I have been toying with the idea of buying a 9.3x62 for some of the bigger critters in North America and African plains game with the notion of having a substantially greater effect when the bullet collides with said animal in comparison to the 30-06 with 210 LRABs or 200/220 NPT.

Is there really a huge difference between the two when it comes to putting the bullet in the right place?

I am also curious as to which cartridge offers the cut off point where you will truly see a noticeable difference from a 30-06 with heavier bullets?

I've had considerable experience with both the .30-06 using 200-grain Nosler Partitions and the 9.3x62 using 286-grain Partitions. There's not a huge difference between them, but I would say the 9.3x62 kills quicker, especially on game larger than deer. Of course, there will be some overlap in performance, with the .30-06 putting some animals down quicker. But on average the edge would go to the 9.3x62.

My general observation is that once caliber is .35 or larger, it really starts to make a difference. Below that, not so much. But that impression isn't nearly as firm as the difference between the .30-06 and 9.3x62 with the two Partitions mentioned.

That's been my experience , sent 10's of moose to the freezer with a 35Whelen /250gr, a few with a 9.3/250gr a few more with a 375HH, a few more with a 30-06 168gr,180gr and 200gr bullets, and black bear and Mule Deer with them as well. Lately I've been using the 200gr NAB in the '06 @2700ish fps mv. I have to say I've been impressed.

Brad,

Yep! The .30-06 with the 200 Partition isn't a pop-gun.

Thanks fellas.

I keep reading that touching off a 9.3x62 is similar in recoil to a heavy loaded 06. I can only guess in rifles of similar dimensions and weight. I've also read that the availability of ammo is scarce with the 9.3 but I've seen it online without any real issues with normal inventories considered. Where I see the limitations is in the rifle platforms available. This will lead me to extra costs trying to modify whats out there to fit my needs or rather wants (Model 70ish features).

The 06 is easily dressed up in anything you could find, of course, but my thinking leads me to think its better to use the larger bore size if they're coming back at you in a similar fashion. Hence the conundrum!

In my experience the 9.3x62 comes back somewhat harder than a .30-06 of the same weight, but a lot depends on the load used. My heavy bullet load for the 9.3 gets around 2500 fps with the 286-grain Partition, at just about .30-06 pressures. The standard factory 286-grain load is listed at 2360, which still develops more recoil than the .30-06 with a 200 at 2650-2700.

That said, there is something to recoil velocity as well, and the 9.3x62 comes back less violently than any .300 magnum I've shot with 200-grain bullets at 2900 fps or so, even though recoil formulas show the .300 to come back with a similar amount of foot-pounds.

I just can't not like the 9.3x62; it's an appealing round and has a slim edge closer in if you're limited to using conventional bullets and willing to trade-off range, but not as much as larger bores where a big difference is important.

By comparison, heavy 30-06 loads are hard hitters as well... Placement trumps any difference that can be measured between the two, but I'd prefer an 06 loaded with 150-165 ttsx over any of the above loads for all around mayhem.

If going to Africa is on the platter, I wouldn't waste time with the 9.62, I'd really want to have a 375 HH for a lot of different reasons.

I think the next step "up" above a 30/06 or 300 mag is to a 375 caliber...I hear the 9.3 is pretty similar.

338 Win mag or 9.3x62mm...

I made 8 safari's to Zimbabwe during my hunting days. In those hunts I carried only 5 rifles, a 416 Rigby, a 375 H&H, a custom 7x57, a custom 30-06 and a Valmet 9.3x74r/12ga . I shot everything up to and including Elephant. I never used the 9.3x74r but did use the 12ga barrels. I have had absolutely no trouble taking up to Wildebeest with the 30-06 using 220gr partitions. I found it to be particularly effective for everything. Would not try it on Buffalo or Elephant but it worked well on Eland,Kudu,Wildebeest and such.I tried some Swift A-frames in it once but they just sailed right thru the Impala I was shooting for bait so I switched to 220gr Partitions and ended that problem. Never tried anything else since that one time. Except for Elephant I really never felt under armed with the 30-06 at any time when in Zimbabwe. It is effective without exception in my opinion.

I should probably also note that in 2011 I hunted Tanzania with several other people. My partner during most of the hunt used a .300 Winchester Magnum with 180-grain Nosler AccuBonds as his "light" rifle. I used a 9.3x62 with 286 Partitions. With a couple of exceptions, we shot the same basic array of plains game, including blue wildebeest and zebra, considered among the toughest plains game animals.

We were hunting in the Selous, not the more open country of northern Tanzania, and the longest shots were maybe 250 yards. There was no difficulty with the 180 AB's penetrating on any of my partner's animals, and we both shot pretty well. But after the trip he ordered a CZ 9.3x62 very soon after arriving home.
Maybe he wouldn't have if his rifle had been a .30-06 with 200's or 220's. I don't know.

JB, I think your old fave load of 200 NPTs in the '06 would just about be the shizzle. I had good luck with Hornady 190s out of a .300H&H and would not hesitate to use them, or any other good 190 in the '06

Yeah, the 200 Partition works really well. I've also used it some in the .300 Winchester and Weatherby, and it has never disappointed.

But then again neither has the 286 Partition in the 9.3x62. The very first animal I shot with it was a big British Columbia bull moose, Moose are notorious for taking a shot and just standing there, but he staggered a few steps and fell before I could even get the crosshairs on him again--and I'm pretty fast. He rolled down the hill, breaking a few medium-sized quaking aspens on his way.

My guide was a Cree named Donny Davis. He wasn't all that impressed with the moose falling so quickly, but as we butchered it he said, "That's a good cartridge! It kills good but doesn't shoot up meat!"

As it so happens, I just got done re-reading that story in " Born to Hunt" while I was on the John�.John!

Not to derail the thread but does the .35 Whelen also offer a noticable advantage over a heavy loaded .30-06? I hear conflicting reports.

That's probably because you'd have to kill a LOT of animals with each to come to any conclusion--and even then you might not.

Actually, about the only thing I know for sure anymore is putting the bullet in the right place is at least 90% of the deal.

My experience is the 35Whelen with 250gr bullets @~2600 fps does 'stagger' big animals better. But , the '06 with the 200gr NAB is right there for performance , the advantage of the '06 with a 200gr NAB is its ranging ability( technically a 500 yard set up) and many more choices of rifle off the shelf.

