I am fairly familiar with revolvers, and like the way a small 5-shot handles.

However, I could carry triple the amount of ammo in a nice 9mm.

For carry, defense, stuffing in a daypack, plinking at coyotes--what are pros/cons of each?

Just about every logical reason favors the 9mm semi-auto. I still prefer my Smith & Wesson M442.

I have thoughts like Oregon45, except my favorite is an old Model 10 Smith. Not 5 shot, but light enough for me.

IMHO, if you need 15 rounds of 9mm, then you've got problems that a handgun probably can't solve.

+1.SP101.

There - this thread could have gone for 27 pages. For me its a Ruger SP 101 - five shot .38 Special.

So many fail to grasp the very basic concept that perhaps that one of the primary functions of having a higher capacity auto is not to shoot more, but to manipulate less.

Time not spent fiddling with reloading is time spent looking at a threat, looking at your surroundings or coming up with an alternative solution to your problem.

Rossi 720 5-shot 44 Special.

2 rounds of CCI snakeshot.
3 rounds of 200 grain Winchester/Olin Silvertip.

JEff

I carry a S&W J-frame more often than I carry my S&W 9mm. Its lighter easier to conceal and just a personal favorite. Im sure you can find some research that most encounters are 2 or 3 shot affairs but thats strictly situational. For me I have 100% confindence in any of my J-frames. It goes bang EVERY single time and right where I want it. I do carry my 5906 more often OC around the property or while hunting in the event we arent seeing anything and we decied to plink. Ive not had a FTF with my 9mm but having had a J-frame type snubby in my inventroy since the beginning Im just more comfortable with it.

Roger that. My 642 carries well & shoots well FOR ME. At self-defense distances, it's going to do what I need to do given the places I generally go.

It's all a personal decision: you've got to be extremely comfortable with YOUR choices.

FC

So what you're saying is slow, deliberate, aimed fire, rather than "spray and pray"?

JEff

What a concept!

That's the best argument in favor of a semi-auto for concealed carry.

I prefer 5 accurate shots than spraying 15 semi-accurate shots.


ddj

Thats true - and I do think it falls right under all those logical reasons in favor for the autos.

Somehow I think here we are talking not so much the logical, but more so the emotional side of things - those diffuse grounds why one arm stays strapped and the other stays safed...

Five shots for sure beats any number of maybe's. I have a cop friend who says he always hopes the gun-armed bad guy has a semi-auto, and the cheaper the better. One perp's frame cracked and died on the first shot. Another bad guy was overpowered trying to rack the slide, before the first shot, even though the chamber was already loaded, jamming the gun, because that's what he always saw in the movies.

I carry revolvers and semi-auto's, but I never feel under-gunned carrying a revolver. Confidence is key.

Here is a cut and paste from a thread I started called "assumptions in regards to handguns". It may provide some entertaining reading for some here:

I prefer a semi auto with a higher capacity if I can get it in a reasonable package. I have no intention of using every round on board but it is available if needed. Plus I may not feel the need to reload in a bad situation quite so soon, if at all. The whole thing about "it is better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" comes into play.

I have used wheelguns in the past off duty and will continue to do so but you will not see me badmouthing the current crop of autoloaders. In the colder weather months if I am home,I often carry a 4" or 5" .44 in a Milt Sparks belt holster under my jacket. Mostly this is on days I am in the hills or around large livestock.

Carrying a revolver does not automatically make one a cooler head in a fight or a surer shot. That is pure hogwash.Stating that anyone who carries a high cap gun or an auto is in the "spray and pray" crowd shows both a lack of intelligence and a lack of real world experience. I suppose it makes them feel better to be the morally superior handgunner. Every time I say that publicly though it ruffles a lot of feathers.

In fact, other than a very few older(badass)PPC shooters that still work the job, the majority of "on the job" wheelgun users that I have had the opportunity to observe (generally jailers/reservists and such) are notoriously poor shooters.

Their reloading skills are a joke too. THERE IS ONLY ONE JERRY MICULEK. The vastly overwhelming majority of LEOs and non LE citizens can reload a semi auto much faster than a wheelgun. I have been a firearms instructor for 15 years and have seen some flat out scary people with both semi autos and revolvers.

THE POINT OF A HIGH CAPACITY SEMI AUTO IS NOT ABOUT SHOOTING MORE, IT IS ABOUT MANIPULATING LESS. Pause,re read and reflect upon that.

Quite often engagements happen in compressed time frames with multiple targets. This holds true regardless of your location in the world. It is no different in an alley in a suburb of Amman Jordan or the parking lot of the local mall.

Manipulating less due to multiple targets, manipulating less due to an injury, manipulating less due to having a hold of someone else you are responsible for or feel compelled to protect, such as a loved one or principal. The less you have to manipulate gear, the more you can focus on the situation at hand.

I like to see revolvers in law enforcement. My #1 recommendation for a backup gun for new troops, when they ask has been a toss up between a baby Glock and a J frame, with the user determining what he shoots best.

It has been my personal experience in carrying both that the J frame ( I use a 442) is easier to carry, but I shoot substantially better with a baby Glock, as do most people.

Putting CT laser grips on a Jframe enhances my low light shooting ability substantially. The difference was significant.


In short, I use both semi autos and revolvers and will continue to do so. Pick the right tool for the right application.

I will revive that thread. It was in the handguns section.

I always answered that question this way:

If some summbich is big enough and nasty enough to get to me with five 44 Specials in his chest, I want the gun he rips out of my hand to be EMPTY!

That semi-fallacious answer aside, I do understand the concept of less manipulation and the facts of multiple adversaries. But I'm just not a pistol guy.

Good post!

I was refering to myself. You have never seen me shoot a semi auto.

ddj

Oh by the way trouthunter, that was a reply from a while ago (2009) and while I disagree about the accuracy statement part of your post, I do not mean my post to come across as a personal jab. It is not Amigo!

Was looking to pick up a Ruger SR9 or SW SD9. Maybe not needed so much from what you guys are saying. But if it was, which one is the better gun?

Having just finished a Self defense class,here's my take on it... after shooting a revolver in the first stage,I reverted back to my Glock and a stack of mags...
Reason...I was slow to reload when I was preforming a "Combat" reload,behind cover for the tactical reload,not a problem..
However, the real eye opener was the fact we were being trained for mulitple targets such as a "home invasion" or "car jacking" which has become very common in the city,due to the two large "gangs" thay now inhabit the steets here.With the wheel gun,
"I" was outguned and not comfortable as armed.I now carry a G23,my wife G19 and yes I got plenty of more guns at home,but these are with us ALL the time.....

No hard feelings at all friend. I was just stating that my post was personal perspective of my shooting and not a blanket statement about the percieved inaccuracy of semi-auto's.

ddj

Assuming the same reliablity (and "my" ability) in each I'll take the high cap auto every time. That said, I'm most often carrying a J-frame because it is significantly easier to conceal and carry...and around the farm I've been carrying an 8 shot N-frame for the rat/snake shot load...so I probably carry a wheelgun 10 to 1 vs how often I carry a semi-auto...even though I think the semi-auto has a tactical advantage.

I have found that my reloads with a 6 shot moon clipped N-frame are pretty quick, no J.Mic., but moon clipped 40sw/10mm's are quick to empty and quick to load. Speed loaders, especially 8 shot .357's are extremely slow by comparison.

I'll not cull auto or wheel as long as I'm familiar with it, accurate with it, can conceal it, and it is reliable. I like the premise of manipulating less....which goes hand-in-hand with quickly making wise and tactical choices rather than just throwing lead

What most are saying, I think,is that if one has to reload after five shots, one has already blown the opportunity to defend oneself.

I think Clint Smith's comment that anyone who gets in a gun fight always wishes they had a bigger gun and more ammunition is worth considering. There are lots of light compact semi-autos out there that are easier to shoot and hold more ammo than revolvers of roughly comparable size. And as has been noted, they are vastly easier to reload. And 9mm has more power that .38 Special. So on the pure logic side the argument is strong for a semi-auto.

On the other hand, revolvers are very simple and reliable. You can stick a J frame in your pocket and be very confident that it will work (although if you make a habit of pocket carry a pocket holster would be best). I like my S&W 442 airweight a lot.

In the end it's a personal choice. You just need to be able to shoot your carry gun well. I think it makes a lot of sense to have both and then use what fits the situation best at any given time.

It's the gun you have with you that counts. I can do whatever needs to be done with either.

I choose comfort, the one that is most comfortable to carry.
That said, It most likely will not be left behind and I will have it on my person.

Lot's of people buy police size handguns and tire of carrying them.

I never understood the concept that on duty cops go out with a full batman belt of gear, shotguns, patrol rifle and the recources of additional manpower but then will go off duty with the attitude that a mouse gun is fine. (nomex suit on and yes I wore the blue for along time before an injury retirement and had my fair share of fun)

My attitude (and Im blatently copying an instuctor who's name I cannot remember) is that off duty I will probably be alone or accompanied by family which will be more of a liability than an asset. My choice of tactics (retreat) will be severely compromised by my twin 4 year olds and a 7 year old who is like my shadow. I will more than likely be operating a firearm with one hand while the other hand is herding kids or physically trying to keep some distance from the threat. With all this in mind my feelings were that I shot my full size guns far better than the SW 442 I carried for backup. I used a SW5906 until we parted with that and went to a full size USP. Sure there were times I had the 442 in my pocket when nothing else could be concealed but also found that with a little effort it was no big deal to conceal the full size pistol.

A couple months ago a transient got a little to aggressive while we were all leaving the grocery store. I threw all three kids in the cart (so much for eggs and bread) and away we went. I have never seen it in training or a match but Im pretty sure pushing a heavy cart with one hand and deploying a pistol would have compromised some skill and the mid to full size auto would be a heck of a lot easier to run under those circumstances than a compact wheel gun.

why does everyone carry just one pistol these days?

if you are an operator, or do the conflict thing for a living, such as LEO work, then yes. That is why they DO use high capacity semi autos and not revolvers.

Most of the social work that the average Joe finds himself involved with though is more prosaic. Armed assault by one or maybe two antagonists can be, and is, handled with revolvers. Heck, I even carry a SA Ruger now and then, and don't feel under gunned.
I like both high cap semis and J frame Smith's, and use them both.

I've never been in the military or police, have never been in a fight, gun or otherwise, since I was a kid, so take what I say for what it's worth.

I like both revolvers and semi-autos, but... I can shoot a semi-auto faster and more accurately than I can shoot a revolver of similar power. I can DEFINITELY shoot my carry 9mm semi-auto better (faster and more accurately) than I can shoot my .38 Special snubbie. It has more shots, reloads faster, and it is nearly as easy to conceal. The only advantage the snubbie has FOR ME is for pocket carry - and BTW I prefer my 6 shot Colt DS to the Smiths because it's easier to shoot. IF you can shoot a revolver better than a semi-auto then that's what you should carry, and vice-versa. At least that's what I'm thinking.

It's relatively easy to hit a standing target 5 for 5 at the range, but your adrenaline isn't pumping making your hands shake, and the target is at a set distance and isn't moving and ducking and taking cover. It doesn't take much imagination to see that both of these factors can make it a lot harder to hit one bad guy, let alone several. AFAIK, nobody PLANS on missing a lot, but stuff happens. When the s**t hits the fan you need every advantage you can get. More is better, as long as you don't get so weighted down that you fall face down in a puddle and drown. :-) Just my opinion, feel free to disagree.

If 15 shots turns you into a spray a pray shooter but 5 makes you shoot more accurately then the logical conclusion would be to carry a single shot pistol and you'd be a real Deadeye Dick, right? Nah, I didn't think so.

As for 5 shots being enough, consider the case of Lester Gillis. Lester who? He is the man who killed more FBI agents in the line of duty than any other criminal. You may have heard of his "nickname" - Baby Face Nelson. In the opening moments of his last gun fight with two FBI agents, he was shot at least 6 times with a Thompson submachine gun in the chest and stomach from a distance of about 50 yards (according to the book "Public Enemies"). After he was hit, he shot one FBI agent twice, fatally wounding him. Then,after further being hit in the legs with a shotgun blast by the other agent, he staggered forward towards that agent, and shot and killed him. He then limped to the FBI car, a total distance of 50 yards from where he started, drove it backwards to his own car, and his accomplice then pushed Nelson across the seat, got into the driver's seat, and they drove off. He died later that evening, but the point is, he killed two armed agents AFTER he was shot at least 6 times - with a 45 Auto! And he was not a big guy either, 5' 4" and 133 lbs according to the FBI website.

My question is: how do you know the bad guy you run into isn't another Baby Face Nelson?

Take this for what it is worth. I have had probably a half-million rounds fired at me, everything from a crossbow to a surface-to-air missile. Literally.

I am not an expert at gunfights, but I have been in gunfights. If I am ever in another one, I will put two heavy slugs into the bad guy's second shirt button, and then I will scan for another bad guy. If there is one, he will also get two heavy slugs in HIS second shirt button. That will leave one heavy slug for a third bad guy - if there is one.

