Opinions seem to be all over the place. There are those that will Stoke a 240 Weatherby to max velocity while on the other hand another hunter will be loading down there 243 a tad because it is destroying to much meat.

Myself, I tend to hand load my ammo on the softer side and while I'm not implying that I think it kills with more authority It seems to work well for me.

What been working for you?



Trystan

What some would consider ridiculously light loads have been my mainstay for decades. Machoistic (masochistic?) ideals run deep in the American gunner's psyche.

It is your barrel and your bloodshot meat. Personally, I am getting over the velocity craze. I like to keep loads fairly close to the caliber's potential, but I don't have to be maxed out, either.

My loads are usually at least .5-1 grain below max charge.

Much depends on the country I am hunting.. Woods and eastern stuff.. High velocity is not imp. But in the west or open country, the less hold over I have to deal with the better. Or a situation, where getting the exact range is impossible.. Happens pretty often in hunting big game..

Depends on the use.

I pick and choose as needed. Velocity and BC help with wind drift issues. Drop is now taken care of by rangefinders.

Meat damage is always more the higher the MV IMHO, which is why for fast rounds I run Barnes without a doubt.

I never try to get the most out of any round anymore. If I feel the need for more speed I'll grab a larger round.

Speed wise vs kills. As a whole the faster the impact the less they run, but I"ve seen fast rounds and deer still run a long ways. I"ve seen very slow rounds and they not make 20-30 steps.

I think both have uses. In fact if hunting out ofa blind I often carry my 300/221 suppressed, and either a 308 which I"m comfortable with to about 700 yards, or a 257 wtby which I"m easily comfortable with to 400 yards, just have not had the chance to push it further on paper enough to be confident.

In the end these days if I have to just grab something and go and its not a trophy type hunt, I'll grab my 308 every time running 185 bergers.

If its trophy I'll grab my 300 wtby running 180ttsx.

OTOH the very last deer I shot last year was with a civil war musket turned 19 ga smoothbore, running a patched round ball with either 50 or 60 grains of Du Point 2F. Deer ran maybe 50 yards.

I try to get sufficient velocity for a flat trajectory over the ranges I expect to shoot and to ensure expansion and hopefully enough penetration for two holes, while producing good enough accuracy for precision shot placement. With all the bullets we have to choose from, all that can be accomplished without too much trouble, especially in the calibers from 6.5 up. I generally keep my .270 and .30 cal loads solidly in the middle range and have gotten excellent results so far, and hopefully am taking it easy on my barrels. Because of its smaller diameter and lighter bullets, I push my .243 a bit harder.

If you look back a bit, the original loads for the .30/06, 7x57, and the various other rounds that originated 100 years or so ago did very well, even with the simple bullets available, at 2200-2700 fps. No reason why we can't do the same now.

Obviously, those who shoot way out there need all the speed they can get to achieve the same results.

I shoot a lot and I hunt so i like cartridges that are mild both in recoil and powder usage...however i also like versatility.

I tend to like cartridges in the 25-2900 fps range...7/08, 7x57, 308 etc. They shoot plenty flat for 300+hunting and are plenty of medicine for anything in America and non dangerous game abroad. I shoot steel with them up to 600m as well

With the advances in good and affordable rangefinders my need for super fast cartridges has evaporated.

Bullets are so damn good anymore...it just doesn't matter like it once did

A 525gr Postell out of a .45-70 BPCR @ 1,200 fps will reach "way out there" and get the job done, too.

A man's just gotta know his limitations.

Ed

While the speed component of velocity can vary a great deal and the round still be effective, the margin for error on the directional component is very small.

You need to know the drops for range whatever speed combined with bc that you end up shooting. I've ended up with mid range loads that are accurate and dependable, so I just go with it.

I ran after speed, feeding a 257 Roberts H100V under a 115 bt. After shooting almost a full pound of that powder along side the load I normally use, 43.5 RL19/115BT, I found the RL19 to be so much more consistent, that I stuck with the original slower load.

Even my 25-20 eats mid range mild loads.

I strive for accuracy. If I want speed, I get cartridges that are known for such and let them do what they're capable of.

If it's not present the bullet fails to exit the barrel.

Yep ! Still are.


Jerry

I hate it when that happens!

I like comfortable loads that group well, matching velocity with the design performance window of a specific bullet.

I like to move mono's fast, more expansive bullets at more moderate speeds.

I don't like to hot rod. For more speed, I step up to a bigger round.

So, IMO, velocity is very important for optimal accuracy and terminal performance.

DF

If you were shooting a cartridge whereby the bullet took five minutes to get to 200 yards......speed would be very important!!

Bottom line right there.

Of course velocity is important. Without it there's no point in having rifles.



Decent accuracy is not the sole purview of pedestrian velocity. You can have some speed and accuracy, too.....even from light sporter rifles.