What about moving up even more in the '06? Specifically, I'm referring to the 220-gr. Partition (semi-spitzer) and the 240-gr. Protected Point that Woodleigh offers. For some reason, both bullets really appeal to me and Woodleigh designed their heavy with '06 performance in mind.

I used to really like my 35 Brown Whelen when I was in PA. Seemed like there was not so many bullets and no commercial ammo back then, so I got it real cheap.

I often used cast bullets and it has to be one of the most cast bullet friendly rounds there is...less recoil than a 338 Mag but a hard thumper to 400 yards no problem.

It got traded in on a 300 Weatherby so I could do justice to the 200 Nosler screw machine bullet.

The Weatherby had much better paper ballistics.

pinotguy,

Both the 220 Partition and 240 Woodleigh are very good bullets. The 220 Partition will normally out-penetrate the 240 Woodleigh, because it doesn't open as widely. (Contrary to popular belief, retained weight isn't the major factor in penetration of expanding bullets. Instead it's frontal area of the "mushroom.")
But if you want to make a big, pretty deep hole in something, the Woodleigh will do it.

TopCat,

One of the advantages of medium-bore cartridges like the .35 Whelen and 9.3x62 is they work pretty well with heavy "cup and core" bullets. In fact, that's the reason they became popular in the first place.

But on game bigger than deer, the so-called premium bullets will perform more consistently, especially in penetration.

I have always had a soft spot for .338 caliber bullets and have had two, a Win Mag and an RCM. After looking at the trajectory and energy of the 200 gr. loads out of the '06 I decided to give up on .338's and stick with my '06.

This is a pretty interesting thread. I think my 35 Whelen is an upgrade over the 30-06 when it comes to bigger animals but wonder how much more it is. Not going to get rid of it though it is still my favorite round. I never had any trouble with the 30-06 either on animals from deer to moose not surprisingly.

A bulet like the new 190 gr Nosler ABLR is a real interesting one in the good old 30-06 it looks like it could extend the useful rage of the round a lot farther than most people give it credit for. A 200 or even better the 220 gr Partition is going to be a real hammer at close range.

What about the Barnes original 250gr. bullet? I have a box of them

While the .308 diameter bullets give up a little diameter when compared with larger rounds, in my experience, both in test media as well as on really large game like moose and brown bears, the 200 and 220 gr Nosler partitions bullets from the 30-06 give virtually the same penetration as the 286 gr partitions in the 9.3x62 and the 300 gr partitions in the .375.
One would have to shoot an awful lot of game to really see any significant difference in killing ability between them, however I do think that the largest game the impact of the larger rounds is a little more apparent.

I noticed this bullet last week...pretty slick BC on it.

The ballistics from a 30-06 at 2500fps and 200gr NAB is impressive! I have some loaded up after reading about them somewhere on here or another site. Would make a heck of an elk round.

I have been using Sierras 220 gr RN bullets in my .06 for a lot of years and have killed a lot of elk with the. Sorry I am not an African Safari hunter. However at .06 velocities and my experiences with pass throughs ( lung shots) I fail to see why one needs a partition at .06 velocities. Even when heavy bone is mistakenly encountered, I have not been dissatisfied.

I know in the past that Mule Deer has stated he hasn't seen a use for the 220 gr C&C in an .06, but I find it a very useful bullet in what I hunt and the distances I shoot elk. Less than 200 yards, and mostly less than 100 yards.

Several times in my hunting career I have gotten the bug to replace the .06 with a 35 Whelen. Then I think about it for a few days, compare the ballistics of the 35 to a 220 gr slug in an .06 and can't convince myself there is a significant difference between the two.

I remind myself often that when the big magnum craze hit, everyone was saying they could send a heavier bullet down range at the same velocities as the non magnums. After a few years their tunes changed because of the greater recoil experienced. Then you heard everyone touting the benefits of the extra light mono bullets traveling at warp speed as being a lot better with great deal less recoil.

I suspect these bigger bores that are popular will see the same fate because of their more recoil

They make an excellent paperweight in a 20 MPH crosswind due to their superior SD/BC!

Out the box 9.3x62 rifles, I've had my hands on several CZ variations (American, full stock, carbine kevlar), two Ruger variations (standard African and fancy Circassian walnut version), and Sako may have a couple versions as well. Finding a used long action M70 is not difficult and would require nothing more than a rebarrel or rebore and rechamber. With the costs of hunting large bears in AK or hunting large game abroad, the money spent for such a rifle would barely put a dent in the overall price tag.

I intended to build a semi-custom 9.3x62 off either a 98 Mauser or a M70, I already have both donor rifles. But, I decided to look at the factory offerings for something out the box. I ended up with the Sako and am more than pleased, it has required no additional modifications to function without fail. I nearly pulled the trigger on the above mentioned cz carbine kevlar, and just recently, had my hands on two. I probably would have been happy if I went that route as well. In the long run, I may eventually build semi-customs off my two donor rifles, but that will wait till I have tons of money burning holes in my pockets as I tend to go overboard on such builds.

As for the chamberings, I don't recall a time in my adult life when I didn't own a 30-06 hunting rifle. I think it fair to say it has been my single overall favorite big game hunting chambering, especially with the heavier bullets, and I'd do well if a 30-06 was the only rifle I owned. But, with that said, I look at the 9.3x62 as a more efficient 30-06 capable of shooting even heavier bullets. I am now a huge fan of the 9.3x62 and it has become my favorite chambering for toting and shooting large game. Don't feel undergunned with the 30-06 and it would take a heaping pile of large game to definitively note the differences with the 9.3x62, but I've shot enough at this point to "feel" that the 9.3x62 holds an edge on large game, and it does so without the sharp recoil of the 338mag, or the added heft of the 375mag. I'm starting to form the opinion that the 9.3x62 will kill large game nearly as effectively as the 375mag. In addition, with certain 250 grain modern pressure loadings, it can run that bullet downrange on the heels of factory 338mag loads. So if you love the 30-06 shooting heavies and you're not a dyed in the wool magnum addict, you'll certainly love the 9.3x62.

Best

That's what I do too. I can't convince myself that the Whelen will give me anything over the 220 grain '06 which I like to use on moose.