If there is a FOURTH bad guy, I will die. But he will be one scared sonofabitch.

If you can�t hit your target with 5 rounds, 15 will just cause more damage to the surroundings. A police officer must engage a threat, as civilian can choose his time and how he will (or will not engage a threat.

I, and more importantly my wife, am perfectly confident in the our old Security Six snubbie loaded with 129 gr Federal +P 38 Specials. The 20" pump 12 bore is there as well.

I really thought a lot about this thread.I am not sure anyone is wrong no I am sure no one is wrong.

I would like to carry a FS92 without question but its too big too heavy. If I am home I would grab that first but out and about, I am much more likely to carry a S&W Airweight with low recoil PP loads

Hank

Unless the threat chooses to engage....

George

I have one of each....

And, I'd take either.

....or both.

That's among, if not, the dumbest damned thing I've ever seen posted by anyone.

Considering it's from you, it ought not surprise me, but it does.

Yeah... you can choose when to get jumped, mugged, car-jacked, robbed, have your house broken into....

And then we resort to the old song lyrics.." if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you are with..."

Have before; will again.

1911 and 642....works in my world.

George

Hard to find a world that combo don't work in, but folks keep trying.

I spray and pray thru several 19 round magazines during my shooting sessions...not many misses..Why would I be more accurate with a wheel gun..?

But overall we have to remember its the indian, not the arrow. Sure I have my preferences in firearms, ammo, caliber etc but the most important gear I carried was a belief that failure is not an option. That belief and the drive to be proficient regardless of my hardware will be far more important than 9mm vs .45 or anything else we feel like arguing.

I carried a 2.25" SP101 back when I first got a CCW license in Virginia back in 1995.

One day a friend with a Glock 19 was shooting with me. I was doing a little side-by-side comparison regarding size, weight, capacity. I was amazed how much performance is packed into the size/weight of the Glock 19.

Not long after, I unloaded the SP101, in favor of a Glock 17.

That said, The small and light five-shooters do fill a niche of their own.

There is a huge difference between an SP101, and an Airweight Bodyguard, or the lighter scandium models. The SP101 is a heavy/chunky little sucker, not a practical pocket gun in my opinion.

5? SP101 works for me, though a Ruger can get 'sticky' double action if you don't fully release the trigger forward. I do like them. Below is what I trust my life on. Holds 6, if that won't do, I'd want a Glock 20 SF in 10mm, plenty ammo and power, light, accurate, reliable.

You can get a smaller lighter S&W i.e. model 60 but w/Mag loads, recoil/muzzle jump rises, shot recovery time may suffer.

I can sleep easy w/6 below. Ammo i.e. Fed 125s offer up to 96% one shot stops.....the 145s however can double if you need to say punch a car door, etc.....still gives 85%.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum

Stats on other rounds are not bad, but my personal confidence is in 357, 10mm, and a 41 w/Silvertips if size/weight were not an issue though I'd not put it before the other 2 for gun bulk and recoil.

http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm

65BR nice M65 RB3" been looking a while for one of those.. I have a 3" M13 in nickel though. I carry a M60 DAO in a IWB or in the pocket. Haven't seen a 15 shot 9 the same size or I would have it. both my CZ 75 and 40B are considerably larger to pack concealed. A buddy selected a Sig 238 for his CCW, nice gun shoots well and is very concealable, but as I see it will a 380 even take care of a pissed off dog? I practice alot,I hit what I shoot at and it don't take me all day to get it done. Not worried about my abilities with the weapon, more worried about being as aware as I should be of potential situations and staying out of them. Not worried about a carjacking scenario punks don't want 16 year old bent up Toyota 4x4's.Everyone has somewhat different needs, choose well, buy 2,wear one out practicing, be ready for the storm. Magnum Man

Hands down, I shoot a semi auto more accurately under rapid fire, than a revolver. Maybe if I shot everyday, that might change, but that's what I go with. I also shoot 1911's more accurately under rapid fire, than any double stack auto I've tried, so I have to make it work with 9 rounds of .45, plus reloads. So I guess call it a compromise.

When I was living in Central California, home invasions seemed to be fairly fashionable; two or three guys would smash their way in and take what they wanted. Oddly, such events are rather uncommon in Texas

Rocky,

Those are one heck of a lot of assumptions.

No one that I know gets issued a crystal ball to know what the next fight will look like and you don't get to choose.

I really doubt the bad guys are going to be waiting for their turn in line to attack you.

Where you live, you may be on the receiving end of a group of Samoan or Tongan thugs monkey stomping the living crap out of you in a grocery store parking lot so they can get some quick cash for some more meth.

The chances of cooly placing two shots into a shirt button of each and every one of your attackers, while having boots taken to your ribs or being punched in the face are slim to none.

So really, it is looking like I should have a high cap auto for real defense situations, and just use a revolver for packing around the ranch in the summer?

Wow.

It would be interesting to hear more about the gunfights you've been in.

Dakota D: I have been on and over the handgun ferris wheel. I have had more revolvers than semi-autos. From 22 38 357 9m & 44 Mag.

After spending TOO MUCH MONEY, I've seriously trimmed down the handgun inventory. I have a Ruger MkII Target 22, 6 6/78", & S&W 6906 (3rd gen. SS 9mm)

The MkII is scarey accurate, I shoot pretty well but it's capable of outdoing me.

The 6906 is MORE than ACCURATE enough for my purposes. It has 15 round +1up capacity. It's plenty light, short, concealable, & COMFORTING to have.

Both are DEPENDABLE, never had a jam w/good ammo and fill ALL my needs.

ROCKY RAAB, count me IN on your encounters! !

JWALL
___________________

VEGETARIAN............Indian Word For Poor Hunter

Shane;

Rocky was a FAC in 'Nam.

He ain't wrapped real tight....

(grin)

Yep.

Wheelguns rule.

Look, as you know, grunts ain't exactly "sane".

But any damned fool that'd get up in a LITTLE BITTY, SLOW plane, with no damned armor, or guns, or bombs.... and intentionally fly over enemy turf, to find them and piss them off....

That SOB needs his head examined.

I know what you did/were. Now, imagine doing that in a noisy, slow, unarmed, unarmored single-engine airplane.

VA, Rocky's kind was wrapped tight enough back in the day to save my bacon more'n once.

Might be I've been shot a more than him, but not with a SAM. SAMS were what they used on grownups, not kids like me hoovering around in the tree tops. I heard once that less than 1% of ground fire finds its mark. Brought a chopper back one day with 176 inbound holes. They junked it, I got drunk probably, don't remember the details now.

Anyway, what Rocky said. #4 will be pizzin' his shorts when he takes aim at me. Unless he's number 7. Don't have but one revolver but I'm fairly handy with it and I eschew double taps.

Loosely Wrapped Dan

For one attacker or target, a .44 or .45 revolver.

For more than one attacker or target, a .45 auto.

� and a crackin'-good crystal ball to tell me which!

Allow me to set the record straight. I have never been in a handgun fight. That might make a big difference in how I'd react and how well I shot. I have been in some "whites of their eyes" gunfights while holding a rifle or on a machine gun. And I'm still here. If there's a handgun fight in my future - well, I went to two gun schools and learned a lot. I'll rely on that training and my inner steel.

I try to tread the narrow line between blas� and paranoid with my gun choice. I choose to carry a revolver with fewer shots but bigger cartridges as opposed to a pistol with dozen small rounds. I can fully understand the rationale behind a hi-cap pistol, but just don't like them. I'm a revolver guy.

FAC-A....ballz of steel.....grin

Dan, and Montana, it is a curious fact that all combat types think they are fairly safe and those other guys are flipping suicidal nuts. I had ground guys literally whimper in my plane - and even one F-4 driver. When I was on the ground or in a chopper, I was the one whimpering. When the action gets hot, there are many bangs - and whimpers.

We all make our choices.

I had a couple of 357 Magnums (2.25" SP101, and 4" GP100). I moved away from them, in favor of the Glocks. I have a Glock 17, 21, and 22.

Most times the G22 is bedside, and I carry the G17. The G21 spends most of it's life in the gunlocker, but I can't bear to not have a 45ACP.

The only revolver I keep nowadays is the 44 Mag, 4 5/8" Super Blackhawk. Had it since I was sixteen. I recently hit fifty......groan......(grin)

Rocky, I guess when things get sporty, it helps to believe someone has it worse....grin.

I was pretty damn sure they did. At least I had a bar, a hot shower and sheets at night. It was that four hours a day getting hosed that got sporty - and made me rush to that bar every night!

Sorry for the diversion, guys. It was 40 years ago exactly, and it tends to pop into memory a lot.

I always pity'd those poor bastardz who drive the amtracs.

Anyone who goes to war in a dumpster, is immediately at a disadvantage......grin

You need a G20.....

Piss on those things, from a considerable height. I at least want to be able to turn and return fire, and see what's coming.

Oh, and NOT have my guts shook out..... and roast..... and be asphyxiated....

They are horrible.

I'm not at all familiar if this is true or not. But a local cop I know only carries a revolver for his job. Says he's seen a semi auto fail to fire after being caught up in someones clothes in a struggle in which the other officer was knocked to the ground and suspect tried getting his gun.. I dunno?

R R: I'm very glad you're here AND have a memory.

I'm not prejudiced against Revs, it's just the semi autos fill my needs and have 2 or 3 cylinder capacities w/o reloading.

I've killed does (deer) w/Ruger Redhawk 44 Mag. IMPRESSIVE results. I have just gravitated away from deer hunting w/a handgun.

I personally S A L U T E all of our men who serve and have served in the military. I've had the opportunity more than once to tell CROWDS that America owes every soldier who served in Nam a GREAT BIG APOLOGY for the way some were treated when they returned stateside.

Keep up the good work guys! !

JWALL
_______________

VEGETARIAN.........Indian Word For Poor Hunter

only for military/paramilitary/police work where one may intentionally chose to confront...

in civilian life, all efforts to evade confrontation have passed at the point where one might need a concealed weapon... the tactics of a civilian confronting a criminal element are typically simpler than those used by military/ paramilitary operators...

it's not that extra magazine capacity isn't desirable, in a confrontation...
it's that the everyday fractional odds of confrontation, multiplied by the fractional odds of a civilian encountering a complex tactical situation multiplies out to some pretty thin justification for advanced personal weapons...

most here at the "fire" are gun enthusiasts... the quickest way to cure that type of enthusiasm is to overcompensate it...
i've known a few who were eager to carry a weapon in their everyday lives... swear them in as a police officer, and require them to carry and, within a few months, most can find a rationale for leaving their off duty weapon locked in the vehicle, at least situationally...

Well Folks,
I'm a big wheel gun guy from way back. I just plain shoot them better than any thing else. That said, I have a serious question. Am I the only CCW guy on this board that carries 2 loaded revolvers and shoots with both hands? I thought someone else would have said something about this but maybe not. Opinions?

Flower Child

The jailer in my mom's home town, ages ago, was a little fellow with a cherubic face, a tired old .38 revolver, and a stutter.

He awed his "guests."

"I c-c-carry a b-b-big p-p-pistol," he'd intone ominously as he solemnly patted his holster. "Shoots a z-zig-zag r-ramblin' ball. When you z-zig, it z-zigs. When you z-zag, it z-zags. C-c-can't miss!"

Never heard of an auto that'd shoot like that!

JWall, President Reagan thanked us and that was good enough for me. Ford and Carter had about 6 years to do so and did not. Ford might have tripped on something and hit his head and Jimma is still lookin' for his balls I guess. Cased closed on that saga as far as I'm concerned.

Gotta say one last thing about this discussion. It really doesn't matter a lot what you use, it's the shooter that matters. If you're still upright and self propelled after a gun fight you done good. Doesn't matter if it's machine guns at 100 meters or Colts at 7 paces.

My Judge is very comfortable and comforting.

Six of one, half dozen of the other. The real question is: Can you hit what you're aiming at under pressure?

I've got a Springfield XDM 45. It fits me well and I have confidence in it, and that makes all the difference to me.

Rocky, I would suggest a small modification to your tactics.
Don't try to shoot each Bad Guy twice in the chest.
What I found is that it is too easy to unload in a shooting. You'll think you will fire once, but you will shoot twice. Try to shoot twice and you'll easily become target fixated and empty your gun into no. 1. That will leave you with an empty gun to deal with the others....
I've talked to others with experience with this. They've had the same thing happen to them.
Hit the first dead center then deal with the others.
You may not stop one or more of them with one hit, but it might slow them down. Far better to deal with a wounded assailant, then one that isn't. Especially if your gun is empty.
That's why I "train" on multiple targets. Trust me, it sucks to have an empty gun and active Bad Guys.
And, yes, I prefer semi autos for self defense. E

If you have to ask whether a 5-shot revolver or a 15 shot pistol, maybe you have your priorities misplaced.

Yep,
Just as I thought. The rest of y'all are a bunch of one gunners and there ain't no two gun revolver cowboys left that shoot with both hands at the same time. I reckon folks like us is just about as extinct as the Dodo bird.

