I'm proud for The Campfire to have a new feature article entitled "Best Buys In Binoculars" by our own Mule Deer (John Barsness) on the Home Page . MD has graciously agreed to answer specific questions about the article here on this thread.

Go easy on him guys. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Mule Deer! This is a treat.

Rick Bin

Another great optics article by John. He does a fantastic job of explaining "how" and "why" in words we all understand and gets right to the point. Thanks Rick And John.

About your "Best Buys in Binoculars" article... (nice article BTW)....

I figure Eagle Optics must've been among those thirty tested, yet they didn't make the cut?

Birdwatcher

How do the Wind River 8x42 P1's compare with today's brands in their class?

Birdwatcher--

Nope, didn't test Eagle Optics, mostly because they have shown some reluctance to send test optics to hunting writers. I have looked at them while at trade shows, and they seem to be good glass for the price, but have not had the chance to compare them directly against others, so could not in ghood conscience include them.

This was one of the questions I anticipated, so am glad to get it out of the way quickly....

MD

John,
Just Logged in again to the "new" site and haven't read the article.
I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your presence here.

The Wind River P1's are good glass, not quite as good as the ones listed, but the difference is so slight that I wouldn't spend money replacing them. I own one of the original P1's and still use it from time to time. A darn good binocular!

The new Leupold Gold Ring reviewed in the article is in another clas entirely. Of course, so the is price--but it is indeed a genuine $1000 binocular, well worth the price.

MD

What is it about the B&L (now Bushnell) Discoverer series binoculars that keeps them from making the cut? I have a pair and really like them but I've noticed in several reviews by several writers they're never mentioned.

John,
Great article, I already bought Pentax SP's based largely on your previous recommendation's and am very happy. You mentioned a while back you did and article on Rangefinders, when is it coming out?
Thanks again for answering questions.
Martin

John;
I was pleased to see the Bushnell Legend 8X32 made your list. I have recommended them to several friends on a budget looking for good glass. Dollar for dollar they'd be hard to beat.

John,
Great update to your book info. I caught a lot of flack last year when buying my 8 x 30 Zeiss Diafun's, from my bigger is better friends. After reading "Optics for the Hunter" I feel my choice was for the best for my hunting needs(especially on sale for under $300.00). Looking towards Leupolds new 12-40 x 60 spotting scope now for out west use.
Thanks again for being a voice of sensibility in this time of poor little whitetail's being shot with 375 UM's at 75 yards.
MCS

How about the Nikon 8X42 ATB's. They seem pretty clear, anthough not as clear as the Leica 10X32 BNs I also own.

Natchez has been running a closeout on "Remington" bino's. They claim BAK4 and fully coated lens. A friend bought a pair 8x42 roof prism. they sure look good for $80.
-Doc-

Excellent, excellent article.

Thank you,

Any word on Steiner Peregrine's? Their latest offering.

While the Leupold Katmai is a good binocular for the price I don't care for the pair I purchased at a conservation fundraiser. I like to have a pair of binoculars in each vehicle so this is just a spare set not for primary hunting. The optics are excellent but the eyepiece design is terrible. They are almost impossible to twist and when you do the rubber comes off. I understand that you probably cannot do a durabilty test but this would be very helpful in an evaluation. I'd have to give them a thumbs down for eyecup design.

John,

Did you get a chance to test any of the Fujinon optics?

Also, I know they are a lower end optic, but how about Barska, what are your feelings towards that brand and quality?
My buddy, just bought a pair of 15x70"s by Barska, and they seem to be alright for the price.

Also I did not see any 15x optics mentioned in the article. Is there a reason for that?
I live in Arizona, and I use 15x60 Fujinon when I hunt and guide. There are also a ton of other hunters/guides in AZ that use 15x optics either in Swarovski, Ziess or other top names.
Do you have any plans on doing a story/article on long range optics that will include 15x plus optics?

Great article! It was composed very well and it kept my attention. I look forward to reading more of your stuff online or in magazines. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us.

Enrique

I realize the advantages of a roof prism binocular for hunting, and noticed that you did say for those on a tight budget to go with porros.

However, I think this needs to be made into a much bigger point than it is. Cheapo porros beat out some of the better roofs easily in the "good looks" department for resolution and brightness, and can be had for a fraction of the price. And after using some porros recently for all my hunting and birdwatching, I have found that with the slightest care they have lasted over years now without a bobble. Of course, the better (and easily the best) porros make roofs seem dim in comparison.

I think that a good evaluation of current porro models is deserved, since even the midgrades like the Nikon Actions or Bushnell Legends can keep up with all but the best roofs, and can be had new on EBay for under $100. Even if they broke every single year, which they do not, most people could get a better view a lot quicker than saving years for high-end roofs.

I also think that binocular manufacturers produce what they think will sell, and thus porros are not "faddish" right now (except among top-end birdwatchers) because everyone has jumped on the roof bandwagon. There is little reason from an engineering perspective that a manufacturer cannot produce porros that are rugged enough for serious backcountry hunting. Invert the barrels for crying out loud, and put a tough mother-of-a-hinge on there, and make sure the lens/prisms are well-secured. They could easily produce an inverted model with 32-35mm objectives, which would be small and rugged, and give a crystal clear view for a low price. All they need is someone to demand it.

Cabela's has a very good price on discontinued B&L Discoverer porro prism binoculars. I wonder how these rate as they were in the $300 range just a few months ago.

They seem to have all the features one could want-rubber armouring, twist down eyecups, multicoating with rainguard.

I abandoned my Japanese B&L Zephyrs years ago for the roof prism Swarovski SLC. I still have one of the SLC's, but recently have rediscovered the Zephyrs, based in part on what I read from Jack O'Connor decades ago and part in a comment on buying old optics in a book called "Optics for the Hunter." I found a Rochester made 7X35 Zephyr in new condition and a 9X35 almost as good. These just amaze me.

I like them so much that I told the friend I gave the Japanese Zephyrs to that I get them back if he dies before me.

Cheers

Optics For The Hunter. Sounds vaguely familiar. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That book was written by Mr. Barsness, and is available here:

http://www.riflesandrecipes.com/

It's a must have.

Rick

How good are the Pentax porro prism binoculars, the PCF WP and WP II's? They have a hinge that appears to be as solid as a roof prism glass, and if I'm not totally mistaken, they focus internally with a lens, just like a roofer. I looked at some a year or so ago, and I do not remember seeing any external focusing arms going out to the oculars. They are JIS Class 6 waterproof, submersible to 3 meters rated, so I would think they should be considered very very waterproof. Weight is about the same as most good 8x40/8x42 roofs, so that wouldn't be much of a concern to me. I know they would be slightly bulky, but so what I am too at 40 years old <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.I've not heard much opinion on these glasses, yay or nay, so if anyone cares to elaborate, it would be interesting to read.

BTW, I have a copy of Optics for the Hunter, great reading about all things optically related to hunting.

I will try to answer all the questions, but if I miss any remind me.

I cannot review every binocular made every year, but the list is of particularly good buys among a great many binoculars.

Some pretty good binoculars were left off the list because they didn't stand out, I couldn't get a review sample, or the sample sucked. For instance, a sample Steiner Peregrine was apparently defective, but have not seen another sample since.

Would like to do a review of good Porros or big glass, but the market is incredibly small for each. 15x glass is apparently almost never used outside of Arizona, for instance. I did do a column on big binoculars for RIFLE a few years ago, and that apparently satisfied the reader's (and editor's) wishes for quite a while.

As an example of the Porro market, about 10 years ago B&L made a very fine 8x50 with inverted barrels, waterproofing and rugged hinge. It's optical quality rivaled the Zeiss Night Owls, the state of the art at the time, but the B&L cost half as much. It died within a year because it wouldn't sell. I have even tried to sell mine a couple of times, once here on the Campfire (obsolete binoculars merely take up space in my work) and didn't get a bite.

I haven't written the rangefinder article yet, as I've been waiting for "new" Swarovski to throw into the mix. It was announced 1-1/2 years ago and I still haven't gotten a review sample. If I wrote it without the Swarovski everybody would ask: Where's the Swarovski?

Have tried to figure out a way to do a durability test on binoculars. I do this with scopes all the time, by mounting them on a .338 or .375 and popping off 20-50 rounds. But the only way to do it with binocs would be to hand out samples to several dozen guides, and even then you'd get widely varying results. Some Alaskan guides could apparently break a Panzer tank within a week, and some Wyoming guides almost never use binoculars outside the pickup cab. But I did leave out some binoculars that fell apart in my hands during the review process.

MD

MD;

Was one of those that fell apart in your hands a Ziess Conquest? I was surprised they weren't on your list. The opitical quality seems high for the price but the ones I've handled didn't strike me as the most durable binoculars you could buy. Your experiences with these?

Speaking of durability:

Some years ago when I was working for a sporting goods chain store (that has since gotten much larger) we were treated to a private product show by various reps from companies whose products we carried. A swarovski rep at this show was asked about the durability of his company's rifle scopes during a presentation. His answer to the question was to turn around and throw one of his scopes as far as he could into the empty sporting clays range behind his booth. After retrieving the scope, he passed it around for all to examine. Granted, a bit showman-like, but the effect was hard to ignore.

Later, at the Leupold booth, several of our people requested the same demonstration from their rep. He sheepishly refused. I'm sure the Leupold would have done just as well (or, more accurately, the odds of damage would have been no greater) but we didn't get to find out. While not an empirically robust test, I wish the Leupold rep would have had a bit more faith in his product.

That anecdote aside: The chain store no longer sells Swarovski but does a brisk business in Leupold's lower-end line.

Nope, the one that fell apart that really sticks in my mind is a Swaovski SLC 8x30. I was turning the eyecup out and it came off--not because they can be unscrewed (in Swarovskis they can) but because it was held on by a single, small steel pin.

The Conquests didn't make the cut because others in the same price range were judged slightly better in optical quality.

Thanks for the story--which mostly proves that throwing a scope proves nothing. Now, mounting one on a rifle and then dropping the entire rifle on the scope might.

MD

Good point, for years my prefered binoc were 7x35 Nikon Naturalists, which then went for around $100 retail.

However I DID break them every year, as well as comparable models from other manufacturers, often more often than once a year. That recurrent $100 becoming just an accepted cost (at the time they mostly rode around in my motorcycle saddlebags so theft was a real risk, precluding me buying a more expensive pair).

Another caveat I would add is that, in my experience, quality control on inexpensive binocs is far less consistent than with pricier models. Back then, I much preferred to test a few pairs in person before buying.

Specific to those Nikons, optical quality went out the window when they first shifted production to China maybe ten years back. They seem to have returned to par since then.

Birdwatcher

"Nope, the one that fell apart that really sticks in my mind is a Swaovski SLC 8x30. I was turning the eyecup out and it came off--not because they can be unscrewed (in Swarovskis they can) but because it was held on by a single, small steel pin."

Mule Deer, I was thinking about selling my 6 year old 8x30 SLC and getting a new version, sounds like maybe I should keep the ones I have. What do you think?

Since then they have come out with yet another generation of SLC 8x30's, which I haven't seen yet, so don't know what they are like.

Some of the older 8x30's got dimmer as time passed, due to a yellowing inside. If yours don't show that I would keep them. I have one of the rare 7x30 SLC's that they made for a while and am not about to give them up, probably from just a little earlier.

MD

I was in the market for a new binocular...something a little lighter than my B&L Elites 8x40. I came across a link to Eagle optics on this forum and thought I would check out their prices on the Nikons MD was commenting on. Ended up buying their 8X32 platinum series unit and took it to Africa and was actually very pleased with the performance. Now I am definitely no optics critic but this model served me well. THEN...I find out they are pricks when it comes to hunting! Oh well, live and learn. Won't happen again but it ain't bad glass for the money.

John,
Have you had a chance to examine the Leupold 6X32 Katmai binocular?
RS

msc--

I did not say Eagle Optics were anti-hunting, and in fact they claim not to be, as you can learn on another thread under Hunting Optics.

Here's what happened to me: A few years ago at the SHOT Show, Swarovski invited several dozen folks to a big dinner. My wife and I ended up at the same table as the then-North American president of Swarovski and one of his top sales people (both of whom I knew well, ahd had hunted with) and the couple that owns Eagle Optics.

The Eagle folks seemed to be nice people, but the Swarovski president (who was planning to hunt with me later that year) whispered that I probably shouldn't talk about hunting too much. So instead when we talked about the hunting trip, we called it a birding trip.

I did, however, did ask the Eagle people if they would be interested in sending me their binoculars to be reviewed. They seemed interested, and we exchanged cards, with notes on the back, etc. etc. The binoculars never showed up and I shrugged.

This has happened to me with other optics companies as well. I generally shrug because I am busy enough testing optics from companies who want to be reviewed (and also busy packing up most of the same and sending them back) without asking more than once to see yet another new binocular in a field that is already crowded.

This may seem lazy, but at some point the effort involved ceases to pay, either in knowledge or money.

MD

Have seen the 6x Leupold Katmais and they appear to be of equal quality to the other Katmais. But we only had the 8x32 to test against other glass.

I don't mention 6x binoculars much anymore in my reviews, though not because I don't like them. Six is a very handy magnification, especially in smaller glass where slightly les magnfication tends to improve the image somewhat over higher magnifications.

But 6x glasses are almost impossible to sell, because most binocular buyers want POWER. The same is true, to a certain extent, of even 7x binoculars anymore.

MD

Mule Deer...It is obvious that there are a lot of OK binocs out there, and some are better than others, but I am like a lot of guys. If I were to add up all the money I spent on binocs over the years that I thought were "good glass" I could have bought a real pair long ago. I finally sprung for some Lieca Ultravids this last spring, and it was worth every cent. They were much better than my Pentax DCF WP's that always get rave reviews.

Don't you think that a lot of glass is simply a stepping stone to getting to what you really want? It seems like the only thing that cheap optics do is push you into the good stuff eventually at twice the price. I guess if someone doesn't live out west you cannot really appreciate what good glass is like. I cannot imagine sitting behind a $200 pair of binocs for 3 hours glassing a canyon for mulies. But for guys that live back east they would be ok. Seems like a bino review should be based on what they are used for. I use my cheap $120 Pentax UCF's when I am in a tree stand. And they are perfect for looking through the trees.

You might try listing the B&L porros again right here in this thread. What is the field of view, weight, and how does their resolution compare to others currently available? Of course, price and a pic would be nice too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Mule Deer, I very much enjoy your articles on optics, and have made several purchases made upon your recommendations - most recently a Nikon 8X32 lx (refurbs from cameraland for under $480!) I'm slowly converting from the 10X binos but slowly and surely am seeing the positives that outweigh the higher power glasses. - Thanks again and keep the articles and books comming!

John
I broke the bridge or yoke not sure what to call the part that holds the ocular lens on my old 7x35 B&L"s. Do you know of a Bino service where I could get them repaired or a bino model I could steal a part from.
B&L just ignores my requests for info.
-Doc-

John, I have a hard time finding bino's that work well with glasses. The best I've seen are the current U.S. Army issue. They are a dream to use with glasses on. Don't know who makes them or if theres a civilian version or the cost. What would you reccomend as the best value that really works well with glasses? Ease of use & eye relief with glasses is more important to me than the absolute best glass. Thanks for replying.

Dogcatcher--

A lot of glass is a stepping stone. As for the East vs. West thing, I have hunted a lot in many places (east/weat/noth/south/other continents) and have always found good glass better than poor glass.

That aside, I have hunted turkeys in the southeast a lot. This is where even really cheap glass, as small as can be made, works better than the human eye. You're only taking quick looks at fairly close stuff.

But anywhere really serious glassing is required, the very best glass is the best option. Whether you can afford it is another, more personal question. But I do think it is a big mistake to buy $100 binoculars and spend $1000 on a riflescope. You can kill 95% of the world's big game with a reliable $100 scope (and there are some that would be reliable on a .30-06, especially used scopes), but sometimes you would not find that game with a $100 binocular. You might have the binocular go bust in the process as well.

MD

Dakota Deer--

Actually, I've decided to keep them. They're still the best glass in my extensive collection for hunting in really dim light!

MD

XXBob--

Sorry, but the only old-binocular repair guy I knew died.

Anybody else?

MD

mes228--

I wear glasses myself, but have no difficulty using almost any modern binocular with adjustable eyecups. You must have a very long distance from your eyes to your glasses. About all I can advise for modern glass is to check out the specs of all the optics websites available and look for the longest eye relief listed.

I don't know who makes the current army issue, or where to get them. You might also try some sources of used binoculars, as very often these have no eyecups at all. The B&L Zephyrs are a good example. Top-notch glass, and can be sometimes found at a very good price.

MD

B&L sold the Zephyrs with two sets of eyecups, one shorter for eyeglass wearers. They retained this feature for the first year or so of production in Japan then switched to the despicable fold-down eyecups. If you can find a used set with both eyecups, the shorter ones work really well and the regular ones are satisfactory for eyeglass use.

"Optics for the Hunter" should arrive at my casa next week. I'm looking forward to a good read. Great article at the Campfire MD.

Threadkiller2

xxbob, I saw an ad in Successful Hunter for binocular repair. I will post if I can find it.

JB, The Army uses Stiener Mariners and a Fuginon model that is similar. They have a mil reticle in them for range estimation and the flexible fold down eye cups. I think they are 7x40.

The ad from successful hunter is...

Herb Koehler, binocular technician 50 years, 847 362-7757, liberty, IL

Mule Deer
Of what is available for binoculars now, what would you recommend for carrying in a vehicle for looking at deer in dim light. One of my favorite pastimes is riding around the Bridgers and the Crazies from now till fall looking at bucks, and usually the biggest bucks come out last. I don't need something really light, as they won't be carried.
Also, I looked at some Katmai 6 power binoculars at Bob Wards this spring. I think a person would spot more game with those than any other glass I have looked through. When they were focused, nearly everything from the end of the parking lot to the Story Hills was in focus. That depth of field, combined with the huge field of view brings a lot of area into view.
What was really surprising to me was how little difference in detail I could see between the 6 X Katmai and a top of the line 10 X nikon when I was looking at the Story Hills about 3 miles away. I am sure that if both optics were on a rock solid rest, the 10xs would prove superior, but hand held, there was damn little difference.
How was your spring bear hunting?

Royce

Mule Deer,

Thanks for your article and willingness to answer these questions:

1. You have a vast array of binos to pick for your big game hunting needs. Now which of those is your "go to " pair the one you reach for almost instinctively. If this is not your Duovid - then why not.

2. One day they will have all the features in one but if you had the choice of the Geovid 8 x 42 or the Duovid 8+12 which would you choose (or even the Ultravid 8 x 42)? This for general big game hunting.

Your reasoning for your decisions would be much appreciated too.

Thanks & regards,
JohnT

Royce--

If given the choice of ANY binocular on the market for your purpose, I probably would buy the Zeiss 20x60 stablized binocular--but I doubt you want to spend that much.

A lot of power with an adequate objective helps a lot here. Of the glass in my own collection, I would go to the Minox 15x56 (I seem to remember it is a 56, might be a 60), which is a reasonably priced glass with enough zap to look at those big bucks even in really dim light, and quite a ways away.

Bear hunt was fun, but I did not shoot a bear.

MD

JohnT--

I either grab the Duovid or, if I don't anticipate needing that much glass, a good 8x32, these days usually the Nikon Premier LXL, though there are a bunch of good 8x32's on the market right now. I believe the Nikon is the best price for the optics, however.

