This 25 year old "tanger" I recently found has stifled my desire for a 9.3x62 (Ruger #1-S) and may keep the pre'64 .338WM in the rear portion of the safe.
I can run some numbers, but haven't decided on 200's, 225's or the 250 version.
I have been re-reading my Outdoor Life collection from the 50's and 60's and opened the Feb. '58 issue to Lee Brown extolling the virtues of the 35 Whelen on elk. As this may become my dedicated elk rifle as well as the brown bear cartridge for Alaska, what do you think when comparing it against the other two?

I have shot all three, never hunted them. 225 TTSX for thumping, 180 cast or jacketed pistol bullets for plinking. Even a 180 TTSX for deer and pigs would be a heck of a slap.

I still want to build a 358 Norma on my VZ24 action.

When loaded to the same approximate pressure, the 9.3x62 will produce about the same muzzle velocities as the .338 Winchester Magnum with the same bullet weights. The 9.3mm bullets won't have ballistic coefficients quite as high as the .338's, but at "normal" hunting ranges a 250-grain 9.3 at 2650-2700 will have essentially the same trajectory as a 250-grain .338. And recoil will be noticeably less in the 9.3, given similar rifle weight and stock shape.

The 9.3 will get around 75-125 fps more than the .35 Whelen given the same bullet weight, pressure and barrel length. The standard twist of .35 Whelens is 1-16, which won't reliably stabilize 250-grain lead-cored spitzers over 250 grains, the reason there aren't many sharp-pointed .35's over 250. The standard twist of the 9.3 or .338 will stabilize spitzers up to 300 grains.

The lightest bullet weight commonly available in 9.3 is 232 grains, which normally works fine even with cup-and-core bullets, and heavier bullets penetrate almost like "premiums." On the other hand, there are many premiums bullets under 232 grains in both .338 and .35, which kick less and shoot flatter, at least at 300-350 yards.

Most .35 Whelens and 9.3x62's will hold five rounds in a blt-action magazine, while .338's hold three.

All I know is bullets like the 225 gr Accubond and Partition work for almost anything you would want to hunt with a 35 Whelen. There are other bullets that work well of course but those 2 are hard to beat especially the Accubond.

My 35 Whelen likes 250 grain bullets better than anything. I've only taken game with the 250 Partitions so haven't got a broad cross section experience with 35 caliber bullets. Those Partitions sure hit hard and penetrate like crazy.

I've hunted a good bit with the .338 WM and killed a 68" moose, a couple of brown bears and several WT deer with mine. It's a great cartridge and has LR potential, should that be a concern. I've also used a Whelen a good bit. My rifle has taken a 44" moose, a couple of brown bears, some caribou and a passel of WT deer. At ranges under 300 yards I haven't detected any difference in their terminal performance. I carry my Whelen a good bit as it is about a pound lighter and yet is noticeably lighter in recoil than my .338 WM. I've not hunted with a 9.3x62, but I've a hunting partner that dotes on it. In my experience they are same/same in the field and comparing them in an armchair will find more differences than hunters will ever detect. If you are shooting factory ammo, I'd select the .338 WM. If you handload and want to shoot the rifle a lot, then I'd go with the Whelen. If you are a handloader and want a cartridge that's a bit different then I'd go with the 9.3x62. What I wouldn't do is expect any difference in their terminal ballistics.......

The Whelen can handle any game on the North American continent with less recoil than the others (although the extra margin would be nice for big bears). Nothing wrong with that!

I use 200 grain for deer and smaller critters but for the large ones the 250 will get the nod.

I have shot coyotes with the 180s and they poof like a jackrabbit when shot with a 22-250.

Never had a 9.3 anything, but I have a .338 and have had a .350 Rem. mag. The .338 feels like a much more potent cartridge than the .350 did to me. I always felt like the available bullets hamstring the .35's. Of course the 9.3's don't suffer from that problem.

I like the Whelen and had a custom chambered one in my earlier years that added some powder space. I guess that means it wasn't really a Whelen, but it was extremely effective with cast bullets and that was important to me because I couldn't afford many jacketed bullets and there weren't a lot of them available anyway. The Whelen was what opened my eyes early on to what could be done with plain cast bullets.

So I'm a fan. From a logical perspective, the 9.63 is a more design specific big bore, and in the field, the Whelen is not as versatile as my '06 and I don't think the Whelen really brings any more to the table than the 30-06 does when loaded with heavies...both are stand outs and excellent choices.

I think that comparison is more about the virtues of a handloaded 30-06 than any inherent deficiency in the Whelen, but if I still had one, I would go for a fully optimized 30-06 chamber, and a much faster twist barrel, not just the AI version. A rebore on a shot out 270, or '06 would be a great way to start playing with a Whelen.

I could do most things with a Whelen and it would be as effective even at longer range as any other with today's bullet choices, and a better platform for launching cast bullets.

There are a host of pistol bullets that work fine at modest velocity in the Whelen and quality hunting bullets (TTSX, TSX, A-Frame, Weldcore, Partition) in weights from 180 to 310 grains available in .358 as well. I'd be hard pressed to find a situation where the .35's are hamstrung. It's hard to discuss the "feel" of something, but I've noticed zero difference in the field between the .338 WM and the Whelen, though the Whelen is obviously much easier on the shoulder.........