Flower Child

It'll never catch on!

Flower Child: No slam intended, the only time I would feel the need for TWO handguns would be in a situation LIKE Doc Holiday, Val Kilmer, in Tombstone facing more than 1 aggressor OR inebriated where I was seeing double. THEN his response would be very appropriate, "I have 2 guns, 1 for each of ya."

"Whatever blows your skirt up", personally when I have 16 rounds in + 30 waiting to pop up, I don't feel the need for 2 guns. JMO

I found a 30 rd clip from ?Marlin Ranch rifle ? that fits & works in my S&W 6906. So I can "load up and shoot all week"!

JWALL
___________________

VEGETARIAN.........Indian Word For Poor Hunter

For me, I'll take a semiauto over a revolver any day, even if mag capacity is the same. Semiautos are almost always narrower and have predominantly flat sides. For me, this makes them more comfortable to carry, easier to conceal, and I think more snag-resistant (or, at least they have the potential to be)... comparing revolvers and pistols of same bbl length, height, and power level. I can reload a semiauto much faster, and like the pistol, a spare loaded magazine is flat; a speedloader isn't. Since the average semiauto bore centerline is usually closer to the grip than the average revolver, I get faster shot recovery. Finally, I like the grip ergonomics of the average semiauto better than the average revolver. I'm likely to shoot a handgun better when the grip feels better.

Well you should have seen the look bad guy's face, when I thumbed back the hammer of the J-frame I had jammed into his ear! When he tried to grab my main pistol.

i find these threads kind of interesting in that i have and carry at various times all kinds of firearms. They are nothing more than a hammer, and different hammers are made for different kinds of nails.
having said that, as the situation allows i would prefer to have a belt fed weapon in some situations in the arizona desert that are possible. My neighbor in town quite a few years ago met three guys kicking in his front door who started shooting at him.
he had a five shot revolver and was down to one bullet when they ran. He was lucky. Many years ago while a deputy another guy and I faced down about ten or so armed very drunk bikers. We had S&W model 19's at the time. I like wheel guns, and feel perfectly at home with them, and i can reload fairly fast too.
having said that i like a baby glock with it's standard mag and a 14 round mag with extenders as a spare mag. And i routinely run in the desert these days with a glock 20 and three spare mags and a rifle. The situation dictates what is carried

Just saw this thread, and thought I'd pitch in my 2 cents. My situation is not typical, whatever that is. I am fairly new to handguns, and am interested mostly in self defense. The main personal factors I considered:

Would have to be usable for my wife and me, recognizing some limitations on likely amounts of training and practice.

Our hands are about the same size, mine being somewhat small.

I am left handed, my wife right.

We are both at an age where our near vision precludes accurate use of iron sights w/o dedicated glasses, and can't put on glasses when grabbing a gun from the night stand, etc. However we can see distances reasonably well with or w/o glasses.

After a couple of false starts, we settled on a Glock 19 with tritium sights, big dot in front, and a J frame snubby and Model 10 both with CT grips. The Glock also has an extended slide release and mag release. My wife shoots the Glock well, but isn't all that comfortable with the controls. We both really like the Model 10, and just got the CTs on it, and they really feel good. For all of these reasons, the Glock and Model 10 will be our main home defense guns, with the Glock and snubby being my carry guns.

Not perfect, and not necessarily someone else's choices, but work well for us.

Paul

When hunting, if you have to have to revert to a handgun (if you're a rifle guy like me) it's very hard to beat a Glock 20 with the 6" barrel & slide, loaded with full-power 200 grainers at 1200 fps (probably faster with the 6" barrel). It's easy to shoot, and it's damned hard to pack as much KE in one magazine as is in the Glock 20 15-round magazine.

JWall,
No offense taken. I was just trying to find out if there were any other two gun shooters. It seems to be a forgotten and untaught skill since the advent of hi-capacity magazines. Just say'n.

Flower Child

I thought those were double action That's how that would have played out for me.....must have been a close call.

Flower Child: I'm very glad you took no offence. I had to go back & re-read my post to see why you MIGHT have thot it. I had no idea of being critical.

I think shooting a gun in each hand at the same time is a KOOL idea. Seriously IF I had thot about it during my handgun heydays, I probably would have tried it.

OTOH, seriously, I have 2 friends that really can't scratch their butts w/their left hands. So there are some people that are so dominant hand oriented that it would be impossible for them to even try.

JWALL
________________

VEGETARIAN..........Indian Word For Poor Hunter

Does anybody have any statistics for civilian gunfights (where guns are used for defense, not LEO/military applications )? How many shots are typically fired, how many people involved etc. I'm not an expert in this stuff but it's always seemed unlikely to me that in a actual gunfight you'd need to keep firing at multiple assailants while they attacked. I would think that when a gun is pulled and certainly after shots are fired, people would be scattering like cockroaches. Most thieves, etc want to take on easy targets, not those that are firing at them.

The distance is less than 10', the duration is around 3 to 4 seconds, and between 2 and 3 rounds are fired.

Which proves a lot of points.

You had better pray to God you get into an "average" fight with "average" bad guys.

For example:

Hundreds of times I have read in type about how the noise a pump shotgun makes when you rack it, chambering a shell, will scare any bad guy away and he will run for his life.

That is supposed to be almost Gospel, according to what you read.

In reality, I have pointed shotguns and various other tools from the tool bag at bad dudes and many times they did not give a flying "F". They were hell bent on their goals and the only way to take them down without killing them was to go hands on, usually resulting in everyone getting bloody.

You may very likely meet the not so average meth head speed freak who soaks up a schit load of .38 rounds and does not even know he is hurt. He may not know he is supposed to fall over and stop his aggression after an average of 3 shots.

Since his pain receptors are completely fried from the methamphetamine, there is also a good chance that until he evenually loses enough fluid to cause his system to begin to go into arrest,he is likely to continue on his warpath since he does not respond to pain in the traditional sense.

I would not rely on average.

Good point. Average usually means a midpoint, with half of the cases above and half below. By itself it doesn't mean a whole lot.

Paul

Well said....

One of my good buddies is a former SF operator and retired SWAT from Denver. In teaching LEO tactics he argues that loss of hydraulics fluid is the best approach and this means putting enough lead into the bad guy that their system can't work regardless of their neurology (as Mackay alluded to).

Two shots per bad guy for the average joe means most people can't defend themselves with pistols well enough to be effective. He argues for semi-auto's for no other reason than statistically people need more ammo to do what a pro could do with a revolver.

And he reminds me that very few pros carry revolvers as their primary weapon.

Oh, mathman where art thou?

Regardless, I get what your saying.

This debate has raged for a loooonnnnng time - My reasoning is as follows. If all I have to fight with is a handgun I am going to be running to get a REAL gun. Having 12 - or more rounds of smaller caliber ammunition to keep their heads down while I get to a safer place where I have a real gun is a good plan. The other problemn is that there may be three or more assailants. I will need more than the five rounds in my Smith .44 special to settle the debate in my favor, even if it is smaller caliber. And finally; carrying two 1911s is just too much weight.

Terry

That's not quite I meant. Twice I've observed a gunfight from a distance and once was very nearly involved in one. In all three cases it revolved around arguments. When the argument escalated to the point where people started to go for their guns, people started seperating themselves very quickly. By the time the guns were out, even the guys with guns were trying to get away from each other, haphazardly firing a couple rounds at each other while trying to get away. That's all I was trying to say. Not the old "racking the shotgun" routine to scare the bad guys.

Assuming you shoot your chosen sidearm well to begin with, and regardless of how many rounds is actually required to neutralize a threat, when is having more rounds in reserve ever a disadvantage? Having more shots available between reloads and shooting well are not mutually exclusive things.

The "average" person will never get struck by lightning, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to build a barbed wire fence around an orchard during a thunderstorm.

A question was asked and I answered it. Not many people have 2.6 kids, but at one time that was the average.

I can't think of a good tactical reason to carry a 5-shot revolver if you can carry more for the same weight and in a flatter package. If you can't shoot an auto, maybe so, or if you shoot so seldom you are confused by the process or if your hand is too weak to pull back the slide, then a revolver is the answer.

Modern autos of good quality are way more reliable than modern revolvers. Revolvers have a lot more exposed vital surface areas, for one thing.

I think many folks carry revolvers for style. It's a valid style choice, but it IS a style choice. No other reason makes a lot of sense.

The weight and concealability are the big +'s on the J-frame.

In today's world with the poor economy, gangs, potential for civil unrest, I feel a whole lot better with plenty of ammo onboard.

Life for most of us is generally safe, secure, and predictable.....right up to the moment that it isn't.

Glock. Kahr for deep carry.

I sold off my revolvers and now just have a couple Kahr's and a couple Glocks. Plastic pistols RULE!

That used to be called a "Detroit reload" Russ

Agree to a point and carry a 6 shot revolver instead. Someday I might get one of those 8 shot revolvers. Style has nothing to do with it. Other than the issue model 1911 Colt I've not experienced reliability in autos that matches up with revolvers, quite the contrary. OTOH, if you are diligent in pointing a stovepiped auto at someone at eye level they can't see your problem. Don't ask me how I know that. It was a few years back, maybe modern autos are better, or more specifically, maybe their magazines are better.

Not once have I experienced a jam with a revolver. A FTF in a revolver does not require two hands to clear. My facts are my facts, don't confuse me with yours.

If you shoot in many revolver competitions, you will see reliability issues with revolvers. The most common I've seen is when ejecting empties. The rim of one of the empties will slip behind the extractor star and require some tool (knife or screwdriver blade) to remove that empty. Until then the revolver is out of commission.

A buddy had a Ruger 44 mag fail on him recently; I forget why.

Glocks are pretty damn reliable bullet hoses... lol... but I'm no pistolero, just a hobbyist so I'll defer to the rest of y'all on this one.

Yes, Glocks are pretty reliable as long as you stick to jacketed bullets.

Make mine a Kahr, 9mm or 45 accurate, reliable, ....want to buy or trade for a J frame 38 Special stainless with custom trigger job?

Spot on.......

Yes indeed.

Always...

Mack, you took me to the woodshed without mentioning context. Uncool.

He made an intelligent post, but I don't see how he singled you out in any way. If your view differs from his, then maybe you're feeling convicted about something, but what he posted stands at face value IMO.

I'm really late getting involved in this thread, but that's like saying if you need a first aid kit you shouldn't have been playing football.

You're out there, it's now, there's a gunfight. since you didn't start it, you don't know how many people responded to the invite on the other side.

I never ever saw a Soldier or Marine with a revolver in Iraq.

Some one will say, "Clint Smith carries a revolver!" yes, but if you know Clint, he carries two back ups for a total of over 15 rounds.

I've been known to carry a five-shot revolver when I'm relatively close to the car. I always carry a Glock 32 with 13 round mags, and an extra 15 rounder, when off the pavement.

As a firearms instructor, I saw MANY failures in revolvers. Especially revolvers not fired much. A lot more than with autos.

A Kahr weighs the same as a 642, and is flatter. And holds two more rounds.

I'm not fond of those double stack pistols for concealment, which is the only way I carry a handgun. The short ones like the G 27 carry most of their weight in the grip and hang lopsided with a belt holster, and are too big for a pocket carry.

I carried a M 38 in my pocket for years, and a 642 for more years. They're really hard to shoot accurately, however. Which is why I went to a Kahr. It's very accurate, safe, and simple.

Oh crap! I did? I did not mean to Pard!

I can't recall ever hearing someone lament having extra ammo on them after surviving a gun fight....

You talking about them double actions are ya? Well, like they say, 'different strokes for different folks.' I don't do competitions of the organized variety.

Are we talking handguns for day to day self-defence against people, are we talking handguns as some form of back-up in brown bear/grizzly country, or are we talking some combination?

I look at it like rifles by applying an adequate chambering/cartridge/bullet to the task at hand.

I'd probably have a preference for a 44/45 if using a handgun around big bears which would tend to exclude semi-autos. In addition, when working around the farm I like to stick a small 5-shot 357mag revolver in my pants pocket. I carry it around like it was a pocket knive. Flip side, I have a preference for a Sig secured in a holster for other situations.

You could also break it down to the types of semi-autos. Probably more Glocks are used in LEO capacity world wide because they are cheap and they keep running. If you like the ergonomics of how they point, they are good. If you are one who spent decades using and training professionally with a Sig, you may find the ergonomics of how a Glock points to be askew. Just like boots and backpacks, what works well for one may be an abysmal failure for another. Even with a lightweight short barrel 5-shot revolver, some shoot below par with a magnum chambering due to the sight radius and enhanced recoil. One shot or fifty, it does not matter as they cannot hit a barn door.

Just like with a rifle; weight, sight radius, chambering, ergonomics, end use, as well as user skill level play a roll in one's choice. What may be ideal to carry in combat may not be the ideal choice to carry while camping next to a salmon stream amongst big bears. What may be ideal to carry while walking the beach in shorts and a light shirt may not be the ideal choice to carry in the big city during a time of mass unrest. There are times that I find a small 5-shot revolver ideal, and there are times I find a semi-auto ideal. I like them both.

