I remember reading an article or two published a year or so after the Whelen made it's debut as a commercial cartridge and the author was talking about how much of a commercial success it was.

Now, don't cartridges that fail usually fail right out of the gate? If what the author said was true, why was there a delayed reaction with the Whelen?

Landrum

Guessing I need a better understanding of 'fail'

Why it failed to be a commercial success. That's all.

CW

From what I understand, the .35 Whelen sold well the first couple of years after introduction--at least for an over-.30 round.

Then everybody who wanted one apparently had one, and sales dropped off rapidly. Even Remington doesn't chamber it except occasionally in short runs.

In other words, it never threatened the .338 Winchester Magnum as THE over-.30 chambering in factory rifles. In fact, far more companies chamber the .338 than the .375 H&H.

I think I did a far amount better than quite a few new introductions. I know lots of folks with one, haven't met anyone with a 30TC, 223WSSM, 243WSSM, 25WSSM or 338/06.

Not surprising. The 338 is excellent

Yeah, the .338 Winchester magnum is what keeps just about any other middle-.30 from really taking off. It's a world-wide standard, and deserves to be--even if it has a belt!

Give the 325WSM a few more years...........grin

Those that use the 35whelen know the differance. A 250gr bullet @2500+ fps seems to stagger a big animal better than the 338, more in the league of the 9.3's and 375's. Old people have already discovered what works and why the younger crowd needs new and especially if magnum is attached to the moniker. With the 35 you use 10 less grains of powder, less recoil for better on game performance. My experience only, yours may vary.

Oh, yeah! The .325 is definitely turning the .338 into yesterday's news. I have actually met two people who own one....

"The .35 caliber is used by experienced and knowledgeable hunters. Most meat hunters who shop at China-Mart will pick .270, .308, .30-06, 7mmRM or .300WinMag. Many will not even know what bullet sectional density is."

A quote from "Paolo" on another forum.

WN

How do they decide which one is going to use it ?

The 338 just puts them down so fast that the stagger is often missed

...uhhhhhhh...


3

We draw straws, and the winner looses...

I thought it was a coin toss!

not in my experience, while no flies on the 338, the 35 is better. just sayin'

His bowels?

While the 35 Whelen is OK, the 338 win is excellent..

I would guess because there were already a lot of them out there. The new purchases were probably by folks that hadn't found one.

I had wanted one since I was a kid and finally found one a guy had made up for a moose hunt. I had to have the throat lengthened to get it to SAAMI specs but that is all.

I also liked getting the properly headstamped brass.

The 225 grain Sierra, Nosler, Swift and Trophy Bonded when loaded with R-15 really make the gun excellent for my purposes. A great brush country elk rifle.

It does 95% of what my 338 does, less kick, 4+1 [blind magazine], and a serious cool factor I think f guys in plaid shooting moose when I hold it].

The Federal factory load is so good that I generally just load Sierras for practice and use the factory stuff to hunt with.

I probably should have bought a SS Hawkeye when they were available. I suppose now they are discontinued.

I use the Whelen for moose and bbears, although a few deer were taken because of the pepperoni factor, wasn't hunting deer . If I had a choice and I did have a choice between the two I would pick the whelen. Today i moved to a 9.3 because i wanted a sako stainless rifle, pretty much duplicates the whelen's performance with out the belt and long barrel and the recoil.

As I see it, the biggest issue with the "failure" of the Whelen has to do with the ignorance of the people writing the reviews, buying the guns, and the need for the Whelen to be handloaded to maximize it's potential. A good 250grain Whelen handload is the equivalent of many 338 Factory loads.

My 700 classic reaches 2525fps with a 250grain Speer Hot-Cor. That load will retain over 2121FPE out to 300yds with a 10.1" drop when zeroed @200yds.

Common 250 grain 338Win factory loads have the following energy figures @300yds.

Federal 250 Partition - 2120fpe [-8.8"@300]

Remington 250PSP - 2075fpe [-8.9"@300]

Winchester 250partition gold- 2122fpe [-8.7"@300]

Federal 250grain Partition HE- 2250fpe [-7.8"@300]

Even when comparing the newer 225grain 338Win loads to a good Whelen 250Grain handload, the 338 only holds about 100-150fpe advantage.

