John,

Don't know if you've been following the most recent thread on Winchester primers, but I've decided to switch to CCI and Feds rather than risk any damage to my rifles.

Some time ago I read that match and benchrest primers are the same as the regular ones, just "grouted" by the most skillful workers and theoretically, more consistent. My question is, do you think that the match and BR primers give better accuracy in "ordinary" hunting rifles, or are they a waste of money (or, in the case of 210Ms, a waste of time hunting them down)?

I realize that my question would be best answered by experimenting with my own rifles and loads, but local availability of primers remains spotty, and selection very limited, so online bulk purchase is the only practical option.

Thanks.

Would 1.5" to 1.6" ten shot groups at 200 yards be sufficient for your purposes?

If so, then the regular primers will do.

Disclaimer: I'm not JB and I don't play him on the internet.

I had a lot of WLR that had a couple pinhole leaks damaging a Rem 700 bolt face. I switched from the WLR to Fed 210's in a 270 Win last summer. Worked up loads again and found same/same velocity/accuracy in my rifle with the same powder charge.

Not exactly what you asking but may help you decide.

It would indeed.

John definitely is the go-to guy for this stuff, but advice from experienced and talented "amateurs" is always welcome, and expected when posting here.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

I'll also say said groups were shot with thrown charges of extruded powder, including long stick IMR 3031, and were aimed via 6x magnification.

The only "tricks" involved were a target well suited to the distance/reticle/magnification and straight cartridges.

I've been using Fed 210 and 210M in my .308 and '06 loads for a while, but generally used WLRs in my .270. Now that I'm down to about 100 white box WLRs, rather than chance the blue box ones, I'm bailing on the Winnies altogether. Not worth the risk.

Yeah, I am having the same Win failures so I am going to stop using the winnies and go 100% to the Fed 210 Match that I have on hand.

Hate to sell my winnies to someone, but......

I am really wondering if JB knows anything about Winchester Ammunition as far as any attempt on their part to solve their problem and how one can actually get in touch with a human being there that can really do something about replacements or damage.

Tim

I "throw" my charges into an e-scale with Lee dippers and trickle up or down with the same scoop. After a bit, I get pretty good at eyeballing a tenth or so. Had a free BR30, but never got the knack of throwing really consistent charges, so I sold it. I do use a Little Dandy for some handgun loads.

I've quit weighing so much and let the targets tell me if the load is consistent enough.

I also learned to quit weighing individual charges when setting up a powder measure. That leads to tail chasing. I'll throw and weigh ten charges together. Suppose that comes to 420 grains. Then I call the charge weight for that measure setting 42 grains and start dispensing charges.

I don't mind spending the time and understand that the results probably don't exceed those of thrown charges.

Everybody needs an outlet for their OCD side, and this lets me keep mine in the basement, and out of trouble with the War Department. Frees up a little bench space as well.

While I have some concerns about the Winchester primers and have heard quite a bit about failures, I have been using them (though not exclusively) for the last twenty years and will likely go ahead and use up what's left.
I have often seen a difference on the target between match primers and standard primers but not always has the advantage gone to the match primers. I had one bunch of Federal Small Rifle Match primers which would not shoot as well as any standard primer, from any manufacturer, including Federal, in the 6BR I was trying them in. I tried a couple of boxes then sold the rest. GD

Pappy,

As noted in the chapter on primers in THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK, I do know the only difference between CCI "BR" and Federal "M" primers and the standard stuff is more consistency, partly (but not totally) due to the people trained to spread the compound more consistently. This probably won't make any noticeable difference in the accuracy of most rifles, and may not even in super-accurate rifles. But the BR's and M's are there for people who want everything in their handloads to be as consistent as possible. (I don't know how Remington makes 7-1/2 small rifle "Bench Rest" primers.)

I've gone through the same choices everybody else has during this high-demand, low-supply period, and a couple of years ago decided to switch to primers I could find and buy. I'd been using CCI 200's and various CCI small-rifle primers for many years with fine results, but had generally used Federal 215's for magnum primers. Tried CCI 250's in the same loads I used 215's (or 215M's) in and accuracy was a good or sometimes better.

Still have a smaller supply of other brands of LR primers, just because I need to include them in testing for articles, but stocked up heavily on 200's and 250's.

After considerable experimenting with small-rifle primers, settled on Tula KVG223's as my "mild" rifle primer, and CCI 450's as my magnum. (The 250 also works fine in AR-15's, due to the thick cup.)

Most of this was done with on-line orders during sales, when buying in bulk made them a very good deal despite the hazmat fee. Once in a while I find CCI's for a decent price in stores, but on-line is my main supply source these days.

greydog,

I've seen the same thing with "match"/standard primers more than occasionally.