I'm thinking if you can't do it with a 250gr Partition or a 225gr Barnes it likely don't need to be done.

No argument from me. I just offed another brown bear this spring using my Whelen and 250 A-Frames. Lots of other combinations in the Whelen would have worked as well, certainly the two you mentioned would've.......

Plenty of good bullets for the Whelen, besides a man don't need 100 different bullets, just one good one.

I own and shoot all three (dont ask me why, just like middle bores I guess) and they are pretty much the same within 250 yards. If you where in a place where longer shots may present themselves and are up to the longer shot, then the 338 with the higher velocities and better BC shows up. That being said the 35 Whelen normally gets the nod. Someone mentioned 225 gr TSX and at 2625 fps from my old Springfield they just plan work!

I'm kinda curious how the 35 can be hamstrung with bullets when you can choose bullets from 110 to 310 grs?

That said I'd hunt any of the three interchangeably for the same game and ranges. My choice happens to be a 350 rem mag, but I know there isn't a lick spit of difference between the lot of them in the field.

Well, one other factor I forgot include is the 9.3x62 is legal for large, dangerous game in several African countries, which isn't true of the .338 Winchester or .35 Whelen, no matter what bullet is used. The 286-grain Barnes TSX and 286 Nosler Partition will out-penetrate all but a very few .338 and .35 bullets, and there's a much larger selection of good solids in 9.3 than .338 or .35.

But that is cutting things pretty fine, since most people won't use any of the three outside North America. But I do use the 9.3x62 in preference to the .338 anymore when bullets of 250+ grains seem like a good idea, and have killed enough animals in both North America and Africa with both rounds to see a difference in performance in favor or the larger bore, especially on game weighing 400+ pounds.

But any of the three will do a fine job, the reason I own rifles chambered for all of them.

Good discussion so far and no name calling either. I agree with Steehead that you only need one good bullet and it can be a cup & core as many have alluded to.
However as Mule Deer pointed out, if Africa is in your future, than the Whelen is out if dangerous game is on the menu. But that encompasses a small subset.
I am forming the opinion that the Whelen may be a another cartridge to consider that is in the "sensible class" for those wanting to stay clear of the heavy recoiling cartridges but have plenty of downrange thump.

I should add that I don't have a complete handle on what all is available in bullet weight and design. Heck, I'm getting low on Varget and realize that is going to be a problem!

Given that as others have noted that all three are, with conventional loads, excellent and nearly indistinguishable on the larger game for which they were designed; I will note that the .35 Whelen (and my preferred .350RM) indisputably beats the others, with specialty loads, on smaller game and even for plinking. The coincidence of a shared caliber with very popular handgun and not too uncommon medium game rounds means that a great selection of bullets are available suited for multiple velocity ranges for specialty loads.

Inexpensive 158 grain plated bullets at 1500 or less with Unique make fine small game and fun rounds, that are great for introducing new or inexperienced shooters to centerfires. With the same 200 grain bullets loaded to about the same velocity the .35 Whelen will do just as well in the deer woods as the grand old .35 Remington. Cast bullets and molds aplenty are available in .35 with very few in .33 and almost none in 9.3. Indeed since Montana Bullets dropped their nice 270 grain 9.3, I know of no commercially cast bullets in 9.3mm.

bigwhoop RL15 works fine in the Whelen.

I have killed a fair bit of game with the 338-06 (elk, grizzly, nilgai and black bear), 35 Whelen (moose, elk, nilgai and black bear) and 9.3x62 (eland, kudu, gemsbuck, etc.) and have not seen one iota of difference with the critter hit properly. This with 185's, 210's and 225's in the 338-06, 225's and 250's in the Whelen and 250's (the old original X used on a 2002 African hunt) in the 9.3x62. Kind of like the 270, 280, 30-06 story it seems.

I haven't found a better powder for me in the 35 Whelen yet, at least with 225 and 250's. It's fast and always accurate. I know, it is one rifle, but quite a few others seem to get the same results. Love the stuff.

Ed,

I can see why you wouldn't see any difference between those rounds if all you've used in the 9.3x62 is the original 250 X-Bullet. I used that bullet some myself, and while it worked I didn't it to kill as quickly as lead-cored 286's in the 9.3x62, whether the Nosler Partition, Norma Oryx or Hornady Interlock. In fact several people have been so impressed with the consistently sudden results with those bullets they decided to get a 9.3x62 themselves, including my last hunting partner in Africa and a nilgai guide in Texas. There's a reason the 9.3x62 gained such a fine reputation in Africa with "conventional" 286's, and they still work great today.

I can't think of a job where I'd choose the .338 or .35 Whelen over the 9.3. The 9.3 has all of the virtues of the .338 Win Mag and none of the vices. If I were to have one rifle for Africa, it would be a 9.3.