The Whelen suffers only from biased opinions and marketing blunders. If it was marketed correctly by Remington for what it is, and the outdoor media gave it a fair review, the Whelen would be one of the first choices for medium to large game for more hunters.

Instead Remington and others do their best to kill it off like they do to the 260 Remington and 358 Winchester.

....so...?

It doesn't have a belt and doesn't say "MAGNUM".

FP--What am I missing here? Whelen's don't have a belt

referance 338Win mag, which has a belt, whelens do not, 9.3x66Sako does not have a belt, these two duplicate the performance ( as near as possible) of the 338, in a shorter , lighter package and with a bullet of greater frontal area contributing to more on target trauma,

well, I have one now, and I hope to use it on elk this fall. It had been someone's custom rifle, built on a 1915 Mauser action. I put a Burris 2-7X33 scope on it and will have it out shooting next weekend.

The guy at the gun store gave me a deal on it just to make it go away and he even sold me the last box of shells he had for just $20. He said no one around here was interested in that caliber.

Good for you. Check out the new Federal Fusion ammo for the Whelen for deer, or get yourself some reloading equipment. The Whelen is easy to load for and really responds to good ammo.

I do intend to eventually get into reloading. I also have a .35 Remington and there is a lot of good reloading info out there for that one, too. I would eventually like to also pick up a .358 Win, just to round out the collection.

That would be a fun threesome, for sure.

Later add a 350 Rem Mag, just for schidts and giggles.

that would be a fun box of ammo to ask for at the local gun counter.... ;-)

Only reason I can think of is that the 350 Rem mag has become such a hot item. Only a few of us loonies want to have both!

FP

Now that I re-read your post with a cup of coffee this morning, it became clearer what you were saying. Couldn't agree more.

WN

rar

When I travel I like to stop at small gun shops whenever possible just to cruise the racks. Normally the guy behind the counter will ask what I'm looking for and I'll usually mention 35W, 350RM, or 358WCF. Responses have varied greatly!

Great conversation starter, though!

WN

Yep, mine varies.

A double tap from a 223AI is better than both......

In the spirit of this thread, the 222 Magnum kills better than the 223....

Oh No, I've got the 223.. I'll now have to get the better one

I came THAT close to coming home with a 222 Remington magnum this weekend but the price was a tad high.

SHEESH!!!

There are disbelievers of The Real Truth on every thread today!


Ingwe

Ain't non twisted fer schit. Best to make one.

Some nice rifles chambered for it though.

It was free, but having to explain it to friends and loved ones was just too high a price to pay...

Dat was good.....

Ingwe

Kinda funny, there's guys that think handgun concepts work on rifles and rifle concepts that work on handguns.

I'll take the better shot placement over headstamp, primarily...

Been there with the face deal, huh?

Well, headed to Cabelas in search of something 17 or 20 caliber. Not holding out much hope but you never know.

You'd think with everyone having sixty-seven 270's, 300 Mags and 300WSM's on the shelf that someone would stock just something a little different.

I can go to 5 gunshops and the racks at one pretty much mirror the other.

Now, if we could just talk Barnes into a 32 gr TSX in .20 cal....

Ingwe

On the flip side I picked up a bunch of Barnes at Cabelas two weeks ago. The 243 85gr TSX and 100gr 257 were $18.99 a box and the 53gr TSX were $16.99 per. Barnes also has the $5 back per box for up to 10, so it was a pretty sweet deal.

$16.99 for 53s...DANG!

Ingwe

You can't beat $11.99 per after the $5 a box rebate.

Sako used to make a nice Vixen in 17 Rem.. Saw your looking for a light robertcat/fox gun.

Chopped to 18.5 it handles nicely.

I believe Kimber makes a 204 in a Montana...

Yeppers on the TSX ingwe. A feller with your pull, or who "pulls" as much as you do, can get it done.

I thought those were those expensive dollar a bullet bullets??? If their that cheap thye can't shoot as goood as those dollar a bullet bullets!