Out the box 9.3x62 rifles, I've had my hands on several CZ variations (American, full stock, carbine kevlar), two Ruger variations (standard African and fancy Circassian walnut version), and Sako may have a couple versions as well. Finding a used long action M70 is not difficult and would require nothing more than a rebarrel or rebore and rechamber. With the costs of hunting large bears in AK or hunting large game abroad, the money spent for such a rifle would barely put a dent in the overall price tag.

I intended to build a semi-custom 9.3x62 off either a 98 Mauser or a M70, I already have both donor rifles. But, I decided to look at the factory offerings for something out the box. I ended up with the Sako and am more than pleased, it has required no additional modifications to function without fail. I nearly pulled the trigger on the above mentioned cz carbine kevlar, and just recently, had my hands on two. I probably would have been happy if I went that route as well. In the long run, I may eventually build semi-customs off my two donor rifles, but that will wait till I have tons of money burning holes in my pockets as I tend to go overboard on such builds.

As for the chamberings, I don't recall a time in my adult life when I didn't own a 30-06 hunting rifle. I think it fair to say it has been my single overall favorite big game hunting chambering, especially with the heavier bullets, and I'd do well if a 30-06 was the only rifle I owned. But, with that said, I look at the 9.3x62 as a more efficient 30-06 capable of shooting even heavier bullets. I am now a huge fan of the 9.3x62 and it has become my favorite chambering for toting and shooting large game. Don't feel undergunned with the 30-06 and it would take a heaping pile of large game to definitively note the differences with the 9.3x62, but I've shot enough at this point to "feel" that the 9.3x62 holds an edge on large game, and it does so without the sharp recoil of the 338mag, or the added heft of the 375mag. I'm starting to form the opinion that the 9.3x62 will kill large game nearly as effectively as the 375mag. In addition, with certain 250 grain modern pressure loadings, it can run that bullet downrange on the heels of factory 338mag loads. So if you love the 30-06 shooting heavies and you're not a dyed in the wool magnum addict, you'll certainly love the 9.3x62.

Best [/quote

I have a 9.3x66/370 Sako, down range it exceeds the 375HH 300gr load in energy with a 286gr bullet. The 370 Sako is in the realm of the 9.3x62 ,very close actually, Of the few big animals I have shot with 375HH and 9.3 , there is no discernible difference. I like the mediums except for the 338WM and as you say its sharp recoil, similar to an appropriate weight 308Win. I use the 06 as a go to (Sako Finnlight) general purpose hunting tool.

interesting thread. Few years ago had a friend with me while deer hunting. I had taken at that time a remington 760pump in 30.06, the carbine version with a 18inch barrel.
I had handloaded a 220 grain hornady round nose, to just about what 30.40kraig would be pushing that bullet. Friend was very negative about the combination, said it wouldn't be good past about 100 yards. And he didn't like the flat based bullet, or the round nose. I have a target somewhere with three or four holes touching each other with that round/gun. The older i get the more i think you don't have to have the word "magnum" attached to any of these rifles.

on additional thinking, I also have a 350remington magnum. And I have had the hots for a 35 whelen for years. Fron what i can tell the above are pretty much the same thing.
And so why would anyone want a 338.06?
I can say the year i took my buffalo with a 375 another guy with me punched one with the 338.06. It did kill it but it ran whereby the one i shot did a bang flop.

About ten years ago, I killed two elk in about ten seconds with the 220 gr Sierra RN. I want back there in the summer with a rangefinder.Laser it at 347 yards. One of the very very few times I shot at that distance.

Like a lot of other things, people who rant about things not working have never tried it.

when I started hunting elk all my mentors carried various 30/06 rifles, most of those gentlemen assured me at the time that the remington 760 slide action and loaded with peters 220 grain round nose bullets , and a 4x scope were the ideal and well tested elk hunting combo that could hardly be improved on.
given that these guys were old experienced hunters in there 40s-60s and I was about 18 years old at the time I took their word and purchased and used a similar combo the first two years.
Now ranges where I was hunting seldom exceeded 150-200 yards and the combo was almost constantly used by most of the guys in camp,until the remington 7600 in 35 whelen became available, when the few remaining guys from the original group members swapped to the whelen.
the third year I had purchased a 340 wby.

when I started hunting elk I used a 30/06 on the advise of my mentors who had been hunting elk for decades, the first elk I shot all ran, at the shot, giving no instant & obvious sign they were hit, yet all of those elk died inside of 30-70 yards of where they were hit, being young, I was convinced I needed a larger caliber, I swapped to a 340 wby after reading every article on hunting elk I could find,and while Ive had a few elk run, since, Ive never yet had one give no indication it was hit, now its not knocking the crap out of them like I expected or knocking them down every time or giving instant kills, every time, in fact a single hit from the larger rifles is no more deadly than the 30/06 loaded with the 200 grain and 220 grain bullets that were almost the standard load in our elk hunt group, ,both rifles kill with a single well placed shot, but most of the elk Ive shot since with my 340 wby and 375 H&H seem to act dazed, disoriented or staggered on bullet impact,when I use the 340 wby or 375 H&H and few move more than a few dozen yards, many stagger around then fall some drop on impact.
yes in my experience the heavier calibers kick harder , and require heavier rifles, and ammo costs more, they still don,t drop every elk instantly, but there has been a marked increase in elk that act dazed and stunned, and shorter distances traveled once hit in my experience

My 9.3x62 is a CZ 550 with the Lux style stock. I'm very impressed with how that Bavarian cheek piece stock design handles recoil. My 375 H&H gun is a Remington 798 Safari. It has a classic American style straight stock. It knocks the snot of of me compared to the Lux. I realize the 375 has a thousand additional foot-pounds of energy over my 9.3x62.... But I believe that the Lux style better handles the felt recoil. YMMV of course.

I am definitely in the 220 grain RN Camp when it comes to the 06.... Shot a buck in Wisconsin once across a swamp.. figured the shot was right at 300 yds...

The 2 x 7 Leupold Shotgun scope was set on 2 power.....

had to walk way around the swamp and then look for the deer...

when I found it, it had a small entrance wound about the size of a dime... and an exit would about the same size... only a few drops of blood on the ground along with 3 kernels of corn...

during the gutting process, cut it open and even tho a small entrance and small exit wound... its lungs looked like someone stirred them with a chain saw...

that high sectional density bullet gets going, it takes a lot to slow it down...

only reason I saw for anything bigger for my needs was having a 338/06 built... and in that one, I feed it mainly 250 grain RNs...I figure both as 250 yd guns...