With the 9.3x62 and the 35 Whelen, you are looking at another on of those cases where .008" is purported to make a heck of a difference but I suspect the difference would be difficult to see. Both of these cartridges have the happy capability of performing very well with conventional bullets.
The ability to use 357 pistol bullets is an important feature of the 35 and I have often loaded 158's at 1200fps in my Whelen.
If building a rifle, standard twist is meaningless since the whole idea of a custom rifle is the ability to customize specifications. My 35 Whelen is a twelve twist and my own standard twist for this chambering is a fourteen.
I am a fan of the 338 Win Mag because I think it is a great cartridge. I would build a 338 differently though to take advantage of it's long range capability. GD

Never owned a 9.3, have owned a .338 WM and a .35 Whelen. I much prefer the Whelen for the broad range of bullet choices, I more often shoot cast bullet and pistol bullet loads. 225gr. bullets work well for a whitetail load.

greydog,

In my experience the difference between the .35 Whelen and 9.3x62 doesn't really occur until bullets over 250 grains are used. Yeah, with a custom twist in a .35 Whelen you can use spitzers over 250 grains, but damn few are made, and even the heavier bullets available tend to have blunt noses so they'll stabilize in a 1-16 twist.

In contrast, the 9.3x62 was designed to shoot much heavier bullets, so there are a bunch available. And in my experience they do make a difference, especially on game larger than deer.

I can believe that. In addition, those bullets were made specifically with the 9.3x62 in mind and it is not surprising they work.
I think a nice 275 grain semi-spitzer would be great in a 35. Of course, the old 300 Hornady was also a great heavy bullet.
As has been mentioned. The beauty of these cartridges is that they work so well with conventional bullets just because the velocities are well suited to these bullets.
The load I shot in my whelen for years produced close to 2600 with 250's but I decided it was too hot so I dropped about 80 fps and feel good about it.
I have some friends and customers who are real fans of the 9.3 and it's pretty hard to argue with them. GD

Shooting pistol bullets in 9.3 bore rifles is only as difficult as locating some 9mm Makarov bullets.

Loading the Sierra or Hornady 95gr hollow points with the base forward can compensate for small dimensional variations in some funky Euro bores. An ersatz modern mini-ball that yields grouse head precision at 25 yds in my my M46 Husqvarna.

Huntington's used to offer a 200-grain cast bullet designed for the 9.3x74R, and I ordered a bunch before they were discontinued. They work pretty well in the 9.3x62 with C.E. Harris's "universal reduced rifle load" of 13.0 grains Red Dot for around 1450 fps.

Have also used the same powder in many other rifles. The only requirement is that the cartridge be of at least .300 Savage or .35 Remington capacity, and the bullet must be in the normal weight range for the cartridge. But it worked once even outside of that, with 210-grain cast .41 Magnum bullets in the .416 Remington Magnum. The bullets weren't all that hard, and bumped up enough with the fast powder to shoot into about 2" at 50 yards--at .41 Magnum velocities. I wouldn't be surprised if cast .38 Special bullets wouldn't do the same thing in the 9.3x62. Should try it sometime, because the difference in bullet/bore diameter is about the same as with the .41 and .416.

Have also been experimenting with buckshot for cheap practice/small game loads in the past year, with excellent results. Would be surprised if 0000 sized to .366" didn't work with Red Dot.

I also have a 265-grain 9.3mm mold that works very well with wheelweight metal for cheap practice loads.

Steelhead covered it perfectly.

John,

The 250 gr X worked beautifully dropping about everything right now including two kudu with one shot (oops). I recovered a few bullets and they could well be used in a Barnes ad. I just don't see how a 286 gr whatever could have performed better. My load was sailing them at 2650 fps.

I have seen the 9.3x62 with 286gr TTSX penetrate both shoulder of large cape buffalo, damage was extensive. The others would not have been legal to use.

I know you have enough good input, and have probably already made a decision, but I wanted to chime in anyway.

I like the flexibility of the 35 Whelen to shoot cheap pistol bullet loads.

And as many have said, I suspect there isn't much difference in killing power between the trio.

The only 338 I ever shot a lot was unpleasant to shoot (for me). It was a beautiful tang safety Ruger with deep blue and a beautiful dense walnut stock. I never could manage more than about 20 rounds off the bench, and then I had enough. Finally I gave up on it.

My 35 Whelens are pleasant by comparison, and my favorite is a Winchester 1895 with a crescent steel buttplate.

If I ever am lucky enough to get to Africa, I'll just buy another 375H&H. No need to plan that far ahead.

So I'd keep that Ruger of yours. It's a great choice for elk and for Alaska.

Ed,

Thanks very much for the extra info.

I had mixed results with that bullet. It would always kill stuff, but on more than one occasion they went a ways even with very well-placed shots. One was a broadside gemsbok that was staggered by the first shot, in the meat of the shoulder, but didn't fall, so I aimed for the bone of the shoulder and sent another along. Just at that instant he decided to take off, so the second bullet landed within a couple inches of the first. He went around 80 yards before running into an acacia, which finally stopped him. But then gemsbok will sometime do that.

But I also know that some batches of X-Bullets were harder than others. I seem to remember that when the TSX came out it was also redesigned slightly to open up easier.

In general I have had better luck dropping animals quickly on behind-the-shoulder shots with lead-cored bullets. When shooting for bone I haven't found much difference in performance as long as the bullet penetrated sufficiently.

