need to no"

Jayco

Jim Scott is (or was, don't know how he's doing) a really good guy. I bought some M70's from him and he was always fair. In fact he was so fair he wanted to buy a couple of them back. And he never forgot what I had.

Remember when Jim was selling Super Grades for $450.00? Those were the days. Unfortunately I made $97.00 a month from Uncle Sam.

I've shown this before,but ...I can't help it .270FW

Looking at pre 64's in general, I can sort of understand why the younger guys,or anyone exposed to maybe a "sample of one",asks..."What's so special about them?".....

They certainly aren't fancy...some of the stocks are unsuited to scope use (they were after all invented before scopes became widely popular).Gas handling could have been better,safer, I suppose. And better machining and manufacturing methods are available today....

I guess for me, it has been boiled down to the fact that they have always been very "reliable",dependable, predictable, and generally "user friendly".They have generally worked,fed,extracted, fired,and functioned as they should;no tweaking or pandering to make them function as they were designed to do,or deliver solid if not always fancy,accuracy.

They generally group well and consistently,wood stocks and all;and while they may not always deliver Internet quality groups, they always delivered as much accuracy as most folks are capable of using in the field.And IME if fed modern bullets and components,can group with some of the best custom hunting rifles made today.....I have fired enough bug hole groups with them to know this is true.I have had a Swift that put 3 shots into about 5/8's inch to 3/4's inch.....at 300 yards...and 3-4 300H&H's that stayed sub MOA and threw 10's at the 600 yard line.

You could mount a scope,take them to the range,obtain fine accuracy as they came from the factory,and go hunting.You could count on them to behave and function well,in the field.There were few after market parts required because there was litle else truly better out there to improve on a mostly sound design.

Lots (most)of them were tweaked by hand in some fashion or another because the manufacturing methods of the day required it.

I'm sure some lemons got out of the factory,but compared to some of the problems with some rifles of current manufacture that I hear of, read about,and have experienced myself.....you just NEVER heard these problems discussed or encountered with pre 64's.They were just non-issues IME and that is spread out over 40-50 of them...I've lost count...

I never heard of anyone sending one back to the factory because it didn't work, or function, or shoot....or silly talk about such absurd stuff as "manufactureres warranty"(a con job if ever I heard of one),because it simply wasn't needed....when you bought a pre 64, you didn't buy a warranty, you bought a rifle that worked and did what it was supposed to as it came from the factory, the first time...you didn't need any warranty.

The number of these old rifles stil providing dependable field performance,some of which were made 70+ years ago, is enough testimony to their durability and trustworthiness.

Rant over.....

Well said...BUT,we better stop this thread now or prices will go up again....

The action is pretty good too, even by today's target rifle standards.
John Whidden uses one to shoot long range NRA prone matches.

I have a 264 made in 1960, I have tried a lot of different weight bullets and brands. Best groups have been Nosler 140 partitions with 57.0 grains IMR 4350. Federal match primers It shot really well with 140 Bergers , but I don't like them on game. I like to shoulder shoot, so I don't have to wade through cactus to find animals. Bergers are not good for that.

Bonefish: I own and have owned more than a hundred pre-64 Winchester Model 70's and over the decades I have shot and still shoot probably 35 pre-64 Winchester Model 70's.
Including five or six of them in caliber 30/06.
I have as yet to encounter a pre-64 Winchester Model 70 that did not shoot at least fair.
In other words I have never personally shot one that shot poorly!
Including one Model 70 in 30/06 (manufactured in 1957) that was so dependable, so accurate, and with which I killed so much game from Bears to Elk and Mt Goats to Antelope and three kinds of Deer that I "retired" the Rifle several years ago.
These Rifles are extremely safe, extremely dependable, accurate, quality made (lasts!) and handsome - so much so that I recommend you buy the Rifle if for no other reason than for an investment and pride of ownership.
Best of luck to you if you decide to buy it.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

They suck... Must be hanco bringing up another farting dust and rolling over in it's grave thread... ... I'm waiting for him to bring up one from 1949...

Some old threads are very interesting and informative. It's not like it cost anything.

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. I have a 1951 30/06 that is a consistent 1/2" rifle @ 100 yards and love it.

I have recently found my Holy Grail though, a 1957 (my birth year) 270...waiting for it to be shipped today and I'm like a kid on Christmas Eve.

I have had numerous p64 M70s. Most shot well, some very well.

The one I have now could be described as the best of both worlds. It is a pre war gun, '38 receiver/'40 barrel IIRC. The rifle has family history. A family friend bought it new. Somewhere along the way, the original owner had the rear bridge D/T and a Redfield one piece base nicely fitted to the .270. With the stripper clip slot, that is the easy way.