Also, Federal 205M's are a relatively mild primer. They work well with the small-granule extruded powders favored by short-range benchrest shooters, but with spherical powders (and some extruded powders) they don't work so well. In fact, in an extensive test I did in the .22 Hornet, 205M's produced the worst results with Li'l Gun, while CCI 450's worked best.

My OCD side is involved in the runout issue.

I guess I'll wait for a good opportunity to stock up, local or online, and add some 200s or BRs to the stash. My regular LGS has held the line on prices, but was limiting purchases to 500 for a while. Others shops have gone the gouger route, up to $6.95 per C. No thanks.

Thanks John, and the rest too.

LGS has CCI BR, for less than Midway and no shipping or hazmat.

Whoo hoo!

I'm not at all JB...

But I've a couple of years shooting competition, at some fair distances, and with some fair guns and fair results.

What I can say is while I try to research and find which primer might be most common with which powder, I keep every brand on hand that I can find...

I have found, that primer choice in a given load can do anything from cut group size in half to double or triple group size to almost no change at all.

Obviously you might skirt this by continually searching a load though... I mean if you are having issues with X grains and Y primer, Y primer can usually work if you keep playing with all the other variables.

In the end having primers is obviously better than having none. Its why I try to keep on hand a couple of cases of the top choices.

Some things are no brainer combos.. like Varget in a 223, you need look no furhter than CCI BR4. But you can get others to work almost as good.

Granted I"m usually pretty picky about accuracy. Even with factory guns.

I don't need "cases", but like to keep ahead of any potential supply issues like we've been through of late. Fortunately, the panic situation seems to have ended here, so that I'm able to buy by the brick instead of two to five boxes at a time. The selection remains limited, however. My LGS only has BR2s and WLRs at present. CCIs seem to be among the brands regularly available, so appears to be a good choice to standardize on, with F210s in "reserve".

I should have clarified, I keep a couple of cases of ones I know I use normally, and then try to keep at least 500 or 1000 of most every kind I can buy... for load work ups.

The only issue then, if I find something is MUCH better with a primer I don't have a case of... I have to start searching. LOL.

Jeff,

Yeah, that's basically what I do as well.

Have lucked out on finding some of the scarcer primers (such as Federal 215M's) at estate sales in the past year or two.

Have also been pleasantly surprised when testing some foreign primers, which as somebody already mentioned are often cheaper and more available than American-made primers these days.

Just did an inventory and I'm fairly well fixed, but now that I've got a .223 again, I need to pick up some more SRs. I'd be happy to try the Tulas, but they're just not available locally, and my limited needs make paying hazmat too pricey.

One of the older packs of CCIs had the price marked on it- $1.45!

Where does one find foreign primers? I've never seen them here in PA.

On Internet sites.

I've seen the Tula's at a gun show or two also, granted, a year or so back.

Geno

Powder Valley has not had Tula Primers for a while. I wonder what's going on with that...

John

So, in a nut shell:
--No one knows how to actually make contact with Win Ammunition and to be able to get any relief from the problems with their WLR primers.

--Everyone is just quietly going to other makers as available and letting their Win primers set or selling them off to unsuspecting users.

I was hoping that someone would actually be in the know or the loop on this.

I guess if I label primers with a disclaimer at gun show, I would them with the knowledge that their are some issues.
Not the best solution in my mind, but...
Tim

This is the place:

http://www.winchester.com/Product-Service/Pages/Contact-Us.aspx

I don't know what they'll do for you, but others have reported that they will send out a truck for defective primers, replace them, and reimburse you for repairs to your rifle. I requested information about bad lot numbers and got back a form letter. Perhaps a complaint about actual damage will do better.

There's another thread here about this with a list of lot numbers known to have issues, plus some added single lot numbers. I spent an hour or so surfing around and came up with a whole bunch more from various forums, more than I have time to type in. Gven that I've got maybe $50 worth of WLRs, none of which are from the reportedly bad lots, it's easiest to just bail on them. I'll try to sell or give them away, with full disclosure, and move on.

I've never visited their site before today. Looks like they have good prices, but seem to be out of everything everyone else is out of. It's one more place to look, though. Thanks.

In the past my local Sportsmans Warehouse has had Tula primers. But now-a-days they seem about as common there as Federal 210M's or 215M's...

One thing about Tula small-rifle primers (and some other brands) is they offer several models, which differ in cup hardness/thickness.

The Tula SR primer I'm using is their "softest," the KVB-223. Despite the model name, they don't recommend it for AR-15's, or any other cartridge where pressures are normally much over 50,000 PSI.