Whelen,
Yes I agree with that logic at present. Further, much to my surprise, Ruger had a new tang stock available. Other than a black pad instead of red, it is a drop-in only to need a bedding job to fortify the stock.
A Ruger #1-S in 9.3x62 is enticing, but for now, the Whelen will be the workhorse.

John,

Is there anything you would take a 9.3x62 firing 286 Partitions up against where you would not use a 35 Whelen with 250 Partitions?

Not having used the 9.3 and just going by numbers, I can�t see much difference. Seems to me the difference would be much like a 280 Ackley/160 Partition vs. a 270 Win/140 Partition. Similar differences in SD, bullet weight, and bullet diameter, and both can be fired at similar speeds. Yet in the case of the 280 AI/270, I would happily carry either interchangeably for the game in which they are intended.

If a Whelen guy wanted to go heavy he could always use a 270 grain Northfork, 280 Swift, or heavy Woodleigh if his rifle would stabilize them, and be within 100 fps or so of the 9.3x62.

Bob,
Thanks for the incite. I'm angling for Varget as I an use it in my .223, .308 and 35 Whelen. Formerly I used it in the .204 and 375 H&H. One powder covering so many applications in this "era" is a distinct advantage. Hopefully I can find another 8 pounder.

Mule Der or EdM,
Do either of you know if Barnes has made their TSX style bullet more frangible due to the lower velocities it most likely will be used in?

Billy,

Aside from the legality of using a .35 Whelen on certain African animals, no, I wouldn't worry about the difference between the Whelen with a 250 and the 9.3x62 wth a 286. Though I do know the 286 will out-penetrate the .35 250 by a significant amount, partly because the 286 has the partition moved forward to retain more weight. In fact in a test in the same media the 286 Partition penetrated deeper than the 250 TSX and almost as far as the 286 TSX. The only two 286 Partitions I've recovered averaged 80% weight retention.

That doesn't mean the Whelen (or the .338 Winchester) won't do the job. I've seen both do great work, and as noted earlier still own rifles in both chamberings. But have also been impressed enough with the 9.3x62 over the past dozen years to have used it almost exclusively rather than the .338 or .35 Whelen (or even my .375 H&H) when a medium-bore seems like a good idea.

Man, all this 9.3 talk could get a guy wound up. I already have a 35 Whelen, 35 Newton and a 338 Win Mag as well. Plus, I ran across what looks like a decently sporterized M1917 this afternoon that would make a slick rebore candidate for a 9.3x62. Seems like the 1917's make some pretty cool rifles with their big bellys.

Sounds like you are all set.

I would never have thought to call Ruger in search of that stock. Good thinking!

bigwhoop,

I dunno about the construction of the 9.3 TSX's being softer, partly because there are a few 9.3x64 enthusiasts around, not to mention 9.3 wildcatters. In fact, the guy who played "Donk" in CROCODILE DUNDEE is a rifle loony and 9.3 wildcatter. Met him a few years ago at the SHOT Show in the Redding booth. Not as big as he looked on-screen, but he loves his .366's....

Should also emphasize that this all ballistic trivia, since aside from the legality of using the .338, Whelen and 9.3x62 in some African countries on dangerous game, the all work fine on the same basic array of animals.

But the Campfire is the cyberspace center of ballistic gack, as our friend Dober put it, and a major my job is dealing in rifle trivia.

In what is loosely termed "reality," the .30-06 with the right bullet will do anything the three rounds we're discussing will. But to rifle loonies that ain't any fun.

You went and spoiled all the fun!

I've owned a couple of .338 Win Mags, a couple of .35 Whelens and three .375 H&Hs. Actually, that's only two distinct rifles in .375 H&H as the last one had a 26" barrel that I had cut to 22" The other was an M70 with a 24" that weighed about 10 lbs with scope.

All of those rifles are long gone. Not due to poor performance in a ballistic sense, but I got out of them all I wanted and then some. In looking for another .35 Whelen, I came across a terrific buy on a 9.3 X 62, and had an interest to the point of researching ballistics and listening to John (MD) and Ganyana (Don Heath).

I was impressed by what they had to say and chose the 9.3 X 62 over a a M700 Rem in .338 RUM. I'd owned a .340 Wby for ten years so knew pretty well what to expect from the RUM. But in handling those two rifles side by side in the same shop, at a near identical price, I chose the T3 in 9.3.

I've not been disappointed. In fact, I'll keep this one.

John will defend it, and we have a fellow up here in the far north of Canada who has a dozen or so of 'em, and uses it on all big game in the Yukon. He killed a big griz with one a couple of years ago. He's become quite famous across the North Land and in the Northwest. And due to his promotions and adventures, the 9.3 X 62 has become quite popular across the north of Canada.

My experience in hunting with it is so-far limited to two bears. One, I finished off for a young friend and was quite impressed by the work of a 286 Hornady. The other was my own bear - a six-footer - that took a frontal chest hit from a 286 Nos. Part. that penetrated 3 feet and was found in skinning just in front of the right hip.

It's ballistic performance comes close enough to the .375 H&H, that I feel a more appropriate comparison is with the .375 than the .35 Whelen.

I've written quite a bit about it in my blogs, including the current series.

My thanks to John and Don for their enthusiastic endorsement of that famous African cartridge (yeah, I know it's German), and to Ted in the far North.

