Having used a pretty big spectrum of hunting bullets on game and reading the notes of their performance in my reloading manuals. It appears that fast expansion and even a bit of shrapnel Kills a bit to a lot quicker than the bullets that retain a lot of their weight. And even more horrifying it appears that certain brands of cup and core bullets are very fast killers of game if placed in the ribs. Ballistic Tips, Gamekings, Interloks and Hotcors in the midweights really seem to put game on the ground fast.

I don't disagree with your statement, however, this forum is "ask the gun writers".

Do you have a question ?

Believe the man is just starting up a friendly conversation grumpy pants.

I've noticed similar results specific to deer but id not want to use such bullets exclusively due to the possibility of odd angles requiring more penetration, to say nothing of torn up meat.

I like soft bullets for soft game.

There is no doubt that softer (even explosively soft) bullets will "kill" much faster than more controlled expansion bullets.......as long as they penetrate enough to reach the vitals. That isn't much penetration on a broadside rib shot, particularly on deer size game.

The "problem" comes when the game gets bigger or the angle of the shot isn't perfectly broadside. Even on a "perfect" broadside shot, a really soft bullet can fail if the shot isn't precisely placed. Hit a shoulder bone and that minimal penetration may not be enough. A severely angled shot where the vitals are 12-24" away from the point of bullet strike and penetration will likely be insufficient with a softer, fast expanding bullet. Hit a hip bone and you will almost be guaranteed to not reach the vitals.

The second "problem" with soft, explosive bullets is the fact that they are much less likely to fully penetrate the animal and give an exit wound. This severely reduces the blood trail if the animal runs after the shot (I should say "when"...as they will all run some of the time). This can be a real problem if the area is thick rather than more open making recovery difficult.

Controlled expansion bullets give much more room for error on less than perfect broadside shots....even if they don't give "lightning bolt" kills as often. That's one of the reasons the Nosler Partition is so popular. The front half of the Nosler expands quickly giving quicker kills while the rear portion gives penetration.

Cup and core bullets will kill any whitetail in the woods and usually quicker than Premium Bullets. I very seldom use anything but Standard Cup and Core for my hunting of most Big Game Animals .

I've used monolithic bullets for much of the past few years to include two trips to RSA and total over 50 game animals from small deer, Impala to kudu, zebra and wildebeest. Seems to me that the internal damage from Monolithic is long and narrow with awhile before a blood trail begins. Cup and core bullets seem to have a much wider wound channel and a much quicker (Sooner)blood trail.

Anybody compared an Accubond to a cup and core? From what I've heard, the front of the AB is pretty soft and would offer similar performance. I actually like the idea of a 'softer' bullet for deer.

My experience with ABs in several calibers/applications has been very partition like. Sounds like you want a ballistic tip.

I think these sort of bullets are a perfect match for my 300 Savage and 35 Whelen for most big game. Prefer something a bit stouter, like Partitions or ETips, for my 270 and 300 Win Mag.

Bingo.

Wow I thought this was all figured out by the sixties. The mono metal and other big dollar bullets have their place, but in real big game calibers, the normal bullets work great on deer. Partitions, as good as they are, seem to not kill deer as fast as cup and core, at least in .284 and 30. YMMV

Soft is the wrong word. Frangible is more accurate.

Soft is something like pure lead or lead with a dash of tin. This is soft...



So's this...



Fella drives a C&C bullet fast enough and it turns into a grenade, or so I've noticed.

Not much difference in results from hitting steel at a mile or meat at 70 yards, hey?

Vernacular Nazi

One problem with this discussion is that today there's an entire spectrum of bullets performance from extremely fragmenting varmint bullets to monolithics that don't lose any weight. There are also monolithics designed to lose their petals, and bullets right in the middle of the spectrum that lose about half their weight.

In my experience both Hornady Interlock Spire Points and most Ballistic Tips retain about half their weight, on average, but to confuse the issue there are also Ballistic Tips designed to retain at least 60% of their weight, which borders on AccuBond and Partition performance--except some Partitions are designed to retain at least 75-80% of their weight.

And then there's the way the performance of "soft" bullets changes with the cartridge's velocity. So if we're going to talk in generalities like "fragmenting bullets" and "controlled-expansion" bullets then it's going to be very difficult to pin anything down.

I think a lot of shooters are using bullets that are tougher than they need to be these days.

I thought hunting bullets were for hunting? Therefore, is it not axiomatic that if it is stuck in the wrong place to the point of being inadequate, then more is being asked of it?

With a hunt costing money, I err on the Hagel Principle of planning for the worst shot imaginable. For local easier access deer hunting, more frangible bullets and chosen shots will work fine. Thus is why a local elk hunter is happy with a .270 and 130 grainer whereby an out of state hunter is more likely to pass over this combo and prefer something heavier.

Familiarity with game and terrain tends to influence the perception of adequacy in bullet performance.

An Accubond is a cup and core bullet.

If I had to choose only one cartridge/bullet combo for deer it would a 270 and a 140 AccuBond.


Of course lots of other bullets work great as well.

I really think it boils down to most NA game is not that hard of an animal especially deer. In all honesty they are pretty soft skinned and since we tend to use rifles of fairly significant power and capable of throwing sizable bullets then all of the current crop of bullet alloys do a pretty good job, This evidently was not so prior to say 1940 . One only has to read some of JOC's early works and he frequently is commenting on bullet quality or lack of. but most bullets were then just gilding metal with a soft lead core. When you get to either extremes very light bullets with frangible bullets say a 223 or 243 with a varmint bullet or a larger round with very tuff bullets then you may see some problems but use a good sized bullet at decent velocity and you are good to go. We live in some very good times bullet wise.

Ok, a bonded vs. non-bonded....

To your real point, I have not tried an Accubond in my 308 deer loads. The regular Ballistic Tips are working too well. In fact, I dropped from the 165 to the 150 since they stiffened them up.

For a good while my main deer hunting buddy was using 308 cartridges I assembled with softer 165's from the old 100 count boxes. They were great in that application. When they dried up he went to 168 grain Bergers.

Like Mule Deer says, there's too many bullet styles to paint with a broad brush. What's "soft" at high velocity may not be where velocity has fallen off.

What I don't want in a hunting bullet is what the SST did to that antelope posted by JGRaider on the SST thread;I can do without the mutilation... I'll take what the Partition did in the photo below.

Last couple of bucks shot with Partitions were instantly dead. Who says they don't kill fast?

