Hi All...at my club range today to re-shoot that 45gr. load from last week that gave those puzzling results.....

Rifle - 308W... Ed Brown Marine Sniper...built in 2000....24" KREIGER BBL....Jewell Trigger set at 40oz.....Swarovski 4 x 16
Temp 58deg....Sunny....

Lapua Cases 2nd Loading CCI BR2 NOSLER 165gr. Partition
2.810" OAL

5 SHOT GROUP

45gr. VARGET

#1 - 2755fps
#2 - 2723fps
#3 - 2745fps
#4 - 2696fps
#5 - 2750fps
AVG - 2734fps
ES - 59fps
SD - 22fps

LOAD #2 - Same as above except 45.5gr VARGET..

#1 2767fps
#2 2768fps
#3 2760fps
#4 2745fps
#5 2748fps
AVG 2758fps
ES 23fps
SD 9FPS

The interesting thing about 45.5gr load was that it placed 3 shots into ONE hole at 100yds....I was NOT shooting for groups but was trying to place the bullets thru the same spot over the chrono - (RCBS Chrono)...

46gr is MAX in Nosler #6 manual...will try that next...no pressure signs at 45.5gr...Velocity is in the ballpark re the Nosler #6 Manual....

NEXT was 30/06...Rifle is Winchester Pre 64 #65xxx...24" bbl...Bausch & Lomb 3 x9

Load is: Lapus Cases 2nd Loading CCI BR2 Nosler 165gr. Partition 3.310" OAL

57.5gr. Hodgdon 4350 MAX. LOAD in Nosler #6 Manual

5 shot group

#1 2829fps
#2 2870fps
#3 2888fps
#4 2859fps
#5 2856fps
AVG 2860fps
ES 59 fps
SD 19fps

These 5 shots grouped into .75" at 100yds....Once again, I was NOT shooting for accuracy...just trying to place the bullets over the same spot in the chrono...no pressure sings and plenty of recoil and blast...57.5gr of H4350 fills these Lapua cases to the base of the neck...

OK...I am of the opinion that I am getting all the velocity these two weapons can deliver...which is not too shabby either...now the hard part is which one do I use on opening day of deer & bear season here in NY on Nov 19th...????? AHHHHH...life's difficult decisions......
What say ye learned gentlemen....????

Pete

Easy, which ever rifle floats your boat. Is ~100 FPS really going to matter? I doubt it, but I'll defer to the experts.

If you deliberately shoot a 1/4" group at 100 yards, how different would the bullet paths over the chrono be?

Now don`t mess things up with logic!!!

sarg... - as has been noted, 100 fps is indeed small. Hunt the rifle you like best OR both.

My ? is why do you have a 24" bll. on a 308? OTOH, most 308s w/22" blls. won't came w/in 100 fps w/165 gr. bullets.

My .308 has a 26" barrel and shoots those 165 ABs in the 2830s. It's almost a 30-06!

prm - then there's that. Very good!

2000MR comes dangerously close to evening the playing field and making this a moot discussion. 2840 fps for 165 gr Partition in my 23" 308 win.

....and 60 gr H205 took the 30/06 with 165's to 3000 fps from the 23" barrel of a M76 Dakota I owned;and RL19 comes darn close....not surprising when we consider that many on here use todays slow burners to get a solid 2800 fps from the 30/06 with 180's.....

Where we at? Does it matter on a deer or black bear? No; but things are what they are.....

All day, every day, case capacity wins the day.

+1.

+ 2

Not really. ACCURACY wins the day.

In terms of power and trajectory At 500 yards 150FPS difference means NOTHING with the exact same bullet..

100 Ft lbs difference at that distance, tops.

Ask the USMC how they feel about the .308 vs the 30-06.

(Hint- they don't give a rat's azz about the extra 150 FPS..)

Absolutely capacity wins the day purely in terms of velocity. But looking back in history the 30-06 earned its reputation as an exceptionally capable cartridge on nearly every type of game in the world. The 30-06s that earned that reputation were likely shooting at velocities closer to today's .308. New powders are a wonderful thing. 'tis a great time to be a handloader.

That's very true. I own an '06 myself, but I would not trade a good .308 for one.

But even comparing factory ammo with the same bullets, the difference is not as great as folk would think.

Hmmmm. It seems both are more than accurate enough. I'd take the one thats the lightest, more comfortable to carry. Which one handles better for you?

solved for me... 26 inch Rock in 308 Win... don't own an 06. Well thats not totally true as there are 3 or 4 or 5 M1 Garands in the safe..... but with a good 308, my next step up is in the 300 mag world for 30 cal.

As a fellow NYer with over 60 yeras of hunting this state, it would be my estimation thet either rifle has more than enough horsepower and accuracy than you will need - even for the Moose in the Adirondacks which you will not be hunting.

The decision is not ours.

If it were mine to make I'd choose the one that I could shoot best in hunting situations. You probably will have few opportunities to shoot NY game from a bench.