Best

A buddy of mine who works in a ER that gets lots of gunshot victims told me they patch-up people shot with 38s, 9s, and 22s and send them out the door within a day often times. 45s not so much and with 44mags the only thing left is the dieing. lol He also said he never seen one make it from a rifle wound. I still say though the best weapon to carry is one that you will carry. My 1911 45 is on the nightstand... but my 380 auto is with me everywhere.

Well, since I started the thread, what I had in mind was generally, all that you mentioned excluding big bears. More like social problems, home invasions, car jackings, shooting skunks on the ranch, coyotes while pheasant hunting, mountain lions while bowhunting.

I want to "standardize" the arsenal so to speak, as there are currently too many different people, chamberings, and platforms in the house to make anybody but me know what is going on. I figure that in any of the above scenarios, all of which involve adrenalin, picking and choosing through a number of weapons and making sure one had picked out the right ammo is not a wise idea.

Currently, everybody in the house understands 38/357 revolvers, but I'm under the impression that they are not necessarily the best weapon for actual carry and use. I would prefer a 45 myself, but wonder what I am giving up in number of rounds in the magazine. Maybe 9mm would be a better standard chambering and manual of arms for everyone here?

I once had a man "high" on something lurking around the house so I called the police and opened the safe going for a firearm. Was completely stopped while deciding which pistol/revolver to use. By the time I decided and found ammunition the world could have ended.
Sometimes to many choices isn't a good thing!

Dakota Deer, not knowing how many people or their ages (none of our business) you have to decide or hypostatize the best compromise. ONE leaves no opportunity for confusion.

What I would choose for my household is very likely different than what your hosehold would be happy with.

A 357 is too much for my wife. I don't choose 38 sp. I prefer 9mm but 45 auto is tamer IMO, yet deadly.

Good Luck in your pursuit.

JWALL
__________________

VEGETARIAN..........Indian Word For Poor Hunter

Nothing wrong with today's 9mm loads, and a Gen 3 Glock 17 or 19 would be just the ticket IMO. Being a .45acp fan myself, I can't very well discourage you from wanting one. For a .45acp platform your whole family could learn to shoot, and one that you could also shoot lead reloads in, I'd suggest consider the M&P45------either the mid or full-size.

I do have to admit, I was thinking about this thread last night, as I cleaned & stowed the .45 in its spot, then added another magazine next to it, so there's 17 rounds handy. I reckon a flashlight should go there, too.

The Browning Hi-Power will go out soon for some mild customization, so there's an opportunity to increase round count, and the BHP can certainly use +P or +P+ 9mm.

I also hear Sig has single action autos now, including one 9mm standard with a 19 rounder. I still prefer 1911's, but at least there are other semi autos out there with the same mode of operation. I don't plan on being that dude in the other thread who carries four different pistols - two 1911's, a Glock, and a revo - and has to stop in an emergency and try to remember how to use the gun in hand!

I lived and hunted in Alaska for six years, and had an encounter or two with big bears.

Even so, in my 52 years, the bad people encounters out number the bad encounters with bears maybe 200 to one. And, the bears were not armed, so distance was sufficient to keep the fight from happening.

I'm a big believer in the Clint Smith-ism that every fight is a rifle fight. Some people bring fists, some knives, some sticks or stones, some bring handguns. But the man who brings a rifle can stand off and prosecute the fight from out of range of the other devices.

I at least bring a knife and a handgun to most fights, because that's who I am. I like to bring enough ammo to win decisively in a likely encounter (three of them, one of me). that's why I like Glocks and the 357 sig. Easy to control, hits hard, feeds slick as snot.

If I really thought there was going to be a gunfight, I'd probably be elsewhere, way out of handgun range, way out of rifle range, calling in air power.

'cause that's a fair fight in the Walter world.

Glock 29 10mm with 10+1 of Doubletap 135gr

Taurus Total Titanium .38 (J-Frame) with Alternating 110gr DPX and FBI Load.

I carry both, depending on clothes. I feel better with the Glock when going into "Higher Probability" situations (like the Ghetto).

So, ummm.....

Is the 1911A1, .45ACP ever a wrong answer?

Oh, wait... sorry, rhetorical question.

Damn. Words fail me.

From Gunsite Gossip:
"And what, pray, does one need all those rounds for? How many lethal antagonists do you think you are going to be able to handle? Once when Bruce Nelson was asked by a suspect if the thirteen-round magazine in the P35 was not a big advantage, Bruce's answer was, "Well, yes, if you plan to miss a lot." The highest score I know of at this time achieved by one man against a group of armed adversaries was recorded in (of all places) the Ivory Coast! There, some years ago, a graduate student of mine laid out five goblins, with four dead and one totaled for the hospital. Of course there is the episode of Alvin York and his eight, but there is some dispute about that tale. (If you read it over very carefully you will see what I mean.) Be that as it may, I see no real need for a double column magazine. It is all the rage, of course, and like dual air bags, it is a popular current sales gimmick."

So the Col. didn't carry an extra magazine?

Fair fight is a childish notion anyway. Win first and if you have nothing better to do, you can decide what was fair later.

Almost never more than one, and then only to "top off" his piece to keep it fully loaded while cleaning up the resultant mess. If you've seen the video that they showed at his memorial service, Bruce Nelson's widow (Sandra Froman) relates an incident where someone wanted to see Cooper's carry gun. He was sitting at a desk--reached in a drawer, took out a 1911 and loaded it--THEN--unholstered his carry 1911, unloaded it and handed it to the individual. Never wanted to be w/o a loaded piece.

BTW, I wasn't stating any opinion---just throwing the word of one well recognized in the mix. I've got nothing against high capacity autoloaders--not using a revolver because you didn't see one in Afganistan seems alittle beyond the pale to my dim witted thinking however.

The longer this thread goes and the more "what ifs" are thrown in the pot, the more it's starting to resemble that episode of "Shooting Gallery" where Bane and someone spent the whole show shooting zombies.

So, how many times did you see the Col with a revolver? Or, on a day to day basis, how many Gunsite instructors are carrying a revolver? That would be zero. Also, ask those folks what they have as a truck gun. They have a lot of glocks in their vehicles. I asked.

The question was asked in a manner that suggests a combat application, that is, fighting other people and fighting to win.

That equals a semi auto. You can win with a revolver, but then you can haul soil in your sports car.

What can be done and what should be done are often different, in my limited experience.

"I never ever saw a Soldier or Marine with a revolver in Iraq."

Since neither the U.S. Army or USMC issue revolvers, any revolver in the hands of a Soldier or Marine in Iraq would have to be a POW, Privately Owned Weapon, and that would be either illegal or against regulations.

JEff

I wonder why the guys who see more combat than anyone else in the world don't issue revolvers?

Are they unenlightened, or are they in the serious business of winning gunfights...

You probably can win a gunfight with a revolver, if you're well trained and they are not well armed.

Relative to the Col's comment about double stack mags, I'll bet it was from long ago (I'll look for it. I have three volumes of "Gunsite Gossip.")

Finally, the average Joe really does not practice that much with his handgun (I have 2,000 rounds fired this year and consider myself a slouch). So, we should be talking about what an average Joe carries, not an expert. Revolvers are for experts.

twice
If one believes the shows that Ed Head is on, then the answer would be daily unless he's ballyhooing for Ruger and being less than honest with the audience.
You seem to equate the gunsite instructors of today with the philosophy, tactics and beliefs of Cooper. I don't doubt that there would be Glocks and probably even a few da-autos, but if you believe what the Col wrote, the Glock wouldn't be the piece of choice. Really doesn't matter to me, I have nothing against Glocks.

...somehow "combat application, that is, fighting other people" doesn't jump out as primal, you obviously saw something that I didn't in that original post.


Maybe my dimwittedness trumps your limited experience, I don't know. The fact that you didn't see revolvers in Afganistan being used as a rationale to decry their use just isn't logical. If the Col was anything--he was logical.
BTW, I'm a fan of semi-autos--but also of logic.
Also, thanks for your service in Afganistan.

Dave, you're trying to fight a battle without being in the field of operations. No one is suggesting equiping our troops for combat with wheel guns. On the same note, do you really want to argue that any piece of equipment is best soley because the government issues it????? That'll be a short debate!!
If you're a believer in the Col's teachings then you can quote almost verbatim his postulate that you fight with your mind and the tool is secondary. I don't doubt that a semi-auto is better for combat, but for slipping in a backpack and shooting a coyote and having for general defense it's probably a moot arguement.
of course he said it a long time ago--he's been dead for almost 5 years

...we agree!! Probably a person that's "average" shouldn't attempt to defend himself with a handgun at all until he's reached a level of expertise--it will be easier to reach with a semi---but that doesn't proscribe revolvers.

Wasn't in Afghanistan, was in Iraq, but thank you for the thank you. It was the best job I've ever had, and I've been in 34 years.

I was at Gunsite for a week two months ago and did not see one revolver. Like I said, if they are carrying them for defense, they're experts, and that's OK. You still have to break open the handgun to reload. I know, I know Jerry Miculek can reload in whatever. But, we should be talking about average Joes.

I'm thinking "for carry, defense" means against people. Armed conflict with other people, one on one or in groups, is the definition of combat. Certainly your trips to Gunsite have reinforced that definition. Otherwise, what would you call that?

Jerry Miculek can reload rapidly because he is upright, using gravity to assist with the reload. In a gunfight, if you are on the ground, trying to use speed loaders, it is different. Some of the officers killed in the onion fields in Cal. were shot while trying to reload their revolvers while crouched behind their cars. Another officer who was in a shoot out while on the floor using a video machine for cover, lost 2 rounds on the floor when using his speedloader. In a stress reload, the auto wins every time.

Helluva lot of difference between combat and self-defense situations.

really? That's what Gunsite and Thunder Ranch call it.

Self defense is a short combat, I think.

Why do you think they're different?

The U.S. military hasn't issued revolvers to front-line fighters since the Colt and S&W 1917s were issued with half-moon clips during WW1 and those revolvers were only issued because there weren't enough Colt 1911s available. Same/same for the Enfield 1917s being issued as an alternative main battle rifle to the 1903 Springfields.

I would agree that very few people ever become proficient handgun shooters because they don't practice enough. From what I see at the local range, few people are good rifle shooters and less than 10% are competent handgun shooters.

JEff

There is a lot of good and informative discussion above and, seemingly, no overall answer applicablle to the masses. Among almost all of us, a "gunfight" as such - extended tactical movements and much firing at very capable opponents - would be an extreme rarity in our lives. For us, a fast-rising threatening situation requiring quick and effective short term response would be much more likely.

Thus, most handguns are carried with such possibilities in mind. As pointed out many times above, the proficiency of the user should be a big factor in the choice of gun. In the forest I carry a big revolver. In populated situations I carry a .45 semi-auto. But, at my direction due to her level of proficency, my wife has a very manageable 5 shot .38 special without exposed hammer. If someone got threateningly close, she sure enough would be able to put them down, and probably for keeps. But, a semi-auto would be too complicated/frustrating for her level of proficiency.

And, with revovers there is no failure to eject/feed when one needs them most - in a fast-rising and brief situation involving a few shots..

BT/DT on the SD situation.

Combat, as what you're detailing with reloads, etc., is one thing. Self-defense is a very close-quarters encounter where one has to take immediately action and use deadly force to counter an immediate, close-proximity threat to life or serious bodily injury.

The reason the average self-defense shooting is inside of 10 feet, and 2-3 shots, is that such is normally all it takes to stave off a mugger, rapist, jilted lover, crackhead, car-jacker, burglar, etc. It's one, maybe two, assailants and one victim, within bad breath range.

For that, the revolvers have, and will continue to, work just fine.

"Combat" is far more the local gang, or home invasion type situation with multiple armed assailants, varying ranges, etc. For that, and that is really what most of those "combat course" deal with; yes, the semi-auto is far superior.

Simplicity of action (and the fear of the more complicated process of SOME autos) is a valid reason for women. And as I said, those with weak hands.

Failure to eject is a 1960s problem with autos.

Sean
Excellent distinction between combat and SD, and the firearms that work in those situations.

Some of the prior posts do not make that distinction, which could keep the debate going on for a long time.

Steve

Haven't read the thread, so please excuse me if these are duplicate thoughts:

The best stats I can find say that if you are attacked and produce a firearm, your attacker will flee 93% of the time (vs. being injured 60% of the time if you offer no resistance). So 93% of the time, it doesn't matter what you have, as long as it looks intimidating. Attackers are looking for easy victims, not a fair fight.

For the other 7% of cases, some days I carry a snubby 41 mag, and other days I carry a compact 380. If a good deal on a 44 Spl came along, I'd probably snag that. It's 45 ACP ballistics in a light weight package.

Self defense is a lot easier than law enforcement. In self defense, you win if you get home with all your body parts intact. An LEO has the task of subduing the bad guy and hauling him off to jail.

denton;

Keep your eyes peeled for a Stratford, Conn., or Bridgeport, Conn., (the latter preferable) Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Special.