Anytime you drive a bullet into bone at extremely high speed, you can get the kind of destruction shown in the photo of the antelope which is caused by the bone fragments creating secondary projectiles. The bullet is not capable of creating this kind of destruction on its own.

I saw a 75 lb whitetail doe about 15 years ago that a guy brought in to a processor with the whole front blown up.....looked much like the antelope. I asked what the hell he shot it with and the answer was a 300 Winchester magnum with a 165 grain partition......at a distance of 40 yards. Same shot placement, similar cartridge, similar impact velocity, not so similar bullet construction. Hmmmmm?

SST's are still getting bad press here on the Fire but as I've posted several times before I emailed Hornady last year the response was in fact the bullet has undergone a total redesign with a much heavier jacket.

I load the new SST's for two of my hunting pards both Mules they killed last year were DRT with no massive wound channels. I've shot Partitions for over 35 yrs and couldn't see any difference in the new SST performance.

A 165 Partition from a 300 Win Mag is a destructive force....I have used them on deer and elk and seen them used on other animals shot by friends,started at over 3200 fps..yes started at 3200 fps they can make a mess at close range, but I have not seen anything quite that bad....partition or not.Besides the fact that a 300 magnum more resembles a 338 caliber than it does a 7mm in terms of inflicting trauma.

Would beg to differ,however, that a 7mm or 270 Partition which land on shoulders always do the kind of damage illustrated there...since i've also shot a great many deer/antelope/black bear sized game with them from the 7 Rem Mag(3200fps+),the 270 and 280(3050-3100fps) and the 7/08 and 7x57.(2800 fps +-)....and at all kinds of distance from off muzzle to 500 yards or so.Never seen them behave like that.



In each case the wound channels/exits more resembled what we see from the 150 Partition in the picture below that....it's far more typical Partition behavior even from magnum chamberings. Even when placed through shoulders.So I would say "no" Partitions don't generally do that to deer sized game.

What you have with that antelope is excessive velocity and rotational forces from a 7 mag,high velocity and explosive disintegration from a thin jacketed bullet of "light" or "soft" construction,with massive trauma. Not my cup of tea and not what I'd call "good".

That bullet may do just fine from a cartridge giving less velocity and rotation,but isn't built for stout and is a poor match to a high velocity 7mm unless distances are longish.

I have a box of those on the bench.....might stick them in a 7/08 but would not bother with them in a 7 RM.In fact,I'd be more likely to just ignore them altogether and shoot them at paper or varmints.

I had not heard about a redesign. I may have to email them and see if that applies to the 200gn .338 SST. They shoot great, but when I tested them they basically turned to dust when they hit anything. I cut one open and it had a very thin jacket and the "Interlock ring" they refer to was barely visible. Having said that, I did see two 180gn from a 30-06 that performed well on a nice bull elk.

Here ya go...

Thanks

The reply was May 2014?

10-4

I don't think you can use the word "always" ever when it comes to gun shot wounds...they are all different. I don't think any of the hunting bullets will always create the kind of damage we are talking about, otherwise very few if any people would ever buy or use them more than once.....and as far as I know, Hornady sells a lot of SSTs and Nosler sells a lot of Partitions. I know that bone fragments that become secondary projectiles can create massive destruction......they don't always do it and I don't really understand why....likely more than one set of factors have to line up to make it happen.

There are always atypical results and the internet being what at it is, they get presented as the norm. My reaction to seeing the deer get blown up was not that Partitions suck and I would never use them....more like I will never hunt deer in a thicket that I can't see for 50 yards with a 300 magnum.

Best expansion I ever saw was a goat I literally cut in half with a bucket of refuse scattered around the trees behind the kill.

I was testing the then new, 340gn Spire Point Woodleigh Weldcores loaded to 2950fps in one of my .416 Weatherby's.

When I reported it to Geoff McDonald, he told me it was designed for about 2500fps.

Maybe an "oops" moment but it killed the goat.

ANY bullet can sometimes chew up a bunch of meat (and other tissue) at relatively close range when started fast. My wife shot a medium-sized mule deer buck last fall (he would have had about a 24" spread if the right antler hadn't been an 8" stub) with her .257 Roberts at a little less than 100 yards. The bullet was a 100-grain Tipped TSX at about 3150 fps, and Eileen made a perfect just-behind-the-shoulders meat shot. Or so she thought. When we butchered the buck the meat destruction was massive; we've never seen anything like it before with ANY 100-grain bullet from a .257, and in particular from a 100-grain TSX, which we've both used considerably in various .25-caliber cartridges, including the .25-06 and .257 Weatherby.

Which also illustrates that an example of one doesn't prove much, though people always use them on threads like this.

I have only used soft core (cup and core) on deer with excellent results. I reload for 5 different calibers and have not seen any evidence that would change me away from good old standard bullets.

It's all academic if you hunt in California, likely will be the same for some Yankee states soon too.

Most welcome...The new bullet kills were via the .284 154gr SST out of a Ruger 7x57 and Savage 7RM. The results IMO tend to substantiate Hornady's RE with the velocity variations of the two cartridges.. I worked up both loads, the redesign seemed to have no affect on accuracy and may start loading these in my 280 again as the old SST was one of the most accurate bullets I tested.

Years ago I took a statistics class and we were told that to provide a valid sample requires 100.
If that is impossible then 40 at minimum.
So when we say a certain thing happened
with a certain bullet.
We really need 99 more examples before it is statistically valid.

And you'd have to keep all other conditions equal. Same weight of animal, same presentation, same condition of lungs - breathing in or out, same state - relaxed or alarmed, same range, same velocity, same twist.


My sig line pretty well represents my take on the matter. People somehow manage to kill game every year with all kinds of bullets. The commonality I can see is that if the bullet hits the right place, it works. if it doesn't, it doesn't work. Within reason, obviously. Don't go shooting an elk in the scapula with a 40 gr. V-Max. But slip it between the ribs and it might work.