I bought a .35 Whelen in Ruger SS recently. I got it new on Gunbroker, but understand Ruger is no longer producing it. Had it out to the range a couple of weeks ago shooting rem 250 grainers. It was stout but not painful to shoot. And I am 56 years old. maybe thats why I bought a classic caliber to use for Niglai here in S. Texas.

It would appear that since Remington/Freedom group bought them...I have no pull....

Not even a birthday card.....

Ingwe

Did you "lean against a wall" when they showed them to you?

My long throated 35Whelen will launch 225gr Barnes TSX's 2900+fps, my cousins 338Win launches Barnes 225gr TSX's at 2750fps. My 30-06 does 2900 with a 168gr TSX.

As I say about the 280 Remington, and the same holds true here, good cartridges such as the 35 Whelen are never lost on those of us that load from scratch.


Good point Bandit.

Loose: to set something free from its tether or restraint.

Lose: to misplace

I think you made an excellent choice !!!

I didn't know it had failed.

So does that make me a loony?

No, that doesn't make you a loony. No more than me thinking about the 300 WSM 25 years before it came on the market.

A handloaded 280 runs a 175gr HornadaySP 2700fps out of a 22"bbl. By comparison a 7RemMag runs a 175gr (outa of the green and yellow box) 2730 ish in a 24" bbl.

Furprick,
You are on a roll today!
Just as long as you keep in mind that there is nothing more manly than a "Belted Maggie"..
Now if they would only put a belt on the .223 Rem.

That's a mighty slow 338 load. I get 2900+ with 225 TSX bullets. The 338 225's have a higher SD & BC. Never seen an animal remain on his feet after taking one from a 338 win mag

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The 35 Whelen works within its limitations (e.g., no elephants), and is mild on the shoulder.

73gr H4831, 225TSX = 2750fps out of a 24" metric equivelent bbl in the Sako pretty much duplicates a faactory load. 63gr Varget in the 225gr Whelen load

I really like my Whelen, but I'm thinking of re-barreling to .30-.35 Whelen. I haven't noticed much difference in effect, if any.

I try to stay away from wildcats, myself...

There's probably enough loading data on that wildcat that I won't be playing in uncharted territory.

I believe it's official name is .300 Whelen. I am getting kind of eager to try one!

Thank you. I have a tough time keeping up with all the latest wildcats.

I suspect the .300 version might really versatile!

Have you tested it yet?
Maybe you could be the first to write an article on it.

My friend Ron Spomer beat me to it....

Too bad! At least you were the first with the 29.5 something or other. I can't remember the exact name.

It was the B-29

Good memory. Perhaps if he had added a belt it would have been a commercial success. As I recall, a few people wanted the original version.

Hey! now that can me an idea! A 7mm-35 Whelen that is the ticket.

But what if you necked that down to .277? That would be awesome! Or just shove a .284 bullet into it, instead of a 7mm. My god, wildcats are aplenty today.

Great idea. Maybe you could use the improved case so it doesn't bounce off big deer.

. Gee, all that speed with what amounts to popcorn fart powder charges for a 338 with 250s. I like the Whelen a ton, but only by going to the 9.3 are you going to get close to a 338. Capacity always rules. Unless we are content ignore some physics.
I shoot a long throated Whelen, but it is still a good 200 fps behind a 338 and critters don't like either one about the same.

On a side note I visited 2 gun stores today (Cabelas was one), not a single 223, 204, 22/250 or 17 anything (besides HMR) was to be found in a bolt action rifle. Not a single stinking rifle out of probably 250 rifles I saw today.

Of course I could have filled the bed of my truck with 270, 300WSM, 30/06 and 300 Win Mag. WTF

Well, you did go to a Cabelas....

I'm sure they were flush with camo panties and shotshell koozies that said Cabelas on them....

I'll take the bait. Why wouldn't that equate to a 30-06 ?

Reloader28

I believe they're funnin' ya.

Landrum

It does. That's the joke.