What really concerns me about all this is the huge proliferation of small sub compact handguns in larger cartridges and the amount of the sale market they are capturing.
We are seeing 45 ACP,40 S&W and even 9mm to some extent in these 13 ounce handguns that takes an expert to control, yet neophytes are buying them up like hot cakes.Then when they do shoot them they get a big surprise from the recoil and find out they can't hit diddly sqaut with them.I suppose it is ok as most confrontations happen at less than a few yards.

I can't help but think that these people are someday going to encounter a situation and when the do let off a round,the fire ball in dim light and huge uncontrollable recoil is litteraly going to be the death of them.
Makes no differnce if it is a revolver or semi that I can see, 5 shotor 15 shot.

For myslef, considering I am fairly proficent with a handgun and even being a NRA certified instructor,a 5 shot Smith Model 66 revolver in.357 mag, 2" barrel fullfils my needs. My loads would be consider some where between 38+p and mid range .357 with 125 gr hollow points.

I don't subscribe to the idea that some say they need XX when they go to the ghetto or go here or there. Stay out of those places unless your job demands it. There is a big differnce in LEO requiremnts, military requiremnts, and common citizens requirements.

A lot of guys get anal about all this stuff as now they are able to carry when they could not before and get so they think there is bad guy behind very tree. I carry because I don't want to be a vcictum,bu tmy life is not controlled by what I carry.

They are double action but you can still use them single action style.

VA's using the word as a verb--you've morphed it into a noun. You know very well that as a verb, the military demands of combat are SIGNIFICANTLY different than the demands of civilian "combat" (for a lack of better words). In the Fleet Marine Force when I was in an infantry battalion, I was issued a handgun because I was a 2nd Lt. and wasn't expected to be shooting during "combat." Maybe things have changed, but in the Military the sidearm has played a secondary role to the point of having become largely ceremonial since the disbandment of horse cavalry. It has been used quite efficiently in numerous cases and there are all kinds of anecdotal cases of its use, but it's still secondary in the overall scheme of military conflict. They issue handguns to people who should be doing something other than shooting during combat (verb). I suppose that recon units, etc. may find a less defensive role for the handgun, but again, they're the exception.

For the CCW holder/home defender/armed civilian, it plays a primary role to be used reactively in an unexpected circumstance. That's where DVC becomes a factor. DVC is so significant because it is oriented to defensive activity---on the offense only accuracy (D) is of great relevance. A high capacity semi auto may in fact be the panacea for many in that defensive civilian role--but not necessarily for everyone!! Without incorporating the study of "probability" the only recourse is obtuse paranoia like that guy on the concealed carry video on the handgun thread demonstrated.

Regarding Mackay's comment: "...the primary functions of having a higher capacity auto is not to shoot more, but to manipulate less.

Time not spent fiddling with reloading is time spent looking at a threat, looking at your surroundings or coming up with an alternative solution to your problem."

The old pilot's maxim that "the only time you have too much fuel is if you're on fire," seems appropriate. More ammo is always better than less ammo, until you have to hump it. Once your life style convinces you that you "probably" aren't going to need it, you tend to leave it in the car or at home---at least I think that that's human nature. And while not a down side necessarily to increased magazine capacity, the positives may be neutered in some cases by another tendancy with shooters that don't have your level of training. Back in the early 80's Tommy Campbell of S&W was putting on a demo for our local PD. He and I went to lunch and discussed high cap magazines for law enforcement. He brought up the need to train fire control more strictly due to the tendancy in a fire fight for officers to empty the magazine. He related an oft quoted case where the officer was cross examined---Q: "Officer Sagebrush, why did you shoot my client 15 times?" A: "Because that's all the magazine held."

LOL, just meant "I" would have been in DA mode, as in, he would have heard a couple of ticks/clicks as the DA cycled.....and lights out...no way I would have taken a risk in giving him any room for error if somebody was grabbing 'my main gun' as he may have forced you to follow thru, hopefully if that had happened that muzzle would be in his ear had you 'reacted' to him NOT stopping, and continuing to go for your main pistol.

That scenario was you or him, lucky for him, he made the right choice and it worked out.

I know some folks who wish that were true.

65BR, my backup was stuck in his ear.

We were braking up a fight between two 16 or 17 year old kids.
The fight was over a girl.
Thank God he made the right choice, because I would have felt bad about killing him.
That was over 30 years ago.
I see this guy ever so offen and he turned out to be a good man

Ahhhh, yeah, I can understand that, kids. I knew it was your 'back up' in his ear....but not a teen kid in that situation.

Odds are if one NEEDS to defend themselves in my area, its going to be a different type of criminal.......

You made a good choice - that's a good outcome any day.

While looking for another post I came across this and in light of the recent movie theatre shooting I figured it might be a decent one to revive and have some re-assess or reflect upon if their thought processes have changed at all since that time.

night stands and dresser drawers (not to mention gun safes) are full of "concealed carry" handguns that the owner just leaves at home due to size and weight.

get a gun you'll carry every day! 5 shot vs 15 shot is a mute point if your gun is at home and you're somewhere else.

Last week we had a nut ball with a 7.62x54 Draganov kill a constable and one bystander, and wound one bystander. The nutball fired about 60 rounds total before he was KIA. The wounded's boyfriend returned fire with a .38 Special Ruger and ran out of ammo after 6 shots. The cops have his gun as evidence and he bought a 9 mm Glock as a replacement.

This fellow surely did the right thing but I would hope he doesn't go looking for firefights in the future.

I carry one of each; a Glock 19 and a S&W 638 with CT laser grip, plus a reload for each. The Glock is armament and the Smith is insurance.

Brother in law was in the Los Angeles Police Dept for many years. He stated on many occasions that the dept had a lot of trouble getting officers to "learn to shoot" a J frame smith. He stated it was one of the hardest guns to learn to shoot accurately under STRESS.

I carried a 38 Special, Smith model 60 for many years after being robbed several times operating convience stores in S. Ca. Having been a District manager for 7-Eleven stores in that area, I have been to many robberies and murder sites. I was robbed twice by individuals, and swarmed once by teenage gang members, beat unconscious. In the robberies where the individuals robbed me, they came up to me in a normal fashion in body language and verbal tone, then pounced like a leopard drawing their gun changing their demeanor to a predator. In one of the robberies, I was so scared that I forgot that I had the 38 in my waist band, 15 Seconds of sheer terror. The look in that guy's eyes and the size of his 357 with those Hollow points looking at me, told me this guy intended to shoot me at the slightest wrong move. I emptied the cash register into a paper sack, after asking permission to reach for the paper sack. He turned to walk out the door, then I remembered that I had the 38 and had picked out a spot on his ear that I wanted to put the bullet. Thank God that I remembered that in Ca. I would be in a world of crap if I had killed the guy because the threat was over as he had disengaged the threat and was attempting to leave the store. In my mind's eye, I can still see the look on that guys face to this day.

On the second robbery, I went to the back of the store with two large black plastic bags of trash to put in the dumpster. There is a concrete trash enclosure with two large 10' doors covering the entrance of the area that holds the two trash dumpsters. As I open the door on one side, and procede to throw the heavy trash bags into the dumpster, a guy with an old cheap 38 special comes around the corner and sticks the 38 in my the side of my throat as he grabs me by the sleeve. He wants my wallet. As he sees that I am complying with his order to get my wallet, he pulls the 38 back away from my throat, but keeps a strong hold on my I look at the 38, it is a 5 shot, and I see bullets in two cylinders, the other cylinders are empty. I give him my fake wallet with cancelled credit cards in it with $50 in 1's, 5's, and $10's. He shoved me to the ground and ran off. My 38 fell out of my waiste band. In Ca., I was carrying the pistol illegally, I could legally carry it in the store, but when I stepped outside on the side walk, I was in public domain. If I had killed that guy, I would have been in a hell of a mess once again.

On the third robbery I was not carrying a pistol. I got called to the store, 3rd shift employee had been locked up and wanted me to go get him out of jail....forget that! I was so pissed that I did not put my 38 in my waist band. A guy that looked to be 19 came in and wanted beer, he acted jacked up and highly agitated when I told him that I wanted to see his ID. He stormed out of the store and came back with 3 buddies, all of which were in the 19-20 year old range. The counter in this 7-Eleven was designed to be in the center of the store. One of the perps jumped across the front of the counter, one jumped across the back of the counter, and one jumped across the front of the counter. I punched the first guy in the throat as hard as I could, then the other two were literally on top of me. One of them grabbed an old cookie jar and beat me sensless with me as his friend was apparently having trouble breathing from the jab to the throat. They got their beer, could not get the register open, in general just trashed the area all in about 90 seconds. I spent 10 days in the hospital, 3 days in a comma.

The worst robbery in my store was with a graveyard cleak that was a football and wrestling coach at a local high school. I told him that if he got in a fight that I would fire him and just let the bad guys have anything they wanted, dolly was in the back room if they wanted to take the safe with them. Coach's wife was having a baby and they needed the extra cash.

A kid about 16 comes in and wants beer after hours. Coach tells him that he can not sell it to him, after hours. Kid comes back with 4 of his friends and without saying a word, starts shooting coach with a 9mm. Coach drags himself to the back room and locks the door while getting shot through the door again. Kids shoot the lock off the door(hollow core door) and shoot coach multiple times as he lies on the floor. Kid's 9mm was loaded with 115g FMJ or coach probably would have never made it to the back room. In my mind's eye, I can still see a partial tooth of Coach's sticking out of the drywall.

Recently, my wife's boss stopped in at a very large gas station to get gas. 4 teen age kids attacked him with pipes and large wrenches. His eye socket was caved in, skull fracture, jaw broken, broken ribs...in hospital for 2 weeks, and may have TMJ for the rest of his life. I asked him how the assault started, and he said that the youngest kid told him that he had dropped a $5 bill and was returning it to him, he did not drop it of course. He said the kids looked in age from 14-16 years old. I asked him if he wanted to attend my brother's Concealed Weapons Class for free. He said, No that his wife would approve guns being in the house...can't fix stupid.

As I stated earlier, I had to go to the scene of many shooting and robberies and take reports as District Manager. The cops that read this could write a 100 pages each of what they have seen and personally experienced. They offer their advise without many realizing how they came to their conclusions.

As Mackay Sagebrush stated, " Manipulating less due to multiple targets, manipulating less due to an injury, manipulating less due to having a hold of someone else you are responsible for or feel compelled to protect, such as a loved one or principal. The less you have to manipulate gear, the more you can focus on the situation at hand".

This is really great advise for someone that has been through my experience, since a person should be able to defend themselves and perhaps others from multiple perps.

7-Eleven's security dept did some exhaustive research on felons in prison that had committed armed robbery. They found that on an average, that if a guy had a gun during the robbery, that that single individual would feel comfortable holding 5 people at bay.

At 19, I moved to S. Ca. and commenced a shooting war on jackrabbits with about every rifle, pistol, shot gun, and muzzle loader that I owned and could afford to buy. I got to be a hell of a shot on running jackrabbits. I would carry two skeet pouches full of 357's and a shooting vest with a bird carried in the back to carry the empties. I got to be more than a fair shot with a 357 with 125g HP and a 44 Mag with 180g HP.

Some years later after I had sold the 7-11 store, I started shooting IDPA and was really shocked at how bad a shot I was and how lousy a lot of pistols are under just a little duress of being times and having to engage multiple perp cardboard targets. It was really hard for me to wrap my head around just how bad I was shooting IDPA. After all, I had killed 8 coyotes with a 357, and untold thousands of jackrabbits. When I started shooting IDPA, center hits under duress became an issue as I was baffled by how bad I was. It soon became apparent that the relationship of grip fit, poundage of the trigger, Re-set on the trigger, Accuracy, ease of reloading, not to mention sights were things that I had never even considered.

My brother puts on a IDPA match first Sat of every month. He and I shoot on a squad that takes all first timers. Often we see a guy show up that has shot pistols all his life(just like me). This guy brings out his custom this or that, acts the big shot around all of us shooting lesser guns. Then he proceeds to show all of us that he is really incapable of hitting a bear in the azz with just a little stress on him, he also has multiple issues changing magazines, shooting good guy targets, and in general just spraying and praying in the general area of a threat. We encourage everyone because we all had issues to deal with when we first started, magazine issues, gun issues, ammunition issues, and reinforce the fact that having reliable equipment and being able to use it under duress is not as easy as it is on TV!

From the first hand account of my own assults and robberies I hope that those reading will realize that real life assaults are extremely quick and violent and usually without you having the slighetest inkling of you being in any kind of emminent danger. Multiple perps add to the danger along with you may having to respond with a pistol while you are wounded seriously. For this reason, I prefer a semi auto with NO SAFETY and/or no hammer to cock...I can not stress this enough. If you feel the need to carry a pistol for self protection, then carry a reload. When you are scared to death, you can squeeze off a lot of shots in a hurry.

Also, not knowing the laws in your State and City can ruin your life for years to come in civil suits, and may land you in jail.