I've wounded a 125 pound impala with a .375 H&H Magnum shooting a 270 gr. Swift A-Frame. I have failed to kill a ground squirrel at a measured 100 yards with a 225 grain Hornady Interlock from a .338 Win. Mag. - it tore away half his lower abdomen but did not damage the lungs or heart. I've killed two ground squirrels with a .375 H&H and 270 gr. Hornady Interlocks at 200 yards - both hit the little critter where he or she lived. I've seen a 180 gr. Nosler Partition from a .30-06 zip through a blesbok with such little reaction that three professional hunters told me I missed, only to find the dead animal 5 minutes later. The next 180 gr. Partition in the lower neck dropped the next blesbok in its tracks - instant DRT. I've seen a 180 gr. Hornady Interlock from a .30-06 drop a 700 pound elk in its tracks with a chest hit, no bone or CNS hit, another instant DRT. I saw a kid shoot a deer with a FMJ bullet from an old Springfield '03 and kill the deer. The thing I take away from all this is the same as the title of an old JOC article in a Gun Digest - "where you hit'em is more important that what you hit'em with."

Hit the target, just hit the target. After that you can discuss the minutiae.

I generally agree, IF the point is to prove something. I guess I just view the comments on the web as merely observations and data points (seldom directly comparable to other data points). In the end if the preponderance of observations point in a direction I feel somewhat more inclined to lean in that direction.

Which is why we wade through all this.
We won't live long enough to shoot 100 moose for example or 100 bears.
I have a pretty good idea that a 250 gr bullet properly steered into the vitals from my 35 Whelen has a good chance of being effective.
whelennut

I'll leave the building of a data base for each bullet to the gun writers. I'll go with a Nosler Partition or Hornady interlock, in a caliber that's a little bigger than necessary, with a hand load that's a little below max and call it good. A 270 on deer, a 30/06 on elk leaves a little margin for error without kicking snot out of both ears every time I pull the trigger.

It's a trust factor with me, and fortunately I have to please myself only. That's why anymore, I'm seldom without an accubond or partition. I see them as the best of both worlds.....soft/hard in the same package.

Bought my first deer rifle in 1972 with calf money, a Remington 700 ADL .270. The first ammo I tried was Remington Core Lokt 130 grains and it was very accurate so I never tried anything else. They worked great for 38 years on deer and hogs, no matter the shot angle. Sometimes there was fragmentation sometimes not. Sometimes the shot was through and through and sometimes not. Sometimes there was a lot of meat damage and sometimes very little. If my shot was well placed I had a dead deer that if it ran didn't go that far. Shot a few deer too high or too far back and never recovered them. Five years ago I switched to a 6.5x55 in a modern commercial mauser action and took up reloading because US ammo was anemic and European ammo too expensive. Used 140 grain Core Lokts. Same results as the .270. Bought some 130 Grain Berger Hunting VLD's over the summer and finally got a good load developed for them a couple of months ago. Will be trying them on deer this fall. If I ever go after elk I might try a premium bullet but I might also stay with Core Lokts in my 30-06.

I also don't believe in ceasing to use a particular bullet because of one failure. I use 65 grain GameKings on coyotes out of my AR and had a splash on a coyote last winter. The GK's worked for three years and haven't had an issue since. Could it be possible that occasionally you just get a defective bullet? I think so.

I don't think anyone is suggesting making judgements on a single bullet performance but a thread like this can produce a compilation of single issues to the point if 10 or 20 guys get on here and state the same thing from the same product, maybe there is something to it even if it is a uniform perception.

That is why when you add the love for Partitions and Hornady bullets, you can't help get a sense they are a good product.

I often quote single issues like the aforementioned .416 Weatherby and 340gn Woodleigh experience, but I shot several boxes at game in a land that has no hunting seasons and no DOW and the only limits are what the property owners says his wife likes to keep around.

Hundreds of kills a year are common which is cumulative experience by any definition, so single examples are simply the equivalent of a yawn in life of breathes.

I like to read each persons experience as it is both interesting in their perception, descriptions of the event and again, that cumulative commentary which is painting a clearer picture for everyone.

The best example on this site is probably the original testimony on the Nosler Ballistic Tips that replaced the Solid Base series of bullets. They were too soft and I know from personal experience using them in a number of rifles and chamberings.

The follow up commentary on more recent users is cumulative experience that these bullets are now elevated to a trustworthy and reliable status for both game and accuracy. It's all good.

I believe your point about statistics. However when I had problems with the first three deer I shot with a new to me rifle cartridge, I tried a new bullet. I am too impatient to give the thing 37 more tries.

All I use are cast bullets or cup and core. Because I do not hunt anything that has to penetrate at all costs, or use magnums, any of the aforementioned work just great.

Mooses, bears, deer and big bears have all fallen to my Ruger in 45-70. There were no arguments. None of the animals was insulted with Lyman No 2 or cuppy-core type bullets chasing them. They simply fell over.

I guess it has to be repeated from time to time, but the cartridge used, game pursued, and distance you expect to encounter it have to be considered when selecting a bullet. I do not know that any bullet does it all, shot from any distance, against all animals.

Cuppy-cores and lead work a treat on virtually every critter on the planet.
---

Based on a small sampling of four deer taken with NPs in four dfferent calibers, it seems that they kill just as fast as ordinary c&c bullets, but always exit and seem to cause less bloodshot meat in the offside shoulder. All four were broadside shots aimed at the heart, although the heart wasn't always hit directly.

To be fair, most c&c bullets worked just fine and also generally exited as well, even "old" BTs, but one that didn't exit gave me a bad time for a bit due to the lack of a blood trail.

Given a choice and assuming the NPs shoot okay in a particular rifle, they are my first choice.

I'm almost on the same page as you in a sense.

The dabgum 150 Core-Locts from WM shoot and work so well for on deer that I stopped loading for my gun.

I don't.

I like bullets just soft enough but not to hard like my pillow. If I want more penetration I will shoot a heavy for cal. bullet or if I want more dramatic effect rn or fn bullets hit game hard.I feel premium bullets are A waste on thin skin game on 270 on up cals. at reasonable speeds.

You and I seem to be in the minority these daze. When I go hunting for moose with my 308 or 30-06, I use 200 grain bullets. Standard cup and core. Nothing special. They go in. Expand. most exit.

When I started making my own, I shot 200 grain bullets from a 303 British at 2300 fps. Wonderful deer medicine. The same bullet works on black bear and meeses.

Yes, but they have a bonded core which makes them much tougher than, say a regular Ballistic Tip. From what I've read from Mule Deer, they behave much more like a Partition than a standard cup/core. I'm eager to try my new 150 grn Accubond LR I just got in my 280 Ackley which has a BC of 611.

A waste of what?

What's "thin skinned game"? Is it a waste of something for a 270 user to use a 130 TTSX on an Alaskan Yukon moose? What if he has moose and Dall sheep on the same hunt?