If I were to pick an all-around fixed glass it would be either an 8x42 or 10x42. Both have advantages, the 8x having a larger "sweet spot" and exit pupil, which makes it a little more comfortable to glass with over long periods. 10x is a little better in open country, but not much.

Before I got the Duovid, I used to reach for either an 8x42 Pentax DCF WP or a Swarovski 8.5x42 EL. The choice depended on how rugged the hunt was, and where I was traveling. I felt better beating the snot out of the Pentax, or risking it in foreign lands. Probably used the Pentax more than the Swarovski, as a matter of fact, before finally giving it to my PH in Botswana a couple of years ago. It was still going strong after 4-5 years of hard use.

Lately I have been using the Swift 8.5x44 Aududon roof-prism a lot (they also make a Porro model). It seems to have 95%+ of the Swarovski's optics at 20% of the price.

Truth is, we have so much good glass these days it is hard to make a bad choice.

MD

Was the Kahles 8X32 in the test ? How did they do ? I am trying to chose between them and the Katmais. I hunt wooded mountain regions only.

Wow! Now the truth comes out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />. You are keeping a pair of porros for the serious work. That's what I like to hear <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />. And are you really saying that you think these are as good as it gets for low light work? Better than all current roofs?

By the way, are these Bausch&Lomb Elites that we are talking about here? And were they only made in 8x50, and/or was that the only really great model of them?

This is somewhat off topic, but I hope not too far...

Myself and a few other people I know use a spotting scope mounted on a rig similar to a rifle stock (rigs vary) quite a bit these days. I only use my binocs in really low light situations or sometimes when scanning large areas off-hand for long periods. I wouldn't ever say the spotting scope rig is a substitute for good binocs, but after two seasons using it I find that I am using it a lot more than I do my binocs. I rely on my naked eyes a lot to spot game, so once I've got it spotted I'd rather take a really close look with the spotter than a pretty close look with the binocs; however, I'm not hunting mountain peak to mountain peak (mostly just flat country with some areas having breaks and canyons), thus I might not be able to get away with relying on just my eyes so much if that was the case? But to me, the detail that can be obtained is invaluable and can proove to be just that when you're trying to be (having to be) really careful about the age and size of the animal you are hunting.

I guess in all that blabber I am just curious to know:

Do you use a spotting scope much, and if so, have you ever used a rifle stock like rig instead of a tripod, etc.? I've never hunted in the west, but if I did I would surely bring my spotting scope rig as I think it could be very useful.

(Oh, my binocs are a pair of 20ish year old Swarv 7x40's that my dad passed down to me a few seasons ago, and my spotting scope is the B&L Elite 15-45x60 which I have been really pleased with.)

Muledeer,

Thanks for the top article ,
in it you highly reccomend the nikon 8x32 LXL , what is the difference between these and the nikon 8x32 LX ?

I have not tested the latest Kahles binoculars. They just were upgraded so am getting a sample. They would probably be a step up from the Katmais, but exactly how much of a step is the question--especially when compared to cost.

The problem here is that new and upgraded binoculars appear all the time.

MD

Dakota Deer--

I kept the 8x50 B&L's because they have 50mm objectives, which makes them more effective in dim light. I don't think there is much difference in overall performance between top roof prisms and Porros. The big difference in performance is in lower-priced binoculars, and even there the difference is shrinking.

I can't recall whether the B&L Elite Porros were made in other models, but if there was an 8x50 there was almost certainly a 10x50.

MD

Woodrow--

For very serious glassing at long range, I always carry a spotting scope along with a binocular. Generally the scope is in my daypack, along with a compact (but stable) tripod. Generally I use it to look at game already found with the binoculars, but then I am usually sitting and glassing a long time from one sport, often with 10x or 12x binoculars. The scope is used to evaluate antlers or horns on animals that are often a mile away.

I have used a scope on a shoulder stock a few times. It beats hand-holding a scope, but at the distances I'm glassing is not nearly as good as a steady tripod. (I do use a camera with telephoto lens mounted on a shoulder stock to take wildlife photos quite a bit, but then again that is a close-range game, 100 yards or less.)

MD

bung1--

The LXL is just the latest version, a little lighter than the LX, which seems to be the trend in optics these days.

MD

Thanks for this & all your great articles.

What are the real differences in the new SLC's. I am trying to decide if the new ones are worth $400.00 more than a reconditioned used pair of SLC's. 10X42 Thanks

John, back in 1997 I wrote to you asking your opinion on some new Swarovski 7x42 SLC or the same in B&L Elites.
I still have the letter you sent back and still have the Swarovski's
Since then I'm sure some other models have gotten better and some brands have improved, but I couldn't be happer with the one's you helped me choose.
I'm sure I'll never have to replace them.

SHW--

I haven't seen the new SLC's yet, but the latest generation was so good that I doubt you'll see much difference than those.

How much improved they would be over an older, reconditioned unit would depend a lot on the age of the reconditioned unit! Some of the very early SLC's were by no means prize-winners in brightness.

MD

jbmi--

Glad they worked out for you! As I noted earlier here, I still have my original 7x30 SLC's (no longer available) and am not about to get rid of them anytime soon.

MD

John,
Great article!!! Thanks..
You write so incredibly clearly!!!!
Don

Thanks! That's the best compliment I've had in a long time....

MD

Where do the Pentax DCF SP 8x43 rate? My older Pentax bino's were an incredible value. Now that they've been upgraded, are they that much better?

John. I have a question that may not be related but is a best buy question. My Friend is looking for a pair of Binos for his Daughter that is just starting to hunt. What would you recommend as the 3 best 10-8power 30-42mm binos under the 200$ mark if there is such a thing. I know someone has to make a pair under 200$ that is better than others.

JBabcock--

The newer Pentaxes aren't that much better optically (though there is some difference) but are lighter, and have much tougher lens coatings.

Whether all that is valuable to you is another question. If you are satisfied with the older ones, I'd stick with 'em.

MD

schmalts--

To be honest, I haven't kept up on the lower-price binoculats like I used to. But I have been impressed with Nikon for long time in this price range. Look at their Porro-prism models under $200 and I believe you will find a winner.

MD

Why not? Many of your readers may not be willing or able to shell out the big bucks for luxury class binoculars, but they would still like to know what would be the best product for the money they do have to spend. Indeed, it's in lower priced glass that the old adage "you get what you pay for" often falls flat on its face.

It's easy to tell someone they'll never go wrong with any of the $1,000+ binoculars, but that doesn't do the guy who only has a few hundred dollars to spare one bit of good.

You obviously did not read the article, or if so, did not comprehend it. Go back and read it again, slowly. There are several binoculars listed that sell for the person who "only has a few hundred doillars to spend."

I do not review many binoculars costing under about $250 because there is only so much time in a day, a week, a month and a year. I not only wrote about optics, but rifles, shotguns, hunting, etc.

The lower-priced binoculars change in a hurry, mostly because somebody is always out to find a cheaper place to have them made. In the past decade that place has changed from Japan to Korea to Thailand to China to..... It goes on an on, and every time it changes, I am supposed to look at every cheap binocular on the market? Give me a break.

The truth is that about any of the full-size Porro prism binoculars of about 8x42 costing around $100, give or take $50, are OK for the purpose. Their purpose is to provide an OK to people who can't afford anything more--or refuse to pay for it.

Eventually the same people will break the cheap binocular, or upgrade. If they use it much, it will generally break/fog/misalign within a year or so. Then they will either buy another $100 binocular (at which point the same model is no longer being made, because of the reasons explained above). Or they realize they would be better off upgrading. Whether they buy a $250 or $2000 binocular at that point is immaterial, because either in a decent roof-prism will last a lot longer than the $100 Porro model they just wore out. And that is the reason I mostly review binoculars from $250 up.

MD

Good answer.

MD- I saw that you evaluated the Weaver Grand Slams. I compared these to a couple others in the same price range, and found them to be brighter and clearer that the others, so I bought 'em. Could you give me a little more indepth review of what you thought. Thanks--Mike p.s. great article

John,

Have you done or do you plan to do a review of spotting scopes? Now that you've sent me down the right path in binoculars, I need a new spotter to go with them. I would love a spotter on par with my Nikon 8X32 LX's in the same price range - thanks.

boomerboy--

That's pretty much what we all thought too. Thw Swifts are very comparable to them, but the Weavers came out just a trifle better in the tests--and they cost a trifle more as well.

MD

In about the same price range I really like the Minox 62mm ED--or at least it was in about the same price range when I got mine. Don't know about now! But a very, very nice scope for a decent price.

Will probably not be doing a spotting scope comparison here, as Rick has decided one article is all he can afford for the foreseeable future.

MD

Enjoyed both this article and the one in rifle, MD

I have just been down the road on a search for a new spotting scope. The best source of information I found to be the birdwatching clan. They tend to be at least as picky as shooters about optics. If you do a search you can find birdwatching forums that discuss optics, including comparisons. No real need for Mule Deer to reinvent that wheel.

Paul

Yeah, the birders talk about spotting scopes like we talk about custom rifles. Thanks, Paul!

MD

Glad I could be of service. Here's another tip, courtesy of the birdwatchers. Don't waste your money spending $150-200 on a name brand logo soft case for a high-end scope. Some folks have had things like zippers fail, and you run the risk of announcing to thieves that you have an expensive scope. Instead, go to Creedmoor Sports and order one of their soft scope cases. $35 and they will custom fit for many brands. I just ordered one for my Zeiss spotter.

Paul

That is also very good advice. I know for a fact that one of the MAJOR European makers gets all their ancillary products made as cheaply as possible, so are mostly charging you an arm and leg for Chinese cases, tripods, etc. that just happen to have the company logo somewhere.

Unless I know the optics company's stuff is good, I often buy tripods and other stuff from a specialist in the accessory I want.

MD

Another ANTI EURO campaign?

The expensive but first class quality Zeiss and Swarovski tripods are made by Manfrotto Italy, which for sure is a "first address" in camera and spotting scopes tripods.
Leica does not sell tripods.

RD

Can you give some advice about some good straps and/or harnesses to use with binoculars? I just purchased the Swift Audubon 8.5x44 which "only" weight 25 oz. but, even with their wide strap, are too uncomfortable to wear around my neck. Even though many people are not bothered by the weight, some of us are.

Several companies offer straps made of strech fabric that not only god over both shoulders, but keep the binocular from bouncing around on your chest. I know Burris and Leupold both offer such an accessory, but no doubt it can be found in many camera stores as well.

MD

Hi everyone,
Just registered and really enjoy this forum. I was hoping to get some opinions on the following binoculars. Mule Deer, I've valued your opinion for a long time and would appreciate your thoughts here.

Can anyone tell me what they know about Smith&Wesson's Performance optics 10X42's?
I know that S&W discontinued their optics line. Can someone give me a point of reference as to what these would be comparable to?

Also, what do folks have to say about Remington Premier 8X42 and 10X42 binoculars?
I know these two brands are not the usual heavy hitting names that seem to populate the discussions. However, their pricing may be a valuable selling point to someone like myself.

Lastly, where would the following binoculars rank in order if you had to put them in one. (Low light performance...not weight is the most important criteria for me personally)
Please let me know why you rank each one the way you do...thanks a lot!!!

Leuplod Wind River Pinnicles 8X42

Bushnell Legend 8X42

Swift 8.5x44 HCF Audubon (Roofs)

B&L Discoverer Porros 8X42

{If anyone would care to throw the Remingtons or Smith and Wessons in the list, that would be great too!!}

I am looking forward to seeing what everyone has to say.

Great article, and pleased that my previous choice made the cut. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BTW, there is a slight editorial/typographical glitch on page 2 of the article, third paragraph: it reads "So my wife and dragged out every binocular in the house..."

There needs to be an 'I' after the word 'and', before the word 'dragged'.

Cheers, and forgive me my neurotic affliction. Damn English degree; it's a curse I tell you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Years ago, on a closeout, I bought a pair of Zeiss Dialyt 6x42B rubber armoured binocs. I got them for using on small boats, my thinking was 6x would be easier to get a steady image while on the water. They are wonderful glass.

A few years back I decided to use them while hunting from a treestand in NY and found they are perfect for NE woods hunting in every respect, except size. They were fine once I got into the tree but a bit large to comfortably wear around the neck while still hunting or stalking.

I seem to remember that Minox was going to introduce a pair of 6x32 glasses this year, have you had a chance to use them? I tried their 62mm spotting scope on your recommendation and am very pleased with them.

Regards,
Recoil Rob

MD, Any experience with our local favorite--the Brunton?? BTW, they've finally broken ground on their new facility, but work seems to have ground to a halt again.

Rob, I just picked up a deal from Minox on their 6.5x32's. Please see the other thread on those with special pricing for members

Georgia--

Have never seen the S&W or Remington glasses.

Would probably rate the Leupold and Swift a little ahead of the two others, though they are all much of the same class and could vary some in individual examples. (Yes, there are manufacturing variations in individual optics....)

MD

Steve--

I have tested the top-line Brunton. While it is a good glass, it is vastly over-priced. It would compete OK in the under-$500 range, but not where Brunton priced it.

MD

RecoilRob--

Got to look through a 6.5x Minox at the SHOT Show. Like most Minox products, it appeared to be a very good glass for the money.

MD

John,

No question. Just want to say thanks for doing this and all of your generous advice given on this forum.

You're welcome!

MD,
Same here (Thank you!)
I have a pair of Bushnell Discoverer Roofs (7X42) on the way. I'll try to post some impressions when they get uncased during the Bow Opener down here on Sept. 10th.

Anyone have a pair of these already? What are your thoughts on them?

Off topic question for Mule Deer.

Have you measured the new Federal "Fusion" bullet on a Juenke meter to see if "plating" the jacket on the pressure formed lead core helps concentricity?

Haven't received any Fusion bullets to test.

MD

John,
No question either, just a thank you for your contributions at the Campfire, and for a wonderfully informative and well written book. I'm reading it slowly (good excuse for my shortcoming <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) and absorbing as much information as I can the first time. The book will be re-read over and over.

Jason

MD, when selecting binoculars for use with glasses, how much eye relief is needed? Thanks in advance. Dave

Geez, this gets into a whole can of worms--but I believe the more eye relief the better.

The actual eye relief needed for various spectacle-wearers varies greatly, partly just because of the way noses vary. Some are comfortable with 10mm, others need 20mm. I would say 15mm (a little over half an inch) would be a good minimum.

I wear glasses myself and it's been a while since I found a binocular that didn't have enough eye relief. This may be, however, because I have a short Norwegian nose. But in general binocular eye relief has become such a non-issue with most people that some catalogs don't even list eye relief anymore.
If you have a hard time obtaining the right eye relief, one thing to look for aside from relatively long eye relief
is click-adjustable screw-in (rather than slide-adjustable, "in-or-out") eyepieces. The click/screw eyepieces stay in place much better, which is handy when the ideal eye relief for YOU is neither all the way in or out.

On the other hand, binoculars with longer eye relief (which seems to be the trend) are often most comfortable even with the eyecups all the way out, even for glasses wearers. This was just what happened with me when "field-testing" a new Kahles 8x42 in the Northwest Territories last week. With the eyecups all the way in they were too close--and they did not have click/twist cups. But I also found that I could glass comfortably with the slide-type eyecups all the way out, with only a very slight loss of field of view.

MD

do you have any thoughts on the steiner predator 8x42?

are they worth the admission price of $750-ish?

i can't find a sample to review of these, nor are the weavers available locally, so i'd have to mail-order (on blind faith)... thanks for some input here.

In that price range I'm more impressed with the latest Kahles 8x42--which I just got to review, too late for this article. I suspect the Kalhes would have made it as one of the "best buys."

MD

Mule Deer, I really do not get the Swarovski / Kahles arrangement. The Kahles prices are so close to the Swarovski AV line that they really seem to be redundant. What gives here?

I believe that much of the time Swarovski does not get the Swarovski/Kahles arrangement.

As I understand it, Swarovski is the majority stockholder in Kahles. When this first happened, Swarovski made much of the connection, but as time went on more and more customers started looking on Kahles as a "cheaper" Swarovski line--which is not the case, as they are separate companies with separate manufacturing facilities.

Consequently, for the past few years the powers that be have been trying to separate the brand-images. Kahles sets its own prices, and also does much of its own product development. Though I would guess that you'll never see Kahles scopes cost MORE than Swarovskis, as long as Swarovski still has controlling ownership of the company.

The top management of Swarovski (and thus Kahles) in North America was shaken up recently, so we may see some other changes soon.

MD

muledeer , a little bit off the subject , but i was wondering if you have had a chance to try a new kahles CL multizero scope yet , i really like the concept so have ordered a 3-9x42 with a 4a reticle , so i was just wondering what were your thoughts on them . thanks .

John, can you elaborate on the Leupold Gold Ring binos? Quality and value? I've ordered a pair of 8x40. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Doug Hoyne

I really like the Kahles multi-zero scope, and have used them quite a bit. The longer eye relief over previous Kahless scopes is also much appreciated.

MD

I have exactly the same binocular, and the optics are very good, well worth the $1000 price in today's market. The mechanics all seem very solid as well.

The only problem, if it is that, is that it's a little heavier than many other binoculars of the same magnification/objective. For serious glassing I tend to prefer a little heavier binocular myself, however, as it helps to steady things down which makes the view sharper.

They are definitely not, however, a binocular to pick just for wearing around your neck while taking occasional glances at the world. They are for serious glassing, where you sit down and pick apart the landscape.

MD

In the testing of the available binoculars what could I expect in a optical difference between the Swift 8.5x44 and the Pentax DCF SP 8x43? I wonder how the Swift 8.5x44 ED version would compare in optical quality? I like roof prism bino's and the looks of the Pentax, although, I would go for a high quality porro prism if it had higher contrast and helps me observe those antler points better.

The Pentax is a little better optically, but not much. The ED Swift would no doubt be right in there as well, though I wouldn't judge it against the Pentax until I could place them side by side.

One of the points I often make is that the difference in optical quality between good binoculars and the very best binoculars isn't as great as it used to be. In fact, some of the $300 binoculars made today are optically as good as anything made 25 years ago. So very often we are really picking nits.

The other side of binoculars is mechanics. How do they feel? How well do the eyecups and diopter adjustment work? I am willing to sacrifice a little optical quality for reliability, such as focus adjustments that stay put, or eyecups that can be click-adjusted just so.

As pointed out in the article, I have hunted with just about all the binoculars listed, and never felt handicapped with any. Of course, I used some in circumstances particularly well-suited to their size, such as using the Bushnell 8x32 for timber hunting, where I never glassed more than half a mile.

All of which is a long-winded way of saying that because of the slight (though discernible) differences between the Swift and the Pentax, I think either would be a good choice, depending in your budget. Yes, more money can still buy you more in optics, but a $1500 Swarovski is not 5x better optically than a $300 Swift. Similarly, a $600 Pentax does not buy you twice the optics of a $300 Swift.

Did all that help, or just muddy the waters?

MD

As I read Mule Deer's article here and re-read the binoculars chapters of "Optics for the Hunter", I was struck by how much my recent experience bears him out.

I recently bought a wonderful pair of Rochester made B&L Zephyrs, 7X35, out of nostalgia for the Japanese ones I had decades ago. These have the extra shorter eyecups for compatibility with eyeglasses. In his book, Mule Deer states that before the days of CAD, the best companies, Zeiss and B&L, for example, maintained the laboratories and research that assured their products were top-level. He is right. The Zephyrs are instruments created by craftsmen. They are lightweight and excellent optically. They may be vulnerable to hard wear as they are porro prisms, but against that all their parts are metal and precisely fitted.