I have a 300 Win Mag and a 338 Win Mag or two....for when I think I need a LONGER distance capability....I load a 300 Win Mag hot with a 220 grain RN, running at 2950+....and yeah it is hot... using H 1000... but it is both accurate and capable...
and is a lot flatter shooting than folks think a RN would be...

I don't doubt a bit what 340mag is saying. I question though of when enough is enough. I don't have big problem with an elk running 30-50 yards after hit. I am a predominant double lung shooter and you have to give them time to die, which is about ten seconds. Every animal uses that ten seconds differently.

I have killed elk with a 44mag carbine,50 cal ML 45-70, 30-30,7 mag,.308 and 06 at least.In all truth fullness I can't say I have seen a noticeable difference in the killing ability of any of them as long as the bullet was put in the right place. Generally I like a heavy for caliber bullet.

I totally agree with Seafire's methods, but I can't handle the recoil of the big thumpers.

"Several times in my hunting career I have gotten the bug to replace the .06 with a 35 Whelen. Then I think about it for a few days, compare the ballistics of the 35 to a 220 gr slug in an .06 and can't convince myself there is a significant difference between the two."

Personally, I think a 225 gr. bullet in the .35 Whelen just might be the best way going. Recoil is in the same class as a 30-06 with a 220 gr.from the 30-06 and they carry much farther than mny people give them credit for doing. I shoot the 225 gr. Barnes TSX in my Whelen at 2710 FPS. (yes it's a very hot load but OK in my rifle.) So far I've only shot three elk with it but two were bang flops/DRT on the spot. Number three was hit a bit too far back, my fault but at impact she went down and was anchored on the spot and required a finisher. No bullet was recovered from these elk. I use the 25's because shots where I hunt can be way out yonder. One elk was shot at 350 yards.
I have a few Nosler AB's and PT's to play with in the 225 gr. weight so I'll be seeing how my rifles likes them as soon as it warms up a bit. I prefer doing work ups when it around 80 degrees or higher as pressure signs show up sooner.
I'm finding theis thread interesting so I'll play with some 200 gr. and 220 gr. bullets in my 06 as well.
Paul B.

The 30-06 , 200 gr Nosler Partitions and Hod 4831 is a Big Game Thumper for sure .

A 200 gr Accubond 30-06 at 300 yards will 260 fps faster, have about 260 ft lbs more energy and 2" less drop than your load. The same bullet from a 300 mag beats the 35 Whelen by an even wider margin with about the same recoil as 225-250 gr bullets from the Whelen.

I have no doubt both work. If someone primarily hunts elk size or larger game I can see taking advantage of the larger diameter bullets. But for most of us who want the versatility to shoot lighter 150 gr or so bullets really flat for deer size game with the same rifles the medium bores just aren't worth it. Not when a heavy 30 comes so close.

I've owned both 35 Whelen and 338-06 in the past. Neat rounds, but after looking real hard at the numbers, and finding recoil with both of them with heavier bullets to equal 300 mag recoil with 180-200 gr bullets sold both.

So....you guys who have used both see no difference between the heavies in the 30/06 and the much larger frontal/cross sectional area offered by the 35 Whelan bullets?

I would think this is not so much a "numbers" game as it is seeing a larger amount of damage in terms of wound channel, no?

Would you guys also say there is no point in going to a 9.3x62 either, over a 30/06 with heavies 200-220 gr?

Great question Bob, but not sure I want the answer. This may kill my justification for wanting a 9.3x62....

You don't need justification�just rationale�..

In all reality, no. However, need is rarely the issue. It's the "want" that has to get satisfied



You can't tell me those aren't sexy

I agree about the paperweight idea. I've never tried to launch one of these. Kind of skeered to ....:



308 win case shown below it for size comparison..

While the 30-06 with ~ 200gr bullets, especially bullets like the NP and NAB, put the 06 at an increased level of awesome. As stated before the mediums like the 35 and 9.3 ,in my experience, just seem to stagger big animals at the shot. I started hunting with a 7mag/175gr bullets , shot many moose and b bears with it, can only remember a couple animals that fell at the shot, didn't find the 338mag much better, in comes the 35Whelen `25yrs ago and one shoot knock downs became the norm. I guess the power level was sufficient but the 35 was much more 'controllable' allowing just enough better shot placement, Same can be said with the 06/200gr combination as compared to the magnums. The 35Whelen has been sold off and my heavy caliber rifle today is a 9.3x66Sako ( a muscular 35Whelen) it is controllable in a lighter weight rifle than the 375HH I once had and kills just as well as the 35 and 375. Another thing I have noticed ,after being a Barnes X user for 20+years, is the NAB bullet seems to put big animals down better, my experience is limited with them but every time I use one to kill game it impresses me more, this idea may be feedstock for another thread. And, to the question Take the 9.3 for big nasty animals, the 06 for general purpose.

Brad, I have been impressed with the larger Accubonds as well. In particular the 358 200 and 225 gr slugs along with the 375 260 gr. I traded off my 375 now since my Whelen does pretty much the same thing but it kicks less and I shoot it much better than a 375 in the field. Sounds like the 9.3mm Accubond is every bit as good as the 35 and 375 versions. The 30 cal 200 gr Accubond is an interesting one, I had a great load with them but sold my 30-06 before taking any game with them, the 180 gr AB worked well though.

When I was young and dumb and did not know anything about BCs ,SDs or had no idea about the MV of my bullets I used a Post 64 Win.70 in 30/06.Being young and dumb I bought Winchester 180 grain round nose ammo and proceeded to shoot Elk,Moose,Bear and Beer with them.Funny thing they died just as fast as my much more savvy hunting partners 300 Weatherby mag.Now that I know better I would never use that combination for hunting anything much larger than a snowshoe hare.

Its a good thing you learned from your experience�.