When the original owner hung his guns up, Cousin bought his three M70s. Along about 63-65, Cousin loaned me the rifle for a couple of years. I could not afford a rifle at the time. I finally bought my own and returned the ..270 to cousin. About ten years ago, Cousin died in an accident. His daughter gifted the rifle to me in his memory. The only change I have made to the rifle is that I replaced the old Weaver with a 3.5-10 Leupold.

I have never shot the rifle for a five shot group ( in the 60's or recently) but once zeroed, I can't recall ever missing a deer, coyote, or rabbit with it. I suppose you could say that it is good enough.

The original owner was a hunter. He used the rifle, scoped it, and padded it. It is not a collector item. My oldest granddaughter, a tall young lady (5'6" at age eleven), will be the next custodian.

Best wishes,

Jack

PS: they are a bit heavy for old farts to pack very far. I suggest a featherweight.

I have only owned 1 pre-63 in my life so don't really know much about them.

I watched an old guy at the local range sit down with what he said was an unmodified or tinkered with 264 with what he said were factory 140 grain Winchester ammo and shoot a nice little round 5 shot group in what appeared to be in the .3's.


I am still impressed.

I can get 3/4 with mine, with Nosler partitions. Way good enough to shoot deer and piggies.

Mine really likes the 165 grand slam. Works a treat on cow elk too.

I have never had my 54 on paper.

My pre-64 shoots great.

I'm sure the 26" Krieger, glassed, pillared and floated in a Boyd Jon Sundra laminated sporter helps.

The Jewell and Z5 3.5-18x42 BT don't hurt.

DF

I'm glad you finally found that one. I was almost willing to give up my 270 fwt to you....

Damn...

Pre 64's do alright. I have not kept real good records over the years....too lazy and who ever thought anyone would GAS?

Here's a few:


264 Win Mag pre 64 M70. 300 yards. The dot is 3".






300 H&H. 2 180 Sierras and one 165 Bitterroot.






A few shots with a 30/06 FW





300 Win Mag pre 64 M70 (yes an original one.... 165 Bitterroot.

BTW these are not cherrie picked. I've thrown out dozens of targets like them fired with more pre 64 M70's than I recall.

In general they do pretty well.

They don't give a chit Bob. Some, in fact, seemed a little pizzed when you post a nice target.. . An old out dated rifle shouldn't shoot that good.

bsa: Well....someone asked.

I think it's just the bitterroot bullets Bob. If I had to shoot any of mine, I'd take my sweet time because they are damn expensive and hard to find...

Well even with expensive bullets you have to know something about how they shoot.

Fortunately I have enough that I could spare a few.

I'm just a titewad Bob. I like shooting el-cheapo bullets:

My rifles don't shoot that good. Somewhere around 1.5 moa. Here's how my 270 fwt shoots:




Here's a couple groups when I was trying to develop a good load with the 150 gr. nosler partition:

You guys will go to hell for lyin just like you will for stealing.

My 30-06 fwt doesn't do too bad:

bsa: Nothing wrong with that.

The 375H&H is damn consistent:

And no those old guns ain't spose to shoot like that, I got a couple too, and they aren't going anywhere but the woods.

The first 2 groups shot with my lightish weight elk rifle:






I really need to work on developing some good loads for this rifle!!!

Nice Bob

Hanco thanks!

I guess we can post customs on the pre 64?

Pre 64 action. Custom tube and Bansner stock. 7 Rem Ma. field prone 300 yards.Circle is 3".....Says Octobers no doubt I was getting ready to head west.


Gunner it is funny to read that old rifles don't shoot.

That be one of em too, LOL, You're saving that stump pic of the old H&H case you get ready to buy it someday, huh?

10-4 Bob, you guys got the accuracy deal figured out here.

I gotta get that old weaver off that rifle, the thread the other day has got me spooked now.

Yeah, that's your supergrade. I keep the picture in my photobucket so I won't forget what a nice model 70 looks like...

For some damn reason, I was thinking I need a good 300 H&H. I hate to admit it, but I've been kicking myself in the azz for not buying one a few years ago that blackdog1 had in a nice McMillan stock. Too good of a deal to pass up, but for some dumb reason I chose to not take it home....

Yeah, I'm a little leery about using the old steel tube K4 on my 270 fwt now...

Yes, you NEED a 300 H&H, the perfect stablemate to your 375.

Might as well breakdown and buy a new gloss 3.5-10x40 Leupold to go with those shiny Conetrols.

1960 FWT in edge stock 2.5x8 Vari X III. 500 yard groups a few years back and last fall, prone in sling off pack:

Factory .270 barrel 130 Hornadys



Shot out that barrel and added a 6.5-06 Rock 5R purchased from a member and shot this with 127 LRXs last fall



I think I'll keep it!

You're set Mike, good shooting.

Thanks, now if I could do that every time...