I had replaced the Japanese Zephyrs with Swarovski SLC's when they first came out. The SLC's were the first top end roof prisms with sliding eyecups. I still have the second pair I bought in 1998. Mule Deer says in his book that now the top companies lavish their best design and coatings on roof prism binoculars and he is correct.

The SLC's are optically excellent but heavy. I just sent them in to the repair center after the plastic diopter dial broke. They came back as new, refurbished with new armor and all the additional features that have been added to the SLC's. They are a more rugged design than the Zephyrs, but I wonder about the synthetic parts in a really rugged environment. I don't know for sure, because I am not up to really rugged environments myself.

I don't carry the SLC's here in Pennsylvania, because they are so heavy. When I hunted from a stand in Michigan, they were just fine.

I recently bought a pair of Eagle Optics Platinum Ranger 6X32 binoculars at about a third the price of the SLC's. They are as light as the Zephyrs, very compact and well built and my eyes, encumbered by spectacles, have real trouble discerning much difference in optical performance between them and the SLC's. Mule Deer states in his book that lower power for a given objective improves the image quality and the 6X power would help the optical performance. They are just the think for hunting in the deep woods where I live now and they are light enough that I will carry them.

The birdwatchers in their forums do discern differences in chromatic aberration and image quality at the edges. They can discern problems with the top end binoculars, all of them, that I can't. A thread on the Platinum Rangers suggests that, for this money, the roof prism you get is not quite as rugged, that thick lubricant aids the water proofing and the smoothness of the diopter adjustment. and this lubricant will thicken as the temperature falls and make adjustment difficults. The birders put their binoculars in refrigerators and freezers to find out these things. I don't think this means a lot to me.

I would say the optical performance of the roof prisms is about equal and a bit superior to the Zephyrs. The roof prisms are more compact and rugged, but have some vulnerabilities in extreme environments. Mule
Deer's central thesis, in his book and in the article, that modern CAD design allows companies to design and specify binoculars to a certain group of factories in Japan (the birders can name them) that perform as well optically as the best European binoculars at a fraction of the price is absolutely correct.

I have read that one top end supplier of roof prism binoculars still uses machined metal parts internally which should perform well in really rugged and extreme environments. I will never know.

Mule Deer is right. You can buy $300 optics that equal the performance of $1200 optics for most purposes. I would say from my experience with the SLC's that the warranty and service support do matter over a lifetime.

Cheers,

I hear ya. My buddy and I are going to get my Bushnell 8x32 legend vs. his Nikon LX 8x32 and see if the Nikon's are twice as good. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This idea that $600 aren't twice as good as $300 is a bit misleading.

In most things a point is reached where doubling your money may only bring 10% increase in performance, indeed, as the price gets higher you have to spend more money proportionately for ever smaller increases in performance.

Just remember, that last 5%, although it may be expensive, may mean the difference between success and failure, you may see that elk in trees at dusk, 800yds away.


Rob

RecoilRob, your post is spot-on. Great explanation.

Mr. Barsness, could you elaborate a little on your evaluation of the Leupold Gold Ring binos? The few reviews I've been able to dig up seem to show widely varying opinions of this glass. I'm lusting after a pair of 8x42's, and haven't yet had the chance to handle them........thanks for any info.

Dan C

The Gold Rings I have seen (and I own one) are very fine optically, perhaps just the tiniest bit behind Leica, Zeiss, Nikon, etc. well worth the $995 list price on rtoday's market.

The "downside" is that the 8x42 is a little heavier than many others made today. Some of the other makers have 8x42's down to 27 ounces or so, and the Leupold is a few ounces heavier. I put "downside" in quotes because for some hunting a little heavier binocular is something of an advantage, as it helps us hold the thing steady, making the view a little sharper. For serious glassing I actually prefer a somewhat heavier binocular.

These also feel very good in my hands, but that is often an individual thing. The mechanics also feel very solid, with none of the sloppy, plastic feel of some of the adjustments on some lighter-weight binoculars.

MD

John, I know there are dozens of good binoculars on the market these days and you cant test them all. By any chance have you seen the new Kowa's? Some sort of super duper coating that makes them better at transmitting colors. I compared my 8X30 SLC WB's to 8X42 Kowa's without the upgraded coating and the SLC's didn't show too well in the comparison. I see Kowa now has an 8X32 with the new coating and thought these might be a good deal at $400. Any thoughts on Kowa binos? Ward

Haven't seen the Kowa's (just made a note to look at them at the SHOT Show though) but if they're as good as their spotting scopes, then they are very good indeed.

MD

one more question, mule deer... how do the cabela's alaskan guide brand binoculars stand up in their price range?

Pretty well. I haven't tested any for a few years, but when they got the idea of importing their own line of glass, they also had the brains to ask an optics consultant to test them in order to make sure they matched up well with the current market. That they do, both binoculars and scopes.

MD

thank you.
binos are coming this way in the very near future - i'm narrowed down to the bushnell legends, pentax sp's, and cabela's ag's... appreciate your responses.

SP's would be head and shoulders above the other 2 you mentioned in my opnion.

MD, have you ever had a chance to look through the big Minox glass, the 15x58 specifically?

How do they compare with the Swarovki and Zeiss 15x60's?


Thanks, Rob

I own the Minox 15x58. Optics very comparable to Swarovski, not quite up to Zeiss--but close enough that I don't care!

MD

John:

So you rate the discontinued Zeiss 15x60 porros higher than the new Swaro 15x56 SLC and the Minox 15x58 right there with the Swaro?

This could hurt.

Rick

That would be my picking order. They are all very fine glass, but it is still hard for even the best roof prisms to be as sharp as top porros.

MD

Thank you, John.

Minox is definitely turning some heads around here lately.

Rick

I have been buying the optics for our SCI Chapter's fund raiser. I used to take advantage of the Swarovski NA offer to SCI Chapters, and get a couple of good glasses (usually a scope and a binocular) for about $2,000. This time around I briefed the Auction Committee on the Minox glass and Doug's Special Deal. The concensus was to buy a "triple combo" and a second 15X bino (we have desert hunters here in San Diego). This way we get four great optics for our $2K.

I expect to order some for personal use after the Chapter order arrives and I get to handle the glass. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

jim

So you're they guy Doug said bought the last two 15's. Arrgghh!

Use them well. (g)

Regards,
Rob

Yup, Doug told me they were gone, gone, gone.

Rick

Rob,

Yup I did slide in and capture them. It was really kind of funny. I took webpages printed from the Minox website to the Auction Committee meeting on Tuesday night. Our SCI Chapter fundraiser is the largest such sportsmen and women event in San Diego, and we pretty much start planning next year the week after the current event. This one is in Febraury, and we expect some 600 to attend. We run a live auction, a silent auction and a lot of drawings and special games.

Anyway I figured that I would do my pitch for the three bino package, and the Committee would agree to two -- the 6.5 and the 9.5. They fooled me and agreed that the "three banger" was a great deal, and then one of the desert hunters interjected that we should get a second 15X glass as well.

jim

The only way I know how to hunt the desert side of the Laguna Mtns in San Diego Co is with a good glass and of course good legs. Say Hi to Bill and Ingrid for me.
-Doc-

Doc,

I will do so when they are back from hunting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Neither Bill nor Ingrid are much for the Internet. If you PM me with a name I will add that too...jim

How about the Sightron binoculars. Any comments on them? Thank you for a great article.

Good stuff, as far as I know. I have an 8x42 in my pickup as my go-everywhere model, as it is good but affordably replaceable. It has been there for several years, over bumps and cold and hot (and two pickups) and it is still in perfecrt collimation.

That said, it is several years old and I have not seen the latest Sightrons.

MD

Well John, After two years of looking through glass and reading lots of optic "stuff", I laid out $450 for the Pentax DCF SP 10x43. Thanks. I am really impressed with the quality and will be testing shortly on an elk hunt. Now I can spend the money saved on a scope, and a pair of boots!

I think that all it would take to change the binocular market would be for some big-name outdoor writer to write an article in a major sporting magazine giving an honest and direct comparision of the optics of available Porro binoculars with roofs. I've handled and owned dozens of pairs of binos in my hunting and birdwatching lives, including many of the elite glasses like the Zeiss classic 7x42 and 10x40s, the Zeiss Victory II 10x40s, the Swarovski 8x42 ELs and many others. I've sold off all my other glass and now use Nikon porros--the E2s in 8x30 and the Superior E's in 10x42. I do almost all my hunting with the 8x30s, and I can't imagine a better glass. Light, comfortable, fast focus, a tack-sharp image over a bright, 450' field of view, better color correction than any roof prism glass, and they can be found for under $300. They also feel like quality, with smooth, precise controls, and rugged construction. How on earth can you beat that? The porro design is intrinsically superior--their only shortcomings are that they don't look cool and they don't cost enough. The superior Es cost more like $700 discounted, but IMO have no equal optically.

If someone would get the word out on these things, they would be doing the hunting public a big favor.

Anyone ever make an IF binoc in the 8x40-50 range?


Thanks, Rob

I have written about the Nikon porros before, a number of times. It doesn't seem to affect sales at all!

MD

Oh, but I meant a really Big Name outdoor writer.




(sorry, it was just irresistable--I treasure my copy of Shotguns for Wingshooting).

As secrets go, the Nikon porros are pretty well-kept. I wouldn't trade mine straight up for any other binoculars I can think of, except to sell them, buy another pair of Nikons and pocket the difference.

Hello John,
I saw you got my email. Thought id ask here as well.Ive never seen Fujinon CD binoculars mentioned in any hunting articles. I have a pair and like them alot. I dont have ur exsperiance but was wondering if you have ever seen them or looked though them. If so ur opionion. Thanks

I have looked through Fujinons more than once or twice. They are good glass, but no better than some others in the same price range.

I generally don't comment on them much because getting writer samples is like pulling teeth (even though Fuji attends the SHOT Show) and I really like to use binocular longer than it takes to look at the ceiling beams in the ceiling of the Las Vegas Convention Center before recommending them to readers.

MD

John,
Do you have any inside info on future offerings in rangefinding binos? The Leicas are the only ones I really like so far, but I am looking for something a bit lighter weight, around 24 ounces, in an 8 power (8x32?). Not too sure whether I like the Wind Rivers, and I definitely don't think much of the Bushnells. What's coming down the pike?

Not much. Next to the Leica, the Burris unit has the best rangefinder. In a recent test in hard conditions (bright sun on pronghorns) I got consistent readings beyond 600 yards. But the entire binocular is indeed bulky and fairly heavy, and the binoculr optics aren't all that hot.

The Leupold's optics are pretty good, but many people want more than 8x32. And in my test model I couldn't get readings on antelope in sunlight beyond 350 yards--which is about where you really start needing a rangefinder.

Swarovski dropped the ball again, by bringing out yet another monocular. They just don't get rangefinders, apparently.

All of which is why most people either buy the Leica bino-rangefinder, or just a good rangefinder.

MD

Perhaps the Brunton line of binnoculars has already been discussed, if so I missed it. If not what is your opinion? I have a pair of 8x43's and I do like them but the best thing is their unconditional lifetime guarentee against anything except theft or loss. Anyway I would value your opinion if you care to respond.
Thank You

TTT

Thanks for the response. I agree without a valid test its hard to comment. Youd think Fujinon would be more forthcoming in haveing there product used and commented on. Again thank you.

I went on a search for the benos you suggested and checked several out . Isettled on a set of weaver grand slams 8.5x45 they are really nice as I am a weaver fan on scopes as well. the best part gander mountain had a last pair on sale for $299.00 they are a lot more now ... thank's john... Hubert <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hubert--

Glad they pleased you--I have been pleased with mine! Good luck hunting with 'em....

MD

Natchez had the Weavers and Remingtons on closeout sale for $100. They both came from the same factory and are a helluva value I think. A tad heavy though.
-Doc-

John,

I picked up a pair of Pentax 8X42 DCF WP a couple of years ago for about $241 after a $100 mail in rebate and have been very happy with them. My first roof prism and center focus. I thought the old I.F. Gold Ring Leupolds I had were good until I purchased these. Are the new 8X43 Pentax much better then the 8x42 DCF WP?

Also, what do you think of the 15X80 Stieners for a hunting/spotting binocular? How do they compare in price and quality to the Zeiss 15X60s?

Thanks for your reply, 2Seventy

John,
I own two pairs of old Leitz binoculars, one 7x35 & the other is a 10x40. I've been told they are pre-Leica??? I like them a lot, but am really interested in your expert opinion of them. I've never had the oportunity to really compare them against any of the really high-dollar brands, so ...are they really as good as I think they are? Just wanted to hear the true story on these. kg

2Seventy--

The 8x43 DCP SP's are only slightly better optically than the 8x42 DCF WP's. The big changes are in lighter weight, plus much harder lens coatings on the SP's.

I haven't looked through a 15x80 Steiner for a long time. Back then I was underwhelmed--but they have been making some good changes lately in other parts of their line. They also keep saying they're going to send me some new binoculars to test, but they never show up! So I cannot say.

For the price, the 15x binoc that have seemed the best deal to me in recnet years is the Minox 15x58--which is the reason I own one.

MD

Kg--

The Leitz binoculars you have are good, and were pretty much state of the art when made.

But they lack several technical advances of present-day binoculars. If you looked through some of the new ones, I believe you'd be impressed. In fact, I'd bet serious money that some of the $400-$600 binoculars made today will beat them optically.

MD

John,

Have any of the better makers ever made an IF binoc in the 8x40-50 range? I have a pair of Nikon 8x30 DIF's that have served well for 20 years but am looking to uprade and I prefer IF's. The best I can find is Zeiss 8x30's but would like a bigger exit pupil.


Thanks, Rob

Thanks for the quick reply, John. I have always wondered about the actual quality of these binoculars. I guess it's time to check out some of the newer ones! Thanks again for the fast reply!!! kg

I'm sure somebody has, but nothing new comes to mind offhand. Pentax used to make a spectacular "naval" 10x50 IF but suspect it is long discontinued.

MD

When I left active duty in the Navy the standard binocular was still the 7X50 IF, and all I used were Bausch & Lomb. If I run into any active duty sources I will enquire as to what is in use today.

jim

I talked to Pentax today and they said they discontinued IF's a couple of years ago. The 7x50PIF's are still around but they may not be the same quality as the ones you spoke of, retail was under $200.

The other model was a 10x50PIF.


Thanks, Rob

Hi John, if this question is redundant please ignore. I looked at the article and list of answers and did not see any information on the Pentax DCF 8 x 32. Have you used these? Any comments? JimmyP

no Burris binocs mentioned anywhere????? just not worth a darn????

I have a pair of Burris 10x50 Signatures. They are OK I bought them about 7 years ago through Cabela's. New ones are about $400, I think for that kind of money you can get a better binocular with sharper resolution like Minox or Pentax.
I keep the Burris binocs up at the office and they are good enough for that, but since I have become used to better ones, I wouldn' t use them again for something important like hunting.

I wish I had an office that big.

Well I have a binoc question but it is on a different style of binoc than those covered here,,,,,

I need a small pair to carry during rifle season here in the east,,,,longest range I would be using them would be 200-300 yards,,,mostly under 200. The main reason I need them is to identify a small buck from a doe. I hunt with low mag. scopes and it's to hard to tell at 5x with some brush and leaves on the bushes. I have a cheap pair of bushnell 8x that work ok for me,,,,they really do, I know they are cheap but no more than I use them they work well. I wanted to get a pair of 10x compacts for a little more magnification,,,I know that in the article compacts and 10x were warned against because of low light transmission,,,

butttt is there a pair than anyone can recomend my porpose,,,might use them 5-6 times a day for a few moments when hunting,,,,mostly to check out already located deer or to see what another hunter is up to a couple of ridges over.

I was thinking of these,,,

http://www.natchezss.com/category.cfm?co...FTOKEN=38528640

any sugestions will be appreciated,,,,,

Jimmy-

The Pentax 8x32 is a good binocular, but not quite as good relative to price as the 8x42 and 10x42.

MD

PPosey--

Though I mentioned the 8x32 Signatures, but could have been in another article. These are about the smallest and lightest 8x32's on the market and durprisingly good, considering the compromises that must be made when "downsizing" in optics. I have used them a lot the past couple of years and like them quite a bit.

Burris is upgrading their entire binocular line. I will be reporting on these in the near future in my column in RIFLE magazine.

MD

Thanks I'll keep my eyes open...........

Can anyone tell me what or why everyone seems to stay away from 10X binos? I have a pair of Minota's 10X42 and absolutely love them. I'm looking for a pair of binos for my son for X-mas and want to keep the $$ around or under $300. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I can just give you my reason,

They're neither fish nor fowl. 10x's are little too powerful for me to handhold well, 8x's are easier. 8x's will also be brighter with all else being equal.

They're not powerful enough to warrant putting on a tripod, 15x's are better for that.

Just my reasons. I had a pair of Zeiss 10x42's from Cabela's, got a great deal, $650.

I realized that, for me at least, I'm better served by 8x's, which I am saving up for. Wish Leica made 8x42IF's. So I sold the Zeiss to a birder.

I have Zeiss 6x42's for marine use, Minox 6.5's which are going to be my go to's this year in the northeast woods, I got a set of the Minox 15's for my AZ trip in Feb.

Add my Minox 62ED scope for packing and my Zeiss 85 scope for the range, spying on the neighbors and everything else, and I should be good when I get the 8x's.

Oops, forgot to mention the Zeiss 8x20's for pocket use and the Nikon 8x30DIF's which my first pair of decent glass, still have them and use them in the truck, indestructible but optically not quite up to par with the Minox.

There are two other pair of mini 8x20's in various glove compartments.

Did I mention I like glass?

Help me, please.

Regards,
Recoil Rob

Obviously you like glass. And you're way out of my range w/$$$$ amount to spend. Nonetheless, what make are you saving for? And by the way, I just bought my son a pair of Nikon 10X42 TRT Monarch ATB's. I'm sure he'll love'em.
But thanks for your input just the same. And happy glassing!

I don't have a immediate need for the 8x's but I suspect I'll try out Zeiss & Leica, maybe some others.

I probably went about this backwards, getting all the ancillary glasses first when the 8x's should be the core of any arsenal. But I bought them all at great prices when they came around, I imagine I'll do the same for the 8x's when the time comes.

What type of hunting will your son be using the 10x's for?

Rob

Only one mention of Kowa binos. The Old Man has one of their spotting scopes and it's a tremendous piece of equipment. Any chance their new binos will find their way into your hands, Mr. B? I'd be interested to hear from you to see what you think of them. I agree that if they're as good as the spotting scopes they'll be nice. And that's what I'd like to know.

C'mon John, what are you doing with all those extra hours in the day when you're not living the globetrotting hunting writer's life...having a life?

Mule Deer:

Weaver GS 8.5X45 vs Swift Audubon 8.5X44 ED

How does the Weaver GS stack up in the low light conditions and ergonomics VS the Swift Audubon? I have read the Swift Audubon ED is very nice glass.

Thanks


Hogjaws

Hogjaws is me name, eatin is me game!

What's your opinion on 42mm vs 32mm objectives in 8x? Do you lose much by going to the lighter and more compact 32mm? Or are still OK if you keep a 4mm exit pupil.

Hogjaws--

I would rate the Aeaver slightly better than the Swift, though the difference isn't much.

MD

BCSteve--

I've compared 8x32 and 8x42 binoculars of the same make and model a number of times under hunting conditions, and find that no matter how well-made the 8x32's you lose at least 5 minutes of good viewing light at the either end of the day.