But I load a lot of cartridges where standard SAAMI pressures don't exceed 50,000, including the .17 Hornady Hornet and .22 Hornet, and 50,000 is the SAAMI maximum average pressure for the .222 Remington. The KVB-223 works fine in all three of those rounds, and I've also had no problems with it in the .17 Fireball (SAAMI MAP 55,000), where accuracy was as good as with any other primer, and in normal loads in bolt-action .223's. But I usually use tougher-cup primers in the .223, because I might use any of my .223 handloads in an AR-15.

If you tend to push pressures by working up loads until you encounter "pressure signs," you'll probably encounter some with the Tula KVB-223. It would not, for instance, be a primer I'd recommend for the .223 Ackley Improved, or any of the factory rounds where SAAMI pressures (and hence published loading data) exceed 55,000 PSI. The list of such cartriges might surprise you. As an example, while the .17 Fireball's SAAMI MAP is only 55,000 PSI, the .221 Fireball's is 60,000.

Some other small-rifle primers aren't recommended for higher-pressure rounds, including the Remington 6-1/2. I describe the history and reasons behind all this in my new handloading book, but thought posting a caution here would also be a good idea.

Just a note: This is of course indirect evidence, but chrono results suggest the S&B 5.3LR primer is pretty mild. In a number of tests** it has been about 25 fps behind the CCI200 with several powders.

**Ten shot strings over an Oehler 35P

Thanks Pappy348
I will put in my complaint and see what response comes back.
Tim

I need to reload some 308 ammo for an AR10. But I can’t find any CCI #34 primers around here or in Houston. I don’t want to order off the web because of the hazardous material shipping charge. What would be a safe primer for a 308 auto? I have CCI 200 & 250, Federal 210, 210M, 215 & 215M, Winchester LR and Wolf LRM in my loading room. The Winchester LR primers are older and I have had no problems loading them in 25-06 and 308 bolt guns.

Richard

I've gathered that the CCI200 is fine for avoiding slam fires in M1A loads.

I had a talk with a long-time CCI employee about the mil-spec primers a year or so ago. It turns out they don't have thicker cups, as many people believe, or even "lower" anvils. Instead they have more rounded anvils, which helps prevent slam-fires when primers are seated slightly "proud" of the case-head.

The biggie is making sure any of them are seated deeply enough, but I have run thousands of BR-4's and 450's in various AR-15's with zero slam-fires.

Dang it, now I need to swap from WLR and WLRM to Federal.

I used to be happily ignorant...




P

I know what you mean about the 6-1/2s. I was using 7-1/2s in my .222, but switched to the sixes after reading Pet Loads, even though Ken's update used the sevens. Backed 1/2 grain off my powder charge to keep the primers looking pretty after firing. May have picked up a tenth or two in accuracy, maybe not. But, I've got a brick to go through, and minute-of-Coffeemate-bottle at 300 meters is fine for me.

LOL I still have packs of primers in the CENTS range of pricing...

I have a powder can, sans powder, IIRC, somewhere, around 1.?? or 2.?? dollars...

What year did problems with Winchester primers seem to surface? All my WLR's are marked with a sharpie purchased from the 2005-2007 year range. (have a good supply)

They are all I use to load the LeverEvolution rounds for our nine 30-30 rifles.

I did once see a partial lot number list but was wondering what approximate years they were produced?

PM sent Roadkill.

Winchester 1-618-258-2738 Sharon.

fwiw
I never had any problems with the silver colored Win WLR primers.
The problem started for me with the change to the brass colored version out now.
Thanks for the info 10gaugemag.
Tim

The Great Ammo Scare of a couple years ago caught me flat footed regarding small pistol primers, with which I prime my Hornet cases. My 86 year old shooting buddy donated a couple sleeves of truly ancient Alcan SP primers from his mountain of supplies that largely dates back to the 60's. I immediately noticed a marked improvement with my Hornet cast bullet loads (which have largely replaced my .22RF shooting) over those previously loaded with CCI SP primers. Then I found myself dreading running out of them and having to go back to "modern" primers. Frank laughed and gave me the rest of his stash- a whole case of them.

He also gave me a large pile of old (30's-40's vintage?) FA-70 primers (Frankford Arsenal). Corrosive LR primers used for all gov't rifle ammo from the 20's to the early 50's, but with the reputation among handloaders of a bygone era as being very consistent in nature and immune to adverse storage conditions/usage conditions (which was why the gov't stuck with them long after the rest of the country went to non-corrosive types). What the heck, I thought, might as well try them. Darned if they don't work beautifully (no accuracy difference from the Holy CCI's I normally use) and are a welcome addition to the "rainy day" primer stash. So what if I have to thoroughly clean the bore after shooting them- I clean it anyway.

I called the contact 10gaugemag noted above and left a message. I received a call back in 3 hours from Sharon.

She will be sending packaging for me to return some of the failures I still have.
She also will be sending packaging to return the primers I have on hand (hazmat).

She said the newer primers (my lots go back to 2008) are without problems and will replace old returned with new.

