On hot and high powered magnums...which lasts longer: Stainless or Blued?

What about a caliber like the 17 HMR? What is the barrel life like and would Stainless last longer?

I think you would have to get a metallurgist to give you a definitive answer on this as it is a very broad question in the sense that many variables could be introduced that would affect the correct answer. I do know that most barrel makers consider CM stronger than stainless (try to get Krieger to make you a pencil barrell in stainless.) However, I think this is consideration of tensile strength for safety reasons and not erosion resistance. Obviously, the conditions under which the rifle is fired is another consideration as well as numerous other factors. When all is said and done, I believe heat, bore smoothness and cleanliness are major factors in barrel life.

Here's what arguably the most knowledgable guy in the barrel business has to say about it:



Boots knows his stuff.

CAS,

This is excellent info....thanks a ton....

On the side, I really makes me happy that I chose Chrome-moly for my 325 WSM...as it will be my Alaska rig.

I know a lot of competitive shooters who also HUNT but use only stainless also when you build a custom hunting rifle with a CR Moly barrel you have killed its resale value as only a small percentage of hunters (none of the competitors that I shot with last weekend for example at the 1st 1000 BR match of the season use them) use anything but SS in its various forms. If you are going to keep the rifle forever then no worries but you have to ask yourself why do the people that compete that drive a lot of the innovation in this sport only use SS? Something to think about. Go to 6br.com or Benchrest Central and do a search on this topic --- you will be impressed at the data available. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BH,

Yeah, those Chrome Moly barrelled rifles don't bring dick for resale.

This one was $12,000

This one is $15,000

How about one for $25,500.

Damn, imagine if they had held their value well.

Look s$%^*&m head you are comparing rifles that for the most part do not see heavy field use unless you are a King or maybe a Prince but many of my hunting rifles run into the 2 to 4 thousand depending on actions etc but they are SS. How many competitions have you attended where non SS was being used? Yeah that�s what I thought. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I am sure you want a rifle like the ones you posted links to take to Alaska--yeah right. Go blow hot air up the south end of a north bound mule as you are selling but I aint buying! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Give Miller or Echols a call. Chit chat them about serious using rifles built with CM Barrels. Also ask them about resale value. People make money buying and selling those rifles.

CAS, the comment about stainless being easier to machine is exactly what Bill Leeper will tell you. He also says that that is why certain (he named names) barrel makers will recommend stainless barrels over CM. More bang for their buck.

On a related note Charley, that barrel that Bill turned for me averages .5" smaller groups (avg 1.25" to .75") with the same box of ammunition than before. Bedding blah blah, can all be taken into consideration, but the bottom line is I don't think it hurt that barrel any.

Chuck

Here is what is on Broughton Barrels site--these barrels are winning quite a bit the last few years but for what its worth and I have a few of them on my rifles along with others but more to read:

Quality Craftsmanship.....Extreme Accuracy....

Customer Satisfaction.....

We at Broughton Rifle Barrels / North Manufacturing Co., Inc. are dedicated to crafting one of the Premier Stainless Steel Rifle Barrels in the U.S.A.. For any serious shooter, be it a Hunter or Target Shooter, having a rifle built with quality components is a must. If you are wanting to build a rifle with a premier quality barrel that will give the shooter the edge they need to shoot that trophy mount or shoot a small group, then you want a Broughton Rifle Barrel.

Broughton Rifle Barrels are crafted from the finest material made today, 416R Crucible Stainless Steel. They are pulled button-rifled, triple stress relieved and hand lapped with a uniform land and groove diameter up to 0.0001" from breech to muzzle. Our muzzle is NEVER larger than our breech. The exterior of the barrel can be finished to your specifications from rough turned to a polished finish.

We offer a variety of land and groove combinations for most twist in calilbers 22RF to .375 . We are continually adding new selections to meet the demands of new bullets and cartridges. Please give us a call at 920-922-4882 for specific combinations.

In 2004 we introduced .224, .243, .264, .284 and.308 caliber 5C (canted land) barrels. These barrels being shot are showing exceptional clean ability, more velocity, reduced bolt pressure and extreme accuracy - shooting small groups at short and long ranges. We will expand this land formation into other calibers/twist that we offer in Fall of 2005. ***

Each barrel is crafted with the highest of quality standards. If a barrel doesn't meet our quality standards, it does not go out the door. From start to finish we track what is being done and the results to each barrel by serial number. If a customer has a question or concern about their specific barrel or would like a barrel simular as another customer, we can look it up and duplicate or correct the process. Our staff takes pride in every barrel we ship.

It is our commitment to you to craft the finest rifle barrel your money can buy. Give us a call at (920) 922-4882 to discuss your next barrel purchase. Quality, Accuracy & Customer Satisfaction is #1. We guarantee it!