That said, with really good 8x32's that 5 minutes is usually outside of legal shooting hours.

MD

Brother, you said a mouthful there... that's my experience exactly and why I use "just" a leica 8x32.

I use Zeiss B/GAF 8x30s and Leica Trinovid 10x42s and really cannot see any use in B.C. hunting for the bulkier and heavier binos with larger objectives. I also found these and my old Zeiss 8x30Bs totally satisfactory on several fire lookouts and a Canadian Coast Guard Lightstation.


Actually, if I were to buy another bino, I would prefer a 7 power for any hunting I do here in B.C. I have spotted Elk, Moose, Sheep and Goats at ranges close to three miles with this power and it is easier on my elderly eyes. YMMV.

Kute, I've been clamoring for a Leica 7x32 or 35 roof bin for a long time... I doubt they're listening.

Kutenay and Brad--

I would be happy with a 7x myself, but 7's don't sell worth a darn anymore. In fact, I have been informed by more than one binocular manfacturer that 10x leads the sales list, no matter the size of the binocular.

The last top optics company to market a 7x in this class was Swarovski, which made a run of 7x30 SLC's maybe a decade ago. They asked several writers what they thought of the idea. I said I would prefer the 7x30 to the 8x30, but they probably wouldn't sell very many. I believe some other writers said the same thing.

Swarovski went ahead with the 7x30's and sold, oh, maybe 6 of 'em. No, I exaggerate, but they simply did not sell enough to make any money.

Of course, a couple of years ago the Swarovski guy who asked me my notions on the project made some crack about "those damned 7x30 SLC's you were so hot on." One rule of corporate survival: cover your own backside. (Didn't help him, though, as he was recently let go. Evidently he made other, more serious mistakes.)

I still have my 7x30 SLC's, and ain't giving them up....

MD

John, LOL, I'm one of the other five that had a pair of 7x30 SLC's... great little bin's but couldn't justify them and the 8x32 Leica's I've got.

As an aside, apparently Zeiss has a 7x32 FL prototype made which has been discussed a bit on various birding forums. I'm not convinced Zeiss has the mfg and design bugs out of the FL's, and the 42mm versions are darn big, but I hear the FL glass (and prisims) are wonderful.

What's your take on the FL'S?

MD -
Does the information provided on binos equate to spotting scopes as well? I am in the market and am unsure which way to turn. Several years ago I toyed with the idea of a 20-60x but think now that something in the 15-45 might be better. I have also been considering some of the Leupold "compact" models. Perhaps an article on spotting scopes similar to your bino article? Any in"sight" or advice?

I still have an old pair of Swarovski porro prism 7X42 bino that I have had so long I forget where I got them. Probably Cabelas.

They sit in the kitchen for looking at birds in the backyard. Their size is not a drawback for that job.

jim

I've got it pretty well narrowed down to 5 choices for myself.

Pentax 10x42 DCF SP
Minox BD 10x42
Kahles 10x42
Kowa BD42 10x42
Steiner Merlin 10x42

Any thoughts? Perhaps I would be better with the 8x42 versions of the above?

Brad--

As with rifles, I have too darn many binoculars!

So far I have been very impressed with the FL optics, but Zeiss never lets me keep them long enough to really field-test them, so don't know about the mechanics/ruggedness.

MD

pale rider--

Generally people buy more spotting scope than they need as well. In my experience, for hunting use anything over about 40-45x is wasted, at least with standard scopes using 60-65mm objectives. (Anything bigger gets very diffcult to haul around, unless you hire a Sherpa.)

At X's much over 40, either the exit pupil is so small that the view is incredibly dim (at dawn and dusk, when a lot of hunting use takes place, and air is at its stillest) or midday "mirage" wipes out the image.

But optics companies are in the business of selling optics, thus providing what people want, not what they need. Too, many spotting scopes are used to look at the night sky, where more X's are practical.

The Leupolds are good spotters. My favoriteis the mirror 15-40x, the boxy one. I know an awful lot of professional guides who use it as well. Its portable, with plenty of eye relief, and the power range is just right.

MD

Big--

All those listed are good glass. There nits to be picked over whether 8x42 or 10x42 is better, but in the real world there ain't much difference. If you like 10x, go for it. It's a little more useful in open country.

You might also look at the new Cabela's 10x42 EURO. These are made in the Czech Republic, by a company that is becoming widely known inside the industry as top-notch. My recently arrived sample is very fine optically, and also has the feel of solidly put-together machinery. Price is $799.

MD

Are you referring to the Golden Ring 12-40x60, which look like their "tactical" line of spotters?

LOL, not a bad thing, but my 15 year old just got out of braces and my 13 year old is getting into them so I can only "store" so much stuff!

Regarding the FL's, I've heard probably half a dozen horror stories related to mechanical problems. No one has faulted the glass, which is apparently as good as it gets. Guess time will tell but Leica still comes out at the top of the heap for me all things taken into consideration.

I had one for years and it served me well but optically the Minox 62ED outperformed it so I sold it and kept the Minox.
It did have great eye relief though.
Rob

pale--

That's the one. I have a hard time remembering the lower X, but not the upper.

MD

Brad--

I feel your pain! Wait until they get to college....

I tend to agree with you about Leicas, which are built stout. I have also heard some not-so-good stories about the Swarovski EL's. It appears as though they may have tried to make them too light, though I have never had any trouble with the two I've put to hard use.

MD

Rob--

I have both the Minox 62ED and the Leupold (and a few other spotters). I would call the Minox slightly better optically, but the long eye relief of the Leupold works more comfortably for long and serious glassing, especially for somebody who wears glasses. Both are very fine scopes.

MD

Here are some interesting binocular tests:

www.alula.fi/GB/index.htm click on "Published reviews of optics"!

www.kikkertspesialisten.no on the left side click on "Kikkerter" With one exception these test's are in Norwegian, but you can easily print out the test from 1999 (in English) and see what the different test parameters means in English. It's not difficult at all! Max points are 12 in the newer tests(10 in the older test)

Mule Deer have you ever tested Steiner Nighthunter binoculars? Steiner are now selling some Special Edition 8x30,7x50 and 8x56 to a much lower price than the usual XP models. SE models do not have those big eyecups, and no memory oculars ,except for that, they are identical.

Have tested no Steiners recently. They keep saying they're going to send me some to look at, but never do. From the little I have been able to fool with them (mostly at SHOT) they seem better than they used to be.

MD

Mule Deer,

How do the Docter binos compare to say, Zeiss Classics, Kahles, Minox BD or Swarovski SLCs? I read an old review on Betterviewdesired by S. Ingraham, and he gave them a fairly good review and stated that although these binoculars are not bright, they are very good in low light conditions.

Have you had a chance to check these binos out?

Hogjaws

Hogjaws

Have only seen a few Docter riflescopes, and no binocs, so can't say. They don't seem to have a good distribution system in the U.S.

MD

Depending on models, Docter roof binos are quite comparable with Minox asph. and Kahles. In a test for my magazine I rated two 10x42 Kahles and 10x42 Docter almost in the same class, with a slight edge to the Docter. Their Porros are heavy and by far not as bright as Zeiss, though, but good in resolution and acceptable in contrast and color.
RD

Mule Deer,
Maybe you can help me make a decision. I've pretty much decided on the Bushnell Legend after reading you article an some reviews. The problem now is which one. I like the compactness and lighter weight (23oz) of the 8X32 but I've never used anything bellow 42mm before and I'm worried about low light condition (maybe it's all in my head). So maybe I should go with the 8X42, even though they are heavier (30oz). Well if i'm going to go to the full size maybe the 10X42 that weights the same as the 8X42 with 2x more. I'm all confused?!? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I know it's also a personal choice but would appreciate your opinion. What would be your pick for hunting binos for BC.

Thanks,

BCSteve

Probably the 8x42. You do give up a few minutes of light at the beginning and end of the day with the 8x32, and the 8x42 provides the biggest exit pupil.

MD

First, thank you for the "Best Buys in Binoculars" article and others you have written, they have been most helpful in getting quality equipment.

John, of the various makes of binoculars you've tested, which brands consistently do well with eye glass wearers?

Thank you,

I wear glasses myself and haven't had any problems with any that I can recall.

MD

Thanks, John.

Supplemental question: Have you had any experience with Celestron's Regal LS 8x42 or 10x42 binoculars? If so, how would these rate?

Thanks again.

Sorry, have had no experience with Celestron.

MD

I want to get my 15 yr old a decent pair of bino's for Christmas. Something in the $300--$350 range. I trust the Leupold brand and I'm looking at the Katmai or the Pinnacle models in 8x, but I'm not sure which way to go. I see that you gave the Katmai a good review but I'm thinking that he might be better off with a larger, heavier binocular. What about the Pinnacle? I've been to the Leupold website but all the talk of L coatings and silver tippings just confuses the hell out of me. Just looking for a shove in the right direction as I'm not able to do a side by side comparrison. Thanks.

The Katmais are good, but your instincts are right: For a single all-around binoculars a full-size is the way to go. The Pinnacle is a good deal.

MD

I fondled a pair of the Katmais last weekend and was pretty impressed. They are a light, compact glass for their optics and their ergonomics suited me well. I'm intrigued with the 6x32 version for sneaking about the swamp thickets.

Quick question, I am looking at the Leica Trinovid BN 10x42 and the Swarovski SLC 10x42...which is a better quality optic that wont give me any problems...I read that you had an issue with the Swarovski's and the eye pieces coming off.

These are going to be used for hunting in all kinds of terrain here in Alberta, from mountains to the prairies and freezing cold to hot conditions.

Any input?

Thanks,
Rob

The last SLC I tested had an eyepiece come off when a friend (another well-known optics writer) attempted to adjust it. Unless they have changed things, the SLC eyepieces are held on by one small pin. Swarovski makes marvelous optics, but in general I have found some of their products to be somewhat delicate under hard use--or even not-so-hard use.

Leicas seem to be tougher, and of equal optical quality, the reason I tend to prefer their binoculars.

MD

Thanks for the reply....can you tell me if there is much of a difference between the Leica Trinovid and the Ultravid? Is it worth the extra money to upgrade to the Ultravid?

The Ultravid is the latest technology. They don't get any better at this time--though the Trinovids are still very fine glass.

MD

JB what do you think of the new Ziess binos compared to the Lieca's. My old 10x42's have sure taken a beating and just keep on ticking.
-Doc-

The new Zeisses are superb optically, but they haven't been on the market long enough to tell how well they're going to hold up in the long run.

My personal opinion is that too many companies have been jumping on the lightweight bandwagon lately, trying so hard to make binoculars lighter and lighter that they sometimes compromises both utility (it is easier to glass with heavier binoculars) and ruggedness.

MD

John, excellent article. I just registered here and have a few questions about optics. I have resisted buying expensive binoculars because I wear perscripion glasses and don't know if I will truly get the benefit of the more expensive glass.

When I use binoculars I always want to take my glasses off due the field of view being smaller with glasses on. Then I have trouble focusing the eye piece sufficiently to adjust for my "weak eye sight". The result is that I never really have things in focus and I constantly want to adjust the focus for clarity. Do expensive binoculars work better? Or do I just have to get used to the smaller field of view with my glasses on? Am I just using the cheap binoculars and just have never experienced good optics? Any info would be helpful. Not going to spend $500+ just to find out I have the same problem.

Mr. Barsness,

I'm new to this forum, in fact joined it specifically so that I might ask you a binocular selection question.

I hunt National Forest land in south west Mississippi. Mostly, I hunt fairly heavy cover with my shots typically being 40 - 80 yards, with the occasional open spot in the woods where I might see a shootable buck at ~ 120 yards. It is typically quite brushsy without a lot of reflected light at dusk which is when I believe I need the binoculars most.

I find it a bit of a challenge to use binoculars in this setting. I've yet to see a deer with them that I did not first see with my naked eye - probably a failing on my knowledge of how to best use them.

However, I'd like to upgrade from the Steiner 8x30 Military/Marine binocular that I currently use. I'm pretty well settled on 8X magnification and looking at the Pentax DCF SP 8x32, 8x43 or the new DCF XP 8x33.

Do you think, for my application, that I'd benefit enough from the 8x43 to make it worth the additional size, weight & price?

If you think the 8x32 or 8x33 would fit my needs, have you had the opportunity to look through the new DCF XP 8x33 to see how it compares optically to the DCF SP 8X32?

Your thoughts/opinion on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Mr Barsness,
I have asked this question on this site elsewhere but due to your workload I am sure this is the best way to get your opinion.
Binocular, either the Pentax SP 8x43 or 10x43.
How I will use them:
Hunt in North Ga. in the woods and open valleys. In spring will use them to spot what few ground hogs we have. I tend to stalk hunt for deer, but some stand hunting. May use them for birdwatching and such. Ihave been told that the 8x will be easier on the eyes all else being equal?
I thought the 8x43 for the best of brightness and sufficient magnification. What is your opinion please sir. The weight between the 33's and 43's is mayber 3 ounces.
Also what about the refurbed LX's in the same size. The money may force me to the Pentax's.
Your posts are great and followed with great anticipation!
WHOOPS, just read your "LOOK LONG" article and you answered my questions exactly. It will be the DCF 8x43 for me!
Many thanks for your many enlightening articles! Many of us use you knowledge to avoid makeing costly mistakes we cannot afford to make!
Thanks many time again!
Greg Harrison

gldprimr--

There's a definite difference in the 8x43's in regard to the other binoculars you mention. Not only will they be noticeably brighter in dim light, but sharper as well. I would go with the 8x43.

MD

gldprimer,
It is amazing that you and I are looking at the same binos and have very similar questions. After a lot of research and reading Mr. Barsness' articles the 8x43 Pentax DCF is my choice. Hard to beat for the money, and I hunt in some of the same situations as you, the 10x is probably too much. Reading his article Look Long will tell you how he thinks about binos.
FYIW
Greg Harrison

Mule Deer

Do you have any experiance with the new Swarovski SLC?
I believe they have the same glass as the EL`s but are better/tougher constructed?

many thanks Dave

Have not yet been able to test a new SLC, but sincerely doubt they have the same glass as the EL's. In my experience neither is super-tough.

MD

I just bought a pair of Leica Trinovid 10x50 binos and am waiting for them to arrive in the mail from Doug on here...my question is how are these going to compare to say a 8x42 pair? I was looking on the leica site and the twilight number was higher for this pair so I take that means that they are better in low light conditions. I will be using them for a variaty of conditions from mountians to the bald prairies here in Alberta and Sask. hunting elk to pronghorn were counting those points is very important as we have minimum point requirements in zones.

Was this a bad choice for a power of bino? I use to have a pair of 10x25 Swarovskis and liked the power but the light gathering was the issue.

I've got an 8X42, and have played with others. Since your 10X has a 50mm objective that gives you the about same exit pupil size of the 8X42. The extra magnification would put you that much closer to the target, so you should be able to see a little better than you can with the 8X42. However, there reaches a point where the eye needs to open to a 6mm or even a 7mm pupil size to be able to see in bad light. When that happens both your binos will stop working. I've never had that happen to me during twilight hours. Has to be at least an hour after sundown even under the worst conditions.
I've got a 10X25 Zeiss. I believe you'll find your new 10X50's will be a big improvement over your 10X25's. They are heavier and have a much larger exit pupil which means they will hold steadier and the image should be a touch sharper. The big difference will be that the image won't strain your eyes so much to see fine detail. Used from a solid rest, they should do the job well. E

In comparison the 8x42 have a 5.25mm exit pupil, 18.3 twilight factor and the 10x50 have a 5mm exit pupil, 22.36 twilight factor.

My thoughts are that they should be about the same except the magnification.

Am I wrong in thinking that?

Hi John:

I really enjoy your columns in Rifle and Handloader, etc.

I purchased a Pentax 8x43 SP two years ago and am very impressed with the optical performance. However.... the image appears to have a slight yellowish tint (Zeiss/Leica/etc. seem to be crystal clear). Also, one of the things that attracted me to these glasses was the magnesium frame (I like tough!), but I am paying a price in weight around the weight.

Overall, they are a GREAT value!!

Keep up the good writing. Happy hunting. I envy you living in Montana; I worked summers in Montana and Idaho 40+ years ago (trailcrew and smokejumper) and always wished I stayed (no jobs for economists though).

Thanks again,
DJS

My new SP's are clear and the weight is about the same as most others in its size class. What you said, great value!
gregH

djs--

I hadn't noticed the yellowish tint on the Pentaxes. It might be due to the glass, but also might be due to your eyes. I have heard from various folks in the optics industry that men tend to see more toward the warm (yellow-orange) side the spectrum, and women toward the cool (blue) side.

For a while several of the top optics companies were shading their glass one way or another. Swarovski was famous for its storng yellow bias in the earlier SLC's, which they claimed made it easier to spot game. But lately more binocular manufacturers have been striving for more neutral color, mostly due to the influence of the bird-watching market. Birders demand truer colors, for purposes of identification.

MD

I have always noticed my right eye sees warm and my left eye sees cool. My opthamologist says it's not common but not abnormal.

Rob

Hi Mule Deer,
I was wondering if you have had a chance to try the Cabela's Alakan Guide series of binoculars and what you think of them? Thanks!

Yes, I have, and they are pretty darn good. Even better is the new Cabela's Euro Binocular, a 10x42 made by Meopta. A great deal!

MD

Thanks for the reply Mule Deer, I really appreciate it!! GO STEELERS!!

John,

I live and hunt in New Hamshire where we don't have much open country. I currently use Eagle Optics Denali's 7X32 roof prism bino that suit me realitvely well for my hunting situations in the northeast. My question is this, I'm planning on several hunts out west and in Alaska within the next 5 years and want to get a good set of binoculars. I've decided on the Pentax SP's - I'd prefer the 8X43's so they could serve double duty (NH and elsewhere) but am concerned that they may not be enough glass for western hunting? In your experience is the 8X enough glass for elk and Alaskan hunting?

Any insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Yeah, 8x is enough for western and Alaskan hunting.

You might go with 10x, however, just to have a real performance difference. I think you might also find the 10x good in NH once you get used to it as well.

MD

Thanks Mule Deer.

MD,

Enjoyed your article as usual. Quick question. How does the new Bushnell Elite 8x43, Leupold Golden Ring 8x42, and Kahles 8x42 binos compare to the Leica Trinovid and Ultravid 8x42 and the Nikon Premier 8x42? I have a pair of Wind River Olympics 10x50 and am looking for a smaller pair with top notch optics. Thanks for any input as your opinion is very valuble.

buckstop

Good question.

I just sent in a column to RIFLE on great binocular buys at $1000 or less, and the Bushnell Elite, Leupold Golden Ring and Kahles were on the list. I did the column because the price of some new binoculars is pushing $2000 now!

All have optics just a tiny notch below those of the Leica Ultravid, Nikon Premier, Swarovski EL and Zeiss FL. (Here I am talking about glasses with 42-43mm objectives. 32mm objectives change things somewhat.) I would rate the older Leica Trinovids slightly behind these.

Two other glasses I suggested in my piece were the 8x32 Nikon Premier LXL (which still retails for under $1000) and the Cabela's 10x42 Euro, made by Meopta.

For your specific needs I would suggest either the 8x32 Nikon Premier LXL ($900), 8x43 Bushnell Elite ($950) or Kahles 8x42 ($750). All three of these are noticeably smaller and lighter than the Leupold and Cabela's glass.