If you love to shoot your pistol, I would encourage everyone to attend IDPA matches(International Defense Pistol Association) in your area. You actually compete against your own time from match to match, you will be with some great people, and get to shoot your favorite pistol and ammo. Shooting scenarios are set up at the IDPA matches that are taken from real life circumstances.

Hey, Mack. I've deferred answering that question (which I'm sure you know has surfaced on the 24HCF several times in several forums...) because I was still thinking about it.

The question of whether I need to change my weapon(s) in light of the Colorado theatre shooting took second place to my defensive mindset and tactics questions. First thing, I had to wonder how likely such a shooting would be in my future. Pretty unlikely. But I carry a gun every day even though I believe (and fervently hope!) I'll never need it. So I decided to think through the exercise.

Okay, the fact is I like movies and I like to see them in a theatre where the picture is nice and big and the sound is good. My wife and I like to sit about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way back from the front of the theatre, and in the middle of the row, where the viewing and sound are best. It occurs to me now that this is a good place to be from a tactical perspective: I am not near the entrances, front or back, so unlikely to be among the first persons shot by a would-be mass murderer.

First tactical priority would be to get us both on the floor and out of the gunman's line of sight. Second priority would be getting to the end of the row where I could get line of sight and take a shot on him.

That's when I started thinking about what I would want to have on me to shoot him with. Let's see... it's gonna be dark, and he's gonna be at one of the darker parts of the theatre, with a big bright movie screen behind him making my pupils constrict so my vision won't be its best. Tritium sights are a good thing, but I'm not sure how much good they'd do me with the movie screen behind/above my target. So it seems to me that a laser dot would be a really, really smart thing to have on my gun in such a situation.

Funny thing... the only CCW handgun I have that has a Crimson Trace laser on it is my J-frame S&W 442 Centennial 38 snub! I have rail-mounted lasers on a Glock 17 and a SIG P220, but they're duty guns, not concealment guns... And the other funny thing is that I've trained with my 442 enough to know that the laser makes it a damned accurate gun out to 25-30 yards, so I'm confident I could put two or three rounds into the perp in short order, and probably before he knew I was even there.

But what if he's wearing armor? Two or three 125 gr GDHP bullets into his trauma plate will NOT stop the slaughter, and will in all likelihood draw his attention to Yours Truly, and shortly after drawing his attention, I'll likely be drawing his fire. Not Good. Under such circumstance, I would want more than 5 rounds at my disposal, because after putting 3 ineffective rounds into his armor, I'm going to have to try to put a bullet into his brain. This may require multiple shots fired to get the necessary hit, and it may require putting a round into his hip joint to put him on the ground before I drill his brainstem. Hmmm. A 5-shot Centennial, even with a super-duper accurate laser on it, might not be the best choice for this scenario.

Then it struck me... I have several Ring's blue guns with CTC lasergrips on them that I use for classes, and one of them is a Glock copy. If I take the CTC grip off the training gun and mount it on one of my Glocks (my G23 is my favorite of the bunch) I would have the advantages I currently enjoy with my little J-frame Centennial, plus I'd have 14 rounds of 40 S&W to get the job done with, and another 14 rounds at my disposal with a single reload. And while the 39 Special 135 gr +P GDHP is a nice, effective load, it doesn't have the quite as much punch as a 180 gr .40 caliber GDHP; maybe not enough of an advantage to make a real difference, but after working with PD's throughout the upper Midwest where a lot of bad guys have been given permanent dirt-naps thanks to the 180 gr GDHP, I have more than a little faith in this round.

So last weekend I took the CTC grip off the blue plastic training gun and mounted it on my G23, and I went to the range and sighted the laser in dead center at 20 yards.

That G23 has been my going-on-the-road gun for about 8 years, and it has served me well. Now it's my going-to-the-movies gun.

Hope the reply wasn't too long, but I wanted to explain my thought processes.

Very true!

Horse schit.


Travis

Very good point

Nobody ever survives a fight while using a 15-shot auto and says to himself afterward, "Man, I wish I had carried a 5-shot revolver instead".

However, I can envision a circumstance where somebody who carries a 15-shot auto could wish he had a 5-shot revolver in his pocket as well.

That's why I carry one of each and a total of 41 rounds of ammo most everywhere I go.

Jesus.

Shark repellent too?


Travis

It is a form of shark repellant, I guess. I am only carrying one reload for each gun. Maybe I should fill my pockets with loose rounds?

I've carried 2 since the early 70's and haven't seen a downside yet.

I carried that many condoms at time after my divorce.

so many variables given that a question like that could run pages...

but in my mind, the typical type of scenario in the woods is likely to be quite different than in the home, on the street, or on the road--in a woods setting, i don't care as much about capacity, and focus more on penetration and power. i use a revolver in the woods--stainless .44 mag or .454 casull, but i hike and climb alot in grizz country, and for me they are a better companion than a 9mm or .45 auto in that setting.

the "pros" concerning revolvers for self defense are "bottom line basic"--they are easier for inexperienced users to "use" and learn, especially in stress situations (though in some cases harder to hit accurately with), and i usually recommend them to almost all women and inexperienced shooters alike. time and time again i've seen numerous women who cannot operate a slide easily, due to weak hand strength. i've also seen inexperienced users confused by semi autos, unless they are dao sans a safety. unlike some situations for guys, if a woman is going to fall under attack, in many cases there may well be only one attacker, so capacity is less of a issue--that woman needs a firearm that is easy for her to figure out and use under stress, on demand--a small, powerful revolver--and i recommend the ruger sp101 in .357. if the gal has trouble handling the recoil, lighter weight pills can be used in it, or .38 + p's with medium to heavier weight pills.

9mm semi autos are very hard to beat for efficiency, and i find that most people that are inexperienced can fire them quite well. they usually do ok if someone is helping them in a range setting, but unless they work at it regularly and diligently on their own, in a time of sudden need--on demand--the semi auto may not be the best choice for that person--a possible "con" for these certain people.

a 9mm with the right ammo can share that "rarified air" with the .357 using 125 grain pills--for years some of the writers said that the 9mm was not powerful or efficient, especially when contrasted against a .357 mag. but in those times past, velocities for the .357 were usually given with 6 inch or longer barrels--however, cut that barrel back to packable snub lengths and it surely changes some. a 9mm with +p or +p+ will rub shoulders with a .357 snub and 125 grain pills.

though i use glocks alot--i'm not a "dedicated fan" of them. if you like 9mm and you like the glock platform/manual of arms, a glock 19 is real good medicine, though i typically use a 17 round g17 mag in them. the glock 26 is also nice--perhaps slightly harder to use--and i usually use the 15 round g19 mag in it. i like a longer handle/grip and a shorter barrel/slide. if concerned about more rounds on tap--for some drills i use the g18 33 round mag, and if out and about on a road trip, i take along the g18 33 round mag for both the 19 and 26 as added insurance/peace of mind.

an interesting note on the nyc cop who whacked the pitbull--i believe they use the 9mm there--and if that is correct, good shot placement--likely stitching the cns--rendered an instant stop on an animal that is known for being more difficult to stop with smaller handgun cartridges--which for you in a hunting situation adds up to yotes in the bag--and if you fail to stop it on the first hit--which will happen at times as coyotes are very determined--hi cap mags will be extra sweet frosting indeed...

but any guy that can whack yotes with a handgun already "knows his way around the block."

I wonder if in a semi-dark theater room, with a shooting going on, with people scrambling for the exits, if there will be enough dust in the air to make the laser visible to the perp. If so he may not be totally caught off-guard by a citizen lining up on him.

mackay,

i remember reading about 35+ years ago that bruce lee was in a particular scrape--one in which he was not able to immediately bring to an end--damaging his fists in the process. it led him to completely overhaul the way he approached his martial art--to devise a new system that emphasized efficiency, directness, and simplicity--to get an opponent on their wallet before they knew what happened.

one has to figure that if someone of bruce's capability saw the need for a "re-evaluation" after an incident--the incident itself--or knowledge of some incident, should set the stage for some evaluation, which may lead to a "re-evaluation".

though unrelated to the theater incident, an example for me--though nothing occurred to precipitate this;

when i used to travel out to blm or state land to perform "all-day-long" handgun drills--whether by myself or with another--i only took handguns along. about 4 years ago i re-evaluated this practice, and the result of that re-evaluation is that now i always take a rifle along when out in open country shooting handgun drills--though i may seldom give it a care or a use when shooting these handgun drills--but it gives me some real peace of mind having it along out in those somewhat more desolate, open regions...

Divorced already? That was quick.

Prayers sent.

Rick

Just kidding, I didn't miss the past tense thing.

Scaredy cat.


Travis

HI Vel,

In regards to the rifle part of your comments:

While I rarely discuss it, rifles have pretty much always been part of the equation around here, both at work and otherwise. I simply keep them on the down low.

I just tend to find them awkward out in social settings.

I carry a Ruger LC9 for CC.Part of carrying concealed is actually having a piece that you can easily do it with.I own several hi-cap pistols ,but they are hard to conceal because of their bulk.I also have a Tomcat in my pocket for back up.Single stack pistols really are the ultimate for carry in my book.

mackay,

wasn't quite sure what you meant on the last part of your post--but this is likely my fault because i mentioned a change i made in the past that is unrelated to your question, but it did serve as an example to re-evaluative thinking.

the rifle is an integral part of my hunting, shooting, home defense, and of course always goes along on longer road trips--as well as two handguns. yet, when going out to do handgun drills--if shooting both rifle and handgun in a session, of course both went along for the ride by necessity. but, when doing handguns drills only, for a period of about 25 years there the rifle stayed at home, but as i mentioned earlier, i re-evaluated that practice about 4 years ago, and at least one rifle always goes along now, even though there is no plan to use it during the handgun shooting drills.

but specifically regarding the theater incident--i've thought alot about the situation those folks were in since that happened. this is difficult, because i cannot see in my minds' eye what was really happening in there--the layout, the lighting, the positions, etc. etc. but at this point i've made no specific changes, as i am very happy with things--it took decades of work to come to my present conclusions--but there will always be room to improve--and this is in my thoughts daily--no definitive re-evaluating conclusion yet though.

regarding that situation for a "movie-viewer" that night, in my estimation, it would have been very difficult to quickly know what was actually happening in that fray, but suffice it to say that the best equipped, most calm pistolero would have been at a significant disadvantage--both with respect to his equipment, and an accurate assessment of circumstances--even if that guy who committed this terrible crime were a beginner in the use of firearms.

the one "conclusion" i did reach so far was; i figure if that cat could have known beforehand that everyone in the theater was surely armed, he would have likely stayed home, knowing that the batman fans just might wanna "scratch and bite"...

i'll visit with ndc about it, as he always has interesting input regarding any scenario, and i'll ask my good friend scenarshooter too--just to hear their thoughts--they're two of my closer shooting friends and i consider their input invaluable.

would be interested to hear your preliminary conclusions or thoughts too...

Fellas,

Just read this entire thread. Pretty interesting thoughts/comments.

I'll just add that whenever in two legged environment I always have my Wilson with a few extra mags, and when in the woods after four legged it's a K-22 and/or Mod 25 in LC.

RLTW

I would not limit choices to the two given in the thread header. I carry a number of different guns for different circumstances. In general, though, the three MOST important factors for me in a carry gun are:

1. Reliability. If the damn thing doesn't work when it absolutely, positively has to, who cares if it's a tack driver?
2. Stopping power. This will be debated until hell freezes over, but all things considered, I'll take the one that makes the biggest hole going in, with the added beneficial effect of using street-proven SD ammo. There are times when I'll carry smaller calibers when I have to, but given a choice, I'll take a .45 or .40 whenever possible.
3. Concealability. Some of us have a harder time concealing than others due to body type, wardrobe, etc. This translates into a smaller-is-better, lighter-is-better requirement.

Going small often conflicts with factor number two, stopping power, and there are always additional tradoffs in choosing carry weapons. That's why I'm looking hard right now at the new XDs .45 and why I'm probably going to get one. It just might strike an optimal balance for me.

The main tradoff is capacity. Minimal acceptable capacity is something each of us must decide for ourselves. Given my conservative lifestyle (apart from pursuing large, hairy animals), I'm comfortable carrying 5+1, with the 7-round mag in reserve. If I haven't solved the immediate problem with that firepower, I'd best be getting the hell out of Dodge anyway.

YMMV, of course. These are simply my personal priorities.

RLTW, a big 'Thanks' for that service. Glad you're back safely.

RLTW,

I can imagine it was a great learning experience in many ways rolling with the ODAs. Lots of great skill sets to pick up from individuals in addition to your overall experience.

(A bit off subject)
When overseas, my 1st line belt was heavy on pistol mags (a bit over 100 rounds in spare mags and the primary)in case I had to drop my kit and haul a$$ for whatever reason. Pistol ammo and blood stoppers primarily, along with some other specific items.



I figured if all else fails, I could get out of dodge quicker in that fashion. Call it the "Monty Python" method..