A factory 338Win 250gr bullet runs 2660fps, my whelen runs 2684fps with 250gr Barnes FXB's my 370 sako runs a 250gr Accubond 2650fps, factory duplicate load in a 2" shorter barrel, results on game are the same. The 338,358 and 366' diameter bullets will all exit on a broad side shot on a medium sized bull moose. The added frontal area causes more distruction on the way through, however. with these penetration is not an issue so more frontal area is better

It's obvious that the 35 Whelen's lack of endurance is due to the public realizing that the 358 Norma was a clearly superior choice. JMO, Dutch.

To add to this insanity, now that a hunter can use a .35Whelan during "primitive" season here in Miss, you can find ammo in even little stores. There was such a run on barrels for the Encore you couldn't even find then and when you could they brought a premium. BTW I hunt with a .222mag also. Guess I'm just outa-touch...

So we are comparing factory to reloads, exceptional reloads at that.

I dunno about moose, but I've seen the 250 Partition 358 not exit a hog 3 out of 4 shots. I've never recovered a 250 Nosler 338, but I don't think that really matters....

The whole frontal area on expanding bullets seems silly to me, especially when we are going up one caliber. Do you measure recovered bullets, the bullet path or what? Bear in mind tissue displacement is greater for faster moving bullets.

Only one question: if I poured in said powder charges in a 338 WM and topped it with the same weight bullet, is it going to go faster or slower in a 338?

Hawk1;

Your last question doesn't make sense... you may want to reword it!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I've owned a couple of .338WM's, a .35 Whelen and 2 .350 Rem mags. There are a lot of variables to consider in handloads... for example: length of throat, barrel length, magazine length, tightness of chamber and bore, etc.

My first .338 was a SAKO full-stock carbine with 20" barrel. Really pushing it with RL-22, 2675 fps was possible from some 250s. 2800 was max from 225s. The Browning A-Bolt with a 26" tube was a far different story! With a book load of RL-19 it easily made 2840 fps from the 250 Hornady SP and shot into .75 MOA!

All of my .35s were Remingtons with 22" tubes: The Whelen from RL-15 could quite easily do 2635 fps, and one .350RM consistently made 2710 fps and shot into .5 to .75 MOA! Those were 250gr loads. 2800 fps was normal for the 225 NP from both the Whelen and the fast .350. That's from the FWIW dept'

I prefer the .35's for reasons already mentioned by others.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob, your right, it DOESN't make sense. His 35 Whelen loads exceed powder charges for even the 338!

What I'm trying to say is, for an entrepreneur (not me!), 2,900 should be feasible from a 338; it has more powder capacity than a 35 Whelen, much as I like it, long throated or other wise.

I have had no troubles loading two 24" bbl 338's to 2,800, but that's about as far as I'd take it. Loading it to equal a 340 WBY only proves I can pour more powder in....

Same powder charge same bullet weight, the smaller combustion chamber will have a higher pressure. is that additional pressure going to drive that bullet faster...........I don't know. The cartridge case is the combustion chamber but also the barrel forms part of it as well as the ever expanding gases continue down the barrel behind the bullet the larger bore will have greater volume, thus containing energy at a lower pressure, if you want to up the pressure you must up the energy. Anyway, it is well known that a normal 35whelen ( minimum dimensions)will run a 250gr bullet to 2600fps and a 225gr bullet to 2800fps. that is squarely in 338win Mag territory. And, you have the ability to use necked up 30-06 lapua brass for the 35, oopps did I say that outloud!

Furprick,

I still see it as 200 fps (not that it matters to critters) if both are handloaded, which both need to be. Not handloaded, the 338 beats up the Whelen due to factory pressure differences and of course, more case capacity.

Note that "contained energy at lower pressure" also has a powder burn rate to consider.

The "frontal area" argument is just that, a 270 v 280 argument, using same/same bullets.

For game shooting I doubt much could be gained or lost by using either; for speed, ballistics and long range the 338 always wins, by numbers.