She asked about gun damage, but I didn't feel I had enough to warrant repair.

She would not actually admit to a problem, just the offer to make replacement.

Sounds ok so far.

Tim

I'm going to check the lots on the WLR and WLRM I have.



P

Good for you.

I still wish they would just reveal the lot numbers that have had issues so we don't have to guess. They surely have some info on that by now.

As it is I'm still going with Plan B.

Yea...I'd like lot numbers, but I think my "brass" win primers are only about 3 years old...most I've heard about appear to be older.

Update:

On a whim, I called the number above and got Sharon, live. I gave her the lot numbers I had on hand and she is sending out packaging for returning them. I've got to say that I'm impressed with her and with the company's response. Stuff happens; what matters is how it's handled. This is much better than Plan B.

Are we talking pierced primers?

Are there any reports of this same burn through failures of WLRM Magnum large rifle primers or only the WLR standard large rifle primers.

In searching, the common factors seem to be:
WLR Std large rifle primers
Copper colored cups
Blue box
Lot numbers beginning with "C" or "D" (mostly "D")

I don't have any WLR primers, but I do have about 3000 WLRM primers. I'd like to know if this problem has been seen in the WLRM primers or if the WLRM are probably GTG.

No. The failures are cup failures around the corners or edges.

The list I have involves many lot numbers, not just C or D. One of the lots I'm sending back per Winchester starts with H.

Where does one get the list Pappy?

HLL?

I started with a list I picked up here on another thread, from JB I think. The rest I gathered from other websites by googling " defective Winchester primers" or something of the sort. The list is by no means comprehensive or authoritative, simply a compilation of internet chatter from folks claiming to have experienced problems with the Winny LRs. Take it for what it is.

The best thing to do, I believe, is to contact Winchester at the number listed above and ask about the lot numbers you have. Neither of the lot numbers I have was listed anywhere, but Winchester is still going to recall and replace them.

I'll update the list I posted earlier in a bit, after linking up my Bluetooth keyboard to my iPad.

Okay, here's what I've got.

Once again, these lot numbers are simply ones that have been reported as problematic by internet posters. I have no way of knowing if the information is correct, or that other lots not listed are okay. It's your responsibility to contact Winchester for specific information.

LOTS REPORTED BY USERS ONLINE:

CAL401G
CFL486G
CLL555G
DAL594G
DFL717G
DHL766G
DNL 837G
DNL836G
EAL234G
GDL 225G
GEL 250G
DML834G WLR
EAL234G WLRM
CLL555G
CCL435G
EHL067G
DHL774G
DHL788G
DAL594G
CAL401G
GDL255G
GFL284G
DGL741G
FEL255G
DGL731G
DKL801G
HLL692G
DHL765G
DFL713G
DLL826G
DFL723G
DEL690G
CLL552G
DGL747G

LOTS IN MY POSSESSION RECALLED BY WINCHESTER:

CGL499G
HKL687G

I have these:

WLRM
HAL340G
HBL349G
HFL382G
KEL424G

WLR
HCL501G
DHL762G
KDL044G
YAL243G
YAL245G

None of these lots are on the list so far.




P

As noted a couple of times above, the list is just a list of internet chatter. I quit searching when I got tired of writing down numbers, not because there weren't more to write. What it tells me is that there were a lot of affected lots. Winchester hasn't gone so far as to issue a general recall, but is for now willing to address the issue case by case.

Be safe and call.

Pappy,

That's a LOT more than I came up with after making a similar Internet search a year or so ago.

Thanks for the list Pappy. I've got four full boxes of WLR's and one box of WLRM's - all purchased in the last three years or so. None match the numbers on the list but some are only off by a digit or two. Excellent info on the contact at Winchester - will call Monday and see what they say about my lot numbers.

About half way thru another WLR box (lot number also not on the list) purchased in the same general timeframe and never noticed any issues - need to go take a close look at the bolts on those rifles also.

Great info everyone - will post my experience and lot numbers after the call with Winchester.

Some of those came from Oz and NZ, I believe. Those guys were trying to get their issues resolved through their distributers, IIRC.

Will do.


P

Does this affect any of the SMALL rifle primers?

I don't know.

Feel free to Google away.

I haven't run into any mention of SR primers during my Internet searches.

I just got off the phone with Winchester and will add my experience with them. I called on Friday and left a message with Sharon. A Kirstin returned my call Friday afternoom and left me a message and a different phone number to call back. She asked me to provide her with the lot numbers that I had and she checked to see if there were any reported problems with those particular lot numbers. She informed me my primers appeared to be ok.

So while I guess new primers from them woukd have been the ideal solution, I have more peace of mind that my primers are safe.