That said, a few years ago I was working up loads for my 300WSM for a Newfoundland hunt. I had put about six rounds 200 yds. down range when El Bruno walked through in front of my target. Moments later the cub came out playing there. I waited 'till they ambled off and resumed.

Hope you have a great hunting season and are happy with your choice of rifle.

Jim

As a hunter, primarily,I don't ever confuse my activities and objectives,with the good guys at the USMC,although there is minor overlap. After all, we are both aiming at things.....

A gun store pal is a Marine armorer;he never says anything bad about the 30/06

And I don't recall ever saying accuracy(the ability to "hit",which is slightly different)is unimportant....that would be silly.

About as silly as the talk I hear,mostly on here,that "velocity does not matter"....

In a hunting rifle,of course it matters! Within certain parameters,of course,and not to excess,because other factors start to play in. But it is important...if it were not,we would have stopped at the 45/70,30-30 and 30/40 Krag and let it go at that...

Added velocity from a larger case(and 150 fps)flattens trajectory,increases rotational velocity,and facilitates bullet expansion at distance, important considerations for a hunter who deals with animate targets that change positions quickly,are likely on the move,and with little time to deploy the equipment required to call distance precisely.

Point blank range is increased, if even only a bit....under some circumstances,this can be "enough"....especially to the hunter, alone,who has no one with him to read conditions,determine distance,click up,and call shots.

In hunting, there are no second chances;and no group shooting....only first shots, and terminal hits.....everything else is a disaster,the wheels have fallen off and conditions are not getting better.

There are solid reasons that high velocity cartridges are frequently seen in the hands of open country hunters.....even those who can shoot.

Greater velocity also expands tough hunting bullets "better",which work well on game animals,while Marines generally only care about putting a bullet on target....they shoot mostly paper,people,and "things"....none of which require much in the way of the terminal performance we expect on game animals.

And the 308 displays the same characteristic that many smaller cases do....that is,to come close to the next cartridge up in velocity with light to medium weight bullets,mostly at pretty high pressures to get there.....but gets left firmly in the dust when bullet weight increases(an important consideration for larger game;and maybe even for dealing with "conditions", the heavier, higher BC bullets at higher velocity aiding "hitting" where wind is a factor); which is ,again slightly different from pure mechanical accuracy.....for a really good answer, I suspect we can ask Shane(Montana Marine) about all this.He knows better because he spends a lot of time,with both,at distance and from accurate rifles to boot.

And the 30/06's proven ability to nicely manage everything from 150's to 220 gr bullets at meaningful velocities (there's that case capacity thing again),makes it suitable,if not perfect,for everything from antelope to elephant...

The 308 is a fine round....but if you cannot hit with a 30/06,from a hunting rifle,you need more practice...not a 308.


To the OP, if the 4350 load in your 30/06 is troubling from a blast/recoil perspective, load it with 4064 or RL15 instead....it will then recoil just like your 308,go as fast or faster still,and do the same things,especially in hunting weight rigs.

I give up. Shoot for groups at 200 and 300 and see which is more accurate? Because if you weren't shooting for groups, the one-hole group could be random.

BobinNH,

Great explanation and very informative. Thanks!

I agree about the 200-300 yard test. One test at 100 is inconclusive. You need better data.

I find it interesting that any time anyone (including me) gives a real world velocity that uses a reliable sourced listed load in any of the '08 based cartridges that there is someone just waiting to pounce so to speak on the fact that they have gotten way more in their '06 based cartridge. The 308 win (and 7-08) in the hands of an informed handloader with today's powders and bullets can better all but a couple of High Energy/SuperPerf options out there for most factory ammo for the '06 based rounds. How many factory loads are there for 165 gr '06 that better 2840 fps? I can find two (Fed HE and Hor SP). I have a great Short Action rifle, weighing 7-2 scoped, shooting 50 grains of powder, bettering 98% of the guys out there hunting with their '06, and that is cool. Maybe I just like the underdog, but the Long Actions have zero appeal to me and the fact I'm beating most '06 loads only makes it that much better.

If you read the opening post,the OP reports load results from the 308 and the 30/06,therefore inviting comparisons,which is what he got.. You might have missed this point.

Me personally, just because I love cool old rifles, I'd hunt the pre-64 Win. I couldn't care a rat's ass whether or not the Ed Brown could put 50 rounds through the same hole at 300 yds. It just doesn't squirt my pickle like that ol' Winchester does.

But you do whatever blows your skirt up.

How well do 220 grain Partitions group in that .308?

+1. Bob always make such damn good points it's hard to argue. I will ad though that shooting through the chrono and "not shooting for groups" tells us nothing about how the load really shoots (accuracy wise). Those groups could have been a total fluke. Just sayin......

There it is!

I predict your question will be answered by noon of the first day if you carry that heavy Marine Sniper rifle and huge scope around all day long.

TC