Now, I have my own reasons for endorsing it as the best of The BEST in mediums.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

Thanks for the very interesting post!

The 286 Hornady performs very well, especially in the Hornady factory loads at the now-standard industr velocity of 2360 fps. The last animal I shot with the 9.3x62 was taken with that load in April, a big cow nilgai facing me at a little over 200 yards.

Now, nilgai guides will tell you both bulls and cows are the toughest in North America. Whether that is true I don't know, only having taken 4 and seen another 4 killed. But the outfitter with me was totally astonished to see the cow hop sideways a little, then collapse about 10-12 feet from where it was hit. The bullet had entered just inside the left shoulder and exited just behind the rear of the ribcage. He told me they often see cow nilgai go as much as 400 yards after solid chest hits with good bullets from .300 magnums.

Probably would. And 000 buck, at .360", would probably work in a .357 even without sizing.

I saw in your article that you use #4 buck in a .243, but had to sort them. I guess you know Lee Precision makes a mold that casts #4 buck about a dozen at a time. Of course, if you're going to cast, you'd probably just make bullets.

I've seen this as well - but interestingly, my current whelen in M77 Hawkeye config has a 1:12 twist. Came from the factory that way. I believe Ruger made a 1:12 twist in a run of 350 Rem mags and this barrel came from one of those batches. I've been looking at the heavy Woodleighs to give them a try just to see how they shot and velocity potential. I've also contemplated having my whelen re-bored to 9.3x62 to take advantage of the twist, 286 Nosler, and legality in Africa. I have a 375 Ruger but it weighs 9 lbs, my whelen weighs right at 8 lbs with a handy 22" barrel. Plus it shoots well.

Why no love for the 9.3x64mm? Especially if it is in a custom rifle.

Is it just too close to the .375 H&H? It doesn't have the recoil reduction advantage of the 9.3x62 but could be loaded down to that level easily. With 286 grain bullets I believe it is allowed for dangerous game in most African Countries, except the ones with caliber rather than energy restrictions.

Ammo for it was on the shelves of the sporting goods stores that I checked in Windhoek and Johannesburg. It is real close to the 35 Newton that so many get horned up over. Good sized non belted case, good brass, so why so little looney attention?

It's a pity Hornady no longer makes a 275 gr .358" bullet as IMHO that would put the whelen on even grounds with the 9.3X62.

Swift does make a 280 gr A-frame which should be outstanding, but as John mentioned the 1-16 twist remington barrels will likely have issues stabalizing that bullet. Should be no problem with a 1-14 or 1-12. And if you have a 1-12 twist barrel and want to drill deep, there is always the 310 gr woodleigh.

And a friend got a swaging die to turn .366" bullets into .358" bullets, though as I recall the accuracy was so-so. My understanding is when you swage a bullet the jacket springs back and the core is slighly loose, so the proper way to do it is to swage smaller than dia and then bump the bullet up to final dia. Too much work IMHO when you have options already in production.

With regards to the "legal cartridge for Africa", what is that based on? It there just a drop-dead minimum ft/lbs number? Is it based on many years of guides and their observations? What started that in the first place? I bet Mule Deer has some incite.

I'll let you know for sure in a few weeks.

Something tells me I'll get it to shoot.

It's a fairly blunt-nosed "spitzer," designed to be short enough to work OK in 1-16 twists. However, I had the best luck getting it to shoot in my 1-12 twist .358 STA.

That's why a 223 is a FAR better deer round than a 22/250, because they generally come with a faster 1-9" twist vice the antiquated 1-14" of the 22/250.

There is not a one size fits all. Africa is a big place with many countries and provinces within countries. Each country or provincial game dept will determine ft lbs standards or lack of same. Many times it depends on what the PH will allow, he will have to clean up your mess if you screw up a shot.

Foot pounds is not on game killing authority. Would I take a big five on with a 35 Whelen?, no way!, with a 9.3x62 yes, yes! How do I know, because I have, more than once. Would a 416 be a better choice, sure, but a 9.3x 62 is not a bad choice either.

AR has a list of African country recommended minimums.

How about Bigfoot? 9.3 or 35?

Why not? I'm not thinking anything out there is going to notice .008" in bullet diameter.

Lack of experience shows. Cape Buffalo take a lot of killing. Try killing an elephant with a 35 Whelen. Bullet construction and penetration matter. Not many solids for a 35 cal being made.

How many do you need?

One.

What has been your EXPERIENCE with a 35 Whelen on elephant and Cape Buffalo?

Exactly! Thank you.

Lack of experience pretty clearly does show if you think .008" will make any difference whatsoever. And Woodleigh makes a 310 grain 35 caliber solid....

But that's not many.

Funny thing is a review on Midway for said bullet notes complete penetration on a Cape Buffalo from a 35 whelen.

Of course the Whelen ain't no 318 Westley Richards...

That's likely a review from someone that has SHOT a Cape Buffalo with one, not a guesser.

Thanks, I am looking for a 100 yd-150 yd bullet at most and if it shoots 2" at 100 that works for me. My only concern is it opens up even just a little.

I'm shooting over irons. No scope.

None, what do you have?