Glad you made it back, btw.

A quality 1911 45 ACP allows you one shot to do the job and six or seven more for damage control.

I went to my friend's gun shop yesterday. I brought my friend who is a realtor and feels he needs to carry to show houses. There has been a rise in "squatters" and sometimes you go to show a house and there are homeless people in it! He also provides a service and collects rent so it's probably a good idea. He has a hammerless 5 shot .38 special but he wants a semi auto. He wants a small gun that he will be able to carry everywhere and he wants a 9mm. I'd recommend he carry the Cor-Bond 115 grain loads Massad Ayoob developed if he's serious about self defense with a 9mm.

My buddy's Dad was a cop. His Brother is a cop. His other Brother is Harbor Patrol and he's done a lot of shooting. His Brother the cop wants a Smith and Wesson .380 with a built in laser. We looked at it yesterday and the shop owner said that he got 5 in and sold 4 in 2 days. He's got 5 more on order. He said he's sold over a hundred of them... 5 at a time. I think a .380 is too small. I think a 9mm is too small. I'd start with a .40 S&W but he has a couple thousand rounds of 9mm and he said .40 ammo is too much money! What can I say!

In my research, I looked for small, light, reasonably priced semi autos. Kahr Arms is right next door in Massachusetts and they make very nice compact 6 and 7 round semis. I know 2 gun shops that carry them and people have been really happy with them. The all metal guns are around $600. They make a plain Jane version with less milling steps, less engraving, and a couple cast metal parts. It comes with only 1 magazine but it's $400. They make a polymer lower gun that's $350. I also noticed that Sig has a small frame polymer gun for about $400. 7 rounds of .40 S&W. He's favoring a Smith and Wesson gun called a "Shield" that's like $350.

I don't carry because I live in Rhode Island! I do have a compact pre ban Sig compact with a 13 round double stack mag and I have a Glock 17 with the 17 round double stack. They are obviously bigger guns. They have gotten a lot smaller and more concealable in the 20 years since I bought mine. After the high capacity ban, so many single stack mag guns have come out. They are easier to conceal and would be more comfortable to carry around. You are better off taking it everywhere, so a small gun has it's advantages.

For a while, I got into the "carry my 5 shot .38 because it's small and light" way of thinking when off duty. Since the Aurora Co. incident, I have changed my EDC mode. Now, every time I leave the house, I'm carrying a Glock 23 .40 with an extra 13 round mag in my pocket, or my Glock 30SF .45ACP with a 13 round G21 mag in my pocket. I also carry a 4 sevens mini 123 light and a folding knife. the un-trained, un-disciplined active shooter like the one in Aurora, would have a hard time concentrating on killing my sheep when a determined sheepdog (me) is advancing on him bouncing Federal HST's off of his head, no matter how much body armor he is wearing. it's kinda hard to do that with a 5 shot. I'm not suggesting that anybody here has to do that, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna let some SOB kill kids and old ladies while I hide. Ain't gonna happen! YMMV

Thank you!!

Very Good - probably the BEST description I've ever read or heard.

I've used both revolvers & autos enough to be comfortable and hunt with 44 mags.

For carry/defense I perfer FLAT SIDED, hi cap, autos. My 'baby' is a S&W 6906 but I also like the 40 cal, just don't have one.

in an earlier post concerning the theater incident, i mentioned my preliminary thoughts on the matter.

i ended by saying, "i'll visit with ndc about it, as he always has interesting input regarding any scenario, and i'll ask my good friend scenarshooter too--just to hear their thoughts--they're two of my closer shooting friends and i consider their input invaluable".

these are merely immediate, "off-the-cuff" comments:

ndc's comment; it would have been a very difficult situation with a fair amount of concealment--and likely no cover.

scenarshooter's comment; a guy who knew what he was doing--using an hk p7--would have made a significant difference in that situation.

of the hundreds of guys i've shared range time with in the past 40 years or so, these two guys--and of course shrapnel--i would consider to be the most experienced, and the most skilled in the use of firearms.

curiously, all three of these men use the hk p7...

interesting post, I've mulled the need to carry some years after a good friend of mine was killed over in Manley some years back by some whack job that figured he was better off doing his crap in the woods and "getting" lost. That failed and he was killed but left his mark in so many lives thereafter.

the 9/11 incident stirred me as well so I bought a .40 Smith and after reloading and shooting some gave it to my oldest daughter. I soon acquired a G20 and have it to this day as it fills the "bill" sota speak.

my son just got home from the war over there and done a few tours as a young Marine. he now wants a .45 ACP and I do not question his thoughts. He just headed out the door to check on some moose sign finally down river with a bud and I gave him his M29 4" along with 6 rounds and his p64 .338. He was pretty happy to have his hands wrapped onto them pistol grips.

Guess my understanding is that whatever you have in hand to shoot with is better than not having one when the time comes.

I do the same thing-------------if for NO other reason than I hate to see a coyote get off scot free. But more to the point, even if just at the range, or an improvised range, I've always got at least one firearm that stays loaded. Call me paranoid, over prepared, or just wisely cautious...........I still remember that the both of the murderous felons in the '86 Miami FBI shootout kept themselves supplied with guns and vehicles by getting the drop on guys out shooting in rock pits (or at least that's how I remember it), and of course there's Costner getting caught with two empty sixguns in Silverado. While probably a coincidence, that movie came out in '85.........

Interesting history about Lee BTW.

Curious that a P7 could have a laser for use in a dark theater where one could not see his own sights. I had a P7 it was very accurate but I sold it and I stick with more conventional systems. Every one wants to fret over this or that gun or load, I like Dogzapper's comment regarding shooting deer with a 222, He says none of them lived to tell about it. " I just shot them like I would with any other rifle" that my friends is the answer.

And that's a fact Jack.

that is precisely correct--i began to think about things while out shooting in a somewhat remote area at an "improvised range", and though a handgun feels good in the holster--and even better in the hand--when out in an area where distance is involved, a rifle always feels best. whether traveling to, or leaving the area, the rifle magazine is always stoked. sometimes i will walk out--even up to 800 yards out to the targets--and though its a hassle, i always carry the rifle along. the situation with goblins like platt and friends who visited guys while they were out shooting--and relieved them of their gear--was very much part of the reason, as at least half of the time i shoot alone--focusing on my skillsets...

regarding the comments on the p7--often times, i prefer a .45 auto, and when out on the road for a long drive, i take two handguns along--a hi cap 9mm, and a .45 auto, along with a rifle.

i wish they had made the p7 in .45 auto--no, not a sample--but production runs--but they didn't, though they offered it in a .40--which ndc uses along with his 9mm. i have no use for the .40, nor do i care for the p7 in .40, due to the weight they added to the slide--far too heavy.

when speaking of the p7, i do not refer to it as "magic"--a glock 19, or a sig 226, or a p35, or a usp, or a "whatever you desire" will work for all of us. 25 years ago, i chose the p7 as my initial self defense rig because some years earlier my right arm was nearly cut completely off in two places below the elbow--in the initial evaluation, they were going to amputate, but they did save it, saying i would never be able to use it. i now have about 60% use of it; it has very little feeling, has zero dexterity, always feels like it was crushed by an anvil, etc., so i needed something "simple" to manipulate--based on "clench", and the p7 met my need. today i train myself with almost all other systems--to master almost all of them, and have been doing this for about 23 years or so--with my right arm and hand in this condition, it has been a long, arduous road--not just in shooting, but in doing my artwork, my construction work, etc., but with diligence we overcome these setbacks.

i will also point out that as mentioned, scenarshooter uses the p7, ndc uses the p7, and shapnel uses the p7--these are guys that have alot of experience with the p7, and many other different firearms--they all shoot a great deal, and all of them are very highly skilled. all of these guys bought theirs after i purchased mine--but i did not influence them in this matter--they all came to this conclusion on their own.

i find in my personal experience the p7 is the most reliable of all the defensive handguns. even if loading "squib loads" that will in many pistols fail to cycle the action, the p7 still works with lower power loads up to a point, (of course not advisable for defense, but this was discovered in the quest for cheaper ammo, so when using swaged lead pills--and before i used hard cast--which by necessity have to be loaded down--to prevent bothersome leading). unlike published literature advising against lead pills, i never had a problem with the p7 in shooting many multiple thousands of cast bullets--ever. though i never tried it myself, hk claims the p7 will run without the extractor--who else dares to claim that? in timed speed and precision drills, i can shoot the p7 faster and more accurately than any other rig--so it is my top choice in 9mm. but the beauty of it is we americans are so fortunate--for we can shoot these rigs--and own them too--and there is more than a wheelbarrow full to satisfy everyone.

perhaps another line by bruce lee; take what works for you--what is useful to you--and throw the rest out.

some years back i modified this line some for myself; take what works for you--what is useful to you--and file the rest away for another day.

my goal in coming to the 'fire is to learn from all the posts i read--and am always "at once both encouraged, and humbled--by how much varied experiential knowledge everyone here truly has..."

when you need to start shooting 5 rounds will be gone real fast. Ill take 13 in my G23 and won't look back. Its easier to hit a still paper target with no stress than a moving man thats shooting at you. 13 gives me the ability to suppress till i can get some cover. although I do love my 642

yes! Those cops in NYC were firing to suppress and suppressed 9 people besides the killer.

They hit him 10 out of 16 times which is great shooting at someone pointing a 45 in your face. What were they supposed to do, not shoot and let him go about his business. It sucks and was probably those cops worst nightmare to hit the bystanders, but its a situation that the bad guy put the officers and the public in, not a situation that the officers put them in. Wish they wouldnt have missed the guy at all, but thats just not reality when you are being shot at too. Thank God no bystanders were killed. I do agree that suppressing fire is not for every situation but if it is warranted and in the right situation I will be able to

Just spent an hour reading this thread. There's alot of food for thought. The personal experience certainly beats a bunch of guys talkin' chit they heard somewhere. I carry what I have, an ancient Browning Hi-Power 9 and a Colt Govt. 380 backup. The wife carries a .38 snub. Several years back a guy drove his truck thru .the Luby's restaurant in Kileen Tx. and murdered several people. That incident was a big factor in Texans getting concealed carry.

I tend to take the advice of the been-there-done-that folks like Mack.

I also shoot my Glock 20 more accurately and faster than any other handgun I've shot.

Yep, I agree. I've went back to carrying my Glock 20 10mm aft all the recent shootings.
Like Mackay says, I don't want to have to be thinking about a reload if SHTF. And I sure as hell don't won't to have to worry about whether or not my 5-shot S&W 640 has enough rounds or stopping power, if there should happen to be multiple bad guys.

If sh!it ever happens, I hope to hell I am able to just concentrate on my front sight & attackers. I would like to think 15 rounds of 10mm 200gr XTP loads & 1 extra mag will give me a slight advantage over a crazed-nut job or multiple shooters.
I still carry my S&W 640 sometimes, but only as a back-up.

In Viet Nam most Army Aviation units issued .38 Special revolvers. I was in one of the older assault helicopter Co.'s and for some reason we had some .38 revolvers and some standard .45 ACP's. It seems most individuals who were given a choice took the revolvers. I felt well armed either way. We weren't handgun experts (my primary weapon was a M-60 MG) and handguns didn't get used often, but both types seemed to be adequate for the job in most guys experience.

are you a cop, FBI, US Marshal if not then here in the USA every bullet you fire has your name on it and is a potential lawsuit, best forget the suppressing fire fantasy. The interwebbs, video games and TV has everybody thinking they is a "commando".

10 out of 16 is a 63% hit rate, which is above average for LEO shootings, and considering NYPD gets (I've heard) one trip to the range each year to qualify, and they've got NY+ trigger springs in their Glocks, I'd say the two officers did the best they could under the circumstances.

Here is a very brief discussion of NY's accuracy issue. The hit percentages make this weeks shooting look like a huge improvement!
John Lott

YES, suppression fire is a ridiculous notion in a civilian setting. Hollyweird has modeled it for decades though.....

MORE reading on the subject.

Ultimately NYPD needs to start spending the money it takes to train their officers to shoot well, then give them the time/ammo to maintain their proficiency. Squeaking by with one annual qualification only confirms the officer's pistols haven't corroded shut over the previous 12 months.

Sorry? Sorry nothing! I'm sitting here at a kitchen table drinking coffee and browsing the 'net. Its mind-boggling for me to even consider what you guys were involved in. Whatever you were paid, it was off by at least a few decimal places.

Rocky, my wife and I were at an Outback Steakhouse a month ago when a couple that looked just alittle older and grayer than myself, sat in the booth across from us. I noticed he was wearing a USMC ball cap so, being a Marine from the mid-70's, I gave him a "semper fi" and asked who he had been with when on active duty. He mumbled something and his wife said, "go ahead and tell him." To make a long story intolerable, he was a tunnel rat (and still alive!!). Besides the courageous duty that you performed, the only thing that I can think of that comes close are those skinny little fearless guys that crawed into tunnels with a flashlight and a 1911------geez, you guys and those tunnel rats embody courage that I can't imagine!!!