For me the 30,06/220 load work and performance on Alaska game made giving up the (4) .338 Win rifles I use to think I needed. RE 22 is your friend and both Nosler and Hornady 220s shoot really well at 2600FPS. On a bear hunt after everyone tagged out and we still had days to trawl back to Whittier, we amused ourselves shooting at a yard square exposed rock at low tide. Range was about 400 yards. The rock was getting smaller with the flood tide so the shooting pace increased. Two sports had .270s I 220s in the '06. I was not embarrassed and the skipper (a 280 maniac) said he thought we all had 270s because the boom/splat time seemed to be the same for all three shooters. Where the 35s fit in is, to me with the even bigger range of fun bullets to play with especially cast lead. In this day of poor component availability the "Galena Guys" still are shooting. 32 gr of 2015 and a heavy .357 bullet is even more fun than a .22, but, not as much fun as a .22 and a girl with freckles.

250 Gr Barnes 06 load

I used the 250 Gr orig. Barnes in a orange box, factory load in my 06 on a rag horn Elk.

Busted a herd of elk, cow called and a young bull came towards me.
Above it elevation wise, held top of shoulders bull stepped up as I shot, and hit between horn base. It broke the horn base, no tracking involved!

Kind of a neat load in my Rem. 760 06 180 gr was 2" high and 250 was zeroed at 100 yards.

I would think the new 190 ABLR or 210 ABLR in the 30-06 would be pretty deadly. They shed alot of weight up close, at the 3000 and above speeds, but I think slowed down outta the gate, such as the way a 30-06 would launch them, they would be very good. Plus, you would retail a whole lot of energy downrange, even starting that 190 out at 2700 or so.

I've used the 200 grain Nosler Partition at 2650 out of my 30/06 on three antelope, one at 426 yards. One thing that stood out was the resounding "Thwack!" when they hit.

Serfs in my state aren't allowed to use rifle on deer, so my experience with rifles killing stuff is limited.

My question is don't midweight Barnes monos like the TSX make heavy 30/06 bullets obsolete?

They do. But we all still do things we should not...

Not if you don't like to use monos.

BC's of the X bullet are not in the same league as the AccuBond's, the 200gr in the 06 makes it a 500yd deal the 168gr X bullet about 300yds where performance drops off sharply.

No they just make the money in your wallet obsolete.

Brad,good reply.

What you said sounds an awful lot like what Bill Steigers of Bitterroot Bullets told me years back about the 35 Whelan, compared to smaller stuff, and especially on larger animals.

I think that if I were forced to live out the rest of my days with one rifle/cartridge/bullet it would be a Pre-64 Model 70 in .30/06 shooting Nosler's 200-grain Partition.

And there would be a fixed-power Leupy on top.

Jocko I think that combination would cut a pretty big swath.

OOHHHH, you are such a rebel...

The iron sights would be sighted in, too.

I take the belt-and-suspenders approach to life.

While I have an 06 and use 30 caliber 200's hunting, I always find myself firing them from my 300 Weatherby.

I do believe the extra velocity is useful in the field, and have a very nice mule deer that I am convinced would have escaped had I been using a lesser round.

Even though I have had that rifle for decades, I have bought mediums, a 358 Win, a 338 RCM, and a 416. But it is more the form factor of the rifles than the performance of the cartridge that determines which one I carry.

358 Norma would also be nice, however not likely to find ammo on a store shelf. Similar to the 9.3x62 but a bit better trajectory and a bit more horsepower. This round seems like an ideal option to me, not that there is anything wrong with the others.

Loaded some 200 gr partitions in '06 today for a spring bear hunt.

I'm liking this. So I guess a 195gr.Interlock out of a 8x57 would be about the same?

And the 200-grain 8mm Partition would be mo' better.

Recent test I did comparing the 30 cal to 35 cal.



https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...0_WSM_VS_350_Rem_Mag_heavy_b#Post8529306

Exactly. Keep an eye out for SPS, as they have those on sale quite often. Blemished or factory over runs, it makes no difference to me..

Too funny. My '06 is a 70's BDL with a Leupy 6-36 w/ LR reticle, and the irons are sighted in for the 165 Interlocks she's sighted in for. I do plan one day to buy some 200/220s and sight them in for gits and shiggles. I also plan on dropping in in a Mcmillan.

To boot, I really am a belt and suspenders guy. Literally.

I agree with this, the jumps in my experience go .30/06, .375H&H, .460 Wby.

With those 3 you can see a difference in performance if you get to kill enough animals.

I dunno if I've killed "enough" game, but I reckon I can see a difference when making the step from my 270 Win and 130g bullets to the 30-06 with 180 grainers.

Especially on pigs, and especially at less than optimum shot angles, the 30-06 whops them faster.

My shooting is varied. Some standing shots at undisturbed animals, some at running animals. Pigs, goats, deer. The odd scrub bull or wild horse.

The difference is less noticeable when I use 150 or 160 grainers in the 270, but it is still discernible especially on running game.

My next project is based on the 338 WM and while I have an open mind, I believe its likely the step up from the 30-06 will be also noticeable.

I think that there is a difference between "whop" and "kill." It depends on what a guy is wanting out of his chambering.

For example, the 243 "kills" deer just as fast and well as a 30-06, IME. However, the 30-06 provides way more "whop" factor at the initial hit.

I think heavy 30s versus 35s and up have the same differences, though I think the "whop" really gets going at 375.

I think you are right. I have seen the same thing with those 2 cartridges on Aussie feral game and have reported it here before.

I look at it this way, the .30/06 is to 200 pound animals what the .375H&H is to 800 pound animals. There certainly is marginal jump that can be noted as well as a differential that is more obvious over a range of kills.

I am lousy at math; but some stuff is obvious.

A 375 has the same(or more) bore diameter advantage over a 338, that a 338 bore has over a 30 caliber,and this does not take into account the area of the bullets within the circumference(cross sectional area?)....so the "jump" from 30 caliber to 375 is very substantial. It is not unusual for a 375 bullet to expand to 3/4"....that's a pretty big frontal area,along with tough bullet construction to keep it penetrating.The cartridge and its bullets have always had a reputation for penetrating well.

Couple that with the fact that a 375 has roughly the same velocity with a 300 gr bullet that a 30/06 has with a 200-220 (2500-2600 fps),and it makes for a pretty potent package,and a very substantial "jump" moving from 30 caliber.

dakota and aussie,

thanks for the feedback. i thought my inelegant technical term of whop factor might cause some consternation!

in any case, particularly on running game that are clearly very charged up, i do notice the difference in speed of the kill with the larger bullet.

in any case i am predicting the new 338 running 250g interlocks will whop em good!