Hey,$%@^# head, YOU were the one who brought up hunting rifles, now you want to bring competition rigs into it. If you try hard, I bet you can stick to one argument. It'll be difficult, but try for a moment. They make pills for that, you may want to see your doctor (if you can afford it).

I know a lot of guys who have chrome moly steel barrels. I'd bet a pretty penny that they hunt a HELL of a lot more than you, or most anyone else in the US. I never said that chrome moly was my first choice for a hard use hunting rifle, it clearly is not. I just pointed out how ignorant your statement was that chrome moly barrelled rifles don't bring high resale. That, my friend, is a dumb-assed argument if I have ever heard one. Stainless synthetic semi-custom rifles lose half their value the instant they go out the door. Best quality blued rifles tend to appreciate over time.

I'm glad to hear you have rifles costing $2 to $4K. I've pissed away more than that on some projects that never saw the light of day.

Go ahead and try and reframe the debate, since you got bitch slapped so bad on your hunting rifle resale example. I have never, and will never argue that Stainless is inferior for competition guns.

The BR crowd has several reasons for using stianless, none of which include resale.

Chrome moly barrels need to be finished to keep from rusting. Since finish is not necessary in BR, most don't want to incur the added expense.

Many people set their barrels back after the throats are worn. This is much easier with stainless, as it doesn't harden in the throat like chrome moly does.

Barrel makers agree that stainless barrels will take a better internal finish than chrome moly. Whether this finish improves accuracy is open to debate, but it is what it is.

The list goes on and on, but hey, you shot a match last weekend, so you must know it all.


BTW, if you were really interested, I'd tell you about a guy who used an unfinished (except for the rust on the outside) chrome moly barrel to win a BR shoot. He did it just to prove it could be done. I had a conversation with the guy who made the barrel fro him just the other day, and we laughed about the looks that must have been on the other competitor's faces.

Hey,$%@^# head, YOU were the one who brought up hunting rifles, now you want to bring competition rigs into it. If you try hard, I bet you can stick to one argument. It'll be difficult, but try for a moment. They make pills for that, you may want to see your doctor (if you can afford it).

I know a lot of guys who have chrome moly steel barrels. I'd bet a pretty penny that they hunt a HELL of a lot more than you, or most anyone else in the US.

Well I guess that could be true but I do hunt on any weekend I am at the ranch esp at night for the feral hogs. This time of the year we plant food plots--1800 lbs of seed drilled just waiting for rain so you would really be an idiot if you go there as I have spent more hours hunting than I can literally remember---I hunt feral hogs 360(considered vermin here) when you and your buddies are hunting if you want to call it that �high fence� which we all know does not really count. I am fortunate to be able to shoot and hunt at any time I want and if you are not smart enough to realize that the competitive shooting game drives the technological improvements in the industry you are not really that bright and maybe you need to do some more research. I noticed you said buddies who hunt�not speaking from experience are we�how many of the barrel manufactures have you spoken with (did I see you at the SHOT Show this year or any other years�I was at the first one in Dallas as well but I digress?) or how many world class gunsmiths have you spoken to who would recommend a non stainless barrel over a SS for the use in Alaska? I think you had better go and eat dinner put down the crack pipe and do your homework as Mommy is calling you to dinner.

Now that is funny, a guy from Texas, who hunts over bait, accusing me of non-sporting hunting (high fence). We have real hunting out west. You should try it sometime.

Go ahead and call "hunting" hogs real hunting if it makes you feel manly. Having killed one or two myself, I know better. Infer from that what you'd like. I've spent a day or two afield, and I can hold my own.



Clearly this debate is going nowhere, since you seem bent on reframing the debate into something other than it's original premise. I emplore you to show one single instance, anywhere in history where I made such an argument. Like I said before, your doctor has pills for this concentration thing.



Here we go with the concentration thing again. I'm telling you, the pills will do wonders for you.


Lets just say one or two. There are several who have put their kids through college with my help. I can name more than a handful who would know me if you mentioned my name. Think what you want though. If you want to compare numbers of custom tubes in the stable right now, we certainly can. I'm not afraid.

You'd be hard pressed to find a custom maker I haven't bought from, multiple times. You name it, I've tried it.

BTW, we should define "world class gunsmiths". I am thinking that the guys at Holland and Holland, Rigby, Westly Richards, Steve Heilman, Duane Wiebe, Joe Smithson, and about 100 more would qualify as "world class". They seem to universally like chrome moly barrels, and would recommend that their rifles be taken to Alaska. Of course I never made the argument that chrome moly barrels were superior in adverse conditions.


One last time, because you're slow.