Then it should work fine. A-Frames tend to open up pretty easily, due to the pure lead and copper construction.

Same as you. So that proves that my opinion is good as yours concerning the effectiveness of the Whelen on said critters.

Of course a 9.3 is about the thickness of a piece of paper greater in diameter and difference in weight between common 9.3 rounds and Whelen rounds are this bullet.




I can clearly see the advantage.

Don't know 358, but don't think he ever wrote that your opinion was in error.

Really MOboy? The above appears fairly condescending to me.

John,

that is a very good news about those bullets because up to now the reports we had over here in Yukon was a little too soft.

all the best.

Phil

Phil,

I dunno how the 286 Hornady would work on heavy bone in a moose or grizzly, but it works pretty well on somewhat smaller game!

Hornady also apparently makes a monolithic 250 load for the 9.3x62, but only sells it in Europe. One of the guys on the same hunt used it on a big bull and a pig, and it worked fine.

Here is the current known min's:

Benin
� There is no minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Benin.
� Benin does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Botswana
� The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Botswana is .222 caliber for any game other than dangerous game.
� The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Botswana is .375 caliber for dangerous game or big game hunting.
� The maximum equipment allowed for rifle hunting in Botswana is .577 Nitro Express caliber.
� Botswana does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Burkina Faso
� There is no minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Burkina Faso.
� Burkina Faso does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Cameroon
� For Group 1 - Small Game, the equipment requirement for hunting is .240 caliber or less, shotgun may be used as well.
� For Group 2 - Medium Game, the equipment requirement for hunting is .240 to .354 caliber.
� For Group 3 - Big Game, the equipment requirement for hunting is .354 caliber or larger.
� Cameroon does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Central African Republic
� The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Central African Republic is .375 caliber for dangerous game or big game hunting.
� Central African Republic does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Ethiopia
� There is no minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Ethiopia.
� Ethiopia does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Mozambique
� There is no minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Mozambique.
� Mozambique does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Namibia
� Smallest caliber allowed 7 mm (.284).
� Minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity)
� Big Game
5400 Joule
(Elephant, Cape Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, etc.)
� Large Game
2700 Joule
(Greater Kudu, Cape Eland, Oryx / Gemsbok, Red Hartebeest, Blue Wildebeest, Black Wildebeest, Hartmann's Zebra, Burchell's Zebra, Giraffe, Sable Antelope, Roan Antelope, Waterbuck, Tsessebe, Leopard, etc.)
� Medium to Small Game
1350 Joule
(Springbok, Impala, Blesbok, Gray Duiker, Steenbok, Ostrich, Caracal, Black-Faced Impala, Red Lechwe, Damara Dik-Dik, Klipspringer, Black-Backed Jackal, Warthog, Cheetah, Nyala, Chacma Baboon, Game Birds, etc.)

South Africa
� Most provinces do not have a minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting and rely on common sense.
� Some provinces require a minimum of .375 caliber for dangerous or big game hunting.
� No provinces require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Tanzania
� The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Tanzania is .240 caliber for any game other than dangerous game.
� The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Tanzania is .375 caliber for dangerous game or big game hunting.
� Tanzania does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Zambia
� Zambia does not have a minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting plains game and rely on common sense. Caliber in the .270 range will be well suited for some of the smaller plains game in Zambia.
� The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Zambia is .300 caliber for dangerous game such as Leopard and Lion.
� The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Zambia is .375 caliber for dangerous game or big game hunting such as Elephant, Buffalo and Hippo.
� Zambia does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Zimbabwe
� Class A Game
5300 Joule
Minimum caliber 9.2mm in diameter
(Elephant, Hippo, Buffalo)
� Class B Game
4300 Joule
Minimum caliber 7.0mm in diameter
(Lion, Giraffe, Eland)
� Class C Game
3000 Joule
Minimum caliber 7.0mm in diameter
(Leopard, Crocodile, Kudu, Oryx / Gemsbok, Hartebeest, Wildebeest, Zebra, Nyala, Sable Antelope, Waterbuck, Tsessebe, etc.)
� Class D Game
850 Joule
Minimum caliber 5.56mm in diameter
(Warthog, Impala, Reedbuck, Sitatunga, Duiker, Steenbok, Jackal, Game Birds, etc.)
� Black Powder Rifles
Minimum caliber .40

Of course a .35 Whelen will kill buffalo.

Every dangerous-game PH I�ve hunted outside of South Africa with has killed a number of buffalo with cartridges like the 7mm Remington Magnum, .30-06 and .300 Winchester Magnum. This is because most PH�s have done plenty of control shooting (culling) at one time or another.

The most experienced PH I�ve hunted with got a job with the then-Rhodesian game department when he got of high school at 17. He killed several hundred buffalo with the .30-06, either on game-department or private-land csull, most with the 180-grain Nosler Partition. I found this out when we were BS�ing about rifles and cartridges one day, and I asked what was the largest African animal he�d feel comfortable hunting with the .30-06. He immediately said, �Buffalo.� He even used the 180 Partition on frontral shots on mature bulls, supposedly a very testing shot, according to some other PH�s.