- bob

ps sorry about the lower case. new device.

The 30-06 with 220's ?
The 338 with 250's ?
The 9.3x62 with 286's ?
The .375 with 300's ?
The .416 with 400's ?
Or 458's with 500's ?

What I really want to know is which is better - the .270 or the 30-06 ?

Often wondered about that myself ; was hoping someone would get around to discussing it.......

A friend and I shot 2 bull moose side by side, one was ~1000 lbs the other ~1200 lbs, The larger took 3 well placed .358/250gr bullets to knock down , his 308Win 180gr bullets took one on the 1000 lb animal. Both were dead at the first hit but a surgically placed 308 rolled the animal. This past season 30-06-200gr NAB put my moose, ~800lbs, down so quick all 4 legs were in the air, he was hit in the sweet spot. So, yes use enough bullet , at the correct speed for it to perform in a cartridge and rifle that you can control for those surgical hits.

Moose, aside from CNS hits, tip over for their own reasons and in their own time. I can think of only three moose I've shot which tipped over at the shot. The first was with a 190 Hornady out of a 30-06 through the bare slats at under 50 yards; the next a <200 yard shot with a 225 XFB in the 340 through both scapula knuckles; the last a 213 yard shot with a 250 Gameking from 340 that angled forward past the kidney. (That was really a poor shot, but you'd never know it by the effects.) I've shot moose that took four shots without tipping over from any of them, one of those even with a 340 and 850 grains of gross bullet weight.

There are so many variables, I don't know that one would be able to easily quantify a solid answer.

Well that wasn't really the point I was making. Moreso, that in many instances I can tell the differences.

Fur sure, some of them give it up easier than others. Get allot more first shot knock downs with bullets in .358, .366 and .375, not so much with the 30's and under.

I no longer use a bullet lighter than 180gr on deer. I've used same load on pigs. They work well. In 338 or 35 caliber I use 250 grain no sense in using a light bullet when you can use a heavy. Light bullets suck.

This last sentence is, I think accurate, and applicable to every situation with any species of game animal.

The trail is leading to the .284 Win.

This thread has been officially baptized as we head down the comparison of 270 vs. 30-06 only to be trumped by a 284 of some sort!

I think you would be fine with any mentioned in this thread. Not trying to state the obvious and certainly as a fellow looney, if the 9.3x62 is intriguing you, go for it! We are lucky to live in a place (so far) where we can enjoy such choices.

For recoil, so many variables. My 35 Whelen in CDL is more pleasant than some 270's and '06's in other platforms I have shot.

I'd go for the 9.3x62mm too. Mine is an absolute sweet shooter and knocks the heck out of elk (only had it long enough to shoot 1 elk). Hey, for those of you looking for a good deal on the 180 gr. partition for your 06, here it is:

http://www.shootersproshop.com/nosl...0-180gr-partition-spitzer-blem-50ct.html

These are the epitome of elk killing bullets in the good ol '06...

But they don't work, and you can see why........can't hit with them, even at 300 yards, and even on yer hind legs. (Alright, so that was a moose that walked in the way and then staggered around momentarily.... )

Lucky shot. Have been told that game cannot be killed unless it's an AI! Grin

I didn't recover my 9.3 286 partition. Here's how the blemished bullets shoot in that ol girl:






I'm still trying to figure out why they are called "blemished"...

.30'06 of course!

I just assumed it was a rhetorical question. We all know which one is better

I'd consider the .270, IF it was loaded strictly with the 180-gr. Protected Point from Woodleigh. That's a righteous bullet, IMO.

Awesome picture BSA! That 9.3x62 is very alluring. I love my Whelen and 338 Win Mag, but it wouldn't take me much prodding to do a 9.3x62 either.

Well when the gal gets mad, would rather be hit with a slimjim or a braut?

Yeah, it didn't take much prodding for me either. I was actually wanting to get a 375 H&H pre 64, but then saw how much they wanted for those and quickly changed my mind. This rifle came up locally and I couldn't turn it down. I later fell into a sweet deal on my 375 H&H, so all is well now ..Your 35 newton is every bit as good as a 9.3x62mm though .. Probably a little harder on the shoulder though .

What about the Sierra 200 grain GameKing? This is one we don't hear much about in the 30-06 or anything else; perhaps for a reason. Anyone with experience? Seems it would have a tougher jacket than lighter weight .30 cal. Sierras. Maybe a good elk bullet?

For sure. It is a great bullet. I use the 250 gr. sierra GK in my 338 win mag and it knocks the hell outa elk. I don't see why the 200 gr. 30 cal would be any different.

If you own a Whelen there is no reason to get a 9.3x62.

....and vice versa...Kind of 2 peas in a pod huh Ed. That may not stop my good buddy beretzs though. He's a big time rifle loony . He has an awesome pre 64 Alaskan 338 as well.

How the heck did you take two elk at 350 yards with an 06 and a 220 grain, not knowing what distance they were at? Man, I really suck.

Are you suggesting that people can't hit stuff without their range-finder nowadays?

How so, the 168 loses that much more energy after 300 yds?

No, I'm suggesting I can't. With a 200 grain out of an 06 at 350 yards, it had to be dropping pretty good, one would have to have a pretty good idea how far those elk were. I don't think I could differentiate between 300 and 350, and those fifty yards with a 200 grain dropping I wouldn't think leaves a lot of room for error.

I am prejudice against that bullet.. one of the biggest deer I ever shot went down at that shot, 100 yds away... while I was running toward him, He got half up and shook his head and took off into the swamp.... right as the northern sun was dropping right at the last day of MN deer season....

even with a huge blood splat all over the snow.. including a bunch of hair....Sieera's tech line, told me that bullet was probably flying too fast at that distance to open up.. probably passed right thru the buck....

This was out of a 300 Win Mag, but I have to admit... I haven't used it ever since...

the ammo was Federal Factory "premium stuff"....circa 1988 or so...

I am a fan of a good old fast stepping 220 grain RN...

Is it possible you were just unlucky Seafire?

Example, last Sunday I shot a half size boar pig eating a dead pig next to a ground tank. About a 30kg animal, or the size of a labrador. Hit him under the ribs on the left side from about 50 metres, the bullet exited which was obvious at the time because dust flew up behind.