Blame the wind and coffee, I do all the time.

MikeS I don't see much difference between the 270 and the 6.5/06......


How'd that happen?

Glad to see this thread! Never get tired of reading about old Model 70's!

I have 2 pre-64's. One is a 1952 .30-06 that is one of the two most accurate rifles I own. Still in factory stock, no bedding or other tweaks. The other is a 1963 .300 Win Mag that was in a Boyd's laminate stock when I got it, appeared to have been shot very little. It shoots as good as the .30-06.

Have mostly shot Federal Fusion 150 gr in the '.06, started and stuck with Federal loadings of 130 Barnes in the .300. Those things are extremely accurate in that gun! I've killed both hogs and deer with the 130's in the Win Mag, last season loaded some in my .300 Savage 99 and took my deer with one, have some loaded in .30-06 to try next.

Have a 1968 .30-06 Mannlicher Model 70 and a SC Featherweight .270 that don't shoot as well on paper as the pre-64's, but the .270 has killed everything it's been pointed at, including my best whitetail to date.

Mike

I liked it a lot, that's why I resurrected it. You can't have too many Sako's model 70's or Kleinguenther's in my opinion!!

I noticed that as well.

And I can't seem to hit the dot with either one...

Put an older Leupold Mark 4 10X M1 on it this morning to play around with. Shot the below group with 123 A-Max's over H4831 this afternoon from a bench at 100 yards (1" grid). I may leave this scope on it for my November Coues hunt.

I looked at this post recently with great interest. Always interested in learning about pre 64 model 70's. Took me a while to realize that I started this post 6 years ago I bought a 30-06 model 70 pre-64. It shot great with factory ammo. Sub MOA. I gave it to someone as a thanks for letting me shoot his deer. Now I want another one just like it.

What more could you ask for from a hunting rifle?

I'm gonna take one with me to lease and blast some pigs this weekend.

Great old thread. Thanks for bringing it back up.

Never tried a 6 shot group...

I have a couple pre-64’s - 300 H&H and a 375 H&H AI. I’ve had a few other bolt action Winchesters, but no longer. The other Winchesters I have now are lever guns and also a 1885.
I think these old rifles belong in the hunting fields. I don’t have a hunting need for the 375, right now. It sure would be nice if/when I find a need.
The 375 has been altered (AI chamber, rebluing(?), and recoil pad) and the 300, I think, is factory.
I’m trying to find a sweet load for the 300 now and it looks like a day at the range today. I don’t know what to do with that fore-end screw but I’ll be messing with it, I sort of wish it wasn’t there.
I’ve shot the 375 quite a bit more than the 300, mostly off hand. They both have a M8 4x on them with quick detachable Leupold rings - I have a spare M8 4x in the same rings. If I go on a trip with either, the spare scope will be sighted in, just in case.

I like these rifles’ triggers. Maybe a gunsmith worked these over sometime in the past but they are sweet - crisp and about 2 1/2 lb. I wish they still made triggers that way.

My 35 Whelen was also a pre-64, but it’s been altered so much, it’s a gun made out of parts.

I once picked up a 1947 M70sporter in 270, it had a Griffon and Howe mount and a Lyman Alaskan 4X scope.
Danged thing shot really well, three shot groups less than 3/4" were normal.
However because the stocks on those old M70's kick me like a mule I moved it over to a friend for something else.
I also have a log book of my father's that he used when he worked for a large Canadian ammo company.
In it are some test results of bullets he was testing in a .220 Swift M70 in 1954 or so.

The only mods to the rifle were a couple of pie plate shims under the action.
Scope was a l 15X Lyman Super Targetspot (( which I happen too have !)
Danged rifle was capable of shooting 5 shot groups into 1/2" with some of the bullet and powder combinations!
Of course there were some that were 1.5" and larger as well! LOL
Cat

This answer your question for you? FWT 3006 Hornady 180gr, 58gr H4350 F210s

OR...308 FWT

My 1954 vintage .30-06 standard rifle, unaltered in any way and with Leupold 3-9, will cluster 3 shots like Jorge's much of the time. 165 Sierra hpbt's, 47 grs. Varget, Lapua brass. It'll also slop 5 into Sub-MOA with a 180 grain cast bullet over 20gr. SR-4759, when using a 10x Unertl target scope.

I've honestly never messed with the forearm screw except to "make it snug" by feel.

Minute of Elk.



This old rifle loves a heavy load of 4064 and Hornady 150gr SP bullets. 180's and 4350 are nearly as accurate and work well on the bigger critters.

Looks like you brought it up 3 hours ago. ha ha.. Do pre 64 model 70's shoot well?