7mm Mashburn Super;162 Amax at 3200 fps,a couple of hours ago.

Just like superman it needs to be faster than a speeding locomotive.

And the bullet. Totally different answers for a monometal vs. a typical long-range spitzer with a thin jacket.

I tend to load heavy for caliber bullets at whatever charge gives me the best accuracy within 100 fps or so of max. In most of my hunting calibers, that gets me in the 2700-2900 fps range.

So for the .25-06 Rem I use 115 or 120 grain bullets, .270 Win gets the 150 grainers, the 7mm Rem Mag 175s, the .30-'06 180s, etc...

I'm not a fan of big game hunting with light for caliber bullets screaming out of a barrel at 3,100+ fps.

Now varmints, that's a different story.....

No doubt. Just have to watch out for low flying aircraft that might deflect your bullet.😜

All depends on how far you are shooting.

Bullet design/construction is a significant factor in limiting undesirable meat destruction. The correct soft from
a scorching .240 can result in less meat damage than a .243win pushing a less appropriate soft.



As long as a person uses a bullet than can cope with the higher velocity I dont see the harm in having
more velocity than a person needs. At the other end of the spectrum, with the ranges most people hunt at,
they also dont have to worry about having too little velocity on impact, even if only using moderate loads.

Uhhmmm, the bullet will deflect the low-flying aircraft...

I load all my guns to their potential.

If my guns want to live up to their potential, I'm gonna have to sell 'em to somebody else.

Beat me to it...

Ed

Yes, and why not? !
I really have quit hot rodding but I don't find anything to gain by 'UNDER loading'.

BTW,,,,,,,, + P doesn't mean over potential.


Jerry

This.

I'm in the same camp as you Smokepole! Somehow meat always ends up on the dinner table.

Well like most things alittle velocity is good but you can have too much. I reload fairly conservatively. I use std C&C bullets and several years ago I read an article by some some guy in a gun rag about how velocities of around 2700 fps was the pocket for most bullets performance and providing a flat trajectory over practical hunting ranges. I agree with you MD and my experiences have backed you up. As to accuracy I see on print how the greatest accuracy seems to occur at top velocities but this seems to have changed over the years as in the past it was touted that loads softer than max were often the most accurate. I have also found that milder loads is much more gentle on your brass requiring less trimming and more reloads per case. But what do I know I recently started a thread about how lead round balls at about 1700-1800 fps provided more DRT kills for me % wise than any other bullet for me.

Th general trend of sporting cartridges since the 30-30 has been increased velocity.

Velocity flattens trajectory, reduces wind drift, and with the same twist it imparts more rotational velocity. Flat trajectory is good because I don't have to worry my head about distance until animals are 300-350 yards away.I can mess with turrets and dots after that.


High velocity and rotational velocity helps bullet expansion and makes bullets more effective at distance because it helps them expand after velocity has fallen off at distance.(Assuming the bullet is built for the chore).

I notice that many people automatically equate "velocity" with loading their pet cartridge too hot to get the velocity and therefore consider velocity as somehow "bad". This is backwards thinking. Cartridges do what they do loaded to 60-65,000 psi.If one doesn't give the velocity you want then buy a case with more capacity. Trying to squeeze another 50-75 fps from your pet cartridge is silly.

It's funny watching people tap dancing around and trying to act morally superior somehow as they treat velocity like it's a venereal disease.

I like stuff doing 3000-3200 fps for most BG cartridges and bullets. If velocity is getting much over those numbers I start looking for heavier bullets instead.

I would gladly take as much velocity as I could get if it didn't mean burning too much powder and getting kicked "too hard". Otherwise I've never seen velocity do anything "bad" unless someone mismatched the bullet to the velocity of the cartridge.

Rifles that shoot better at sub par velocities are a rifle problem; not a velocity problem.

If we think velocity is a problem, try shooting a few 500 yard bull elk with a 30-30 instead of a 300 magnum. Tell me which one works better.

I'm primarily an Eastern Whitetail hunter. I have never shot a deer beyond 175 yards. I've shot more deer inside 50 yards than outside 100. I'm also a good Methodist boy with strong Taoist leanings. Somebody says it's velocity that kills, some say mass, some say SD kills, others say BC. There's probably a vote for the color of the tip there somewhere.

I say there is a factor yet unexplored, and it is the same factor that leads so many Western minds to think Taoism is unreachable. Please bear with me for a bit. This gets deep, but I promise to drag y'all back to the shallow end before I'm done.

Taoism is all about getting with the flow. Taoism is not a religion in the sense that it does not conflict with Christianity. It's more of a worldview. You can be a Taoist Christian in the same way as you can drive either a Chevy or Ford truck to church. Okay, I know some of y'all are going to say that's a tremendous difference and the Dodge and Toyota boys are going to Hell, but that's beside the point. Even you get the idea.