On my last buffalo hunt one of the PH�s had used the 7mm Remington Magnum to do the same thing, and the son of the other PH had killed his first trophy bull at 15 with a .300 Winchester and one 180-grain Barnes TSX. The bull went about 75 yards and keeled over, from a behind-the-shoulder shot, which seems to be about average for buffalo no matter what the cartridge and bullet.

So yeah, a .35 Whelen will work fine, and there is no magic line between what will kill a Cape buffalo and what won�t. But what locals can legally use and visiting safari hunters can legally use are different, and I generally don�t consciously break laws when visiting foreign countries.

Of course anything will kill anything including rocks. I've seen DG killed with 30:06 with one shot. I've also seen DG shot five times with 458. But then again what do I know?

Great info Mule deer, thank you. I have owned two .35 Whelen's and enjoyed shooting them. I might have to give the 9.3X62 a go.

Ed,

The most bullets I�ve seen put into one buffalo was 11. The first was a very highly regarded 300-grain bullet from a .375 H&H factory load that my partner placed perfectly on the shoulder of a broadside bull. The bull took off into the brush, along with the rest of the herd, and we gave him an hour, then followed. After 150 yards he jumped, going away and very lively. At that point the brush got even thicker and the two PH�s asked us to stay behind. Over the next hour they put 10 solids in him, from a .416 Rigby and a .458 Express (a stretched version of the .458 Lott) before the bull gave up. Turned out the .375 had broken the shoulder and expanded perfectly, but for some reason had spun inside and ended up at the rear of the ribs on the same side, only penetrating one lung.

But that�s beside my original point. My point is that when hunting in a foreign country (especially a Third World country, whether in Africa or even Mexico) I try to abide by the local laws. They can be arbitrary and enforcement can be capricious, so why ask for trouble by bringing a rifle that doesn�t meet the regulations, even if it will do the job?

Ed,

Just realized you thought my post on the .35 Whelen was ONLY a reply to you. Instead it was meant as a general comment on the .35 Whelen/9.3x62 argument.

Wow! I gotta slow them Hornadies down a wee bit!

Actually, when I started handloading for mine, I was pushing the 286 Hornady over 58 grains of RL-15 at a tad over 2400 fps. That's what I used on the wounded bruin at about 10 feet. it entered behind the right ribs and made exit at the base of the skull after taking out 3 inches of vertebrae. That stopped the bruin in three feet of tall grass.

But the interesting thing, as far as bullet performance was concerned, was that none of that was noted before pulling off the hide. The exit hole in the thick folds of fur and hide at the back of the head was only little more than bullet-size but the massive wound under the hide surprised me... nothing exterior that would have suggested that. There were no bullet fragments so I expect the Hornady made its exit mostly in one piece. With an impact velocity of close to 2400 fps, penetration of over two feet, taking our 3-inches of vertebrae - not too bad in my judgement.

And the fact that at an MV of 2360 it performed flawlessly on a cow nilgai at 200 yards where velocity had dropped to around 2000 fps speaks volumns as well. Thanks John.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

That's a very interesting report, and more evidence of why the 9.3x62 gained a lot of respect a century ago in Africa, long before "premium" bullets existed. While not exactly a long-range load, the old 286 does penetrate well.

Have also found a premium 250 spitzer at 2650 or so (when loaded to .30-06 pressures) duplicates the trajectory of the 180-grain .30-06 factory load, making 400-yard shots easy.

Interesting answer from Sports Afield/Kevin Robertson.

"
The .35 Whelen in Africa
Question:

What are the suitable applications for the .35 Whelen in Africa? Especially with 275-and 310-grain Woodleighs?

Answer:

Your question is well timed because I am currently with Monty Kalogeras at his Safari Shooting School in Mason County, Texas. There is a very nice .35 Whelen here I have just shot. It is Monty's elk rifle of choice, with 250-grainers. This is fortunate because this is not a popular cartridge in Africa and I like to have personally shot all the cartridges I'm asked to write about.

I have long been a fan of the 9.3 x 62mm, which is very close to the .35 Whelen. My Nine Three, as we call it, now has in excess of 650 buffalo to its credit. This is because this caliber (.366) is the legal minimum for the thick-skinned heavyweights in Zimbabwe --the country where I hunted professionally for two decades. I liked 300-grainers for buffalo, and with 286-grainers this rifle was also my favorite Zambezi Valley antelope rifle.

Unfortunately .358 (the .35 Whelen) is not a legal thick-skinned dangerous-game caliber in Africa, and this limits its application out there. But having said that, the .35 Whelen would be a fine choice for all the antelope species all the way up to eland up to about 200 paces. Almost 90 percent of all shots at antelope in Africa are within this distance so you would be well covered with this cartridge. In fact, I think it is a good choice and I have already said so a number of times in my book, The Perfect Shot.

With this in mind, good 250-grainers at about 2,500 fps would be my bullet weight of choice (instead of 275s or 310s) for all the antelope species, and good enough for shots out to that distance, maybe even a bit more if need be.

When sighted in dead-on at 200 with 250-grainers at 2,500 fps, Monty's .35 Whelen is 3 inches high at 100, 6 low at 250, 12 low at 300, 18 low at 350, and 34 low at 400. This is his elk sight setting and it would also work a treat for African areas where the shots are longer.