But he runs doesn't he? Another hit, this time on the run at 70 metres, further back and a little high and he's down.

On examination, the 130g PMC soft point at a chronied 3050fps MV from my 270 has punched through the vitals, exited via the right shoulder and left a 3 inch exit wound, and he still ran! I was lucky the scrub was not thicker around that tank, I probably wouldn't have got that second shot and lost him maybe.

Just bad luck. You might be being a little hard on that Sierra bullet because of your experience, is all I'm trying to say.

Ssshhhhhhhhh!!

Don't tell anyone.... I got a reputation to keep around here...

we'll just keep that between you, me and a few hundred fellow campfire members...

I held slightly above hairline at top of back. It dropped into the lower chest. Both did not take a step. Sorry, it's been a few years and I can't remember the exact shot placement This was the year that CO permitted three elk tags. I had purchased the third tag for the 4th season, but we had to leave as a big snow storm came in. We were north of Vail and almost did not make it out.

I don't think the 220 drops as drastically as you think and you have at least a foot for error in an elk's chest.

A lot of us older hunters are more familiar with our rifle's capabilities and guesstimating distances than the younger set who depend on range finders.

I have shot a lot of NRA matches in the past with the last leg being 20 rounds slow fire, prone, at 600 yards. I pretty much know what a 30-06 will do and what 300yards looks like.
The top photo is what it looked liked weather wise, the 2nd or 3rd day we were there,3rd season.

That's exactly what my best friend and I agreed on in the mid 1990's. The Highpower Matches we attended gave us the confidence to make the shots that otherwise we may have passed up.

There are only three ranges for me when I hunt - Too far, aim dead center or hold high.

OK, I admit I'll parse it a little finer than that, and maybe a little higher than the top line of the back, but those two generalities take care of any range under what I feel I need to laser, and that varies with the gun.

Pretty much if you hit anywhere from the spine to the bottom of the heart, you will have meat.

Yep!!

That was what I wasthinking. And I think many folks don't enjoy the benefits of wide open shooting spaces which also helps develop skills. I can sit on our porch at camp for instance, and my wife can say, "see that ice chunk out there? Let's see you hit it first shot. Or, let's see you hit it three in a row." Not saying any of that is "sure-thing" shooting especially considering that you not only don't know the actual distance, but you also can't know size for sure either.

Another thing that's fun, kind off topic, but shooting the tips of largely submerged rocks as they are exposed briefly between the swells. In that case you can know the distance if you choose, but timing the shot and placing it well can mean a solid "splat" without a splash. Those are trade-offs that make $7-11 gas and $14 milk seem very worthwhile sometimes.

Goes like this , 168gr TSX-BT(BC .404) at 2900fps mv compared to a 200gr Accubond (BC .588) at 2700fps mv, 300yds 1862/2253, 400yds 1543/1984, 500yds 1270/1740, 600yds 1039/1522 ft/lbs respectively. Combination of Ballistic Coefficient of the bullet and speed, down range the higher BC bullet will retain more speed/velocity . So in my 30-06 the 200gr Accubond is the best choice for far away big big game.

With a 100yard zero 168gr TSX-BT/ 200gr Accubond. 300yds -12.67/-13.79, 400yds -28.92/-30.37, 500yds -53.62/-55.14, 600yds -88.57/-88.59 inches. virtually the same flight path with more energy and more bullet to do more destruction. I've killed moose with both and the 200gr NAB does a much more decisive job.

Wow, I had no idea a a 200 grain would hold its fps better than a 168grn. Somewhere along the line I was lead to believe the 168 grain was about the best long range option for an 06, I guess I need to reassess and study that some more.

Of the two loads you mentioned, would you happen to know how the two compare in recoil lbs?

Thanks.

Wow, I had no idea a a 200 grain would hold its fps better than a 168grn. Somewhere along the line I was lead to believe the 168 grain was about the best long range option for an 06, I guess I need to reassess and study that some more.

Of the two loads you mentioned, would you happen to know how the two compare in recoil lbs?

Thanks. [/quote

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp There is a recoil comparator at this sight. My 200gr load uses 54gr RL-17 and the 168gr load uses 58gr H4350 and using a rifle of 8lbs , the 200gr load is 22.64, 168gr load 20.49 ft/lbs or ~ 10% difference. Also the 200gr load drifts 16.55" vs the 168gr loads 22.36" at 500yards in a 10 mph wind at 90 degrees to the flight path.

Furprick is right...I ran this stuff through the bullistics calculator.There are minor differences along the way but by the time you get to 500 yards, from a 250 yard zero,the two bullets are identical for drop, and the 200 gr AB wins for wind..his numbers are spot on.

Two heavies, the 200 AB and the 190 IL...



fired into (sea) ice at 100-150 yards from a 30-06. It's not a realistic test medium, but at least they held up. (They actually look very similar to the 140 NPT and 139 IL I shot into ice at around 100 a week ago.)

Klik a pal used the 200 AB @ app 3100 fps(300 Weatherby) on a bull elk this fall; both recovered bullets looked "good", about like yours.

That 200 AB is a great bullet. It has worked so well for my buddy in his 300 RUM I was irratated I couldn't get them to shoot as well as I wanted for the WSM, I sold the WSM. Ha. They open real nice and penetrate great. Tough bullets. Never thought of trying them in a 30-06 but it seems like they would be very serious bullets at 30-06 speeds.

That explanation seems to reflect a basic mis-understanding of potential causative factors...I don't think less velocity would have helped... but I'll buy that 200gr is constructed too heavily for smaller, light bodied game.

An AB/BT, SST, A-Max, Partition would have been more better. Or even a lowly Win Power Point.

When I look at terminal performance, my mind does not naturally gravitate to Sierra.

Hmmmm...

Let's see now... a .300 mag is a waste of powder because a .30-06 is "just as good". Right? Then is a .308 Win "just as good" because there's minimal difference between it and a .30-06?

I just can't agree... and not sorry 'bout that!

A .300 Win Mag has a 300 fps advantage over the '06 firing the 200 AB starting out! That gives it a 150 yd advantage. Anything the .30-06 can do at 300 yards the .300 Win can do at 450! I see that as a distinct advantage! Or anything the '.06 can do at 25 yards (griz?) the .300 Win can do at 175 yards!