To the Taoist, there are a myriad of forces at work in everyday life. The Taoist looks for harmony in those forces and seeks to ride on the balancing point. Here is the story of the Butcher as an example:

The Dexterous Butcher

OK, Shaman, old buddy, you're really off the cliff today. Call the doctor, have him change the dosage.

Look, there's only so much animal there. With a 270 lb live weight buck, there's about 15 inches of deer I need to penetrate on a broadside shot. Maybe 18 inches if the beast is slightly off-broadside. Everything beyond that is extraneous. Furthermore, there is only so much a bullet will take before it fails and only so little before it stops expanding.

I have shot deer with everything from a 25-06 to a 12 GA slug. The thing that seems to kill deer the best is not velocity. In fact gunwriters do not even have a word to describe it. "Balance" does not cover it. "Flowiness" is not even a word. However, it is a mastery and harmonization of the forces in play that brings a nice fat buck into a toes-up configuration.

Think about it. We all talk about maximizing this or that, but what does excess buy us? More dirt flying up on the far side of the animal. A flinch that won't go away? We as Westerners can grasp accuracy, speed, and trajectory, but we stop abruptly before going any further. Part of the reason we have these threads is that we all glimpse what's on the other side of the intellectual chasm, but we just cannot describe it.

I've been sitting in the same luxury shooting box called Midway for 7 seasons-- good name for a Taoist deer blind. I go there for a few reasons. Midway is out of the rain and wind. It affords me a good view of a 1/4 acre spot in the middle of a pasture I call "The Garden of Stone." When I started hunting there about a decade ago, I'd put a small stone under each carcass before picking it up. Pretty soon, I had a whole mess of stones in that patch. I usually go there to fill my last tag for the freezer. This is well after I've done all the Man-vs-Elements thing I can handle for the year, and just want it to be over.

I've shot deer from Midway with a good part of my whole deer arsenal. This is about as controlled a situation as you'll find. I can usually wait for a broadside shot, and I like to aim such that I take out both lungs and the top of the heart. The goal here is to drop the deer as close as possible to the center of the Garden of Stone, so I can get the truck in for a quick and easy extraction. If it goes right, I can be to the processor and back and sipping scotch in the moonlight in 2 hours. The processor is a half-hour away. I give myself extra points if the deer drops touching a stone placed from a previous season. This is how a Taoist goes deer hunting.

On the small end, the 25-06 with a 117 grain bullet hits the deer at 150 yards at 2500 fps, give or take. The deer runs a bit, and piles up. .25 cal onside hole. Thumb-sized far-side hole. The last doe made it to the fence and got over before succumbing. That added about 20 minutes to the total process.

On the far end, my Remington 7600 Whelenizer spits out a 200 Grain Rem SPCL that hits the deer at 1700-1800 fps at 150 yards. The deer runs a bit, and goes down. There's a .35 cal hole going in and a 2-inch hole going out. The last doe I Whelenized made it to the fence and got downhill about 20 yards. It added about 30 minutes to getting her out and I had to follow a weak blood trail in drizzle, so that was another 10 minutes of tracking. No Taoist bonus points there, but plenty of nice venison in the end.

Now, let us turn to the Voice of the Tao, the .30 Briar, the 7.62X63 Light Magnum, my Ruger Hawkeye in 30-06. It runs a 165 grain Hornady SPBT. At 150 yards, it hits the deer at 2400 fps, give or take. In the last minute of legal hunting last year, I took a shot at a nice fat doe. The shot blinded me for a bit. When I looked back, it was too dark to see. I did not even bother to confirm the kill before getting on the walkie-talkie and calling for the deer wagon. She was toes-up in her tracks at 155 yards with a bloody rock already under the carcass. The holes going in and out were optimal. That palpable feeling of whatever-it-is was there. Balance? Harmony? I could feel it before I pulled the trigger.

Speed kills, baby...

Velocity is accuracy.

I have found, for the most part, that my most accurate loads are usually the loads that are close to, or at max. At any rate, since I am never going to shoot a rifle enough to burn the barrel out, I usually choose to reload cartridges that will go as fast as they can without being on the hot side. I won't give up accuracy for speed, but if I can have both, why not. I figure that's a no brainer.

Bob, somehow it seems that ^^this^^ has been forgotten.
Why doesn't everybody just use a 44/40 ?



Bob, I think people are not listening or they just hear what they WANT to hear.



You know, it seems that I read/learned that @ 40 yrs. ago. I guess some just aren't old enuff.



Yes, I read/hear that condescending attitude. I guess it makes some feel better.

(per VD)



Agreed, I find that envelope a very good compromise with trajectory and recoil.



OR when people put the bullet in the WRONG place. If you hunt long enuff it will happen.



!!!!!!!!!! I've seldom read that !!!!!!!! I agree....

OR the handloader hasn't used the right components.



To which the response cliche' is....

"learn how to hunt" meaning get closer.