Thanks

" appear to be ok" almost kind of sounds like we've got our fingers crossed we don't hear any more about new lot numbers?

I've got some lot numbers pretty close to the reported problem ones.. I know I've got my fingers crossed lol.

I received the cartons from Winny today to send my primers back. 1 carton for Magnum and 1 carton for Standards. Will email contact and get them on their way tomorrow. They should have received my 2 cases I sent them a week ago so waiting to see what they say about those.

My lot numbers appear okay too but they still had me send in almost 600 primers. Hoping for some kind of reimbursement for those as I am out almost $30.

I called today, read my lots off the list. She said she'd check and call me back.

I got a return call on my message line, one lot is bad, she didn't tell me which, I'll call her back tomorrow.




P

I was cleaning my 270 WSM this past weekend and noticed a primer sized soot ring around the firing pin. It was thick enough to take a dental pick and scrape it off. There was no damage to the boltface. The load was a less than book max charge of H4350 sparked by WLR primers in new WW brass. There was no damage to the boltface.

Examining the fired cases revealed no signs of leakage, But the soot is coming from some place.

I have noted in the past that WLR primers are under size and seat somewhat loosely in the pocket. I just measured primers from 4 different lots of WLR. They ranged in size from .2100"-.2103". One lot of WLRM measured .2103". A CCI 200 measured .2111". A SAAMI diagram I came across specifies minimum diameter for a large rifle primer as .2105".

My guess is I am getting some minor leakage around some primers, but I can't see it on the case. I suspect some of the problems of failure being reported are at the least exacerbated by the under size diameter.

Anyone else have the soot ring without a pierced primer?

405wcf

Sharon got back to me this morning. She wants the following lots back:

HBL
HFL
DHL
HCL
HAL

So beware, gents.



P

Well... I had a few of one of those lot numbers and just gave em a toss.
What phone number are you guys calling if I can ask....I guess I need to call on others.

Kraky

618-258-2738 and you will probably talk to Sharon. I left a message with her and Kristin called me back and left the number 618-258-3453. Kristin is the one who checked my lot numbers against the 'master' list that they have.

Sharon told me Winchester would replace my primers or cash me out. Now I'm torn. She said the new primers are proven and all the same lot.



P

I never did get them to openly admit my primers were bad; they just sent me a new case. Not sure I want to use them though.

In my experience with this problem, all Winchester large rifle and large pistol primers are suspect. I've had issues with both sizes in multiple lots. I gave them another try when primers were hard to get, thinking it may have been a one-time quality control fluke, silly me. Apparently Winchester has a serious quality issue and refuses to fix it.

Never had an issue with their small rifle or pistol primers, but I've mostly been using other brands of those.

Just off the phone with Sharon. They want all mine back - here are the Lot Numbers:

WLRM:
DFL188G

WLR:
DEL702G
DFL719G
GEL258G

I had two partial boxes of loaded cartridges which used WLR's from one of the lots above - one for my 9.3x62 and one for a .25/06. Fortunately, I did not de-prime the brass yet. Nothing interesting on the fourteen fired 9.3x62 cases. However, one of the eleven fired .25/06 cases had a small are of soot from the edge of the primer out to edge of the rim. Could not see anything wrong with the primer, but did not take it out to look. Sharon asked me to send this fired case back - they are issuing a call tag and UPS will pick it up.

Both rifles which used this primer lot each a very small amount of pitting which looks like it could have come from the primer. One bolt has one spot and the other two spots. She offered to pay for repair, but I really don't want to mess with either rifle as they are great shooters and I'm concerned machining down the bolt face will change headspace and the barrel will need to be set back. Maybe that's irrational, but I will live with them the way they are. Mine don't look near as bad as some of the photos on the web!

Thats my experience - only took one phone call to the right person. Thanks for those of you who dug up the information.

Phil

For those of you sending primers back, are you sticking with the replacement primers or switching brands?




P

I went and checked my supply of WW primers.

Mag.

HKL393G

STD

WHL101G
XML203G

No problems with any of these yet, but I have had several leaks with some WW factory primed 264 Mag cases. No way of knowing what lot number primers those are. The brass was bulk packed.

I only have 1 partial brick (624/1000) of some WLR's with lot # XKL179G. I called Susan and left a message a few hours ago asking for information on that lot. I will give an update with their response.

Burned two pits (slow learner)in a model 70 bolt face with WLR primers a couple years ago. 2 rounds in a hundred or so primers that I know of(DFL722 G). They were the best performing primer with one powder combination.

I had decapped and saved primers from three rounds and saved them for some reason. Had quit using the WLR primers but often tempted to try another 2 lots I had.

As a result of this thread I called winchester. Emailed a photo of bolt face and primer with pinhole and cracked side.

Sounds like they want the fired primers. Asked if I had Any Loaded cartridges. It also sounds like they want all three lots back.