Did he waste anything using the TTSX on both animals, which are both considered as "thin skinned game"?

Just trying to follow the logic here.,as I get perplexed when people complain about reliable bullet expansion and penetration on a wide variety of game animals,as if they are both something to be avoided

I agree. I'm also one that chooses to use heavy for caliber bullets when going that route. Sometimes it looks like this:

1. 225gr. Hornady interlock for 338 when elk hunting
2. 200 gr. pills for 300 magnums.
3. 180gr. Winchester powerpoints for deer and elk in ol 06.
4. 150gr. pills in 270 win for elk..
5. 250gr. sierra GK for elk in 338 win mag..

I've also had some premiums act like solids and go clean thru the vitals and keep on going and animal acts like it wasn't even hit. You know they are dead on their feet, but they don't respond that way. When elk hunting, I've seen quicker kills with the big heavy GK (250gr. in the 338 win mag) than any other pill around... Don't worry, I've got my nomex on..

BobinNH...WOW take A breath man I said that's how I feel about using premium bullets. C&C bullets do give reliable expansion and penetration using a heavy enough bullet at reasonable speeds.They have work for a lot of years and I do not feel a need to waste money on something that works.Thin skinned game since you mention moose and sheep I think you know what I mean.For your moose and sheep friend I would say use A cal that starts with a three.Peace...

Driftless: No I really did not know what you meant...but I get it now. I guess we define "thin skinned game" in different ways

Point being that not everyone wants a 30-something and bigger for a range of game animals, and stouter construction helps on bigger animals while hurting nothing in the slightest on smaller stuff.

I guess I would worry a bit about cost of bullets if I were culling does, but not in the least for even 8-10 animals here or elsewhere in a hunting season.

Wish I could say I agree....but I don't.

Not completely anyway.

I've only ever hunted with cup and cores. I never had a problem yet. I do match my bullet weights to the animals hunted.

I killed my last Moose with a 220 Core Lokt out of my .30-06. I couldn't have gotten a much better result. The Moose before that one fell to my .450M with a 350 Interlock and that was uneventful. I just don't believe premium bullets are necessary on such animals. My first Moose gave me some trouble but that was due to my .30-30 and 170 Silvertips and even that ended quickly although I was about to be charged.

I started this thread just before I left for a mandatory turkey, feral hog and poker game at my deer lease which is 40 miles south of Childress, Texas. I broke even on the poker game, saw several turkeys but didn't get a shot and I shot a big feral hog. I had not seen much sign but had gotten up two nights in a row to sneak up on bait piles. I carried my 35 Whelen and saw no hog and very little sign of them those two nights. Sunday morning I didn't get up at dawn but drank coffee and relaxed instead of walkng three miles. Got in my truck with the idea of just looking to see if any of my bait had been hit and drove up to my first hog toy. It is on the far side berm of an old pump location evaporation pond and I saw this big brown feral hog pushing my hog toy around the tee post it is tethered to. I am behind the berm on my side of the dry evap pond, stop the truck, turn it off, open the door, get out and rest my rifle over the hood. The shot is perfect, said hog is angling to my right with room to angle my bullet thru the paunch and the center of his chest. I shoot and he freezes for a second then runs up the berm and out of sight. No blood and no hog. I search for sign by making big circles after I lose his tracks in the brush and pick up a blood trail with corn it it. The blood trail leads me to the fence line more than a mile away. Goodby hog. He ran most of the way and left enough blood to be easily followed but not a lot of blood. The bullet I used was one I shoot to check zero and practice, the 220 gr. Speer Hotcor going 2600 fps or close to it. Range was 80 yards. I believe the bullet never made it past the diaphram. I have been using the 225 gr. Woodleigh RN but the rifle was loaded with the Speer because one of the other poker players wanted to shoot a Whelen and decided one shot was enough leaving 4 more in the magazine. Moral of story, use tough bullets for tough game and 350 pound feral hogs are tough game. Probably would have worked perfectly with a broadside hit.

Exactly why I like and use TSX or TTSX bullets. I run 180's in mine and have never been disappointed.

A TSX or TTSX could have been used in a lighter weight with more velocity and flatter trajectory. A win, win

The 220 gr. Speers are my plinking bullets basically because they are cheap for 35 caliber bullets. Though I have never killed a deer with this Whelen I bet the 220 Speer would work well on them. The 225 gr. Woodleighs work fine on hogs and I have yet to recover one as do the 250 gr. Speers, Hornady's and Partitions.

Back on topic. In my 243 and 6MM Remington I have found that 100 gr. Remington corelokts, Nosler Solid base soft points and 95 gr. Ballistic tips really seem to put deer down faster than the 85gr. Nosler Partitions I used the last two seasons. They all generally give exit holes but the Partition makes the smallest.

I know very few people personally on these Internet boards, so I tend to dismiss anything that is contrary to my experience. The only exception would be when many people come forward and to support the other claim. Again, I agree with you. A 220 gr. bullet shot from a 30-06 works on darn near anything.

Like most people here, I have a pile of firearms. For that reason, I always choose the cartridge (and therefore, the rifle) based on the game, not the bullet. WRT to premium bullets, I would never load up a Barnes or NP bullet in a 243 for example, and go out after moose, just because it might be adequate. I would use another cartridge better suited to the job.

What it boils down to, in my mind anyway, is my own knowledge of what's needed, where and what I hunt. If I go somewhere unfamiliar for larger animals, I talk to people who actually know the terrain and distances in that area, and listen to their recommendations. And I always travel with three rifles - in case of damage to my primary, or change of plan. Cup and core bullets will continue to be part of my game plan.

Lastly, my 'do anything' rifle is a 30-06.
---

Because I have a cartridge/rifle for almost everything, I have never had a reason to substitute a lead, or cup and core bullet for a Nosler/Barnes or bonded core. I don't buy the "Why cheap out on bullets?" question.

If the animal is too far away, hidden by underbrush, standing at an odd angle, or any other suspect or marginal situation, then I don't shoot. I do worry about not putting the bullet where it needs to go. For that reason, I pass on poor percentage shots. For that reason, I do not accept "XXX bullets perform better or superior to std ones for marginal/miscalculated/bone/odd angle shots."

To those people who do not have the right rifle/cartridge for a specific hunt, I suggest that they borrow or buy one. This rarely happens these days. With Savage Axis (Axes?) or Ruger American rifles around, it's hard not to add to the gun locker cheaply.

These are my thoughts and they have never let me down. Others can do what they want...as will I.