This cartridge would also work well for the cats, especially leopard and even lion over a bait with the right type of bullets. While I have no doubt that with good 310-grainers it would also work OK on buffalo, I cannot recommend this due to the legality factor.

SU35,
Thanks for the link to the article. Never read anything from Mr. Robertson. How old is that article?

Very interesting read since I'm a new owner of a 35 Whelen and am looking forward to hunting North America with it. I don't have plans to ever go to the Dark Continent so the 9.3 doesn't interest me.

I agree as well, if I ever get the chance to hunt for Cape buffalo which is extremely unlikely I'll spring for a new gun. The 35 Whelen does everything I need to do around here.

Yep, if you don't plan to hunt Africa the .35 Whelen is plenty--and the .338 Winchester more practical than the 9.3x62.

Yep, they are all good in their own way.

I am very hesitant to post this but will. Please don't derogate me, I am just passing along information I got from many very experienced African professionals. I have had the good fortune to make 19 trips, so have visited with many great professionals.
This business of legal cartridges: to the man, I have never had one of these experienced professionals make much of a fuss about the cartridge. Rather, they had two primary questions. First, can the guy shoot it well and two is he using really good bullets.
One of these guys had been named the SCI professional hunter of the year. He worked in Zimbabwe and Tanzania. I mention him because he had lots of numbers of hunters on long and expensive trips under his belt. His first choice for visiting hunter to use on Buffalo was a 338 Winchester with 250 grain Nosler partitions. He was very explicit about this combination. He said he had less problems with that combination than with those who used a 375. He thought it was easier to get in a good first hit than the 375, not that there was any magic in the 338. I doubt that he would write this for publication but he was quite willing to tell me that over drinks. He said that when hunters used anything bigger than a 375, that the number of situations that he had to "sort out" only increased. Every single pro I have met is most concerned about anybody who brings something bigger than a 375 for buffalo.
Several years ago I was asked if I would shoot a problem elephant in Zimbabwe. The only rifle I brought was my 270. Of course, this situation involved a lot of game rangers because the elephant in question had been raiding citrus orchards owned by a government official. The shooting was at night. Their camp rifle was a 338. I asked them if it was enough and they looked at me like I was from another planet. The universal response was, "yes it will be fine if you shoot well". The back up guns were full auto 308's.
The game scouts keep track of the number of animals shot. They keep to themselves. Never had one show the slightest interest in the cartridge I was using. Again, they were interested in the hunters ability to keep up and then to shoot well. It worked wonders if they were thanked and shown some respect.
The other thing that gained a lot of points was basic gun handling safety.
I think the visiting hunters most likely to get in trouble are the jackass type who are rude, disrespectful, and impatient. Then get ready for anything.

Nice post. Did the elephant get a taste of the full auto lifestyle or not?

Do any manufactures currently chamber this cartridge?

So....How did that 338 do on the Elephant?

Rick,

Good post--and it reflects the conversations with PH's I've had over there as well.

In fact the most experienced PH I've hunted with often found himself outgunned by his clients when after buffalo, because by preference he used his .375 H&H, a very nice Mauser that had been one of Ben Musgrave's personal rifles. He couldn't recall how many buffalo he'd had to "sort out" with his .375 that his clients had wounded with rifles chambered for larger cartridges. (He also shrugged when asked what bullets he prefers in the .375 for buffalo, because he mostly uses whatever ammo his clients leave behind in camp, and "these days the bullets are all good." Since he guides buffalo hunters in the thick stuff in Zim, any tiny differences in point of impact don't matter.)

On the other hand, the question of what's permissible isn't always the PH's to decide. In some countries a government game scout goes along to oversee everything. But the scout can also say OK to a smaller-than-legal round, and often does when a little extra money crosses his palm.

The people I've encountered who are REALLY adamant about larger cartridges in Africa, whether for plains or dangerous game, are usually American safari hunters, who firmly believe a .30-06 is "marginal" on animals like gemsbok, wildebeest and zebra, and a .375 H&H is a popgun on large, dangerous game.

John,
Nobody talks safari cartridges like US hunters. They talk about it non-stop while hunting and at the campfire and during meals and while I am trying to appreciate the entire experience. Goodness.

The professional I have hunted with the most thinks a 30/06 is just fine for pretty much everything if the hunter can shoot. Bad shot...get ready for a rodeo. The exception is hunting elephants in very thick cover. Then he likes a heavy double. He uses a 375 for backup on buffalo and cats.

The game scouts really appreciate a stipend! Really!
Rick

John,
One last comment. Most PH's are more fearful of being shot by their client than they are fearful of the critters.

I don't think that fear is unique to African PH's. I've know 'hunters' I'd never go hunting with because of their carelessness. For Guides everywhere it's a risk.

I took a friend groundhog hunting and let him borrow my 30-06 loaded with 125gr SP. Him,another friend and myself were walking down a fence row when we unexpectedly jumped a groundhog we didn't see munching on some thick clover. The friend I had lent my 30-06 to had the rifle go off before he got it to his shoulder and I could here the bullet wiz by my head. I went over and emptied the rifle and told him he could carry it that way till he learned to keep his finger off the trigger and not to take it off safe till he was ready to shoot. Needles to say he never went hunting with me after that.