I am not sure the know the extent of any problem.

Thanks for the heads up.

I'm going to give the replacements a shot. They seem to be trying to work this out. It would be foolish of them to go to all this trouble only to send out more bad ones.

Like someone said earlier, I like to keep a few different types around so I can follow book data as close as possible, at least to start. Some combos, like Varget in the .308 are not too fussy; others can go South (maybe North?) pretty quick when you start substituting stuff.

I'm going to take the replacement primers - but will keep a close eye on them.

+1.

I left a message for Sharon who called me back within a day. I gave her the lot # of the WLR primers (GML424G; quantity of 1,000). She asked if I had experienced any problems and I told her that I had not used them yet. She indicated that, though there were no reported issues with this Lot # of WLRs, she would be sending a package in which I could return them just to be sure. I also gave her Lot #s for WSP & WSPM primers I had on-hand but those are apparently ok, since she she did not indicate a need to return these. Sharon was very pleasant and responsive.

I got my call back today and there have been no reported issues with lot XKL. Sharon asked if I was reporting issues with it. I have no pitting on any of the bolt faces the primers have been used in and have never noticed any evidence of a leaky primer. I was simply calling to verify if that lot had reported to be problematic. She repeated that it is not a lot that is known to have issues but to call her back and let her know if I experience some.

I will use up my old Staynless Winchester primers and may use new ones from Winchester if they send me some, otherwise I will be buying Federal , CCI or Remingtons dependent upon availability.

I reported the 5 lot numbers I have on hand and Sharon called today wanting all of them back. 5 unopened bricks and 1 with only 2 1/2 boxes left in it.
BDL
DHL
CFL
EFL
DFL
I have 2 bolts that are damaged, just not sure it's enough to worry with till they get rebarreled.
Guess I'll have to order a collet puller to break down the loaded ammo I have on the shelf.

Are there any reported problems with wlr white box primers purchased in the early 90's ?

Not that I've heard, but call her anyway.



P

I called Sharon and it seems my WLR supply is among the lots they want back. I'm giving her exact counts today.

So - what primer to switch to? I've used Winchester because they were a bit warmer than the others plus I shoot alot of loads in the 55-60 grain range in my 06 based cartridges. I've always liked a slightly hotter primer. I know CCI 200 are pretty mild.

What are you guys switching to?

I've gotten good results with F210 and 210M, as well as CCI BR2. They're all good, just some may be better than others in your loads. If you're going to switch, pick up a pack or two of whatever you find available, test them, and then buy a bunch of the ones you like best.

When I get them, I'm going to use the new Winchesters for the same stuff I always have. Getting good replacments straight from Winchester should let me avoid the Russian Roulette of buying new ones off the shelf.

I made the switch to all winchester a while back. I only have a couple thousand WLR so a direct switch only gets through a year of less. I've been using up various other primers in non-hunting loads and am down to a thousand or so there as well. I've looking at stocking up again but am not sure at this point. I've always liked Federals but getting has been as issue in my neck of the woods.

Called Kristen. The lot I got while not finding any others (usually go CCI 1st, then Feds) is one that she said isn't on the list but quite close (within a couple of months of manufacturing) to some that have been a problem and so she's sending me the box for return. IMO they're handling this very well.

Why switch? Just get new WW primers?

I'm doing that as well as trying Fed 210. When they say they aren't doing anything different but just had a few bad lots - and are doing a rather large recovery operation - I'm a bit leery.

Is this what we're talking about:



?

Pretty much, as well as a face full of gas in my case. My first one had a wee bit of smoke coming from the rear of the bolt is how I was tipped off then 3 or 4 shots later the gas in the face and lost primer.

Ok gotcha.

Interesting. That happened to me a couple summers ago and I thought it very strange. I think I may have even posted that pic here before asking what da dileo.

It was a WLRM which I always use under Ramshot powders, in this case Hunter in a 257 Roberts.

The bolt smoked, but I didn't feel anything in my face. I always wear eye protection when working up loads but not always in the field. I know that omission on my part is generally frowned upon.

I had a similar experience about 15 years ago when, following the oft-advised practice of using a magnum primer for spherical powder, I substituted a CCI 250 primer for whatever the manual called for in my .257 load. Never got to the book max, as a primer fell out a couple grains under that. No indication whatever that anything was wrong until I opened the FN bolt and saw the case. No more such silliness for me.

Are the WLR primer leaks happening only with 55-60K PSI cartridges? Are they happening in like 30-30 pressure rounds also?

Update:

My shipping container arrived yesterday. I packed my primers up and called Linda at Winchester. She is arranging for pickup by a local express company.

So far, I think they're handling this very well. Hat's off to whoever decided to take the high road on this and not weasel out. All this can't be cheap.