Eileen and I have a bunch of big game rifles too, like most people here, and use both cup-and-core and "premium" bullets in them. We choose the bullet according to the game and the velocity, and haven't had any problems in many years.

Anybody who thinks a Hornady Interlock Spire Point isn't an adequate deer bullet even at 3000 fps or a little more simply hasn't tried them, and in heavier weights at sub-3000 velocities they work well on bigger game. There aren't many species of big game I'd worry about hunting with 250 Interlocks from my .358 Winchester or 286's from my 9.3x62.

in my experience Nosler Ballistic Tips work very similarly to Interlock Spire Points, whether their weight when recovered, on the rare occasions they are, or how they kill stuff.

But Eileen also loads the 180 Speer Hot-Cor flatnose at around 2000 fps in her German combination gun, which is supposedly a 9.3x72R but has a .35-caliber bore. It knocks the snot out of deer and we haven't recovered one yet.

I've also use several Sierras in various cartridges, and know from long experience that the 160 GameKing works very well on deer and similar-sized game from the 7x57 Mauser, whether in North America or Africa.

But we also use several premium bullets, which work very well in specific applications too, including Barnes TSX's, Cutting Edge Raptors, Nosler Accubonds, E-Tips and Partitions, and others. Might even call Bergers premium bullets, because they act a little differently than the others listed above.

Hard to go wrong with any of today's bullets if they're used with some understanding of the ways various bullets work and can be applied. Which is why its often amusing to read very firm opinion about how one bullet or another is the absolute answer for every kind of big game hunting.

I wish that hunters and reloaders would take this to heart.

When I used to conduct reloading clinics, bullet selection always seemed to be a hot topic of discussion - but for the wrong reasons. It was usually difficult to convince people to think more about what they were shooting at, and the expected distance of encounter. I was often surprised by the number of people that did not think about high percentage shots.

Too many of them played the 'what if' game. IOW, the 1% became the main event or premier concern. It was hard for some to accept that they should be building their loads according to what's almost certainly going to happen, not the 1%.

You cannot cover every base - unless you are lucky enough to work up loads using different bullets that all shoot to the same point of aim.

Learn to pass on bad situations. Don't use the bullet as an excuse to take a marginal or poor percentage shot. And then there's the big one - know your own limitations.

This is an interesting link showing bullet performance in conjunction with velocity. It is a bit dated and does not have some of the most current bullets such as the Barnes TTSX, but it still is a very interesting comparison.

http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg

To me, the "premium" bullets are best when the chambering used is less than optimal (marginal) for the game being hunted. This would include the .24 and .25 caliber cartridges on any big game, the .270 (or smaller) on elk size game and the .30-06 on elk or bigger game. The premiums also aren't a bad idea with any chambering on game such as moose or big bears.

It's not that you can't take animals in these size ranges with cup-and-core bullets, but with a marginal chambering you have very little margin for error on a shot that is not exactly placed....or a severely angled shot that has to penetrate 12-24" (possibly through bone) to reach the vitals. The premium bullets penetrate better and give you just a bit more advantage on such shots (and I believe in all the advantage you can get....as haggle said, "prepare for the worst, not the perfect shot").

The Nosler Partition is the premium bullet all others are judged by as it expands well on rib shots, but the rear partition continues to penetrate. I have had good experiences with the bonded bullets, but they don't tend to expand as well on light game such as deer with broadside shots.

I know they are popular now, but my experiences with the various "alphabet" mono-metal bullets has not been so good. I tried the original "X" bullets and found that they were unpredictable. As long as striking velocity was kept pretty high, they expanded....most of the time. Let the velocity drop much below 2900 fps and they often tended to not expand and "pencil" through. Occasionally this would occur even when velocity was higher at close range.

Penetration was great, but the wound channel was smaller than I prefer. This can be a real problem as most who sing the praises of the "alphabet" bullets tend to use lighter weight bullets to "flatten trajectory" making longer range shots easier. Long range is the last place I'd want a mono-metal bullet as striking velocity is almost sure to fall below the level where expansion is reliable.

Mono-metal bullets (in my experience) are at their best at relatively close ranges (250 yards or so) in very high velocity (magnum) rounds....and even then they "fail" more often than I am willing to accept. Others may have better experience with these bullets, but they aren't for me.

Cup-and-core bullets (the best of them suck as the Remington Core-lokt and Hornady interlock) are great on everything from elk down and no premiums are "needed". I would suggest a slightly heavy-for-caliber bullet be used to gain a bit of penetration....such as a 150 grain bullet in the .270 or a 165 grin in the .30-06

..... esp for deer hunting.

I've loaded TSX in my 22/250 for deer, but no other chambering.

Stouter construction may help on the bigger stuff, but I wouldn't agree that there is no trade-off for smaller stuff. By way of example I shot a number of water buffalo with the Woodleigh 286 gn PP in my 9.3x74R, and they worked well, but the same bullet on several large pigs worked quite poorly really, penciling through with minimal expansion. It didn't kill nearly as well as the 220gn CorLokt I used in a borrowed .30/06 on the same trip, on much the same shots. Side-by-side comparison with Woodleigh's 286gn RN in the same calibre suggested that it would have been a better choice too, working well on both a couple of dozen buffalo and about that many big pigs - perhaps better matched to the velocity.

FWIW for the general run of deer and pigs and goats I hunt I happily use fairly soft bullets, simply because of how well they work for me. For my .30/06 for example I generally use Winchester's 150 gn Power Point, which not only shoots very accurately in my rifle but kills well on this sort of game. I remember one day for example when I took 21 pigs with 22 rounds - the extra one probably not needed but used to finish the only pig still moving after being hit. This load has also dropped quite a number of deer in their tracks. I use a similar bullet in other calibres, with similar results.

True.

Check this link.

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html

DF

Very interesting read DF.

I don't think I'd get into many arguments over a guys choice of bullets. I think they all have their place.

I like the usually quicker kills with the softer bullets and I've never lost any sleep over a few pounds of bloodshot meat.

Have seen both sides.

My first trip to South Africa is a pretty good example. I made 14 consecutive 1 shot kills with 180 grain Remington Corelocks, up to kudu, gemsbuck and zebra, loaded to 3100. We never lost sight of one animal.

A friend shot about the same number of animals with the original Barnes X out of a 7 STW.

I seemed that we hunted more after the shot than before it unless he hit bone on the entrance side.