Leupold is coming out with an 8x32 and 10x32 in the Golden Ring series this year. The 8x32 might also be a good one for your purposes, but I haven't had a chance to really test one yet.

MD

MD,

Thanks for the information. It is exactly what I was looking for. This article and thread is by far the best on the net that I have found. I look forward to getting the issue of RIFLE with that article in it.

buckstop

MD,

My question has to do with resolution, and lense diameter.

With a scope or binoculars I hear many people stop thier process of analysis at the exit eye beam size. i.e. if the front end divided by the magnification is more than 4 or 6 mm they're content.

What I'd like to know is does the diameter of the lenses being passed through change the amount of resolution or clarity you get. And on that front how does it effect depth of focus.

With my old Nikon SLR how much of the lense (apeture) I used changed the depth of focus. For a narrow depth of focus I'd use the whole lense which contained more of the curved surface and put everything, near and far out of focus. If I cut down the apeture to the center of the lense then just about everything was in focus.

So my question is - ... Is both clarity and depth of focus affected by the glass diameters?

I like carrying small binos for tree stand hunting, but I'm having issues with carrying a large pair for elk. I'm trying to decide if I should keep with a larger lense to gain resolution & depth of field OR should I stay with the small ones.

Thanks
Spot

In general, the bigger the diameter of the objective lens the better the resolution. This is because most of the "stray" light entering any optic is caused by liught refracting around the edge of the objective lens. Bigger lenses have less edge-per-surface.

This has nothing to do with depth of field. Stopping down the aperture setting in your camera lens creates greater depth of field by shutting off all but the light rays in the center of the lens. This is something entirely apart from lens function.

Binoculars don't have apertures, so a 10x25 binocular has the same depth of field as a 10x50--but you'll get a sharper view through the 10x50, and a brighter view in dim light, both of which help in hunting.

MD

MD,
I am looking forward to your column comming out in Rifle on binoculars under $1000. In regards to binoculars under $500 did you see the Burris Signature Select 8x42's at the Shot Show? If you did, what is your opinion of them? How do they compare to Leupold Pinnacles and Pentax SP's?

MD,

Wow, Cool... I didn't know that.



Thanks,
Mike aka Spot

Yes, I did see the new Burris Signature Select, and was most impressed. I won't be able to state exactly where they stand until I get my test sample and can compare them side-by-side with other binoculars, but as of now I suspect they are among the absolute tops in their price range.

MD

MD,
Did you see the Minox BD 8.5x42 BR asph. and the Minox BD 7x42 BR asph. at the Shot Show. How do these compare with the Kahles, Leupold Golden Rings & Bushnell Elites? Are they in that class or are they more in line with the Pentax SP's? Do the 7x42's have better resolution than the 8.5x42's?

Yes, I saw them, but again at SHOT there is no chance to place binoculars side-by-side for serious testing. I can only say that I've had excellent luck with Minox glass for many years, and that in general you'll get better resolution from slightly lower-power binoculars than higher-power glass with the same objective diameter.

MD

I visited the Minox booth too, and looked through these binocs and talked to the factory staffer about them. He allowed as how their design concept was to be a percent or two behind the big guys (European houses) in technical performance while bringing the glass to market for several hundred Euros less, i.e. cost/benefit ratio should be very high.

About all you can do in these great exhibit halls is look into the furthest corner of the roof, or down an aisle if one is visible.

jim

Hey,

I was just wondering if you have tried the Carson XM binoculars as I am considering a pair of these in 10x50?

They seem to get good reviews on the birding sites, but I'd appreciate a hunters opinion more on this. Thanks.

Have not tried the Carsons, but if they get good ratings from the birders they are probably darn good.

MD

Hi Mule Deer,I live and hunt mostly in PA. I want to hunt with some vintage rifles with either low power scopes or receiver or tang sights. Due to the point restrictions we have it makes me a little nervous without some better optics. I would want something light with fairly decent optics as I like to still hunt but also hunt from a stand. Have you tried the Leupold Wind River Katmai's 8X32's and what do you think of them? Any other binocular opinions in the similar price range would be appreciated! Thanks!

The Katmai's are pretty good, but I'd look at at least a 42mm objective for better viewing in dim light. In that price range the Bushnell Legend, Swift Audubon (roof prism) and Weaver Grand Slam are all good buys. The last two offer 8.5x, a slight step up from 8x which helps a little more when trying to count tines.

MD

Thanks for the advice Mule Deer. I really appreciate it!

Hi Mule Deer, I was looking around and found a good price on a Leupold Wind River Pinnacle 8X42. Do you think this would be a better choice? Thanks !

MrB. I bring you back to your comment from July '05


Did you get a hold of them at the SHOT Show? How were they? Or do I have to wait to read about them in an upcoming magazine article?

Wiktor--

For your purposes I believe the 8x42 Pinnacle would be better than the the 8x32 Katmai. The Pinnacle is a darn good binocular.

MD

Big--

Sorry, I never did get to the Kowa booth. In fact, due to an extraordinary number of meetings I didn't get to see as many products as I usually do at SHOT.

MD

Thanks again Mule Deer! I'll be going with the Pinnacles then!

Rick says the Minox binoculars are pretty good. How is the new minox BD 8 x 42 binocular relative to the Pentax 8 x 42 DCF SP? I have the 8 x 42 DCP SP Pentax and am thinking about another binocular for my home set (one for the truck and hunting, the other to birdwatch!) Thanks JimmyP

Have not had a chance to compare them side-by-side, but have always found both brands to give full value (or a little better) for the dollar.

MD

That SHOT show must be absolutely incredible.

I'll have to associate myself with my buddy the rifle builder that goes every year just to get in and see it. And help him negotiate dealer contacts, of course. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

MD,
Is anyone making a medium priced , good quality 7x50 glass, I have an old cheap 7x50 and tried them from the aircraft to see if they will work as a search & rescue tool, FOV seems about right and at 7 power I could see ground pretty good even with a little turbulence. my 10x40 Zeiss classics are just too much of a good thing for this use.


Thanks,
Mel

Mel--

Let me do some checking and get back to you. Or maybe somebody out there has a suggestion?

MD

Mel & MD,

I would start with whatever the Coast Guard is using for Search and Rescue. I think I last read that they are using a stabilized binocular.

I have a Lot of time behind the B&L 7X50 on ships, but I never had occasion to try airborne work.

jim

Jim,

Stabilized would be great , I just haven't seen any medium priced. These will be used only to check out an object of interest spotted from search altitude to save having to go down and then climb back up. I think the Costies use night vision and who knows what else. In Alaska the CAP does a lot of the searching and the Coast Guard, the AK Air Guard or sometimes the State Troppers do the rescue part. Just need something to save a little fuel and time
Thanks,
Mel

Perhaps the Fujinon FMTR-SX 7x50 kan be something for you?
When I compare my Fujinon to my Zeiss 8x42FL I would say they are even!! Perhaps the Fujinon is a little better in Twilight. You can get the Fujinon for 600$ or less, and the Zeiss cost about 1500$!!

You can find a test at www.holgermerlitz.de/miyauchi7x50.html This is a test of the FMT and not the rubber armed FMTR model which I'am recommending.

Checked out the Fujinon it has a very good writeup, I wonder if the only difference between the FMTR-SX and the FXT is the rubber armor? I found them both at Binuculars Etc. on a Google search, the FMTR-SX is listed as you said at $599.99, however the FXT is listed at only $249.99 the writeup was on the FXT, also found some Nikon's for around $150.00. Would like to see some coment from Mule Deer . I'm guessing you pretty much get what you pay for . A 7X50 B&L would sure be a nice thing to have! Thanks

Mel

The FMtT and FMTR are the same except for the rubber armor.
Do you mean FMT when writing FXT?
www.eagleoptics.com has the FMTR for $569 and FMT for $528 . I think $249.99 is not for the same model.
Perhaps you can find a second hand Fuji?
The only drawbacks I can find are; they are big and heavy( and so are all other 7x50's!) and they have Indivdiual Focusing,.I.F: makes the binocuolar even more waterproof.

You're right two different models, glad I didn't jump the gun and order. I was hoping for something in the 3-400.00 area, but then I hate to get one that's no better then the old JC Penny glass I have.Have to give it some thought , In the mean time maybe MD will have some input. Thank's again,

Mel

Check out the Pentax SP line (8X42). They are very high quality and sell on line for the mid $400's. For a few bucks less, consider the SP 8X32. They are lighter and have almost the same light gathering ability.

I've got and use Fuji Polaris FMTR's despite their poundage. My brother-in-law has 7x50 Swarovski SL's. I prefer the Fuji's, but certainly consider the Swaro's at the top of the food chain too.
In the 3-400 dollar range you should be able to pick up the Polaris' used in new shape. Just make sure you are getting the right model. Lots of confusion between the lower grade fuji's.
The main difference with the old 7x50's and the new is the multicoatings and in some cases the grade of glass. I've Fuji Meibo 8x40's that are great binoculars for their time, but not up to speed with today's top of the line. If they were fogproof and waterproof they would be up to speed with the $300-500 roofs available. I'd be sure to get the ones with the newer, bigger ocular lenses. Usually the ones with the yellow highlights on the oculars.
Got to compare a load of top end binoculars over a harbor and marina a while back and was amazed at the ability of top end binoculars to render whites, blacks, and color with a rich creamy look that lower end glass can't do. I thoght the porro prisms gave a deeper, richer view based on the design differences between porros and roofs.
Swaro makes 7x42 SL's which are significantly smaller and I have not seen any of the E. German Surplus 7x40's that are supposed to be from Zeiss to comment on them. Sure would like to though.
From a chopper I'd lean hard to the stabilized binoculars.
God bless you for doing search and rescue. It is a great example civic duty.
Good luck.

Thanks guys, looks like the Fuji Polaris Is the one I need, so guess I'll bite the bullet and start shopping. The stabilized glass would be great but the standard 7x50 seems to be about right any more power or smaller objective doesn't seem to do it, I've tried my 10x40 Zeiss but it's too hard to hold. It's not like glassing for game just used to check what may be something on the ground you see with the naked eye. I do have and use a Canon stabilized digital camera and it's amazing how well it works . Again thanks to all.

Mel

oldblue, I see where doug has just posted Nikon 12x32 stabileyes on his demo list for $499. Might be just what the dr. ordered from the chopper.
I keep telling myself my next spotting scope is going to be a pair of stabilized binoculars but haven't stepped up to the plate to buy any as of yet.

Anybody got any feedback on the Nikon Stabileyes??? Seems they may be the answer. Wish we had a chopper (they are more stable in turbulentence then fixed wing, from what I hear at least.), we fly mostly Cessna's 172, 182, 185, 206, and Beavers. Thanks again for all the input.

Mel

None from me. I have used the 14x40 Fuji's and they are great. Looks like Nikon's 14x40's are probably coming out of the same factory. I did see that Canon just introduced a 10x42 waterproof, fogproof stabilized binocular. Looks like it is in that $1000 dollar price range.
Good luck!

Mule Deer, do you know whether the Burris 8X32 Signatures are phase-corrected? I see on the Burris website that the full-sized Signature Select are, but they do not state whether the 8X32 Signatures are.

If they don't say they are, they aren't.

MD

Hi MD,

Good article in the latest article in Rifle on $1000 binocs (and the one on this website BTW). I'm in the market for binocs but can't quite go the $1000+ route because: A. I don't know enough about high end optics; B. There must exist a lower price alternative that does 90% of what the Leica's and Swaro's do; C. I'm cheap.

Using an analagy, I'm looking for the Kimber Montana of the binoc world, not the Jarrett custom.

In addition, you seem to like an 8x32,40,42 power glass over the 10x42. Why?

I'm currently thinking 10x42 and am looking at the Celestron Regal LX, Audubon Equinox HP and Swift 930. Any thoughts/suggestions on binocs in the $3-500 range?

Thank you for taking the time to respond to this and similar threads. It must be a PITA at times but you offer good advice backed by your own practical testing which I find very useful. Thanks for taking the time.

-- BW

Thanks MuleDeer, I was going to buy the Leupold Katmai's but you suggested the 8X42 Pinnacles might be a better choice. I purchased the Pinnacles a few weeks ago and, espescially for the money, am very happy with them.

MD,

In general do you feel that extra weight and price of 8x50 binocs are worth the upgrade from 8x40's?

I'm not asking for a brand comparison, but let's say within brands, e.g. Leica's 8x40 vs 8x50 or such.



Thanks, Rob

Not usually, especially in the better makes. But in the low to medium-priced binoculars there can be a difference.

And binoculars in general are getting lighter these days. At the moment I am testing a new 10x50 Burris that is very good optically--and very light for it's size. Haven't weighed it yet, but my educated hands guess it well under 30 ounces.

MD

According to at least one site, the entire Burris Signature lineup (both full-size and semi-compact) is phase-corrected. Then again, some sites don't mention it, which would indicate no. Check around a bit and see what you can find.

If the 8x32 Signature is phase coated, then that's one heck of a bargain at not much over $200 if you shop around.

The 8X32 Signature is not phase-corrected. I emailed Burris and they replied saying so. The Signature Select 8X32 will be phase-corrected when it comes out.

BMR,
Did they say when that Signature Select 8x32 will be coming out?

In Customer Service's words, "Probably not until February 2007."

bwinters--

Sorry, I missed your post for some reason.

Am not familiar with the Celestron, but am familiar with the Swift Audubon series. They are very fine glass for the money, in fact they rival some much more expensive binoculars. Other very good binoculars in that price are the Weaver Grand Slams and the new Burris Signature Selects. (I have been testing the 10x50 and it is great. Got to look at the other sizes in the SS line at SHOT and they seem comparable.)

I generally suggest 8x for all-around binoculars (whether 8x 30, 32, 40, or 42) for two reasons:

With 30-32mm objectives, it is MUCH harder to build a good 10x than a good 8x. The only 10x32's I can whole-heartedly endorse are the really expensive ones, and only a few of those, such as Leica and Zeiss, and the Nikon porros.

There are, however, some decent 8x32's in the lower price ranges, such as the Burris Signature, Bushnell Legend, and Leupold Katmai. And there are several good to excellent 8x30's or 8x32's available for more money.

In the 40-42mm size, I find that most people are more comfortable glassing with 8x than 10x for extended periods. I believe this is because of the larger exit pupil in the 8x glasses, which allows our eyes more freedom to roam around "inside" the binocular, rather than being locked straight ahead as our eyes are when using glass with smaller exit pupils. This is just a big a factor in long-term eye comfort during glassing.

There's also the fact that 8x binoculars provide a slightly larger "sweet spot" than do 10x glasses. This is because the "macula," the small area in the back of the eye that provides the sharpest vision, is in effect slightly larger with 8x glasses than with 10x glasses, allowing us to find tiny objects just a little easier.

This is not a slam against 10x binoculars. I use them all the time (and often even more magnification) in really big country. But too many people automatically buy 10x binoculars for all-around use, even when the objective lenses are too small for really good resolution at 10x--or when 10x is less comfortable for long-term glassing. I see 10x binoculars as better for some specific purposes, but 8x as better for all-around use.

MD

MD - Have you ever done a "study" on monoculars. I'm thinking of a quality glass, 6 or 7 ( or 6Xwhatever variable, w/35 or 40 objective, if there is such a thing) for a quick one-handed look while still-hunting. Would save me a lot of time and extra movement to identify movement I've caught as to whether flick of an ear, bird, or whatever.

I looked at the link the guy put up here for the comparison, and I believe it was Brunton who had a 7X40 that had a focus that appeared easy to use one-handed for a quick look.

MD - thanks for the reply. After reading a couple of your articles and talking with Doug at Camerland, I decided to go with a better quality optic; spending a few more dollars in the process. I hooked up with Doug and will be testing a pair of Minox ASPH and Pentax DCF SP both in 10x42(43) configuration.

Hadn't thought of the eye strain issue because I've spent a few years squinting through cheap 8x32 glasses trying to count points while deer scouting from afar - hence my move toward 10x42's.

Thanks again.

-- BW

Remseven--

Have never done a monocular piece because they tend to come and go too fast. Every few years some company gets the bright idea to make one, then it doesn't sell and gets dropped. Zeiss made a nifty one maybe 12 years ago, but....

Lately I have been using the Leupold Compact spotting scope, a 10-20x little porro job that is very light and compact. Found out it could sub for binoculars and spotting scope under certain conditions, such as caribou hunting. But have not tried a real monocular in years.

MD

Thank you sir, may give Doug a Hi, to see what he thinks of that Brunton I mentioned.

Will check out the compact you mention to see if I can focus it one handed fairly undetected. Never thought about that one. I wear the lineless bifocs, and by the time I get binos focused for definitive view, sling strap, pack straps adjusted to get the eyepiece in the right place, the animal has done figured out I'm something that isn't supposed to be there

Got the Zeiss, and it works, but is difficult to focus one handed as the adjustent is on the eye end.

I have followed your fine writing for some years, and particularly your optics articles. I have not yet seen any review of the Eagle Optics line of binos. The Ranger Platinum series of roof prism binoculars are in my opinion one of the great bargins in 8x42 and 10x42 glass out there. Priced around $400 they will compare favorably with anyones $600 binoculars. They are definately worth a look, if you have a chance. Thanks for the great work, and all of the fine days we have spent in the field together!

Thanks!

I haven't reviewed any of the Eagle Optics line because for a while I was under the misapprehension that they didn't like hunting. (I was whispered this by the host of a dinner party, where he and I and the Eagle folks ended up at the same table. Turned out the guy was an idiot.)

I am going to be reviewing some even newer stuff brought out by the Eagle folks very soon. Just got a UPS package with three binoculars and a spotting scope last week.

MD

Mule Deer

You may have answered this question already, but here goes anyway. How do the Cabelas Euros compare to the Leupold Golden Ring binos. I hunt mostly in central and eastern Montana so do a lot of classing. Recently I compared the Leupolds to Zeiss, Swarovskis, Lieca's and Brunton. The Swarovskis and Lieca's were the best optically with the Leupolds right in there with the others. Obviousely there were no Cabelas binos at the local store.

Just a Hunter

The Cabelas Euros are right in there with the others. Their only "disadvantage" so far is that they only come in 10x42, which some people would say is not a disadvantage at all.

MD

Mule Deer, I am currently debating between a Nikon Premier in 10x42 and the Eagle Optics Ranger Platinum in 10x42 or 10x50. If the Rangers are good enough, I save about $600 toward a sxs. I don't suppose either of those is among the optics you got from EO for testing, and if so when might you be wlling to venture an opinion?

Mule Deer

Thanks for your quick reply. The 10x42 are what I want. After using 8X32 Nikons for years I find they just don't work very well in open country. That may be due to inferior optics. They work well in timbered country though.

The stuff from Eagle is not Ranger Platinum, but the new Vortex. Am impressed so far, but am trying to find out the real-world price point, which as we all know affects such things!

MD

I probably missed it but what is your opinion on the Zeiss classics in 10 x40.

They're very good, of course, and tend to be rugged, something that isn't necessarily connected to optical quality. But they are not as good optically as today's top-notch binoculars, and no better than many of the others that cost less than $1000.

MD

Thanks for your reply Muledeer, I will also look at the Vortex series. The search goes on.

Thanks Mule Deer..........John

Muledeer (John),I just got a Minox 8X42 binoc . I'm not very sophisticated in the use of binoculars,having used only my Redfield 7X35 pair for years now....These Minox seem fine to me,although the Redfields did alright too.I believe the Minox are sharper and brighter than my Redfields were. Have you compared the Minox with other brands? I paid about 270 bucks for my 8X42's. Your comments would be much appreciated. Thanks for being an educated advisor, to we, who'd otherwise require many years of field testing to attain your expertise in optics.