Have you tried the Norma 35 Whelen cases?

not the Norma cases just lapua 30-06 run through the 35W die.I agree, by the numbers and at the same pressure the 338 trumps the whelen in velocity for a given bullet weight. The 270-280 arguement is just so much noise on deer sized game,both kil equally as well and trajectory differances are small, when shooting big moose, bears and the like the 280 is superior to the 270 on virtue of heavier available bullets = more penetration. In the mediums >30 and <40 with a bullet weight that will penetrate the animal through and through then frontal area becomes a factor in upping the performance....bigger hole. I have only killed a few moose and several bbears with the 338, which I gave up most of 2 decades ago for the whelen. my cousin uses a 338W for elk and g-bears for the most part and has had nothing but success with that caliber (225gr TSX @ 2750fps). the 35 whelen is not a 'looser' cartridge, its a waste on deer but comes into its own when large tough animals are encountered or very useful hunting deer in big bear country, in central BC there is a bear of some sort behind every tree it seems.thanks for allowing a healthy discussion on these two worthy cartridges. Plus I hand load all cartridges and the 338w is just too main stream....

I think the type of bullet used will have more of a bearing on frontal area and the wound channel diameter than one caliber of bullet.

When going the similar S.D. route, about another 100 fps can be gained from the 338 belted case (a 200-215 338 can safely near or hit 3,000 fps v. a 225 358; or a 225 338 at 2,950 v. a 250 358).

I've seen too many lower SD bullets out penetrate higher SD bullets to buy into the SD arguement. Bullet construction and design have a much larger bearing on penetration

I went right to the .250 whelen for this year hunting.

I see, you are going to focus on rabbits this year.

I have had both a .338 WM and a .35 Whelen, the .338 WM with 275gr. Speer bullets over a generous load of IMR 4350 was definately a killer. Never lost an elk or mulie shot with that combination, it put them down for keeps with authority I might add. I sold the .338 a few years ago and sent a pre '64 M/70 to Randall Redman for rebore/rechamber in .35 Whelen, it is the most accurate rifle I own. I like the flexibility of having the option to shoot jacketed bullets from 180gr. to 250gr.,ditto for cast bullets and for small game or plinking .357 pistol bullets. I shot the Whelen yesterday with cast bullets, 210gr. over 15gr. of Unique. At 100yds. that load made nice tight groups about 1 1/2" and ws very easy on the gun and shooter. The .35 Whelen is kind of my nostalgia rifle, it is topped with a 2 1/2X Lyman Alaskan in a Griffin & Howe double lever mount.

old willys,

I am going to use the .250 Whelen myself on pronghorn this fall, and maybe even a deer or two. Another excellent wildcat based on the Colonel's .35!

I used the 35 Whelan and the 338-06 some years back, but when I tried my first .338 Win. and got 3005 FPS with a 210 Nosler and 2700 FPS with a 250 gr. Nosler and almost 2500 FPS with a 300 gr. Woodleigh in my 24 inch barrel, I just never quit the .338 Win. Not saying the other medium bores are not as good on game in the field from a practical point of view, just that I have come to believe the 338 Win is the best balanced meduim bore rifle ever..It has the sectional density for enormous penetration and it kills as well as my .375 H&H as far as I can tell..

To each his own and it really makes little difference one way or the other, but its my choice. My only challange is the 9.3x62, a round I really like, but when push comes to shove the 338 will put the 9.3x62 in the back seat IMO...

As to all the calibers discussed on this thread, I have found they ALL work well for thier intended purpose, and this discussion, like most of these "caliber discussions" have more to do with opinnion and emotion than fact. and I suspect if we shot a hundred animals with each of these calibers, and were honest with ourselves, we would still be as confused as we are now as to which one is best. and "thats the rest of the story!"

If the .338 kills as well as a .375 and the .300 mag with good bullets kills as well as a .338 and the .300 Whelen kills as well as the .300 mag, then the .300 Whelen must equal the .375.

Makes sense then that that is why it was never offered commercially. It would have made obsolete too many other cartridges.

The only failure of the 35 Whelen is that a lot of American hunters don't get the 35 calibers.
I have taken many WT deer and a nice Black Bear with my M700 Classic 35 Whelen. The first two years (1988 1989) I used the factory 200 gr PSPCL load to take 4 WT bucks. I switched to the 225 gr PT in 1990 and that is all I have used since. Always leaves a nice exit wound.
The 35 Whelen is a hammer and is close to the 338 Win Mag. That is why I went with the 338 RUM for a true long range thumper.