I'm betting that the TSX, TTSX and their like preform better now but that 10 days left a pretty bad impression, although hitting bone on the entrance side sure changed things up.

The newer mono-metals seem to open and create good wound channels, especially if you're pushing them fast.

With my 26 Nos project, I can't tell the difference in kill effectiveness and wound channels between the 120 gr. E-Tip at 3.450 fps and NPT/NAB 140's at 3,300 fps.

I don't think I'd choose mono-metals for a conventional round pushing bullets at 2,650 or so. To me, those rounds do very well with cup and core; my 6.5x55 Shilen/Mauser really likes 139 Scenars at 2,650 fps.

To me it's an art, picking an optimal bullet for a particular round and the critter being hunted.

DF

Dirtfarmer nice link thanks. It reflects my experience with premium bullets on deer they seem to stay on their feet a little longer then with C&C bullets. I have also not noticed a lot of difference in killing power with different cals. 243 on up.If you want your deer to drop in or near its tracks shot for the shoulders.

Yeah, the quarter bore advocates probably loved those data, as .25 cal. deer rifles seem to perform best.

I'm not a quarter bore fan and would retort with: "too small a sampling for statistical significance"...

The more subtle the difference in measured data, the larger the cohort necessary for a definitive conclusion.

There was a significant difference between how far deer ran, hit by soft vs. hard bullets, therefore the sampling size was probably sufficient for a conclusion.

It seems with Southern WT's, soft bullets kill quicker than hard bullets.

With bigger, tougher critters, I'm sure the results would be different, thus the art of selecting the most effective ammo for the game being hunted.

DF

I read that link and it makes sense to me. I rarely take shots beyond 200 yd. When we go moose hunting or chase whitetails, the distances are almost always less than 100 yd. Probably more like 50 to 75 yd.

While I like tight groups, I save them for varmint and target work ups. For hunting bigger critters, I am more concerned that the bullet is going to strike at a certain velocity. With 30/31 cal bullets for example, my limit is 1600 to 2300 fps. That takes in a lot of real estate before it runs out of steam. About 300 yd for pointy bullets. This means I don't worry about numbers. I just test for groups by shooting out to 200 yd. I realize that this wouldn't work for someone who hunts the plains however.

Most of my hunting is done in central or northern Ontario. With the exception of shooting over a beaver meadow or a timber cut, I'd never be able to manage more than about 100 yd anyway.

For the woods, cast bullets from a 30-30 or 45-70 are fine. I'm going to try a 444 with a 265 or 310 bullet this year I think. I only use cast bullets with a huge meplat, and I don't give a fig about BC, SD or the phases of the moon. Heavy and slow is fine for me.

In fact, I really don't care about BC, SD or the phases of the moon for any bullet. BC is just a number to see where my theoretical max, distance is on paper. For pointy bullets, that's always farther than me or my equipment can go.

I'm from the school that would rather slam a deer with a bulldozer, not a sports car. For hunting bullets, if I can cover a five shot group with my fist, it works. That's approx. 2x3. I don't waste a lot of time shooting endlessly at a bench unless I can figure a way to bring a bench out to a beaver meadow.

Certainly, others can do what they want. The above rules are simply what I use. Everyone to his own thing.

DF
Very true.
I have hunted in SC and never saw a deer bigger than my dog. .257 calibers would be ideal.

^ BIG +1

Our "cult of weight retention" is crazy IMHO.

I've had nothing but great experiences from cup & core bullets on deer including core Lokts, power points, Interlocks, Hot Cors, solid bases, ballistic tips, and Pro Hunters just to name a few. I favor Interlocks & new Ballistic Tips but not because any others were lacking.

I favor behind the shoulder quartering away shots, and find both meat damage & tracking minimal with these whether using a 6-250, 257 AI, 7x57, or .30-06.

I hear this, but I have yet to experience it. I shoot deer with TSX they hit the ground.
I've actually had more deer run with cup & core bullets.

How many deer have you taken with the TSX?

I don't know about SC WT's, but in Louisiana we have river bottom, hardwood WT's and piney woods WT's. Delta deer are bigger than hill deer. I hunt river bottom deer, bucks generally are 200-225#'s, does around 140-160#'s. It would take a good sized dog...

DF

You putting those deer on a certified scale? Just curious.

Yep, we weighing them.

The only certified scales I have are at my farm and for cattle. Don't have certified at the deer camp, but pretty good std. spring type scales.

DF

Just checking, because those are really big numbers on weight for southern deer.

That said, a quarter-bore would still hammer them. A .257 Roberts might just be about the most perfect deer cartridge ever developed. The 6.5s on the x51, x55, and x57 cases are right there, too.

I hunt two properties along the Red River, 30 miles apart. The downstream area with larger bodied deer was repopulated many years ago, reportedly, with WT's from up North. The rut on the upstream property is 60 days ahead of the downstream rut. Upstream deer aren't quite as heavy and probably represent native WT's. Those does are around 120#'s, the bucks around 180#'s, although there have been a few bucks over 200#'s. The upstream deer are better protected, live longer and develop bigger racks. Culls are shot and young trophies are left to grow. On the downstream property, there is a 150 point limit, so good bucks are shot, lesser ones walk. On that property, we're growing a large population of big eight point and it takes a monster 8 point to score 150.

The numbers quoted represent the average of what we're seeing on the downstream property, every deer killed is weighed and aged, all data is recorded.

DF

That restocking information makes a lot of sense, as does the management.

And, yes, it takes a monster 8 to score 150.

Woody (or anyone) is it true Hornady dropped the SST from production or at least in some calibers? Looking for some 150gr 303s...

I think you're SOL on the SST's.

You'll never ever see me using those explosive bullets again!

DF,

There are some huge whitetails in the Mississippi Delta. Saw several when duck-hunting flooded timber there one year.

As anywhere, the body size of deer depends a lot on feed and age. There are other factors mixed in, such as altitude and latitude, but quality of food and how old they get are the biggies.

IME, it depends on velocity.

No size fits all...

DF

I never shot any in SC. A party of 4 of us never saw anything bigger than button bucks maybe 90-100 pounds. It was very unimpressive for a 5000 acre property.

Those sound about right for the WT on my family's Mississippi property. We manage them in a similar manner to what Dirtfarmer described too, so that helps.

Yep.

And, unfortunately, negative selection by hunting pressure can affect the trophy population as noted earlier. Killing 150+, letting less than 150 walk isn't a positive management plan, but in some situations it's about all you can do.