Minox binoculars are very good, and an excellent value for the money. They employ German engineers to design stuff, which is then made in Japan, a great way to cut down costs.

MD

The Vortex appears to be another step in the Eagle house brands. If you go to the Vortex website the location listed is the same as Eagle Optics. Not a bad thing, just the facts.
Dave

I second the motion on the quality of Minox binocs, but would caution that "Minox-built" under another brand name, such as my Eagle Optics, may not be quite the same level. While advertized as "fully multi-coated," there were clearly some surfaces without coating.

Jaywalker

The Vortex line also comes in several levels of quality.

MD

Did somebody already ask about the brunton 10X32 binos?

Can't remember if they did or not. I have never had my hands on one, just the 10.5x44 (or whatever it is, the real expensive one they started out asking $1500 for, and has optics in the $750 range).

MD

Mule Deer

There is a website that is advertising Zeiss Conquest Binoculars for very cheap prices. 10x30s for $270. The 8x30s costing a bit more

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/category/desc/43

What are your opinions of these binos? Would you go with 10x or 8x?

Thanks!

I have only seen the Con quest binoculars at the SHOT Show. They appeared to be worth the price, but can't tell you more as they haven't gotten me a sample to really test yet.

MD

John: Your opinion on the best compact (8X30"ish") out there regardless of price please? jorge

Either the Leica Ultravid or Zeiss FL, with the Nikon Premier LXL just a tiny hair behind, if that. My only reservation about any of them would be the Zeiss, which does not have the solid feel of the other two.

I have personally used the Nikon a LOT for a while now, and it has held up perfectly.

MD

Thanks! I have set of 10X42 SLC Swaros that are very nice, but heavy. Great for stand hunting or long range glassing, but for chasing buffalo all day, they were like a boat anchor around my neck, so I'm looking for something that is lighter witha slight trade off in light transmission. jorge

I know what you mean. For Africa I generally pack an 8x32 or something similar, like my old Swaro 7x30. Don't need anything more for African hunting, especially typical thornbush. Did take a 8.5x42 Swarovski EL a few years ago when hunting very open country in southwestern South Africa for springbok, Cape kudu, etc. and it worked fine of course, but am sure any good 8x32 would have done just fine too.

MD

Take a look at the 6.5X32 minox if from [email][email protected][/email] have leica 8X42's, pentax DCF SP 12.5X50's....the little minox are amazing in how they compare to the leica's...not as sharp, sure, but you will be really surprized by how sharp they are. I like the individual focus for this kind of hunting as well. For a walking hunting bino, they are the cats pajamas.

Is anyone really satisfied with a smaller binoc? It seems to me there is more than just light transmission you would be giving up over say an 8x42. I am no expert but maybe its the consequences of a smaller exit pupil that causes a seemingly smaller field of view in width as well as a shorter in focus depth?

Fiueld of view is not generally smaller in, say, 8x glasses with smaller objective lenses. FOV is controlled more by ocular lens size, depth of field and magnification.

But the size of the exit pupil can make a difference in long-term glassing, the reason I would have to choose an 8x42 as the best all-around binocular. It has a big enough exit pupil (5.25mm) to allow the eyeball to "roam" around inside the binocular, rather than being forced to stare straight ahead as is the case with smaller exit pupils. This makes for greater comfort when glassing for long periods, as when sitting on a ridge and glassing a lot of country below.

But for woods hunting, where you're rarely glassing for more than a few minutes at a time, a smaller exit pupil works fine.

MD

Some binocular specs mention operating temperature. They usually give a bracket say 15 to 120 degrees for example. What is the nature of some binoculars in extreme cold, say -20 or colder? Do they have problems functioning, maybe some scopes too?

MD,

Have you had any experience with the new Bushnell Elite 8x43's? If so, what are your thoughts and what do they compare too?

Thanks. NH Hunter.

I have hunted in -20 degree weather more than occasionally, and have never had any problems with either scopes or binoculars.

My guess is that in binoculars any problems would have something to do with the function of the focus system, perhaps the lubes involved.

MD

NH Hunter--

I have one of the 8x43 Bushnell Elites, and like all the Elite binoculars made since they were called Baushc & Lombs, they are excellent. They compare optically to the best in the world.

MD

MD - Thanks.

NH Hunter.

Further to Elite Q&A.
Compare the newest Elite 8x43 to the Pentax DCF SP 8x43 if you would.
Not really concerned about the price difference.
Thanks for being such a great info source!

I would give the optical edge to the Bushnell Elite, but not by much. But that has been the trend in optics lately: The performance difference between "affordable" binoculars and those costing 5 times as much is far narrower than it used to be.

MD

John

Just wanted to thank you for this thread and your columns. Based on your writings I recently picked up the Pentax 10x43 DCF SP from Cameraland. They're great and worth every penny. Thanks for saving me the bundle that I would have spent on much more expensive binos for a minimal amount of increased performance.

You're welcome! Glad you like the Pentax....

MD

Mule Deer have you had an opportunity to examine the Vortex 9x63 Hawk Owl? If so how would you compare them with the Burris Signature Select 10x50?
Thanks

Have a box full of Vortex optics to test right now. Have not been able to thoroughly do so yet, but in general have been very impressed, especially because of the prices. But have not made many direct comparisons yet.

MD

MD,

Whatever happened to 7 and 9x? somewhere along the way they evolved into 8 and 10x; hard to find a nice 9x glass, this once was considered a good long range choice in bino's.

One other question. I'm looking at a Zeiss Conquest 10x30 for antelope hunting where I live in MT. I've had a chance to demo the glass-really light (18-19 ozs) and clear. Can be picked up on Ebay sometimes new for well under $400. Seems like a lot of glass for the money. They seem pretty bright for 10x30s, and it's been my experience that antelope hunting is not generally a low light proposition like, say, deer hunting. What do you think?

BTW, thanks for you generous participation here. Love your stuff.

DrFish

Glad you like the writings! The 10x30 Conquest sounds like a good pronghorn glass to me....

MD

MD, have you ever had the chance to look through Bushnell's new Discoverer roof's?

Yesh, they're pretty good. But it's getting so there really are very few even mediocre binoculars on the market. The competition is so fierce that the bad ones go away pretty quickly.

MD

Thanks John, keep up your great work. I value your opinions.

Mule Deer,

Have you had a chance to look through Leupolds 6X30 Porros? Just wondering what you think of these little guys. I have a Nikon 8x32 LX for serious work but I'm thinking these little porros would be much better than my compacts to keep in the truck or to let the kids use.

Mule Deer,
I have a chance to purchase the Burris Signature Select 8x42 for $240.What do you think?Should I bite or save towards a better binocular?
Thanks,
Jim

centershot--

The Leupold 6x30 Yosemites are one of the great bargains in binoculars. They are also designed with a narrower inter-pupillary distance so kids can easily use them. I'd go for it....

MD

I have been using a new 10x50 Signature Select a LOT this year, and am very impressed. The others in the line appear to be very good as well, and in my opinion you can't beat the 8x42 for $240, or even $350. They are just darn good glass.

Now, you can pay three times as much for glass that's, say, 5% better. Whether you want to is up to you.

MD

Jim,
I just want to caution you to be very careful that who you are dealing with is not confused about the "Select".
The Signature Selects are worth twice that much and they may be selling you the old design "Burris Signatures" which are not even half the glass quality of "Selects."

MD,
Thanks because of your tip I bought a pair of Signature Select 8x42 keepers that I am well pleased with. I may eventually buy some 10x50s to go with them.

A good point. The Selects are a noticable upgrade. Glad you like your 8x42's!

MD

Straydog,
Thank you for the headsup!Yes,the Signature Selects that I am contemplating are the new ones,just a one time good deal from work.
Thanks,
Jim

Mule Deer ,

i am looking at getting a top of the range set of 10x32 binos , how would you place the ultravids , zeiss fls and swaro els ?

Cheers in advance .

Mule Deer,
About how long do you feel it will be until we begin seeing larger glass low light models like 8x50 or 8x56 in the latest lines of top glass such as the Elites, Ultravids, LXLs, FLs, ELs?
Thanks

Bung1,

I'm not Mule Deer, but if I can offer a little advice, it would be to forget the EL's in the 32mm size. I owned an 8x32 EL and it was a dissapointment.

IMHO, the best deal going for 32mm binos is the Nikon Venturer/Premier/LX/LXL's or whatever they're called in your neck of the woods. They're simply awesome glass!

bung1--

Sorrt not to respond quicker, but didn't notice your post untiul now. Have been distratced by some unexpected stuff....

I would go with the Leicas. The Zeisses are fine glass, but have no track record yet on durability for this particular model. The Swarovskis are not up to the optical standard of the bigger EL's.

MD

Straydog--

I haven't heard about any bigger objective binoculars being planned in those lines, but you never know. I do suspect, however, that the increased brightness of optics in general over the past decade or two has made such "night glasses" less marketable. They also go against the current trend toward lighter weight binoculars.

MD

Mule Deer,

I have a good friend who is in the market for a quality set of binoculars...a set that will give him good use for the rest of his life. The constraint that he has is that he has a budget of $300.00 give or take a few bucks.

With that criteria in place, and with your experience, what brands and models would you advise him to give the time in researching to?

Thanks.

Thanks Mule Deer for your opinion , over here in New Zealand getting to compare binos side by side is impossible , there wouldn't be a shop in this country that has the three sets i was considering , i have bought the Ultravids from doug and they should be here any day , cant wait to have a play .

For under $300 I would look at the new Vortex Sidewinder 8x42. They ruin around $250 and are more optics for the buck than any other glass I've looked through in that price range. Eagle Optics sells them.

MD

MD- What is your thoughts on useing the image stabilized binos for youths. I am thinking of my 10 year old son. I am not sure if he is holding mine still enough to be of enough use for him. Would they be worth it? He really likes looking at deer but does get a little wobbly.

One problem might be the interpupillary distance. Most binoculars are designed for adults, with the two eyepieces set for adult distance between the eyes. At 10 he might be able to use the stabilized binocs, and then again he might not. Most adult-size binocs have a minimum IP of about 55-60mm, while kids often are narrower.

Another solution to the same problem is lower-power glass, say 6x, which cuts way down on the shake factor. Leupold's Yosemite 6x30 binoculars are very inexpensive (about $60 I believe) but of good optical quality, and are designed for kids with a narrower ID.

MD

Never thought of that. Thats what I will do.
Thanks

Mule Deer,

Any progress on the Vortex tests? I'm interested in how the Vulture stacks up against the Burris SS 10X50.

Thanks

The 10x50 Vulture was one of the few disappointments I had in the Vortex line so far. It did not match the Burris 10x50 SS, one of the bets buys I have seen lately.

John

John, thanks for the reply. I've been leaning towards the Burris anyway.

MD,

Totally agree with you here. Those Sidewinders are VERY nice.

Mule Deer,
I'm looking at the Zeiss Conquest 8x30 which I can now pick up for about $400 new. I saved up to get the Swaro 8x30 SLC (previous model, not this new one out now), which I can get for $600 or so slightly used and $700 brand new. Is the Swaro worth the extra $200-$300? The Zeiss seemed to be a good lightweight binocular.

Zeiss promised me a review 8x30 Conquest at the SHOT Show in February, but I have not seen it, so haven't been able to make any direct comparisons with other glass (the only way I have found to get real idea of what are the best buys). You can't go wrong with the SLC's for the price you are looking at, though.

John Barsness

Thanks MD!

John (Mule Deer),

I'm looking at Leica 8x32 ultravids, I see alot of reconditioned ones.

Which way should I go, new or used - Used carrys a 10 year warranty, new carrys a lifetime.

My thoughts here that every 10 years glass evolves? or at least the coatings do so I would be good to get the used ones.


Mike aka Spot

I'd go with the used. You're right, every few years they come out with some spectacular new upgrade, so why spend the extra on new glass that will be obsolete all too quickly?

John

MD-

Have you ever taken a look through Brunton Lite Techs? I have ran across a deal for some 10X42's for $80. These would be used mostly for work to read brands and ear tags on cattle or just general "windshield surveys". Thanks in advance for any input you have on them or any other suggestions you have for binos that would perform the above mentioned tasks.

Have not had the opportunity, but would imagine they'd work just fine for the purposes you outline.

JB

Mule deer,

One last question 8x32 or 10x32, which ultrivid would be better for still hunting.

I'm half torn on this one, 8x would have better focused depth, 10x would have better magnification but possibly shake.

My trinovids were 8x and they were so sharp I could see as good as 10x so I'm leaning to the 8x...

Anything I didn't consider?

Mike aka spot

I woiuld go with the 8x32 for the reasons you describe, plus the fact the generally there is a sharpness edge to 8x32's vs. 10x32's of the same make, even in really good binoculars like Leicas.

JB

Thanks JB, tis a good deal of dough involved not to give it a second guess before diving in.

Mike

Thanks for the info/advice.

Mule Deer got a question for you. I have been talking to Doug about binos and have boiled it down to these 2. The Minox HG's in 10x52 and the Demo Nikon Premier LX/L in 10x42. In this comparison which one would you reccomend. Also I owned the Minox ASPH's in 10x42 and the Pentax DCF SP's in 10x43. Neither really appeared to give me a big improvement from Nikon Monarch ATB's, will these binos I mentioned be a significant improvement in your opinion?Thanks

MD- picked up the Leupold Yosemite 6x binos finally and as you sugested they are perfect for my 10 year old. He thought the light olive color was cool as well. Now if I can keep him a little quieter when he sees stuff while hunting.
Thanks

I asked this question a year ago but have not seen a reply. What about Brunton binocs? What is your opinion?
Thanks

I got to compare the latest 10X42 Minox-I think it was an HG, but I'm not sure - to an 8X32 Nikon LX-L last spring. The Nikon LX-L was definately better. Even at 60 ft. I could read lettering that, with the Minox, I couldn't quite. At 250 yds. the difference wasn't hard to see if I stacked them. The 52mm size may be a hair sharper than the 42mm size, but I'll bet money the Nikon LX-L will be better.
They are both way better than the Nikon Monarch 10X42 I also tested. I mean both these allowed me to read the 3rd line in the fonts I was sent by Rick. But, with the Monarch, I could only read the largest lettering which was at least 3X larger. You don't need to stack them to see the difference. It's easy to see. E

Minox 8-14X40 ED?

Mule Deer, if you have tested these, how do they compare to the Leica Duovid? Are they very bright on the higher power setting?

Thanks,

Auld Arnery

AlaskaCub (and others with Minox questions)--

Have not had the chance to test many of the latest Minox binoculars, as my contact there left and have not gotten them to send me any of the latest stuff. Got to look at them at SHOT and was impressed, but that is not a side-by-side comparison.

However, both the Nikon Premiers and Leicas are about as good as it gets optically. Have not seen anything that beats them on an overall comparison with all in their lines, and very few that match them.

JB

45--

Sorry if I missed a previous question. While Brunton in general offers good binoculars, in general my observation would be that Bruntons are not quite as good as Brunton believes they are. In other words, for the same price you can often do a little better.

JB

Mr. Barsness, what is your personal opinion of the Steiner
"Predator" binocs, particularly the "CAT" coated models?
Is that a benefit, or just an edge, or an out-and-out gimmick?

I note that Steiner used to offer rifle scopes with similarly
"CAT" coated optics, but has gotten out of that market com-
pletely, if my info is correct.

Still, at only (!) $849 from Cabela's, Steiner 10X50 CAT-
coated Predators look like a relative bargain for Naz - oops,
I mean German - glass.

Your thoughts?

Though Steiner binoculars have gotten better in recent years, I have never been that impressed with what you get for the money--especially in German optics.

The glass you speak of is simply designed to have a bias toward the red end of the spectrum. It might help some people find game, but mostly it appears to me to be a marketing gimmick.

JB

Have you tangled with Scheels brand binos?
If so I'd like your input.I am in the market and make no claims of being an expert.I looked through their 10x50 Icon hunter.I was inside a lit store peering at the xmas shoppers outside and in adjacent parking lots.I couldn't see any edge haziness,and they seemed clear to me.I did find myself fiddling with the focus knob but only when looking at distances of great desparity.Thanx in advance.

Was not 3even aware that Scheels offered their own brand. Will have to stop at one (we have several in Montana) and take a look!

JB

Thanx for the response,I'll wait.

Mule Deer, did you ever give those Eagle Optics binos a test? What did you think? As I recall they were not the Rangers, which I think are way better than the price, But I am curious none the less.

I have several a test, and also have several more in a box waiting to be tested. In general they are all very good buys for the price. I rate them highly.

John

John;

Given a budget of $350 to $500, what binoculars would you look at for a pair of "general, all-'rounders" in the 6.5x to 8.5x range? Use would be scanning fields for groundhogs, treestands early and late during deer season in hardwoods, still-hunting dark river bottoms, etc.

Which glass, and why?

Thanks,

There are a bunch of good glasses in that price range right now (and no doubt I will see more at the SHOT Show next week), but right now my pick would be the Burris Signature Supreme. Within your parameters the 8x42 would be it, but the 10x50 is about as light as most 8x42's, and would do wonderfully for your purposes, in my experience. Last I heard the retail was around $450.

If you insisted on 8.5x I would go with the 8.5x(43-44-45?) Weaver Grand Slam. Price about the same or a little less.

Both are much brighter in dim light than anything smaller, and 8.5-10x would help a lot one those groundhogs.

JB

Thanks.

Brightness is paramount, as just about anything can be used on g'hogs, but in the woods is where the most benefit is needed.

In fact, I'd give up Xs for quality, if, say a 6.5 or 7 was markedly better than an 8 or 10.

There's more to "brightness" than light transmission. Apparent brightness is partly a function of magnification, the reason for the "twilight factor" formula, which applies very well to binoculars. You'll be able to see more in dim light with an 8x or 10 with the proper objective size than a 6x or 7x.

In general, the biggest virtue of 6-7x at woods ranges is field of view. But you'll be able to see better with 8-10x. I have never had any trouble finding animals even with 10x a woods ranges.

John

MD -

Just purchased a copy of your book "Optics for the Hunter" and really appreciate the knowledge - good reference book. I'd like to see an update however; since publication, many advances in optics have occurred.

Recommendation for all readers - buy this book! You won't regret it.

Yeah, I recently talked to the publisher, and we are both thinking about an updated edition. The trouble so far is that the original has been selling pretty well since it came out! But it looks like a revision is on the horizon....

JB

Cool ! I'll be first in line. Your book was one of the very best I've ever bought. E

MD- What do you think of the Burris Signature Select 10X42 binos compared to Pentax DCF SPs, Leupold Pinnacles, and Minox BR asphericals? Trying to narrow selection for upcoming elk hunt and need to stay in the mid-range price for now. Thanks,
Jed

They are all very darn good, and I would hate to call one better than the other, as some people's eyes might choose differently. You can't go wrong with any of them.

JB

jedgreen,
This is the way my eyes rate them in 8x, have not owned the 10x.
1st Minox BR Asph
2nd Burris Signature Select
3rd Pentax DCF SP

I haven't been using a binocular much in the past but now I'm starting to use one more often. So I'm stepping up from using my compact to getting a regular binocular. I am looking at buying a particular binocular in either the 8 x 42 or the 10 x 42 of the same brand, same quality. Which would be more beneficial for an all around use?