I know from yrs. of WT hunting that there are occasions when you don't have time to get closer OR it is impossible.

If you haven't figured it out..... Great post Bob.


Jerry

Rarely have I found 'better' accuracy slower than near max.

That's with cartridges from 243/6mm->->->338WM.

Jerry

In that thread you said that was a sample of 7-8 deer.

Many of us responded that we did NOT share that experience. I've trailed many (more than 7-8) WT shot w/mzldr for myself and friends. IMO, you've been very lucky.

Jerry

I quit handloading so I take what they give me. And I'm able to get to bed before 1:00AM....

I hunt what I call 30/30 ranges...

this season so far, I've been carrying an ADL in 243, loaded with a 90 grain Speer SP, and moved along by 33 grains of AR Comp....

Zeroed 2 inches high at 100 yds, is giving a dead on at 200 yd result...easily a 250 yd load...

what more do I need?

6mm-284: 95 gr bt @ 3300 fps mv
264 Win mag: 130 ab @ 3300 fps mv
7MM STW: 160 ab @ 3200 fps

There might be a theme to my collection of game rifles.

It is important to remember that the 160 gr accubond which left the muzzle at 3200 fps is only doing 2600 fps when it connects to that bull elk at 400-450 yds. 2600 fps is a desirable impact velocity for any bullet.

I'll take all the mv I can get without destroying my shoulder.

Most of mine run about the same. I agree, I'll take all of the speed I can get, using good bullets I haven't found any detriment to it.

Let the horse run, as long as it's accurate at given velocity.

Bob,nice group with the Mashburn.

If you used a $20 bill the group may have been a bit smaller.

Elkhuntr: I keep missing the dollar bill.....

I would too at that distance.

For hunting, I just need enough velocity to cause the bullet to expand at impact, and completely penetrate the animal (an exit wound helps tracking in thick stuff). I hunt what most would consider short range, and I've never killed a deer at over 110 yards, so anything in the .30-30 class is OK for me. That said, I've killed deer with 130 gr. .270 bullet at 3000 fps impact velocity, and it was messy. I've killed deer with a 270 gr. .44 bullet at 1300, and it was much cleaner. This year, the nod goes to the Hornady 117gr. RN in a .250-3000 at 2550, and I think it will do very well. The second deer I shoot will likely fall to a 220gr. .38-55 at 1650. It should also do very well. If I hunted at longer ranges, velocity would be of more importance to me, but at bayonet range, not so much.

Old70

I think that's right, up to a point but it seems like that trend is changing. To re-state the obvious, with scopes that reliably adjust for distance, flat trajectory isn't as important as it once was. Lot's of guys are throttling back and shooting milder cartridges, especially those that shoot high volume.

The popularity of the Creedmor is a good indicator.

Yes....that's all true. Mostly among more ardent shooters who shoot match, tactical etc,......but the list of "most popular"cartridges remains pretty much the same year to year.

In any event the Creed is still a "fast" cartridge by about any standard and shoots high BC bullets to hand on to as much speed as possible. So even in that realm of velocity people think speed is important.

I think it will be awhile before the Creedmoor catches up to the 7 RM in BG hunting popularity.

I am one who maintains that flat trajectory is still very useful in BG hunting despite the new technology;LRF's don't always give a reading and BG animals have the bad habit of not being as cooperative at standing around as fixed targets and gongs. I will still take that 3000-3200 fps whenever i can get it.

That Mashburn-162/160 load above gets to 600 yards "on the windshield" of a 6x36 and that's never a bad thing in open country.

Mornin Smokey -

I can only speak for myself buy I'll take a 400 yd MPBR advantage THEN add adjusting scopes/dots etc.

For many yrs now +/- 400 yds is about my maximum hunting distance available. Some say 400 yds is not long range and for some that's true.

The % of hunters actually hunting and shooting past 500 yds is very small. We read HERE all the time that the majority of game is shot LESS than 200 yds. Even in this thread some have said they hunt what they call 30/30 ranges. So...

This is my personal position, I don't hunt/shoot any cartridge that's NOT CLOSE to 3000 fps. It has taken me over a year to kick the 6.5X55 in the BUTT to get to 3000 fps.

So many times in WT hunting in the Southern Piney woods there is NOT ENUFF time for binos--ranging--cranking knobs--aiming. You'd best be ready to judge antlers, aim AND shoot. We have an antler POINT restriction of 3 points on a side.

Even tho we ALL hunt, we don't all hunt in the same circumstances. We all choose what works best for us OR simply what we like.

Jerry

Good article by JB on this a few years back in "Handloader" or "Rifle" that I believe Bangeye referred to a few posts back, "The Perfect Velocity". As I recall JB didn't say it's the only velocity for all shooting situations but 2700fps with the right bullet will take care of most "Big Game" hunting situations.