Killing older deer and letting younger ones walk is hard to do in a club setting where you have a number of shooters with varying degrees of deer judging skill. A few typically get excited and shoot what they see, thus the 150 rule with a fine.

The other property is private, not in a club. It's very secluded and the surrounding land owners got together and hired a retired game warden to patrol, which helps keep unwanted "guests" from interfering with the management protocol.

Native Delta WT's will peak out at around 8-10 yrs. and 190+ class trophies are not that uncommon. They just gotta be allowed to get that old to grow that big a rack. Otherwise, they'd be harvested at 4-5 yrs. while at 150-160 points.

Clover is planted and acorns are plentiful. Other crops like sunflowers are planted for deer and doves. The only deer feeding is on food plots. Delta ground can be that good without additional nutritional augmentation. It's all in the management.

DF

FYI, I asked Hornady about the .338 200 SST and they said it was not redesigned and in fact designed to provide "rapid expansion" and that they work well on "soft tissue." Based on my informal tests, I agree with what those statements.

Between myself and those that I hunt with 30 or more.

Sounds like they are working for you.

They certainly work as do others.

I have only used TTSXs lately. They have worked very well. Internal damage is fantastic, but I am always amazed at how small the entrance and exit holes are. Just for grins I'll shoot something different next year. Perhaps even a C&C. I will say I am now a true believer in dropping the weight and adding speed to the monos.

+1

DF

I only use bullets using depleted Uranium cores for full penetration.

Seriously, when I used to have a lot of mixed loads left over from testing,which could mean C&C round nose or spire, mono's, mixed bullet weights, charges, primers, velocities per caliber and cartridge, I often dumped the lot during culls which could be a couple of dozen animals to a hundred and more at a time and there really was no standout failures if placed well.

The exception was when the property owner was there with us, every now and then he would call "round nose" as he could tell both by sounds and reaction, when they were slipped into the mix.

Huntz,

Quite a while ago some rifle loony called me out of the blue, mostly to list his theories on almost everything. I can only remember one, which was: "I refuse to use bullets unless they're bonded!" I was tempted to ask about licensed and insured as well, but somehow refrained.

Absolutely. A bullet design for a 300 Savage will not be work at least for me in my 300 WM.

If loaded in the 300 Savage they might not be explosive.

I should have been more explicit.

I've had a Sierra Game 165 grain bullet shot out of an 06 that didn't travel through the doe's shoulder. To me that meant it was too explosive for an '06. But it might be OK in a 300 Savage. Each bullet design is good for certain velocities. With the new high tech bullets the velocity spread is much wider than the older cup and core bullets. I agree with you (Dirtfarmer) and as I said I should have been more exact in my answer. Some of the cup and core bullets are better than others though as they have a wider velocity spread of acceptable performance, in my opinion. So, if I were to be hunting a Mule Deer and was expecting a 250 yard shot, but came up on one 10 yards away (say angling away) it would be much better if I had a partition or other bullet designed for a wide range of velocity than a bullet that was designed for optimum performance 2300 to 2700 fps and I was using a rifle that was pushing the bullet 3,000 fps from the muzzle.

All this discussion is the reason I find the Partition so compelling. It is essentially a C&C in the front with a go-through-anything at any speed part in the back. A truly remarkable design.

Reminds me of over heard bullet discussions at the local pawn shop-Gun store.I just listen and giggle in my mind!!!

Sorry about that. The Tumbleweeds were flowin'.



Travis

This^^^^.

Currently out of production. Here's the latest production list that I've seen published. Don't know if it's current since it's the 2014 list.

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/2014ProductionList6302014.pdf

That combo could have been the original stimulus for the McFlame gunstock...

Just saying...

DF

oz: This may be a cultural thing, unique to Oz and Africa.

Making a jump from water buffalo to pigs was not exactly what I was talking about. I was thinking more along the lines of the guy who takes his 270 or 280,or 30/06 after everything from pronghorn to bull elk or moose in the same season, for which leaving the Barnes TTSX at home because it may not be theoretically "perfect" for the deer sized stuff(the deer MIGHT take a step or two more with lung shots), but very good for the bull elk,is not how I'd role. I'd rather shoot the deer with the elk bullet than shoot the elk with the deer bullet.

Never having shot a water buffalo, I can intuitively imagine that a tough bullet,driven at modest 9.3x74 velocities,and intended to deal with buffalo weighing (what?) 1500-1700 pounds,might not be your best bet for the cross canyon elk, or 200# pigs at any distance,and i can see the pigs being drilled with lung shots and going a distance.

Me, I'd shoot them on the shoulder with a 375H&H.....Rhetorical question,.but why people judge the worth of BG bullets based on lung shots only, is beyond me,since animals have bones.


So, that being said, I will stand by what I stated before...and to put it in context,I'd reach for the Partition or TTSX for the uses I stated.I've seen far more consistent and reliable results on deer to elk sized game from Partitions (and other "controlled expanding bullets")than from anything else I've seen used or used myself.

I have seen that 150 PP used on deer and bull elk. It did a good job on both but certainly no better than stouter stuff I've used.

Personally I never understood the fuss over C&C bullets vs those of more robust construction,which are demonized by some as being "unnecessary", or too expensive, or over penetrate,or whatever other imaginary characteristics they might have. The job of any BG bullet is to penetrate and expand....day in and day out penetration is more important,and in the better designs expansion is more controlled over a wider velocity spectrum and more types of mediums than most C&C's can muster.

That skinny jacket is really old technology.

Bob,

Well reasoned, well stated.

As always.

DF

I'll always err on the side of penetration.

I'm guessing bullet 'cost' might be a factor when I start shooting 500 head of big game animals a year.

Yeah, I hear stuff about bullet costs.

If I was target shooting and buying them by the thousands, that's an issue.

For hunting and shooting a few rounds each season, performance is center stage, cost not even on the radar screen. Most of my shooting is working up loads. Once I have an optimal load for a particular gun, I load a few boxes and it doesn't get shot that much. Especially since I have a number of hunting rifles.

DF

Justification for having only one gun!

But then, you'd have to turn in your Loony card....

Not to disagree, but, many hunters, who shoot a few dozen shots a year, worry more about cost than the target shooters who shoot the most. Accuracy guys will not compromise on their equipment, targets do not bleed, but they do tell they story in a very clear way.

Well, I'm trying to understand.