I have one of the first 15x56 Swaro slc's. They don't seem to perform as well as the 12x50 leica's a friend owns. What are your thoughts on the new 15x SLC's?
Brad

Your article about best buys in binos was great. But, as most writers do, they left out one of my favorite brands. Olympus. I have the 10x42 Magellan EXPII, roof prisms, waterproof, fogproof and phase coated. List price I forget, but probably a little over 300. They are absolutely fanastic with no faults that I can find. Rugged and compact. Used them on a bear hunting trip in Hyde county NC a few weeks ago and they performed flawlessly. I have compared them to many of the models you looked at and I could not justify spending one dime more for the others. Take a look at them and see what you think. The problem is, they are rarely sold in hunting goods stores. They are made in Japan with Olympus glass. Olympus has had one of the finest reputations for being one of the best camera makers in the world and I believe they know a thing or two about making optical products. I have a lesser expensive pair of porro prism models and while good, do not match the quality of the roof prism model.

I got to try out a 10X42 EXPII Oly last spring. They looked pretty good, but a quality binocular they weren't. The only thing they were better than was the Nikon ATB I also had to compare.
Compared to my ancient B&L Zephur 9X35, purchased in 1958, and the 10X42 Minox BR ASPH, they were no where near close.
I determined this by focusing and stacking each.
There are those that argue that there is little difference between the really expensive binoculars from companies like Leica, Zeiss and Swarovski. There is some truth to that. But there is a much bigger difference between binoculars like the Nikon ATB and the OLY EXPII and the better Minox/Pentax SP class of binocular. E

lgh--

I would go with an 8x42 for general use, a 10x42 only if you hunt quite a bit in open country.

JB

brdana--

The 12x50 Leicas are spectacular, and I'm not surprised you prefer them to the older 15x SLC's. But some of the preference might be due to binocular shake. It's hard to hand-hold anything above 12x sufficiently steady to make a real evaluation.

All that aside, the new 15x SLC's are noticeably better than the old, and I believe you would be able to see more detail through them than any 12x glass made.

JB

Flipper3--

You're right, Olympus does sell good optics. I am not totally unacqainted with their products, having looked through some binoculars and owned a couple of Olympus cameras. But part of the job of a writer is to provide information on stuff people can readily buy. Also, Olympus has never really reached out to the hunting community. They do not go to the SHOT Show, and have never contacted any hunting writers that I know of.

Thus I tend to recommend glass that is readily available in sporting goods outlets (whether stores or catalogs) and is also marketed by some company interested in the hunter.

JB

Mule Deer,
I'm just curious if you have had a chance to look at the Scheels Icon yet? The only additional information I've been able to obtain is they are made by Shin Hahn,and that means zero to me.I was told they (Shin Hahn) manufacture for other brands as well,but I can't get any specifics.I'll drop it on your desk,as any good "reader" would. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Have not seen them yet--and there are getting to be too many Asian optics manufacturers to keep track of!

JB

JB,
Great article on glass!! I hunt with a friend several times each year that carries Leica 12 x 50 Ultra's. Two weeks ago we hunted Mule Deer in Mexico and he wouldn't let me have my Stoney Point Polecat back after I let him "borrow" it to stabilize his binos.
Your article is why I packed the "Polecat" for the trip.

I carried my Leica 10 x 42's and gave our guide my Leupold 12 x 40 spotter to use. He carried a Pentax 10 power bino too. All worked out well as all of the glass performed flawlessly and everyone harvested nice Muley's.

There is a lot to be said for saving up and buying top quality binoculars. They sure make a difference when a guy is looking (sometimes for days) around every Palmeto and under every Mesquite in every draw and canyon that his legs will carry him too for a trophy Mule Deer.
They are definitely hard to find and missing one due to image sharpness or contrast issues would be a real bad deal. Just make sure there is enough lens cleaning paper to go around!!
Have you had a chance to take the Leupold HD 12 x 40 spotter for a test drive? I have been thinking of possibly upgrading to the HD glass from the standard 12 x 40's I have had for several years.

Congratulations on a fine hunt!

I have not had a chance to try the HD 12-40x Leupold, but every other time I've been able to compare HD with non-HD models of any spotter there has been a slight but bnoticeable difference in favor of the HD. Don't know whether it is enough to get me to trade in my faithful 12-40x though, which has always performed fine. Of course, I also have a 62mm Minox HD that gets some use as well....

JB

Mule Deer,
Did you get a chance to look at the new Burris Euro Diamond binoculars at the SHOT Show? If you did, what is your opinion of them. It looks like Burris is trying to compete with the Bushnell Elites and the Leupold Gold Rings.

Yes, I did look at them,a nd they looked good--but I would have to get some for direct comparison with others in the $800-$1000 range before making a firmer judgement. However, they are definitely a step up from the Signature Supremes, which are darn good themselves.

JB

Need a suggestion for the "best" low-light binocular for around $600 or less. Weight isnt an issue. Use is for stand hunting in the deep South, where deer move very late.

Thanks, JimD.

I would like to know if you have ever had the chance to look at the Kowa binoculars. I noticed they have a good price on them but have never had the chance to look through them. I have looked through their spotting scope and I still think that it was the clearest spotting scope that I have ever looked at. This includes the Swarovski that I have been using the last couple of seasons. If Kowas binoculars are as good as I think their spotting scope is I will probably buy a set. Any info will be appreciated.

Thanks

I have never owned a scope with AO allowances. I have never needed anything over 10x and I like things simple. (maybe I am lazy ). Now I think I want a 14x scope and the marketing the Leupold folks make me think the VX7 is what I need. As it is being presented these features work within what I think I want.
What are your thoughts on the features?
What about the glass in low light compared to others in this price?
How thin is the inside crosshairs on the XT reticle? Does the thickness of crosshair change with increasing power?

Sorry to ramble
Thanks

I would look at any of the binoculars in that price range ($400-$600) in 10x50 or even 12x50. The bigger objective helps in low light, but more magnification does as well. I have been using the Burris Signature Supreme in 10x50 for the past year (around $450) and have been very impressed, but they also make it in 12x50.

JB

Mule Deer

I have been doing some research lately on mid range ($300-$500 Canadian) 8x bino's lately. Thanks to this particular forum and several of your articles I think I am on the write track in selecting what I want.

I have a technical/advertising question though, are phase "coated" optics technically the same as phase "corrected"?

MD,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, they are the same thing. It is referring to the shift (length) of light as it passes through the prism of a roof prism binocular. Porro prism bino's do not suffer from this effect.

Mule Deer

Have you had a chance to look at the Zeiss Conquest 8X40 binoculars? What would be a comparable piece of glass?
Thanks..RL..

I have been promised an 8x40 Conquest to review but haven't seen one yet.

JB

Mule Deer

The price difference between the bushnell elite 8x42 and the vortex razor 8x42 is about $150, is there any reason to pick one over the other? I have been using a 10x42 B&L discoverer for the last 5 years and I am also considering replacing it with a high end 8x32 like a nikon LXL. Can the 8x32 handle most things that the 42mm can do? I do hunt in the mountains every year but the majority of use is at shooting distances. Thanks.

Mule Deer,

I am interested in buying a pair of high end binoculars. I am considering the Swaro SLC10x42. As a comparison, how does the Cabela's Euro 10x42 rate?
Any others I should consider.

Thank you for your assistance.

JD338

It compares very well. It's made by Meopta, a company in the Czech Republic that is one of the hottest on the market right now. In fact they make parts and lenses for some bigger names. I have used Meopta scopes and binocs for a while now, and while the Cabela's are slightly heavier thand the Swarovskis, they are right in there optically. They are also built very tough.

JB

Mule Deer,

Thank you for your prompt reply! I contacted Meopta today and found out that they are a 74 year old company but have only been in the US market since 2004. Their warrenty is lifetime and transferable. They private lable for several companies as well as offering their own line of optics, which use their best quality glass.
Meopta offers the Meostar 10x42 #467780 with their best glass. It optically outperformes the Cabela's Euro and they claim it is the best on the market for resolution and true color. MSRP is $979.00.
They also offer a 8x42 for the same price.
Can you offer any comments on the Meostar 10x42 binoculars?

Regards,

JD338

I have only sen them at the SHOT Show, which is not the same as an extensive test, but they are very fine optically, and are built quite solidly. I have tested some Meopta riflescopes, and they are not only top-notch optically and mechanically, but very tough.

JB

Some topnotch techs spun off from a big company and started Meopta - I think I read. Can anyone verify this? Was it Leica?

Thanks Mule Deer.
A local shop has some on back order and will have them in 2-3 weeks. At $849, it sounds like I need to check them out.

JD338

MD,

I was wondering your take on the Cabela's Alaskan Guide binocs vs say the Cabela's Euro or the Pentax. Maybe another suggestion in that same $600-$800 price range? My father is now retired and has never had a really good set of binoculars, but now he has more time to be out hunting and scouting and I thought this might be a great Father's Day gift for him.

I have a pair of Swift Trilytes, 8x42 which I have had for about 7 years, so I may be due for a new set as well! Thanks for your input.

Message to Rick Bin. That piece you did on bino's was one of the best studies I have ever seen. Thanks to you and your assistants for the info and the time you took to do it properly and unbiased. Sportsman all over North America will benefit from this info. That is why this is the best forum on the net for the beginner and even the veterans can learn a few things. Have a great day.

Mule Deer,

Just wanted to let you know that I did a side by side comparison with the Meopta Meostar 10x42 #467780 and the Swarovski SLC 10x42 binoculars. To my eyes, the Meopta was slightly brighter. The resolution and color were the same as if not slightly better than the Swarovski SLCs.I went ahead and ordered a new pair of the Meoptas and should have them by the end of the week.

Thank you for all your help, I greatly appreciate it.

Regards,

JD338

John
My daughter started hunting with me a few years ago, for California blacktails. The areas we hunt are mostly heavily wooded with some open areas. I would like to buy her a real good pair of binoculars to use. Yet, I don't have much money to afford (about $100.00).

Is it possible to get a set of Binoculars in that price range that can perform close to the good sets? Could you name some?

Mule Deer,
Thank you again for keeping this forum up to date with some great optics knowledge. I really appreciate the bino thread. I'm looking into a scope right now- what are the chances of getting a similar scope thread? That would be awesome.

Seems like I missed keeping up with this thread due to travel. You are thinking of Minox, not Meopta, I suspect.

duckster--

The Cabela's are good glass. Heck, they all are these days in this price range, but it is hard to beat the Cabela's Euro.

slideaction--

The Leupold Yosemite is what you are looking for. It is not only $100 or so, but designed to handle the closer eyes of kids. Also light and good optically.

dryflyelk--

Am getting out of the optics writing business, for several reasons. Sorry!

JB

HEY JOHN Im thinking MINOX hg 8x32 or KAHLES 8x32. Which one "BIG GUY"? thanks.........................547.

Toss a coin....

JB

If it was your decision (split the atom between the two) your opinion means alot.thanks...............547.

I'd go with the Minox then....

JB

Thanks John, I can get the MINOX a little cheaper than the KAHLES so going MINOX will save a little money too.........547.

Hello John, I am looking at buying an 8-32 class bino for multi use and am willing to spend up to $1000 US. Which gets your highest recomendation? I am considering minox HG, pentax ED, and nikon LXL but I am looking for your personal pick if $1000 is the upper limit. Thank you.

Mule Deer,
Are there quality differences between the B&L Elite 8X42 waterproof binocs when copared to the new Elite 8x42 series being produced by Bushnell? The latter are cheaper in price, so I was curious if the ones produced by Bushnell are of the same quality as the older Elites under the B&L name.

Also, who makes a more quality Binoc, B&L or Leopold?

mdo7rem--Nikon LXL.

The Bushnell and B&L are made in the same place, by the same people. Only the name is different.

The Leupolds are darn good glass. I have found the 8x42 and 10x42 the best of their selection, and worth the money on today's market.

JB

Mule Deer,
The Leupolds you are referring to, are they the Gold Ring or Wind River line? Been looking at some Pinnacles I found at a good price. What do you think?

Nikon LXL.

Have you ever tested the Swarovski Habicht 10x42? I've had mine for over 10 years now and absolutely love them. They were sent to Swarovski for a good cleaning In January and when I got them back this week they were just like new. I'm curious as to your thoughts on these bino's as I hardly, if ever, read or see any reviews on them.

Mule Deer, I am looking at either the Kahles or the Swarovsli SLC'c in 10X42. Taking the two outside an using them, I couldn't tell much difference. Was that just me or are they that close? If they are that close, then the Kahles would be a good buy. Still deciding about the EL's instead, but definately think the Kahles over the SLC's. Your opinion?

Hunt41, I bought the Kahles a while ago, and love them. I used to own the 8x30 Swaros, and own the 8x20. They are optically so good I can't tell the difference.

I bought the 8X30 Swarovski's about 15 years ago. They were my constant companion up until about two years ago, and I was very satisfied with them. The center focus wheel broke, so I took them back to the store where I purchased them, they sent them back to the factory and I received a brand new pair. I was happy they stood behind their product like that but either my eyes had noticably deteriorated or the new pair was not quite as optically sharp to me.
I took this pair back to the store and traded them in on a pair of 10X42 Leicas. I think I actually got more in trade-in than I had originally paid for the glasses. I have not used them enough to know whether that was a good deal or not, but I wanted a more powerful set of binos so thought I would give Leica a try. Swarovski definitely stood behind their product however.
MnFn

What's your opinion on the Leupold Green Ring 10x42? I kinda bought them spur of the moment at Bass Pro Last year. Looked really clear compared to other brands. Just wondering. Thanks

Dear Mr. Barsness,

I am just getting back into hunting because my step-son is into it. He's 13. Looking to connect with him. We will be hunting in Utah. Lots of open country but some in close with the cedars. I currently have cheap Bushnell 10x50 and 8x21's. I was wondering if I should go with an 8x or 10x for for the binocular? Most people out here have suggested a 10x. I don't have $1000 to spend like all these other guys. I am looking for the best value binocular that won't break the bank. Also, could you make a suggestion for a best value spotting scope? Will you make a suggestion for a tripod?

Thank you for your help, TJ

PS- I guess what I'm asking is what is the point of diminishing returns? Will a Nikon Monarch due or should I go to the Vortex Viper, Pentax DCF SP, Minox BP level or should I go to the Minox HG, Vortex Razor, Pentax DCF ED level?

John,

Have you done any testing on rangefinders yet? Sorry to change the subject, but I'm looking at Leica 1200 CRF (1200 scans are discontinued) Newcon 2000Pr0, Bushnell elite 1500, and Bushnell 1500 ARC.

Longrangesupply dealer says Bushnell has about 20% duds when he tested his 1500's

Leicas are expensive at $600. Are they worth it?

My dad brought back a pair of Japanese WWII 7x71 (71 degees)from the Pacific. Some of the threads that hold the barrels have been damaged and aren't tight. Is there someone who can repair them and would it be worth it?

I also have a pair of Westinghouse 6x30 M3 1943 HMS binoculars. They need cleaning. What is your opinon of them?

Thanks. Bob

Baylian,

If you are looking to save money at the start, buy the most expensive FULL-SIZE porro-prism binoculars you can. The brand doesn't matter too much, as competition these days keeps quality pretty even at any price-point. An 8x42 or 10x50 or whatever will work fine. Avoid the tiny little pocket binoculars they have in every store come fall.

Same deal with spotting scope: The best porro-prism you can afford. Almost all are zoom these days; get at least 30x on the top end. And again, avoid the compact models in the lower price range. It is alot easier to build "affordable" optics in full sizes.

JB

ba_50,

While all rangefinders have gotten better in recent years, Leica still leads the pack. They are worth the extra money.

I have no idea about the older stuff you mention.

JB

Thank you Mule Deer.

Good Hunting, TJ

Any recent thoughts on Brunton?

I understand the line is acceptable but often not first choice at each price point?

What about bought at a significant percentage off? 8X45 Eterna in a discontinued camo for just a tad over $312 out the door? Size, design and guarantee all look good for general hunting?

Haven't tested any new Bruntons for several years.

Regarding the Leupold Green Ring binocs: is it worth paying the extra $100 price difference between the Olympics and Pinnacles?

Any word on the Scheels Icons?

I have no idea. I gave up on keeping track of all the "moderately" priced binoculars on the market a couple of years ago. They change every year, and it's impossible to keep up, one many reasons I have pretty well gotten out of the regular optics writing business. It takes way too much time to keep with everything, and then when you do, it's all different the next year.

JB

Mule Deer,
The previous post probably sums up your answer, but please bear with me for taking a whack at it anyways!

I found your optics book to be very informative and gathered that at the time it was written you looked favorably upon the Pentex DCF SP. I have looked through them and they appear to be an excellent product. I am considering purchasing one.

Based on however closely you currently follow this market segment, is this probably still a good product and is there anything else you know of I should look at?

thx, 405wcf

Actually, the Pentax I really like is the DCF WP.

As for the rest of them, see previous post!

JB

What about the vortex line.I am thinking about the vipers 8 x 42,or is there better for the money ? Thank you

MD,
As always, thanks for your insight!

405wcf

Mule Deer,

I posted this over on the Optics Page but received no reply, any thoughts?

Bushnell Elite 8x43 or Zeiss Conquest 8x40 T* ABK?

How do these two compare? Is the Bushnell really in the same class as the Zeiss? Reason I ask: I can get the Bushnell for $419 and the Zeiss for $569. I looked through both and resolution seemed to be comparable. The Zeiss definitely was "cooler" than the Bushnell. I have read nothing but good things regarding the Bushnell, however I would like some other opinions. I don't mind spending an extra $150 if the two are not even in the same ballpark as far as quality goes.

Thanks,
-kgonzo

You can get the Bushnell Elite for $419? Are you sure that is the model?

JB

MD,

Yes, I held them and looked through them and they are the the split-bridge 8x43 Elite. Not the Elite2. They are marked down to $519 for clearance and Bushnell has a $100 rebate going right now for their Elite binocs. These are brand new in the box.

Thanks,
KG

MD,

Have you used the Burris Euro Diamond Binos? I am thinking of buying a set in 10x. I have the opportunity to get a pair stupid cheap from a buddy but would like some feedback on them from a person that has used them.

Would you know how the compare with the Swaros, Zeiss conquest, or Leupold Gold Rings?

Thanks in advance for any help you may be able to provide.

They are all fine binoculars. If you can get the Burris BD cheap, why then that is a baragin.

JB

John--
I have bought two products you recommended here and in your book and columns--a 8-12 Duovid that I love and a Minox 62ED that has worse image quality than my 25 year old beaten-to-hell Bushnell Spacemaster with 22x WA ocular. Two questions:
1) What is the best tripod mounting option for the Duovid? Leica's looks expensive, heavy, and not all that steady. I'm wondering about taking this problem to a machine shop.
2) Would I improve the Minox's performance significantly by switching from a zoom to something like a 25X?

Thanks so much for all your work in this area.

I don't use my Duovid on a tripod, because I find 12x doesn't really need it. If I do feel the need for some extra steadying, I place it in the forks of my shooting sticks, or stand my rifle up on its butt and "wrap" the two barrels of the binocular around the rifle barrel. So can't help you there--though I do use Leupold's little field tripod with my spotting scopes when hiking the back country.

Eyepieces do make an enormous difference in spotting scopes--and in general fixed eyepieces are sharper. My Minox has the 20-45x ED eyepiece, which provides a great view.