IMO knowing the trajectory of the load you're shooting and the limits of how far you can shoot it accurately in all situations is more important than any other factor. Our military snipers have made some very long shots and kills with a 308 at around 2600fps. ymmv.

For most of my hunting purposes a bullet leaving the muzzle at around 2700 fps gets me there



Trystan

Lots of deer killed by projectiles only going about 80 ft/sec. Not much expansion or penetration required.




Wrecks a lot of meat though. I don't recommend it.

Jerry

How many bench rest rifles are super fast cartridges?

More velocity = more recoil. There are trade offs for just about everything and I haven't found >2700ish to be any limitation for the hunt I do.

Yes thats the article. I believe that he also included a demonstration of the amount of drop at some distance between a 308 and a 300 mag. of some sort and it wasn't quite as severe as one might expect. Im not advocating using a 30-30 for 500 yd shots on elk but I do find that bullets in the 2700-2800 realm usually allow me to sight in for a point blank range of 300 yds on a deer sized target. I generally sight in about 2.5" high and if I loan my rifle to someone and they startup about where to hold at long range I usually say well if he looks really, really far off you can aim higher on the shoulder but you better shoot at hair. It been my experience that we don't see many deer at 300+ yds and most folks I have run across, will swear that a deer at 200 is 350 yds.

Afternoon Jerry. I say, to each his own. I'm not saying faster or slower is better, just commenting on general trends in response to Bob's post. Personally, I like both but tend to shoot the milder cartridges more.

What are you shooting to get a 400 yard MPBR at sea level?

Smokey - I don't know about sea level, I've never hunted at sea level. <grin>

I learned back in the 80s from 'Gun Writers/Hunters' with a muzzle velocity of 3100 or so 3" hi at 100 puts you @ 4" hi at 200 then more/less on at 300 yds.

With that system at 400 yds you DON'T hold over the back line. On WT an ADULT will be 16"-18" deep SO up to 400 yds you're no more than 4" hi mid-range and at 400 hold on the TOP of the BACK the drop will still be a kill shot.

The exact trajectory figures will vary a little depending on specific velocity and BC of specific bullets. I've been using this system so long that it's second nature to me.

Obviously the higher the velocity the FLATTER the trajectory.

I remember John Wooters, J R S, et.al. using and recommending this procedure. That was before the popularity of turrets & knobs or dots. And the only 6.5 cartridge mentioned was 264 WM and it was viewed as a barrel burner.

Jerry

I learned the same from Bob Hagel and still run my guns that way from the 35 Whelen to the 7mm Mashburn...

Finally some backup.

Dang, I have been flamed more times than I can count for recomending a 300 yd or possibly longer zero.

I learned from my Dad fifty years ago to use a 300 yd zero with the '06. Granted, especially with factory fodder, the midrange trajectory is a little steep. But ground squirrels at 175 yds to 250 yds will quickly train one to properly hold under.

The midrange trajecty is not quite so problematic in the 30-06 with a good 165 boat tail handloaded to 65,000 psi using a slow burn rate powder.

When hunting with the rounds mentioned in my earlier post, I sight in at 350 yds or 325 yds with the STW.

I hear you buddy. With the Mashburn sighted in 3" high with a (160 AB at 3200) at 100 it makes 0-400 yards really easy.

Snipers also have a proportion of what civilians commonly refer to as 'un-confirmed' kills ..Even the military criteria for establishing
what civilians call 'confirmed' kills (for snipers) varies and can be different to the way civilian hunters confirm a kill on game.

WELL...Praise The Lord and Pass the Jar ! ! !

For the past few years I've explained this 300 yd zero over and over. It seemed as tho NO ONE except Bobin NH ever heard of it.

I'm SO GLAD to know some know about it.

Idaho Shooter - This year I'll be hunting an 06 with 165 BTSP at 2900 + myself---sighted 3" hi at 100 yd.

It sure feels good to have some company. I really thot this was a LOST system.

Jerry

My last two bulls were both killed right at 400 yds per LRF with a high rib hold using the STW and the 162 Hornady btsp. No messing with dials, no clutter in the windshield.

Does a hunting rifle scope really need to resmble the HUD from an F/A 18 Super Hornet?

Absolutely not. The only reason I like/use 4-12X40s is, Ark. has a 3 pt on 1 side antler law.

REGARDLESS of how large the body OR antlers, there MUST be 3 pts on 1 side of an antler to be legal.

I killed a 6 pt buck, 175-178 lbs., with 17 1/2" inside spread. I had to study the rack for some time to see A 3rd point.

Otherwise a simple 6 X and maybe with dots would be all that's necessary.


Jerry

I hunt in South GA. 95% of my shots are under 200 yards.

I choose a good bullet...start at the medium powder charge...then increment charge up to the best accuracy...at which point I stop.