But, with the cost of gas, license, leases, equipment, hunting in general, I don't see how a few cents difference in bullet costs gets on the radar. I try to watch my pennies, but bullet costs aren't on the list.

DF

Well, there are still a bunch of us out here who don't spend anything on leases, nothing on feed or food plots and little to nothing on gas because we do much of our hunting out the back door. Besides all that, I've never had a well placed, plain vanilla bullet fail to produce a dead deer in short order so see no need for anything else.

I never worry about the price of a bullet that I put threw a game animal it is all the bullets I use getting to that point. Working up a load, zero check at 20 to 300 yards, by the time I am done I have dumped a lot of those fancy 50ct bullets into a dirt back stop.

driftless

You hit the nail on the head. You can get in a lot of practice with good old cup and core. Not so much with premiums especially the monometal type. And C&C do kill and well.

Specifically for whitetails, particularly our Southern variety where a 180 pounder is a big one, quick opening bullets of tipped or cup and core construction DO indeed do a better/quicker job of putting them down in their tracks, or very close to where they were hit. I've field dressed well over 300 deer, and "autopsied" nearly every one, and FWIW, if anyone's interested, the most consistent and best overall results were often with the .270 Win. 130 gr. bullets and the simple, humble little .30/30 with the quciker opening bullets like the Core Lokt and Silvertips, or similar. This, I believe, is simply because the bullets in those calibers are EXPRESSLY designed for the velocities of the .270 Win and the humble little .30/30. In the '06 and .308's, the 150's do best and kill quickest. In the 6mm's, it doesn't seem to matter what bullet you use from the 85 gr. and up in wt. - they all seem to do a good job. In the .25's, I've not yet seen one shot with a .257 Wby., but short of that, the 100 grainers seem to put them down like lightning. Haven't seen many shot with 6.5's, but a buddy used to shoot long shots on a railroad track through some prime woods, and took several at over 600, two at just over 700, and he used the 100 gr. in his .264 Win. Mag. so the bullets would expand well at such long range. He rarely got a shot at under 400, and very few at 300. Then one day he got a shot at what he says was the biggest racked buck of his life, and it was less than 100 yds. when he pulled the trigger. That deer fell like the rug had been pulled out from under him, and he nearly broke his arm trying to pat himself on the back as he climbed down from his tree stand. Half way down, he noted the deer trying to get up. He hied down to the ground and got his rifle at the ready, but it looked so sick he just KNEW it was going to fall again. It didn't, though. And being very close to thick cover, one quick leap and bound and it was gone. He never found that deer. So .... one CAN go TOO far with the quick opening bullet thing. Some other friends alsoo became quite enamored of the .22/.250, and got lightning like kills .... for a while. Then all of a sudden, they started losing some deer. They were using 55 gr. Hornady SP's. They were recoil sensitive and had been placing shots well, but got lax, and those "miracle bullets" quit working at all. Yes, they WILL work IF they're placed well on broadside shots on smaller deer. Change any factor there, and .... well, you know, don't you?

As with all other factors involved in hunting, bullet selection needs to be approached with some decent judgment, and not based on what your buddies are doing, or what's getting written up lately. It needs to be based on what works, and what works CONSISTENTLY when shots are placed reasonably well, at minimum. NO bullet works well when a deer is only hit in a leg or fringed. NONE!

Now when the game gets bigger, say in the 300 lb. and over range, I can't say what works with any authority because I'm just a whitetail hunter. Had an elk hunt planned once, but it fell through, but I still have the .35 Whelen Ackley I built for the trip. I'm not a big fan of most magnums, ordinarily, because of the extra requirements they place on bullets. Nobody seems to talk about that today, but we probably should hear more about that, I think?

I know way too many good ol' boys who've taken many deer with the .22 LR to think that magnums are "necessary." Good HUNTERS could probably get their venison with a spear or a big rock! In reality, we concentrate MUCH more on the equipment we acquire and simply WANT, when we should probably concentrate more on HOW we hunt, and it'd be great if we stopped judging a hunt by what we bring home and its size, and started appreciating the hunt itself, and the thrills therein. But ... I'm just a dumb country boy down in the swamps, so what'a I know? I just have heaps of fun doing simple stuff that MEANS something to me more than bragging rights among my friends, so I guess I'm just out'a touch. I see so few today who even WANT to become better hunters, but who love to play the game of "He who dies with the most toys wins," that I find it harder and harder to find good companionship for a good and satisfying hunt - whether I kill anything or not.

A buddy had his turkey hunt ruined by a BMW driving Atlanta Yuppie Scum type. He'd set up and located a gobbler, and all was progressing well, if slowly, when the BMW barreled past toward where he'd seen 5 more fly to an open field not far away. The Beemer stopped rather quickly, and he heard 5 loud shots. 5 turkeys flew right past my buddy, and they were low, so he threw up his gun, tracked the lead gobbler, and said, "Bang! You're dead," lowered his unfired gun, and gathered up his stuff to leave, and the AYS plodded heavily up to him and asked if he'd seen any turkeys come by. My buddy said very calmly and soberly, "Why yes. I did. They went that'a way," and pointed up the steepest, nastiest and toughest hill in that part of the country. He left before verifying the , ALS took the bait, but personally I hope he did. I guess I"m just not a nice or very PC kinda' guy. But I DO have fun! And I do NOT apologize for any of it, either. YMMV.

If you can't figure out how to match tag and paper bullets you should take up golf.

Any of you fine gents have any luck - or not - with Nosler Ballistic Silver Tips? Just wondering how they compare to other C&C, especially the regular old BTs.

Steelhead.?????

They're the same bullet as the Ballistic Tips, with a black coating.

Guy

Does the coating really do anything? Or is it just marketing hype? You know, like some fishing lures catch more fishermen than they do fish.

Stealhead

I do know how to match tag and paper. But the obsession with premium bullets is just that an obsession, not reality. Cup and core bullets have been killing game for a long time. And I bet that the majority of game killed in the US is killed by cup and core bullets. Two years ago I killed a bull elk with a 180 gr Hornady SP from a 300 WSM took the top of his heart out, went 3 feet straight down. There is nothing wrong with C&C. I do prefer Nosler Partition but in this case Hornady shot much better. PRT gives the best of both worlds soft point and tough rear. At SPS prices the partition is a bargain but at full retail not so much. I do not buy the shot at any angle either, a bad shot is a bad shot. Throwing a premium hail mary is not hunting.

A hard angle shot is not a bad shot as long as the bullet has the ability to reach the vitails.