Add these to the list:

DEL 688G
HFL 590G
HEL 374G

It just occurred to me that Winchester could save a lot of money by just taking the primers sent back by one person and sending them out as replacements to another. That's how the Gummint would do it.

Pappy - now don't go putting thoughts like that in our heads!!!

Shipping containers arrived today - too late to get back with Linda to arrange a pick-up.

Sent back approximately 600 two weeks ago and had a $50 check in the mail today. Still undecided whether 100% satisfied.

Sorry, it's my naturally sunny disposition.

Has anyone actually gotten replacement primers from Winchester or are they just sending money?

I wish I would have received primers to my door. I have over the $50 dollars in 600 primers considering I now have to drive another 45 miles to purchase replacements. Very glad I didn't order them through the mail and have a haz mat fee tied up too.

I guess you're including gas and/or your time in that price. Priners here are $3.50 to $5.00 per C, except at the shops that have been gouging during the scare. Takes me about 30 minutes to get to my primary LGS.

Always the risk of seeing something else to buy, of course.

I haven't had any failures but I have several thousand WLR, WLRM primers on hand, mostly purchased between 2008 and 2013. Is winchester replacing primers for folks who have stocks of "bad" lot#'s and no issues, or do I need an issue to call Sharon.

10gaugemag is the only one so far that's gotten anything back (so far as I know), and he got money, not primers. Makes sense in that they only pay for hazmat one way. I'd be okay either way, but if I use the money to replace my primers, I won't buy Winchesters at this time for fear of getting more bad ones still in the supply chain. If they send me primers, I'll use them until something pops. Can't believe they'd send out more problematic ones.

I have different rifles now for the cartridges I used the Winnies in, so will be working up new loads anyway.

Its really not the replacing primers or their cost, I just made a mock order on midway and I could replace everything except the WLRM for around $275 in one order with CCI's. Its not exactly small change, but I could do it. Its more that WLR's have been my standard primer for 15 years and I have maybe 20 rifles with at least a load each, some with 2 or 3, that would need to switch primers in and refire to confirm. What a PITA.

I had no verified evidence of leaks, but called anyway knowing mine were bought at the approximate time frame of others. She wanted mine back because it was within "a month or so" of a known bad lot. I anticipate receiving the packaging today or early next week. I was told she'd send a check.

I've read the posts here and checked my supply - most of my Winchesters are white box (nickle plated) WLR's and WLRM's, only have 170 blue package PGL067G - going to go check the bolt faces, but I don't remember any problems when shooting reloads built with them. However, I do have 4600 blue box (brass) WLP's to worry about from what I could find on other shooting forums. Guess I need to give Winchester a call - glad I decided to read this thread.

guess I'll call Sharon with the lot #'s I have on hand, Thanks!

I am sending them 2 bricks of LR and 1 brick of LRM. They were most likely bought a year or more apart. Some as resent as 3 weeks.

I just got off the phone with the freight company making the pickup. So far, so good.

I called Winchester this morning, they called back within 3 hours.

I have 5,000 primers I will be sending back to them.

They offered to pay me $50.00 a thousand.

Very nice people/Kristen to work with.

I also have 3 bolts with pitting. Three 700 Rem bolts, two of them being Ti.

Winchester seems very willing to make things right.

I also spoke with Sharon and Kristen and will be sending back a couple of bricks of WLR and WLRM primers.

I asked about buying new primers and Kristen indicated that they knew what had happened and the new production primers should be without issue. Those lots that start with K and L should be good. So if there are folks like me that have quite a few loads with Win primers they don't wish to convert, there are some lots that should be safe.

Wonder if they would make things right by paying almost $70 per K if a person would have had to purchase through mail order and pay base shipping + Haz Mat fees?

The key words here are, "Should be without issue". Are they or not? Not a chance I am willing to take.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

I've got about 5K - mostly WLR's boxed up ready to go. Linda was out of the office yesterday so it will wait until Monday to arrange the pick up. Going to take the replacement primers - like a many others here I have several loads already done with WLR's and will give the replacements a try. Don't blame anybody for taking the check instead - probably the most prudent approach.

I found about this here on 24HCF and didn't even realize I had two rifles with pitting on the bolt - one for sure from the WLR's and the other one most likely. Neither are bad and I declined Winchester's offer to pay for the repair. One phone call to Sharon got the process started and I will give them a chance to come thru with the replacements. I sent them one case with a fired suspect primer at their request along with the lot number on the box it came from. Hopefully that adds to their body of knowledge

This is certainly not a "good" thing, but in my mind they are handling it well. If you have WLR or WLRM's, I would call Sharon and giver her the lot numbers.

Never was given the option of replacements was told a check would be coming. Had I been sent replacements I would have probably sold them and replaced with CCI or Federal.