I am fortunant to see enough deer during the season that I can wait on a good angle. We can leagally kill 10 deer in Ga. There is no need to be in a hurry and that makes it easy to pass questionable shots.

A good pair of binos would be a better solution to that problem.

I always bought cheap binos in the past...and never used them. Picked up a pair on Minox during a closeout several years ago. Some of the best money I've spent in optics!! They stay in my truck during hunting season. Won't leave home without them.

300 yard zero is not unusual in Wyoming. I typically use 250 yards on guns without dials.

beretzs -

I had forgotten about Bob Hagel. I have his book and the 300 yd zero is charted for multiple cartridges IIRC.

Thnx for reminding me.


Jerry

A. Sniper -

I would think that longer sight in range would be very useful in the Western States. Glad to know it's not lost.


Jerry

Maybe they don't need such scopes , just like you don't really need a hyper vel. STW for 400yd shots.
Ive achieved +/- 400yd DRTs with much slower muz. velocities and steeper trajectories (250yd zero)
and no messing with the Leup. scope dials.

No problem... as a kid I devoured anything written by him. Like a few others most of what he says still applies to big game hunting. Between him and BobinNH I've reverted to the 7 Mashburn and Bitterroots and couldn't be happier.

Zeroed at 300 yards as well..

Back when I was guiding in the 1980's, when backing up mule deer and pronghorn hunters I carried a .257 Roberts with 100-grain Partitions handloaded to about 3250 fps, with the rifle sighted-in at 300 yards. (This was sort of a Bob Hagel-level load, but not excessive in the rifle's 24" barrel.) Along with using the scope's duplex reticle as a rangefinder and longer-range aiming point, this made finishing off wounded animals much easier back before lasers and "turrets" appeared on the market.

Oh, and when sighted-in at 300, the point-of-impact at 100 yards was just about exactly three inches high.

Jerry, to clarify, holding at the top of the animal's back at 400 may be a good system, but holding over where you want the bullet to hit is not what most people call MPRB. That was the reason for my question--not an explanation of the trajectory, just clarification on the 400-yard MPRB.

As Stick likes to say, it's not tough to 'cipher those who shoot from the ones that don't.

North of 3000 can be awful handy at times.

And yet, while MV helps with wind, generally folks that talk what I call mid range shots, are alwyas worried about drop, which can be covered, but never mention wind, which affects things certainly starting at 300 and beyond....

Drop has never been a concern of mine. Wind has always been a concern that needs to be worked with to be understood.

Which has lead me to saying most folks have no business past 200 yards, if that.

I regularly can shoot out to 600ish yards on deer where we hunt. Open country on the one side. The wind is a much larger worry...I can hit them with a rangefinder plus I know how far each ridge, clump of trees is etc....

i absolutely suck at range estimation...

i have a 257 and 270 weatherby , both zero'd at 300yds.

the velocity gives me a pretty sweet fat margin of error

edit: the wind on the other hand! but im a better estimator of wind drift

I and others consider it MPBR per your target ie deer.


Jerry

Jeff I have played with wind here and out west enough to be cognizant of it;even in fun shooting out there at rocks and coyotes and watched the wind just blow bullets completely off track.

So yes, I pay a lot of attention to it and have passed shots and even backed off a stalk because the wind was too bad to risk and shot.

Like you say, I can control drop via knowing trajectory but wind is tougher...and IME much worse at full value. I passed a shot at the biggest bull elk Ive ever seen with a tag in my pocket because there was no escaping a full value wind that was leaning ponderosa pines way over and I could not be sure of the effect at close to 600 yards.

Don't talk about it because my inclination is to pass the shot if i think it's bad. I can control and manipulate trajectory in advance but I never know what the wind is going to be come time to shoot.

I have used a 3" high @ 100yds MPBR for my 7mags since 1980. It is very effective to say the least.

Since this thread involves some sort of logic and real world shooting by, apparent, hunters and shooters, my little buddy would say everyone who has posted in this thread has female genitals, sits on the couch, imagines and pretends everything they wrote herein because nobody is talking about 1000K plus yards, blah, blah, blah. In his world, none of what has been articulated herein even matters. I hope he is well.

Stick has the Milford; many of us don't.

I've always heard that called "holding on hair."

Absolutely !

It does NOT take a lot of practice shooting to SHOW its effectiveness. After I tried it a FEW Xs, I've never considered much of anything else.

That's why I like cartridges that yield 3100 fps and more. The faster----the flatter.

Just so I don't get called on the carpet>>> GOOD bullets are a must, Both in makeup & BC.


Jerry

Some people are legends in their own minds. If he's your buddy, you have my sympathy.


Jerry

When it comes to the homunculus from Alaska, the term "little buddy" is always used tongue in cheek, at least by me.

srrright !!

Jerry

If it is too slow, the bullet sometimes will not exit the barrel. That is important to know. Keep it in mind.