Shoot buddy, I could EASILY get by the rest of my days with what they chambered in P64's and I bet I wouldn't miss out on much. Heck to be honest, I pretty much do now. 270, 30-06, 7 Mashburn (Mag action), 338 Win and 375 Improved... Nothing at all I couldn't get done with those, anywhere.

Man, I love that picture. One of my favorites.

In 1984 I shot a 243 and 220 swift in pre 64.
They belonged to a family member.


Now, in 2021, I own 8 pre 64 rifles, and I only shoot them after I rebarrel them.

I have a pre-64 '06 that dates to 1952. First few groups, with 165gr Hornadys and 58gr H4350, werearound 2" at 100yds. After a week of repeated soakong and scrubbing with JB compound, it settled in at back-to-back-to-back 3/4" groups. Problem solved.

Mine too - it was a memorable hunt...........now that I have forgotten how much work it is to get one of those sucker out by yourself.

That's a great picture and yes, it is a lot of work. You did well... Since this is an accuracy thread on pre 64's. Here's one of mine with a bull I took 2 years ago:



The beauty in this rifle is its always ready to go elk hunting:


Picture sucks, as it was taken with my Oregon 550 GPS... Yeah, for the most part, pre 64 model 70 winchesters shoot very well.. While I'm at it. Here's a 30-06 fwt that I will never part with:

I only have one, 375H&H. Still have the original 2 lug stock but it doesn't fit me well so it is hunted in a custom Brown Prec. Scarry accurate it has taken 3 cape buffalo, various plains game a bunch of deer and a few coyotes. My idea of a "black rifle".

Very nice. There is mucho beauty in the versatility of that rifle. I thought that was a Brown Precision stock. My 338wm wears a PoundR.. Extremely nice stocks with great ergo's that help to soak up that recoil.

Last week I got to shoot a first year production "Short RIfle", It had been drilled and tapped early in it's life, and had a Weaver 2.5X scope on it. In addition to it being a 1937 model, it had been very well taken care of, it had character in it's stock and metalwork, but it was still in great shape. With that somewhat foggy scope (it was pretty bad) I shot three shots of a mild cast-bullet load into 1.25 inches, and I'd never seen that rifle before I shot it.

If the previous owner took good care of it, it's probably as good as that old M70 Short Rifle, and it probably shoots well enough to hunt anything you'd care to chase with it. It was, of course a .30GOV'T06, but was loaded to .30/30 specs or thereabouts. I really enjoyed that rifle it's a sweetheart.

that picture makes me want to hunt elk with a pre64 -06 - thanks

That one and a bunch of the other pictures in this thread!

I blame you all for the current state of my bank account...but I can't wait to hear the mail has arrived.

Went and bought myself a 1948 vintage 70 standard grade, one of the cleanest I've ever seen. Put a vintage 1970s Leupold (THE HORROR) 3X9 on it and this is what I got with factory and one hand loads. Note they all were pretty much POI with all loads... Three shot groups for the most part...

150 Nosler AB handloads:


Norma 130gr (three shots plus one high after final correction)

WW Power Points:
https://i.imgur.com/U9sO7S7.jpg
And RP CoreLockts:

Wow, that IS a good shooter! And good shooting on your part too, JorgeI. How can you not like it when they put many different loads into just about the same area if not group.

Still sounds like a nice rifle. Just found and put money down on a 1948 standard rifle too, but this ones in 30 gov't 06

Thank you and like I commented, it's one of the cleanest I've ever owned and I've owned (own) a few of them, but the fact it shot to POI with basically four different bullet manufacturers and my hand loads was a bonus indeed.

Welcome! Will we see the rifle, too?

I'll get some close ups and post.

Right on, looking forward to seeing that!

Will post some of mine (and groups) as well, in a couple weeks

Here you go..

I had 3 pre-64s, 2 scoped, 1 with irons. The scoped guns were a .257 Roberts with a Redfield Widefield 3-9X and an '06 with a "Bearcub" (?) 4x in a tip-off mount. The iron sighted gun was a .375 H&H with a SN in the mid 650s.

The .257 and '06 were roughly 1-1/4" guns at 100 yards with their preferred loads. The .375 was minute of coffee cup at 50 yards .. I never really pushed it past that. They were good for their time, good for what their owners expected. They wouldn't be bragging guns in the accuracy department today.

Tom

Quite comical.

Yeah, all of mine shoot as well as any other rifle I own. Usually darned good.

That really is clean! Thank you

Perhaps you should have (sic) pushed them? Or "operator error" comes to mind....

probably a 700 guy...in 6.5 queermoor

i own a few model 70 pre 64`s most shoot good enough to hunt with but i have one in a featherweight 264 Win. mag that i bedded , floated barrel ,did a little trigger work and with my handloads this rifle shoots 5 shot 100 yards groups an honest 1/2 inch . the rifle is a 97 % and now is a safe queen for now.