That's why I've owned a bunch of .300 magnums and never another .30-06 since 1985.

If I really wanted a milder .308 Something it would be the .308 Winchester, because with it I could really have a handier package.

And 3000 ft-lbs from a 200gr/.308-cal in a .30-06 is NOT comparable to 4000 ft-lbs from a 286gr/.366-cal in a 9.3 X 62! Those are facts, not hyperbole.

It may very well be that one doesn't need that extra 1000 ft-lbs for most situations, but it may very well be that all one really needs is a .308 Winchester for all North American big game.... on second thought, maybe I should go purchase a .303 British for $75 and be happy with that since every big-dangerous game in N.A. has been taken cleanly with it including polar bear!

Oh wait, OTOH, Inuit have taken the white bears with .223s and .243s, and a native girl shot and killed a world-record grizzly with a lowly single-shot .22LR !!!! Man, am I over gunned!


Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I have both, the 9.3 has about 2x the recoil of the 30-06, but I have not seen 2x the killing power. I like 300Winchester for heavy high BC bullets for long range.

2x the recoil? Is this a serious statement? You have not provided any parameters for comparison.

A.O. Bush;

And how do YOU measure 2X "the killing power"? Have you shot a game animal 2X the size with the 9.3 as you have with the ".06?

Dead is DEAD! Right? You can't kill a deer 2X "deader" with a 9.3 X 62 than you can with an '06! Or not even a 800 lb bull elk at 150 yards! But what about a 2000 lb bison at 250 yards? And how many well-placed shots?

Phil Shoemaker "stopped" a big wounded brown bear with his .30-06, but they were 2 very fast well-placed shots using premium 200gr Noslers! I don't know of anyone who would be as fast as Phil! If he'd used his .458 with 450gr A-Frames, would it have taken 2 shots to stop the bear? Or his 9.3 X 62 using 286 Noslers?

Maybe he can tell us!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

The recoil calculator for my two 7.5 lb Sako M85's, state the 30-06 with 200 gr bullet ,54 grains of powder at 2700 fps will have 24.15 ft/lbs of recoil. My 9.3x66 with 286 grain bullets and 68grains of powder at 2500 fps will recoil at 41.16 ft/lbs, so almost 2X the recoil.

I have shot animals that weighed twice as much as each other, 600 and 1200 pounds. The 9.3 is more decisive than the 30caliber whether magnum or not. All animals fell to the ground with well placed shots which is much easier with the light recoiling rifle. With this in mind , the heavy recoiling rifle needs more attention for good shooting, therefore shots are much nearer because of aiming error, 150 yards but not past 200. You can't see 2x the killing power but you can feel 2x the recoil, so is 2x recoil worth 1x killing power.

You didn't really answer the question, but from your answer you're suggesting that you killed a 600 lb game animal with a .30-06 and a 1200 lb game animal with a 9.3 X 62.

What's the heaviest game animal you've shot with a .30-06? If it's 1200 lbs, then at what range and how many shots? In answering the question with fairness, you would have to shoot a 2400 lb game animal (a big bison?) at the same range with the same number of shots from the same quality bullets placed appropriately into vitals to know that the 9.3 X 62 does or doesn't have 2X the killing power or ONLY 1X the killing power of a.30-06!!

From your answer I conclude that you don't know the answer because you've never been in a situation to conclude anything of the nature of your answer (2X the recoil for 1X the killing power). If your answer were true, then we wouldn't have .35 Whelens, .338 Win Mags or 9.3X 62s, or even the great .375 H&H or a .375 anything. You answer simply doesn't present any logic.

As I previously suggested, none of us would choose even the .30-06, because we could all get along fine with less and less recoil, like in a .223 Remington!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

He has tons of experience, probably doesn't want to argue with you.

No argument on my behalf. A well placed shot with a 30-06 , with the appropriate bullet for the game and distance, will kill as well as any of the mediums. The 9.3 will kill in a more dramatic fashion then the 30-06 generally. I have shot moose to 1200 pounds live weight with both. If I know I'm hunting a big animal I will use the 9.3, for everything else up to and including big animals the 30-06 is enough, Most opportunities are inside 150m. The 9.3 recoils as much as 2x of the 30-06, much easier to shoot well. The bullet has to penetrate the vital organs, that's all.
As far as going less and less, there is a point of diminishing returns. the 30-06 seems to intersect the high's and lows of cartridge performance , in terms of trajectory, on game performance , recoil tolerance, choices of rifles available. There are better tools/cartridges for a given task and they will encompass some of the attributes of the 30-06.

Yes....definitely.
There are 3 levels of performance that you can see in the field:
1. 270 and most everything either side of it.
2. 375 Holland and Holland.
3. .460 Weatherby.

The 35 Whelen does all that I need. I may not be widely available, but it is a tried and true go-to cartridge.

If you need the power of a 460 Weatherby use an RPG instead. The felt recoil is less

If you are looking for penetration (and I believe that is the secret to "killing" power in any cartridge) you'd be really hard pressed to beat a 190-220 grain bullet from a .30-06.

However, if what you are looking for is more reaction to the shot and "quick kills" that begins at about .35 caliber (maybe at .338...but it's not as reliable). Can't explain it and can't prove it by ballistics, but years of experience tells me this is true. Even a low velosity...low power.... round such as the .35 Remington will outperform the .30-06 at ranges under 100 yards. At longer ranges velosity starts to make a difference, but nat "real world" hunting distances big bore makes a difference.

At 200 yards (where most deer are actually killed) a bigger bore size will work better. If 300 yard shots are an option (actually quite rare in the real world) then something like the .338 Magnum or .375 H&H (with lighter bullets) might be appropriate, but for 90% of the "real world" hunting situations the .338 Federal, .358 Winchester or even a 9.3x62mm would be right.

Hell, at "real world" distances of under 100 yards (where most deer are actually killed) the .35 Remington, .375 Winchester, .44 magnum, .444 or the .45-70 are probably better choices than the .30-06

The .270 would be fine....but only if you were hunting gay animals. For real manley-man animals it's got to be .30-06 or more.

The secret to the .30/06 is that it has just a little more caliber and just a little bullet weight for the average game hunted and the recoil is just inside the average persons capability in order to place those bullets well.

The same thing can be said for the .375 H&H when used on animals over 600 pounds. Just a little.more enough, to make a discernable difference.