I've read through a lot of Sticks post and there is no doubt the man is educated concerning rifles. I remember Stick saying there is nothing one can't do with a
7mm-08 and a 162 amax leaving the muzzle at a pedestrian 2700 fps.

I'm thinking Stick would laugh in the face of MPBR endeavours when they only get one to the 400 yd line at best.

I personally think MPBR is rather useful and I sight nearly all my rifles to hold at top of back at 300 yds. For most bullets traveling 2700 or thereabouts it ends up being close to a 200 yd zero.



Trystan

I wasn't quoting Stick for his opinion on rifles and cartridges. I was quoting him for his quote.

I did, however, quote BobinNH for his opinion on rifles and cartridges, the point of which was to reinforce the position that if you haven't had animals hit cover before you had time to range them with a LRF, you haven't hunted much. Just as Bob said, even in the era of laser rangefinders, high velocity can be useful.

You may have missed where I say I personally think MPBR is useful IMO. I was agreeing with you and Bobin and others. My post wasn't intended to prove anyone wrong I was only making reference to the fact that no matter what anyone says Stick is going to counter with the do nothing gang stuff 😀


Trystan

Happens quite frequently where I'm hunting, and I wholeheartedly agree with BobinNH's 160gr/3000fps combo.

We're flopped prone here over a pack ,no bipod, no rear bag, at 300 yards.

7mm Mashburn. 2.5-3" high at 100.

Not in a real hurry for three shots but not screwing around either,about as fast as I could cycle and get back on target. It's a sneeze for that load and that's how I like it.





Same rifle, same load,same technique,except 500 yards with the second dot on a 6X Leopold. The help is there if it's needed past 300 yards and nothing wrong with that.

That's what I'm talkin' about.......

A 190gn long-range Accubond (BC .640) 2550mv has 10" of drift at 400yd.(10 mph x wind)
for a 180NP to display the same level of drift, it requires a whopping 3250mv.

Higher velocity is sometimes so overrated, nor is it always the best or only solution.

Absolutely yes, velocity is important.

Somewhere around 1950 I chose the model 155 RIFLE Daisy over the new Red Rider because it had a longer barrel, looked more like Dad's 300Sav, and was said to be FASTER.

From eight feet that thing could splat flies on the barn door and was fast enough to embed the BBs in the old Hemlock. I could open the leather punch on my Kamp King, dig them out, and shoot them over again. (early reloading) Two other boys had Red Riders and they, like 30-30s, just bounced off.

When I got my Winchester 32 Spl. I chose the model 64 over the 94 because of longer barrel. Velocity, you know. Never bounced off, never!

Don't dig em out with the Kamp King now but I do reload. Velocity!

S A L U T E'


That is impressive---- especially for 257 Roberts.

Jerry

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/10163944/6

.257R at 3,250 fps with a 100 TTSX and H100V works well.

DF

Velocity is almost as overrated as most people's ability to consistently dope wind.

Lets just say that at one time, I knew a fair bit about wind out to 1000 ish yards.

I have no problem saying that wind is underestimated and even totally ignored a lot of the time, while worrying about drop... heck if you shoot over or under, nothing is wounded... if you are on, but left or right you can really wound one and make a miserable day.

I'm like Bob... you never know what the wind is doing. My best shot has been 802. The reason it was taken and made, twice, is due to minimal wind and readable mirage. Plus a spotter I really trusted....

I"ve passed on 200 yard shots before.... wind blowing the position around and just could not get stable enough quickly enough....

BC matters more in longer shots to me than most anything, well that and a really accurate load plus lots of trigger time with that load in conditions and in zero conditions verifying no wind zero's at temps and so on.

Having a flat shooting load just does not come into play anymore for me really. I can handle that part of the equation pretty quickly and easily.

I'm not as concerned with a relatively high velocity in my 7-08's or 30-06 as I am with the 7mag.

Just for the record. Personally it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

I have very L O N G deer seasons and have had for years.... so

I don't and don't have to hunt in hi wind, problem solved.

I rarely have had any shooting opportunities past 400 yds but 400 is a common ' opportunity'.

I'm prepared for those w/o turrets, knobs, or dots. I'm not knocking those, I just don't need them -- with velocity and flat trajectory.


Jerry

Let me illustrate. The following are the dates for THIS year's deer seasons where I live/hunt.

Mzl Oct 15- 23

Mod Gun Oct 29-Nov 2

M G Nov 12-Dec 18 and Dec 26-28

Mzl Dec 29-31


I can't hunt every day but I pick and choose when I hunt.


Jerry

I shot two antelope two weeks ago with 95 gr 6mm Nos Bal Tip with muzzle velocity 2800 fps.

Both were bang flop.

And that is pretty much my position as well. I have never had the luxery of hunting the number of days jwall speaks of. My hunting was always primarily to fill the freezer. We always shot the first legal game we encountered.