Yes they could tell us handloaders to shove it as we are taking a risk loading our own ammo and not do anything at all but in my ming they are not going any too far out of their way to make things right, just breaking even.

I'll be satisfied with a check. Sounds like they're paying more than I've got invested, and I bought local, so didn't pay shipping or hazmat. I'll probably buy CCI BR, as my LGS has them in stock. I didn't suffer any damage; that would have been a different story.

They may have effectively lost me as a primer customer because if I pick up a couple thousand CCIs, those, combined with what I have in other brands, may be all the LR primers I'll ever need.

Winchester Lot# YKL270G are bad too, they pitted my rifle

The eagle has landed. My check was in the mailbox this evening.

Case closed.



Since there are two threads on this, I updated both.

I recd mine last week.

I talked to Sharon yesterday. They are replacing my WLRM 2 to 1, my WLR 3 to 1.

I can't complain.




P

Good news - something's happening. I need to call Sharon and check on mine. Heck of a deal Pharmseller got!!!

I find that interesting. I asked about replacement and they told me they were not set up to sell to individuals. They did include about money for shipping and hazmat so it was likely close to 2:1 cash for me. I'm not complaining but would have preferred a swap over driving 200 miles round trip to buy more.

I just got off the phone with Kristen. They are having me send back 1000 from lot FDL104G and 1000 from lot EKL072G. She said that when looking for replacements, to go with lots that start with K or L. She was very pleasant and helpful.

I had to fax a copy of my driver's license to prove I was old enough to receive a shipment of primers.





P

They sent me $100 for the 1800 LRs I returned. They were purchased locally during the crunch so shipping wasn't an issue. I'm well satisfied as I probably had no more than $60 or $70 invested, plus my time.

I'm even happier that, with the exception of Fed 210Ms, I'm once again able to find what I want. Fed match primers of any size remain elusive, but the 210Ms are Unobtanium.

Sportsmans near me had 2 1k bricks of 210M a couple of weeks ago.

I bought one and left the other. I didn't want to be "that guy."





P

I wouldn't begrudge you if you were "that guy". Like as not, the other one got picked up by someone that was just looking for "primers" in general.

A couple of LGSs were selling primers for about six bucks a pack during the worst of the crunch; not match primers, but just ordinary LRs and such. One of them also was offering CCI Blazers for the special bargain price of $9.95! Such a deal. My son hits a lot of shops around Northern VA pretty regularly, just looking. He'll find some eventually. The five packs I've got now came from him.

Seems to me if I remember correctly, Tula primers are Russian, are they not? That would probably explain why they could be hard to get these days.US trade sanctions due to the Ukraine issue likely would be the reason.

I have 4 stacks of primer bricks with a price tag from the lgs of $8.99...

If I could get $50 per brick???

Edit;

Things aren't so bad now, really.

But things were so much easier when a brick of primers was less than a pound of powder. And buying powder didn't take your breath away.

When we could buy a thousand mini mags for ~$30...

Got one pack of old CCI marked $1.00.

When purchased, I was probably making $150 a week!

Locally, primers run about $30 to $50 a brick, with the CCI BRs at the top. Once I figure out what all the newer stuff I have likes, I may do a big web order that will smooth out the hazmat fee. Like to buy local when I can, but few dealers have much of a selection, especially of projectiles. Hard to beat those blem prices too!

I used to use BR2's a lot, but a while back when the price difference from 200's went from modest to substantial they were dedicated to special purposes.

It only hurts for a little while.

W120s were my standard for .270 and briefly, the .243. F210M were for .308 loads. I never got into my supply of the new W120s, and picked up a bunch of regular 210s and now a brick of BR2s. BR2s and R15 have so far been the stars for my current .308, so I'll probably stick with them. Unlike the 210Ms, they can usually be had, at a price.

Gotta wonder if the generally better availability of CCIs is related to the fact that they are less of a presence in the CF ammo market. I've read that the primers we get from the Big 3 are the leftovers from ammo production and given the situation in that market, they have fewer leftovers to sell as components.

Check arrived in the mail for $100 for my 2,000 primers. I have been very satisfied with how this has been handled all the way along.

The brown truck showed up yesterday with 5,000 each WLR and WLRM.

No complaints.




P

I still have multiple packs around or did last I looked of primers at a buck or under... I"m getting old...

That's the goal.



P

Lot# BKL344G bit me this morning. Etched the bolt face on a 308 with a moderate load of IMR4895. I don't think that pressure was an issue as I was running them over a chrono at the time and under 2700fps with a 150gr bullet. I had already fired 500 from this brick with no problems so this was an unpleasant surprise. I have about 10k more WLRs in Lots from B, E, G and Y so I guess I'll be making the call. WLRs had been my go to primer for years and never a hiccup.