JD338

I've never used the 200 grain CoreLokt on game. What kind of performance did they give you, and why did you settle instead on the 225? Didn't the 200s leave an exit hole on deer?

Hey there Bulletbutt!

I used the 200-gn Hornady Interlock on 5-6 deer from a .358 (at Whelen speeds though) and it always exited. I'd think it'd be pretty similar to a Corelokt.

The reason *I* use 225's in my .358 is twofold. One, it's a more versatile load in that I have also hunted elk with it. Two, the BC on those .35 200-grainers is awful- like in the low .2's. Now getting hung up on BC is silly, usually, but in this case not so much because the 225 NP has a BC well over .4 and the result is, you can actually use it out to about 400 yards, which in my experience you cannot with the 200's. They move around way too much in the wind and shed velocity like crazy, too.

Mr. Barsness reports that the 225 NP is a medium-penetrator, not a deep penetrator. I don't know. They blow right through our little poodle deer like they weren't even there, that much I know! You could even say.. they "way overpenetrate"!

Jeff,
How do you get Whelen speeds from your .358 at safe pressures?

I bought a Ruger Hawkeye 35 Whelen earlier this year too and its the best move I've made in a long time. Would have hated to miss out on the chance to get one of those new in the box. I procrastinated on the Weatherby Ultralight in 338/06 and missed my chance.

Who would you recomend to rebarrel a m700Rem to .300 or .250 Whelen? Do they make a .27Whelen wildcat yet??

Thinking we need a Whelen photo.

Nice!
If there is ever an escaped circus tiger you are good to go! Here is a picture of my 35 Whelen Remington Classic and its big sister a Remington SPSDG in 375 H&H Magnum. I have overcome my fear of pushfeeds!
Remington came out with a 8mm Magnum back in the 80's, how many companies are building rifles for that?
One of the big problems with the 35 Whelen is that it is hard to justify owning any other rifles, once you have seen what the 35 Whelen is capable of!

Good cartridges keep on goin' and goin' and goin'.....

Look at the .30-06 now...none of the Johnny come latelys have unseated it from a most practical and deserved throne. Not the .308 or the .270....


Puttin' on my asbestos suit...

Yes there is a 27whelen wildcat, it is a great gun for ladies and young hunters, even though the rest of us know it will only kill squirrels and is unsuited for bug game.

One of the big problems with the 35 Whelen is that it is hard to justify owning any other rifles, once you have seen what the 35 Whelen is capable of!



You have it right, I bought a 9.3 to duplicate the whelen but in a Sako M-85

I happen to know a Whelen junky...



He is so much he built a 400:




As far as the chrony and powder goes, it replicates a 375 HH.

The Whelen rocks!

I prefer Steelhead's color scheme. At least if I set it down to take a leak, I'd be able to find it again.

A 300 Whelen, now that would be somthimg a Whelen necked down
to 30 caliber.

Good luck!

EddyBo, I think you right about the .27Whelen making a good squirrel gun and it would work great on fox squirrels but wouldn't it "over penetrate" the young cat squirrels?

Well, if we're doing pictures now...




This one's heading to the East Kutenays in 46 days in search of Shiras Moose. I'm confident the 250 Hornadys will be up to the task.

This rifle was bought on a whim, back when funds were flush, & Big Green was giving 'em away for some reason. I had no idea the rifle, and the cartridge, would endear themselves to me so.

Oh... it seems to shoot pretty well, too. Here are 9 shots on my patented, super-sophisticated target media:



I don't know if #2 & #5 were flinches, or just the result of trying to shoot groups with a 4x. Either way, I'm proclaiming this rifle's accuracy to be "Minute o' Moose".

FC

Looks to me that you missed the orange dot nine times in a row.

Oh ye of little faith... What you can't see is that there were nine more staples when he started shooting at them...and he hit all nine of them!

No, those are the moose eyes and he put all nine shots between them.

Awwww, c'mon, guys! I was just looking at different loads, before I dialed-in the crosshairs!

Hey, what if I found a great shooting load for some 73.659 grain TTSX .35 cal bullets at 4000 fps???? We all know that big game animals are far more allergic to copper than they are lead...

FC

That's o.k. I can take a joke.

You go, Dude !!