I also am one who has never hunted in appreciable wind. Over fifty years, if the weather was that bad, we just waited for a better day. And typically in this part of Idaho, there are very few days of crappy weather during our deer and elk seasons.

I carried an '06 loaded with 165 gr boat tails over 60 gr H4831 for over twenty years. When I got a chrony, I discovered the actual mv was 2620 fps.

The rifle was zeroed at an actual 300 yds by shooting at 300 yds. And i never had a bit of trouble hitting anything I aimed at inside 400 yds using an old Weaver 2-7x32 with a typical duplex reticle.

Today, I choose higher velocity cartridges such as the 264 Win mag or STW not because I think they are necessary for the hunting I do. But they make it easier, and give me more assurance of a lethal hit at the ranges I hunt.

Killing a 600 pound bull, and killing it quickly so it does not run a mile into some schitt hole before it dies is a far different matter than killing a 100 lb deer.

I have killed and watched others kill elk with loads like the 30-06 I previously mentioned. The elk die eventually, and are usually recovered. But I was never impressed with the situation.

That is specifically why I bought the Ruger #1 in 7mm STW. And I have been quite satisfied with the results on elk due to the difference in impact velocity.

For comparison, the aforementioned 30-06 load w/ 165 gr bullet is down to 1920 fps at 400 yds. While my chosen STW load with a 160 gr bullet impacts at over 2500 fps at the same range.

The difference in reaction of elk hit has been obvious to me. If I could handle the recoil and shoot it effectively, I would choose an 8mm mag with a 220, or a 340 Wea with a 250 gr bullet. But I can not.

There could be a reason why some are on ignore....

I. Shooter -

I could deer hunt tomorrow thru Wed. but we are running 60 - 85* F during this time. I will not go where I normally hunt.

IF IF I see deer early in the mornings AT Home, I may shoot 1. I don't like to hunt in hot WX either.

Yesterday I saw 2 shooter bucks in my pasture.
1 is a cull I want to remove. He has 1/2 rack on his right side. The left side is a TALL spike - 10-12", with a short spike, both straight up. He was 125 yds from my house S - SW.

The second is a very nice 8 pt, long, tall, decent width, and average mass.
He was 100 yds from my back door East. I had time to grab my LRF just to know. He licked a branch and pawed the ground while I watched.

If I knew I'd see both during season, I'd kill the cull first.

If I don't see a deer early, I won't shoot one at all this week.

Jerry

A. That is exactly my perspective as well. Hi Vel makes it easier And quicker to make the shot.

B. I have not YET had the privilege to hunt Elk but I haven't given up hope. I enter our Elk Permit draw every year----no luck yet---- but I'm prepared.

Having seen MANY deer killed with various cartridges--it's easy to understand that MORE tissue destruction YIELDS quicker death. (Proper placement is UTMOST)


For guys that only hunt woods/short range, velocity is less important. I actually hunt woods MOST of the time BUT even in the last 4 seasons I cross open land going in and coming out.

Last yr alone I killed 2 deer BEFORE I entered the woods. I believe in being prepared for MY situations.

YMMV

Y'all can blame JOC, Bob Hagel, JRS, et.al. for my penchant.


Jerry

Velocity is an interesting thing when it comes to bullets.Different shapes and construction are affected by this.One thing for certain is faster bullets are going to shoot flatter,carry more energy and just hit harder when it gets there.I once shot a doe with a 7mag using 145gr Speer Grand Slam bullet with a mv of 3200fps,behind both shoulders and it broke the onside front leg just from the sheer impact.The bullet never even touched the shoulder but it broke the front leg right at the scapula.Another thing I've noticed is the shock wave you can sometimes see in your scope when the bullet hits the animal.I've noticed this a few times.You can actually see an area as large as a basket ball sometimes,where the hair gets all distorted when the bullet hits the animal.Think of it like this,when you pass a truck on the highway,the wind shearing from the front of the truck with shake and push your vehicle.I'm sure you get the same thing with the bullet too.Does it have an affect when it hits an animal with that blast of air?I'm sure it does,but how much,I don't know.In the end,an animal hit in the vitals the same spot,with the same bullet will die,but the one with the higher velocity may very well put the animal down quicker unless too much of it's energy is lost with the bullet leaving the other side.Who knows.

I'm pretty sure that a bullet feels no emotion when it hits an animal.

I don't need high velocity for my deer hunting. Long experience has shown 2200 fps is plenty for the woods hunting I do. I want my sight line and trajectory as close to the bore line as possible from 0-100 yards too, as it makes it much easier to thread bullets over and under intervening branches. No big scopes mounted high over bore and none of this 3 inches high at 100 yards stuff for me thanks. Just makes it tougher to thread the needle when I need to shoot over a branch at 20 yards and under another at 60 to hit a deer at 80.

I wonder which bullet maximizes the hypersonic shock wave?

That's what I'm talking about.