Minnesota Crossroads Mall attack:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oRgKglQy0o


The Muslim attacker fell down and got up 3 different times after being shot a total of 6 times.

6 hits in 10 shots fired, in a very dynamic, constantly moving scene.

The off duty guy was using a standard capacity auto, and it was barely enough.

I figure I would put this video here, after I ran across this old thread, and read some of the perceptions about "it's not combat", "2-3 shots is average", and "a 5 shot revolver is plenty" attitudes.

The more the merrier.

Revolver any time.

During a. Oncealed carry class my wife and I each shot 100 with S&W revolver

There were two older guys there with nifty new Glocks.

They had to shoot through three rounds before they passed.

If you believe in filling the air full of lead and you don't care about by-standees the Glock might be your choice.

Do you strive to be retarded?




Travis

That's strange, my Glocks are all quite accurate.

Maybe the 'two older guys' would have shot just as bad with revolvers. We will never know...

An epiphany for the masses. Placement trumps gimmicks 7 days/wk. I see no reason to limit myself to a 5 shot revolver, but a 6 shooter is adequate. If one needs more than a couple or three shots a shotgun might be more appropriate.

Well gee that settles it.

I'll take that as a yes.



Travis

PS-I can outshoot you with my Glock.

Unless, of course, one exists in the real world where carrying a Glock 19 is practical and carring a concealed shotgun is not.

Given all of the dribble here, I'll follow that advise of MacKay and Montana Marine any day. Real world gun fighting experience beats "I read it somewhere but never lived it."

I go over 40 years of military service on Nov 24th. To a man and woman, not a single person I know who has actually been in a gunfight wished they had a five or six shot revolver. That's out of probably 35-ish I know well enough to have asked.

Pass the Glocks with high cap mags, and hold the six-shooters.

A few years back I carried a 1911 and my GF carried a 5 shot stainless Rossi 38...this was around the time of the Luby's incident.

I did a lot of drills at 25 yards with my 1911. I could keep them in the black rapid fire with my 1911 and about 8" with her Rossi.

With concentration, she could keep her rounds on paper at that range but she couldn't even hit backstop with my 1911.

That plus her Rossi fit into her smallest purse easily so she always had it. There were many situations when I didn't have my 1911 on me due to it's size and mostly weight.

Her mindset if a dire confrontation ensued was to push the muzzle forcibly into the attackers chest and keep pulling the trigger until the threat was ended to protect her and her kids.

I think her concept was spot on...realistic and correct.

In that scenario, a 1911 or Glock might not be a good choice.

Danger will mostly happen immediately, suddenly, and at close range within seconds and without warning.

I'm no gunfighting expert, but I've carried revolvers and autos as duty weapons in hostile places, and have been through a few good shooting schools, and done some instructor time as well.

When we were getting ready to invade Iraq in 2003, I was with 2d Marine Expeditionary Brigade in northern Kuwait. At a meeting I suggested all us M9 pistol bearers should swap for rifles with those remaining in the rear party. I got looks like I had a dick growing out of my forehead.

I noted a couple years later, that M4 carbines were being issued to everyone in country, not wearing stars....Maybe I wasn't so far off after all.

Long way of saying, if you know you are going into a hostile situation, carry more than a pistol if at all possible.

You are a boor, a loud mouth, scum of the earth GFY

Lighten up Francis,

Travis is good people. We've shared more than one campfire.

I wonder if that muslim in Minnesota was hopped up on opium? That's a lot of rounds to take.

I do dearly love my Glock 23 and my Springfield Champion 1911, carrying both at certain times, especially in winter cloths. I carry my 5 shot Ruger 38 special when I am dressed like the cheap whore that I am, but never feel really comfy with it.

Thanks for the link Mack.

Bugger appears to have more temper than experience. While I own more than a few revolvers, and would use any of them defensively if that's all I had in my hand, I'd MUCH prefer a Glock for it's ability to quickly and accurately place an undetermined number of shots into an unknown need.

My love for 1911's equal my love for revolvers, but a few years ago I reconsidered my values and priorities, and Glocks bumped my 1911s into retirement for daily carry.

I love revolvers.
I have a Smith Model 15 target and a Dan Wesson .357 Vent Heavy.
Great guns....shoot where you point them.

I also have a CZ 75 SP-01....cool piece....19+ friggin 1

It used to be that autos weren't to be trusted.
Might jam...go revolver for self defense.

Now it's a moot point....autos have proven themselves.

So for carry I'm going to try the new Walther single stacker.
PPS M2 .... about an inch wide.
The large mag is 8+1
I'll take my chances with that.

I can't believe somebody thinks I'm good people.

Thanks Shane!

BUMP



Travis

What just happened here today?

I sure would hate to lose a gun fight, because I was out of ammo.

Say what you want, Deflave is cool!!!

same here - for pocket carry. For belt carry, I like the S&W 3913 (for summer) and the S&W 4516 (for winter.

I've since re-assessed that opinion and now prefer a Glock 19. Sold the 442.

The teaching I've had, say differ.

How many shooting classes have you attended ?

Yeah, most police officers now carry wheel-guns. I think not.

It's all good fun. Keep your powder dry.

Nailed it.

my pocket gun......44 Special......200 gr XTP's

Thanks for posting that. But I'm still curious, does anyone know what the cop was using? Pistol? Cartridge? ammo?

I personally prefer a semi-auto like the Shield over the revolver just because it is more comfortable to carry for me and easier to hit with one the distant increases past belly range.

I have not read through all of the posts, but here is my take on the issue. I spent 27 years in law enforcement, carrying both semi and revolver. With lots of training, the semi-auto is fine, but will never be as reliable.

That being said, I have both and carry both. Here is the other side of the coin. My wife has a concealed carry permit. She carries her gun in her purse in its own compartment-cc purse. She carries a Ruger LCR .38, which is super-light and handy. There are many possible scenarios where she would reach in and pull the trigger INSIDE the purse compartment. With an auto, she would have one shot before jamming. The revolver would fire all five times.

Add this to the fact that it takes less training and practice to stay adequate with a revolver, and you have a clear winner. Very few situations are rectified by have a whole gob of ammo in your magazine anyway. A cc situation is quick and over for the most part.

Carry what you wish and argue about it all day long, but to me, the revolver is a clear winner.

My wife saw guys in her cc class that took the fancy, schmancy autos right out of the box and TRIED to go through the class with it. It was a mess and she out shot them all, due to their lack of familiarity with the guns.

That made me chuckle.

On page one of this thread I wrote the following, which was actually a "cut and paste" from something written earlier baout the subject. :


Carrying a revolver does not automatically make one a cooler head in a fight or a surer shot. That is pure hogwash.Stating that anyone who carries a high cap gun or an auto is in the "spray and pray" crowd shows both a lack of intelligence and a lack of real world experience. I suppose it makes them feel better to be the morally superior handgunner. Every time I say that publicly though it ruffles a lot of feathers.

In fact, other than a very few older(badass)PPC shooters that still work the job, the majority of "on the job" wheelgun users that I have had the opportunity to observe (generally jailers/reservists and such) are notoriously poor shooters.

Their reloading skills are a joke too. THERE IS ONLY ONE JERRY MICULEK. The vastly overwhelming majority of LEOs and non LE citizens can reload a semi auto much faster than a wheelgun. I have been a firearms instructor for 15 years and have seen some flat out scary people with both semi autos and revolvers.

THE POINT OF A HIGH CAPACITY SEMI AUTO IS NOT ABOUT SHOOTING MORE, IT IS ABOUT MANIPULATING LESS. Pause,re read and reflect upon that.

If it works for her, and she is competent, confident, and satisfied, my personal opinion is "Rock On!".

While I believe the modern semi auto has significant advantages over a revolver, that does not mean they are for everyone, and while I would pretty much always personally prefer a lightweight, large capacity auto in a fight against other humans, that is not to say that I would not wade into a fight with a modern, full sized revolver of adequate caliber.

Clark,

Don't be too ecstatic!

Marine have long been known for high morale and low morals (as an example, the company they keep).

That said, A BIG "Happy 241st Birthday!" to Shane. A few days late.

Thanks,

That's Travis' B-Day too, he's a Marine as well.

When they start manufacturing DO semi autos with acceptable trigger pull, I might start carrying one.

All these small semi's that have hellacious recoil puts people off and 8-9# trigger pull puts the probability of poor marksmanship in a stressful situation in question, These do not lend themselves to the typical CWC that probably only shoots a few times a year. Then you get into the problem that many smaller frame individuals have a hard time even wracking the slide

Those that shoot often can master them. Others, not so much. With a revolver and a decent trigger jog ,acceptable double a action can be had. Seems the people that are proponents of semi's do not take these things into consideration.

And handsome!




Travis

That shouldn't be advertised.

It could lead people to think we're all perfect.




Travis

Maybe.

But my money would still be on Travis with his Glock.

+1.




Travis

A few years ago I was tracking a wounded boar. On our final encounter he charged from 10 yds. I put seven 230 gr. harball rounds in him and he dropped at my feet.







275 lbs of bad attitude!



No more Mr. Niceguy.



It's a 15 round Glock 20SF for me these days.



Load a 200 gr. Hornady XTP, next to a FMJ, no rinse, repeat!



Works for me!

JAPPFT,



GWB

5 or 15?....Consider our new reality, and the types of threats we face,



Today, 'juvenile' flash mobs attacking people in Philly,


https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...0.4111.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1ac.

When you live amongst the Zombies, it makes the decision pretty easy.

I am not a gun writer, but I suspect several of these posters are not either.

I am an old retired cop - ok, I confess an old retired administrator. But consider this in my response. When choosing a five man shooting team to represent my command of almost 600 sworn officers, my score would have put me on the team. I declined to let another of the patrol officers have that slot.

I own five J-frames, one K-frame, two large frame .357 Smiths, one 1909 Colt, two 1911s, and a Sig 229 in .357 Sig. I'm scaring eighty, but I still shoot decently on the qualification course. This past year I got sloppy and dropped two points with the Sig. I shoot the Model 28 and the 1911s marginally better, but less loading is required with the 12+1 Sig.

I normally carry an old friend, a S&W 42. It is light and easily disappears into the front pocket of a par of khakis, jeans, or slacks, even equipped with a set of banana stocks. This choice is not based on power or accuracy, even though I shoot it well enough, but rather it is one that I am more likely to carry.

While I was still a patrol officer and as a sergeant, I was in at least three scrapes, perhaps four, where deadly force was justified. Thanks to close distance and a God given gift of strength, I was able to disarm two, convince one that the revolver in his ear was going to be loud, and KOed another with one good right. Good thing, the punch disabled the attacker and partially disabled me. My hand was broken. Not good! But, no one died.

I used to counsel my subordinates thusly. If you are looking for someone to kill, you are in the wrong business. Conversely, if you don't go home to your loved ones at the end of your shift, you have let them and the people you protect down. Yes, it is often a split second decision. (Police assignations were almost unheard of and are a whole other matter).

As far as concealed carry is concerned, I think the 1911 is equally concealable as the compact Sig. Glocks get good press and likely deserve it. I never learned to love a Glock.

Best wishes and be safe,

Jack

I think you are right on jt402.Too many today are choosing their carry firearm for comfort rather than usefulness. Witness the growing popularity of these subcompact .380's Although I would not want to be shot with one, they are a pi$$ poor chamebering for self defense.

I know people that have lived, and worked in places a lot fugking rougher than Colorado that have done just fine with .380's in their pocket.




Travis

+1

What you do before during and after is far more important than the caliber you choose. I've felt comfortable with a 380 lots. I find this argument against capacity funny because I carry both 5 shot revolvers and hi-caps and never does the ol' fogey phrase "all's I need" enter in my mind when I pocket a 642, it's just another level of awareness. Congrats?

Don't get me wrong.

I much prefer more rounds to less rounds and a long sight radius to a shorter sight radius.

But sometimes I'm half in the bag and just want to wear my swim trunks when I walk to the convenience store.




Travis

I'm for carrying whatever I think will get me out of whatever crap I may encounter and to a safe spot where I can call for artillery.

Worked well in the past.


that ranges from mouse guns to hi cap.

A lot of days I'm carrying both at the same time.

It doesn't have to be "vs", they complement each other well.

As a former Marine, and now a retired LEO, I can say - whatever.

Every choice is a compromise of something.

Light, small, easy to conceal - usually means less "firepower" or rounds.

Bigger, heavier, harder to conceal - usually means more rounds.

Take your pick.

Having something is better than nothing. After that the number one thing you have is your brain and your will to win. Equipment often times dictates tactics. Knowing what your tactics will be with your equipment puts you ahead in the game.

As a marine my equipment was dictated to me, so were my tactics. As an LEO my equipment was dictated to me, so were some of my tactics. The difference maker ultimately is me. What I decide to do with the equipment I have and the circumstances at hand. I just wanted to win.

If my capabilities and tactics are lacking with the equipment I have, I have no one to blame. If the numbers / tactics of others / or anything else are better than mine - I just hope to take some with me....

SC