JB

MD,

There were a few binocular reviews in this month�s F&S�piano hinges were mentioned a few times and from one review, �A piano hinge should ensure that the binocular will stay in collimation.� According to another review, �the hinges are stout, but piano hinges would be better for long-term collimation.�

http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/photogallery/article/0,13355,1651827_31,00.html

How much more durable are piano hinges than bridge hinges?

S

Quite a bit, in my experience. It sounds like they have been reading OPTICS FOR THE HUNTER!

JB

That�s good to know�I�ve read a multitude of binocular reviews and don�t recall any mentioning of the durability of hinge designs.

Reading the Swarovski EL advertisements gives the impression that there aren�t any disadvantages�





S

I have written a number of times (aside from in my book) about the relative strength of the longer "piano" type hinge most often used in roof-prism binoculars. It is one of the reasons roof prism binoculars are considered tougher than most porro prism binoculars (the other being the stronger mounting of the prisms themselves).

Now, some porro prism binoculars also use piano-type hinges, notably some compact models that have the objective lenses closer together, as opposed to most full-size porro models which have the objectives further apart.

And aside from the Swarovski EL's, there are some roof prism binoculars that don't use a single piano hinge, notably the very small "pocket" models. These have "barrels" that are so small that they're usually connected by a interconnecting piece with hinges on both sides.

I believe you already put your finger (or words) on the debate over the Swarovski EL's already, when you noted: "Reading the Swarovski EL advertisements givs the impression that there aren't any disadvantages."

With all due respect to my friends at Swarovski, there is no way the EL-type hinges are as strong as a piano-type hinge.

It was also Swarovski's ad department, as near as I can determine, who came up with the propaganda that 30mm-tubed riflescopes have a brighter image than 1" tubed scopes. This is also demonstrably not true, and I also detailed why in OPTICS FOR THE HUNTER.

If the humanity's collective wisdom were based on advertising, we'd all be in a lot of trouble.

JB

I seem to have missed those articles, though I had noticed a few posts of yours that mentioned the piano type hinges were stronger. Thanks for elaborating on the hinge designs as well as I really hadn�t given those much thought before.

In your booklet (excerpt on Nikon�s website) �The Complete Optics Guide for Successful Hunting� it states, �Bigger objective lenses also weigh more. This might seem a disadvantage, but this extra forward weight provides steadiness. A steady binocular provides a sharper view.�

Do you think that there is an optimum weight range that corresponds to a particular power?

S

Now that I think of it, yeah. About the highest-X binoculars most people can effectively hand-hold is 12x, and I would prefer something in the mid-30 ounce range for those, and probably around 28-30 for 10x. That is for long-term, "serious" glassing.

JB

JB, what is your opion on the ability of the heavy tactical style scopes to hold up under recoil (Nightforce NXS,S&B PMll,Us Optics,ETC)
Thanks for you answer in advance.....

I haven't shot many personally (and those not enough to make any difference) but have fooled with them enough to know they are apparently built like brick outhouses, so should hold up well. Their weight, of course, is why so many realy stout "tactical mounts" have been developed.

The problems with heavy scopes not holding up to recoil are mostly found in scopes that are built the same way as lighter scopes. In other words, yes, making a scope heavier TENDS to make it more vulnerable to the forces of recoil (along with the mounts), but only if, say, a 5-20x is built the same way as the same company's 3-9x. This is why in "conventional" (non-tactical?) scopes, the smaller scopes tend to hold up better than the bigger ones: They do tend to be made the same way.

But most tactical scopes are REALLY beefed up. I still wonder, however, if in the long run they would hold up as well as an ACOG. But then ACOG's don't come in high-X either!

JB

Thanks...........

Mule Deer,
Thought I would ask your opinion on a scope for a 340 Weatherby. I recently purchased the Weatherby and am looking for good advice on what glass it should wear. Eye relief, glass quality and durability are what I consider the main issues at hand. I'd rather not pay over $1000 for a scope, but need an opinion as to what is not acceptable versus what is an excellent choice versus what is overly expensive. I have looked at the Burris Black Diamond series in 30 mm scopes (4-16x) as well as the VX-L Leupold (4.5-14x), but would like your opinion. Of course there's another issue: 30mm versus 1". There are lots of variables and lots of scopes out there. Please help!
Thanks
Elk

P.S. Just caught your comment on the Swarovski 1" Versus 30mm brightness issue. Interesting and just learned something. If the 1" is as bright as the 30mm, then why have the extra weight of a 30mm??? Hmmmm...

for the price,nikon is hard to beat.all my bino's are nikon

Thanks Gamma4diesel. I have been looking seriously at the Nikon Monarch gold as well. Nice long eye relief and a nice price! A very definite plus.
Elk

MD, have you tried the Meopta 7X42? I've heard 7X42 binoculars have a really great view and I can get one of these for $619 delivered. Any idea how they would compare to the Leica Trinovid 7X42? Thanks.

I haven't tried the 7x42, but the 10x42 Meopta (Cabela's Euro) is one one my favroite binoculars. That sounds like a great buy!

It's hard to find ANYTHING that matches Leica, but Meopta makes very fine glass.

JB

Elk: I'm not an exper for I do know a little bit about the 340
As you know I have a swaro PH 1.75X6X42 on mine, but by far the beast value in terms of durability, quality and eye relief and believe me you NEED eye relief with a 340, the Leupold 2.5X8X36 is in my opinion the BEST option.

As far as 30mm scopes, what they give you is more range of travel to adjust the X hairs and contrary to what gunwriters like Larry Weishun(sp?) say, a 30mm tube does NOT "gather" more light (scopes don't "gather" they "transmit" light) than 1" tubes. jorge

Would appreciate some feedback on the 8x32 Signatures. I'm looking for a mid-size unit with good low light vis and light weight. These only weigh 16 oz and I know their scopes have good glass but I've never looked thru these binos. Also need to stay less than $250. Considering also the 8x36 Nikon Monarchs but they're at the top end of size & weight I'm looking for. TIA

(Also posted in "Optics" forum.)

Since Shootem brought that size up, I'd like your thoughts about the very small and light Leupold Katmai 8x32, especially the optical penalties of their minimal size. Also, do you have any knowledge of S&W binocs, purportedly manufactured in the same facility as Leupolds? There's a $300 (?) 8x32 on sale here in Missoula for $99...

Mule Deer ....

Hope I'm not out of line here asking you about spotting scopes.

I'm looking for a spotting scope in the medium price range .... $600 to $1200. Weight is a concern, but not overwhelming. (I'm not going ultra-light for sheep.) I want to be able to digiscope as well as spot game. Image quality is important, as is durability. The two I'm looking at are the Leupold 12X40 HD and the Pentax PF 65EDII with a zoom eyepiece. One of my friends swears by the Pentax, but I'm a long time Leupold fan/user. What are your picks among the spotting scopes in that price bracket, and are there some candidates I'm overlooking? Thanks.

Mule Deer,

Six or seven years ago I bought a Pentax DCF WP 8x42 binocular based on some favorable comments you made. This has been a very good binocular but I have begun to wonder if I could significantly upgrade without spending too much money (I have a daughter in college and another who will be starting before too long so money is a limiting factor).
Can you suggest any models I might look at which would be a significant upgrade in performance but would not require a ton of cash?
Thanks for any suggestions you can make.

endgame,

The ones you mention would be two of my top picks. The Leupold might have the edge in waterproofing.

Dale,

Glad the Pentax glass worked out for you. Unfortunately, most of the "signficant upgrades" have gone up in porice considerably. Unless you really want to spend a LOT of money, I would stick with what you're got.

I purchased Pentax DCF SP 8X42's several years ago and am impressed with the quality. Excellent lenses and costings in a magnesium body - I think they'll last.

Okay Mule Deer, I'm going to come right and say it:::

It's time for another book on 'Optics for the Hunter'. It's been a while since the book came out. I bought it and gave it to a friend , never to be seen again. But the optics available have changed . Sooo, I'm encouraging you to put out a new edition.

One of my favorite parts of your book was about the 'cooking' of the European tests comparing US and European optics and the US optics got tested a lot before the tests, just to make the tests fair and even.

John, Why didn't the Docter optic line take off here in the U.S. When I bought my scope I paid about $300 for it, about 700-900 less than the big name german glass at the time. The clarity and quality is second to none. I have it on finlight 6.5x55 for pronghorn,deer and black bear,so this scope has a lot of hours in the field, in all weather conditions and its always perfect. Pat

Many people have already said the same thing, some as long ago as 5+ years. But I'm afraid you'll have to keep waiting.

I brought up the subject of a revised edition of OFTH with the publisher several years ago, and he agreed that it probably was time. BUT the book was still selling well, and there were some copies left in the third printing. So it will probably have to wait until those are sold. I have no idea how many are left.

Plus, the does indeed STILL sell pretty well, despite being dated in places. This is because I wrote it primarily as a "how to compare them yourself" guide, because ANY direct comparison of optics (which some people claim they want) would be obsolete in a year or two as new models appeared.

So don't hold your breath.

Okay. That just means I'll have to go out and buy another copy since the first walked off!

It is worth a re-read; I guarantee you will find stuff in there that did not ring a bell the first time through.

jim

+1 E

It is a good book. However, I'd certainly like to see an updated revision that includes a discussion of the newer technologies.

MD

Thanks for your wonderful thread, the information in it has been most enlightening.
You mentioned you have a Minox Spotter, a friend recently purchased a Minox MD 62 W ED with the 21 - 42 eyepiece. I haven't seen it but he is having trouble with the focus on max zoom. I remember reading somewhere, someone else having a similar problem, can you shed any light on this. If it's an eye piece problem he may be able to swap it with Doug.

Thanks in advance

MD
I am new to the forum and think this information is great. Could you please tell me if you ever had a chance to review the vortex line of binoculars, specifically the viper or the razor. I read in your posts that you had some to test a while back but they have not really been brought up again. I am also looking at the cabelas euros. Is there any comparison there? Thanks and if anyone wants to chime in the comments would be welcome. Thanks. P.S. I am looking at the 10x42 models although 8x42 is not out of the question.

7miller,

It probably is an eyepiece problem. I would see if it can be swapped.

bnbrk94,

I tested a number of Vortex binoculars a couple of years ago and in general was impressed with the quality for the price. But my personal choice for best-in-class in the $800 range is the Cabela's Euro. It is simply a very fine binocular, period, not just opticaly but in every way. I have beat them up in all sorts of weather conditions and they just keep ticking.

JB,

Given the origin of the Cabela's Euro, would it be safe to think your endorsement would extend to the Meostar for those of us who prefer less than 10x in a binocular? This doesn't seem like much of a leap, but I'd hate to miss something.

mathman

JB,

Thank you for the reply. I bought the vortex razor 10x42. Great warranty and great price from doug. I appreciate the help.

Mathman,

Oh, yeah.

JB,

I posted the below question on another thread and did not get anyone to reply. Do you have any thoughts on the below question?


I was wondering how the discontinued Zeiss 15 X 60 binoculars would rate against the Swaro 15 X 56. Is one better than the other? Or could it be said one would be better under different circumstances?

I have never had the chance to look through them side-by-side, so can't say. But they are both very good, of course.

Thank you for the honest response.

Exceptional article, I have been reading and researching binoculars for awhile now. Being of the poor boy syndrom I have been trying to find a good pair for about 250.00. Well after alot of research and comments from people I settled on a pair of Olympus Magellan EXWP-I 10x42.(They have an exceptional reputation for cameras and microscopes) I know they are not the 1000.00 bino's but for me I was impressed with the clarity, clearness, crispness and fast focus, even the edge to edge clarity was good. Not everone can afford the high dollar stuff and just because it cost a 1000.00 does not mean that they are not quality. Price and name bias seems to be evrywhere today. You can get a good product for less that can preform exceptionally well. One person made a comment to me that really made me think , he stated that being such a novice to optics I would not be able to tell good glass from the bad glass.

JB
Can you comment on the optic rank, and maybe pluses and minuses, of the Leica Geovid BRF 8x42 relative to mid and high end 8x42's? The obvious motive to this question is how much am I giving up using the Geovids as opposed to high end 8x42's, so as not to carry a separate rangefinder?
Thanks. Long time appreciative reader.
Alan

You're giving up nothing. The geovids have the same top-notch optics as all Leicas.

MD,
One has to appreciate your patience on coming back again and again and answering all these questions. SO Thanks in advance.

I am contemplating purchasing a pair of Vortex Diamondback 10x42's . However after reading your article I see that you like the Bushnell Legends. Have you had a chance to compare the Vortex against the Legends. They are similar in price and I am looking to stay in the 10x42's. Which would you suggest?

Alan, just keep in mind that the Geovid is basically a Trinovid bin, not an Ultravid. (See their catalogue for a detailed comparison). The Geo's have excellent optics and the range finder works extremely well. The downside to the Geovid is the bulky size and their weight. If you hunt with bins around your neck all day, those Geo's could become a pain.

I also considered the Geos as an alternative to separate items but went with the Lieca CRF 900 and regular full sized bins. Price wise, the cost was about the same either way.

Hope this helps.

I haven't had a chance to try them side by side, and so would hate to make the call. They are both good glass--one thing about the optics market today is that it's really hard to buy mediocre glass even at $250 or so anymore.

Mule Deer,
This is a bit off topic but are there two of you? I know you are John Barsness, I have been a big fan for years and always appreciated that you were a Montanan. But do you also live in Alaska? I'm pretty new to the forum and am a little confused.

Thanks, John

I live in Montana and only in Montana--but there are other John Barsnesses that live here. In fact, when I attended the University of Montana there were three of us going to that school at the same time.

Glacier- are you referring to Mule Deer and muledeer?

Thanks for the replys, now I see there is Mule Deer (John Barsness) in Montana and muledeer (DS) in Alaska. I wasn't picking up on the different spellings. I'm kinda slow, glacier like.
John

Thank you for this forum and your answers - On your recommendation I just bought this binocular and am extremely impressed with the quality. One nice thing about Cabela's is their return policy and the fact that cheapskates like myself can use Cabela's Club points and often get gift cards from people who know we have this hunting and rifle disease - so binos like these can be had quite cheaply (and make the wife happy to boot!

John,
Any recommendations for 8x32 mid-sized binos in the <$500 price range? I'm looking for something that's not extremely heavy.

In that price range I would look at the better porro-prism glasses for an 8x32, such a Leupold, Nikon, etc.

Thanks for the response, John. Looks like Minox also makes an 8x42 porro that may be compact enough for me.

John,
I'm considering a Geovid BRF, but I�m not sure if I should go for the 8x 42 or the 10 x 42. Are the 8�s significantly cleared, with noticeable better low light capabilities? Is it really that much of an issue to hold the 10�s steady?

I'm leaning to the 10x's, but don't want to spend this amount of money on something less than optimal.

Your comments will be much appreciated.

Several years ago, I purchased a Pentax 8x43 DCF SP. Very impressive - bright and durable.

Mule Deer:

Are you reading your P.M. here?

Thanks,

Richard

Not very often.

I wrote the article for Rick several years ago, with the addition that I'd answer any questions on it. As noted, that was years ago. Anything about the optics tested then would be out of date, and I long ago ceased testing every binocular that came on to the market.

That may seem unprofessional, but I can assure you that it is IMPOSSIBLE to test every optic that comes onto the market. So I don't--and never have.

If you want me to answer the latest question, well I can. There just isn't enough difference in an 8x42 and 10x42 to agonize over. It's like the "difference" between the .270 and .30-06. What really matters is the quality of the binoculars (and most are VERY good these days) and how the hunter uses it, not whether it is 8x or 10x.

1

Mule Deer, have you tried the Leupold 8X32 HD binocular? How does it rate against other 8X32's, such as the Nikon LXL, Leica Ultravid, or the old Leica Trinovid?

Mr. Barsness
Can you give a short idea of how "wide angle" binoculars "gain" the extra viewing area. I have a 7x35 wa that has ,or so it says,
a view of 488 feet at 100 yards.

Thanks,
W Dew

The wider view mostly comes from shorter eye relief, less magnification, or both. Compact binoculars also tend to have narrower fields of view.

A 7X35 is pretty much a "naturally" wide-angled binocular.

I sprung for a 6x30 Leupold Yosemite and at just at one pound they are so much better to haul around than the heavier 7x35 that I had been using for the last few years. Very clear and bright. Just right for the woods hunting I do.

That's been my experience too, as well as that of a lot of hunters!

John,

Thanks for the great article. Would you still recommend the Pentax DCF's?

I didn't realize you lived in MT, cool!

Yeah, the DCF's are great binoculars.

I was born and raised in Bozeman, and lived here all except 6 years of my life (3 in Minnesota, 2 in South Dakota, 1 in Wyoming). Have lived in various parts of the state since then, but right now am back within an hour of Bozeman. Not a bad state!

If you are ever heading down this way again drop me a line.

Thanks John!

I haven't had a chance to review this entire thread. Does anyone have any experience with the stuff from Steiner?

Steiner glass has gotten a lot better in recent years, and some is pretty darn good. Howeve, I haven't seen any that is an outstanding buy for the money.

Any chance of an updated article like this? There have been some advances and new products since the original article as well as a number of good binoculars not tested. What I would like to see is a series for each category of Binoculars, compacts, mid size, and full size and eventually spotting scopes.

I have full size binos I like and want to add pocket and/or a mid sized set. My problem is my full sized binoculars are so good the smaller ones don't compare. At the same time I don't want to spend as much as I did on the primary binoculars for the smaller back up pair. I think this is a pretty common dilemma.

As I noted somewhere well back in this thread, I don't keep up with all the new optics like I used to. But one smaller binocular that I can heartily recommend for an "affordable mid-sized glass is the Leupold Yosemite 6x30. These can be purchased new for around $100.

Thanks for the quick response. That was one I was considering. If I can find one at that price that will be my next binocular.

John: Your article on "Best Buys in Binoculars" is excellent.
I have used binoculars daily, night & day as a Big Ship's Navigator...for over 33 years in my occupation. So...is to say that I have more than a tyro's experience with them. I basically lived with them. Anyway, your article IS excellent...but I find one point I differ with. And that is the omission of consideration of the older style porro prism binocs.
They have a few important points...one is that due to their construction, they are easier to hold comfortably in the hands...which leads to more steadiness, and thus better to view from. Also, not mentioned is their construction gives a greater depth of field, as opposed to the roof prism which puts view on near one plane. These points are important.
The "Birders" who are binocular fanatics also are keen on the porro prism old style types too. Nikon makes a genuinely great porro prism model called the "Superior E" Model. Its regarded as one of the very finest binoculars...some say the very best. I don't know if they are currently made...I got mine used on Internet sales. I think they may be special order. I would much rather have a pair of porro prisms that I can hold more comfortably & steadier than a roof prism pair that feels like I'm trying to pinch a ballet dancers butt!
Best Regards, Tom from Cody

Tom,

Thanks for your comments. At the time the article was written not many companies were offering good porro-prism binoculars, and I believe Nikon had already discontinued the "Superior E" line. At any rate, it hasn't been on their website or in their catalogs for a while. They really were great binoculars.

Today some companies are offering good porro-prism glass again, but binocular sales are still dominated by roof-prisms, and have been ever since shortly after phase-correction coating came into the industry around 1990.

Actually, porro prism binoculars don't provide greater depth of field. Instead, they provide a greater stereoscopic effect, due to the wider placement of their objective lenses. (Or at least they do in full-size models. Many compact porros have their objective lenses close together, with the eyepieces farther apart.) This provides more of a three-dimensional view.

I dunno about porros being more comfortable to hold. There are an awful lot of ergonomically designed roof prisms on the market today that are very comfortable to hold during long-term glassing.