Stainless synthetic semi-custom rifles routinely lose half or more of their value the instant they go out the door. Even mentioning the compostiton of the barrel in relation to resale value is friggin moronic. If you're worried about resale value, you should not be building semi-custom stainless synthetic rifles.




I wish. My Mother is a "World Class" cook, though I can't get her to do it anymore. Retirement has spoiled her, and my parents prefer to dine out any more.



Well said, and I agree 100%. You are an idiot.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />..................

MtnHtr

And we wonder why the Muslims can't get along.

Well it seems that you are the typical guy who spends most of his time on the computer boards rather than shooting or hunting--quite a few people are like that and there is nothing wrong with it. You just need to understand you limitations as clearly your pocket book exceeds experiences in the field. One comment you made really is preposterous is to compare high fence and baited fields�here it is legal (I have not killed a buck except for a cull in 6 years and I have not shot a Turkey in 10 we have so many they are pests) but the real issue and one that you are so clueless about I will not enlighten you (maybe a little) is game management. I have forgotten more than you will ever know about this subject. We are about making the habitat better and then more and more B&C animals will happen something you will not ever experience hunting high fence.

We spent hours deciding on the types of peas the 1st time planted (based on protein content, drought and insect resistance) to name just one of the spring food plot components than you do on a gun project. Both the TP&W and DOW Biologists as well as the Game Warden who has keys to the ranch agree that our game management program (no cows) is a model to not only improve deer and turkey but quail and other animals that make up the Eco System here. When you just walk around throw money down and hunt in high fence as I expect you and your friends do then well you are in a different league than this poor boy from Texas. Because of people like me you rich boys in Cali have a place to hunt and play with your expensive toys so you should just thank me as you are truly a rank amateur and should refrain from making comments in this area. I will be in South Dakota this summer for the VH Jamboree and we can finish this discussion over a beer and Toro (yes I eat Sushi and love it).

Below is a slightly edited for obvious reasons a recent email exchange between me and our TP&W Biologist:

From:
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 10:07 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Gate Sign

My schedule is crazy right now with the deadline for wildlife tax exemptions coming May 1st. I�ll be making landowner visits everyday until the 19th. I should be able to meet after that. Let me know what days work well for you after the 19th.

Thanks,

Nathan
Private Lands Biologist,
(817) 641-

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:42 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Gate Sign

Great!! Let me know what your schedule is and we will coordinate. I start shooting competitions this weekend and will be out next weekend as well.

Thanks,

David

________________________________________
From:
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 12:20 PM
To:
Subject: Gate Sign

David,

How�s everything going?

We�ve got some new gate signs that we had made for landowners who are working with TPWD under a wildlife management plan. I wanted to get one to you for ya�lls place. They are pretty nice looking and they�re also reflective. Let me know when you have time and we�ll meet up to get it.

Thanks,

Nathan
Private Lands Biologist,
(817) 641-




I must say that H&H makes an outstanding product (my wife works for the company that owns them) and have thought about getting one but the employee discount is almost nil on that one and I do not hunt the Dark Continent but they are works of art.

Wow!I'm a bit slow what's a $%@^# head? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now how did I know just from the subject line that this would end up being a pissing match. CM vs. SS ranks right up there with "How to break in a barrel" or "how to properly clean your bore". Ask 100 different people and you'll get 200 different answers.

BTW CAS, by my talley you're up by 4 points going into the third round.

Oh my goodness fellas.....CHILL!!!!!

Although, it has been a laugh hearing you two go at it. Makes my "serious" debates kindergarten.

So, at this point, we still don't know if imperical data supports blued or stainless....although, I tend to lean to the original posting from CAS.

I don't give a rip what people are buying...Many times that is the result of great Marketing, and terrible Science.

I asked a gunsmith about 15 years ago which was better stainless or moly. He said chrome moly was better except it was worse for fouling.
I don't know from experience because I have only worn out one barrel in my life, and it was the original chrome moly on a 1977 Model 70, 7 mag.
But when is a barrels life considered over? Probably to a competition match shooter sooner than for a hunter?
I have seen a salt water marsh duck hunting guides M870 pump rusted all to hell, but for the most part with modern cleaners and lubes I think rust is from a by gone era.
Has anyone had a fire arm actually rust within the past 20 years?

Straydog:

Come for a visit to Florida. Everything rusts here.

- TJM

You're right, I have no clue about game management. I prefer to hunt my game fair chase.

You win the game management (AKA high fance baited hunting) argument going away.

I'll just take my amateur ass and go chase deer the way I think is best, by hunting them on their turf, on their terms, where they are in charge of "management".




I've never even fired a rifle.





This is my favorite part of your last post. You wax eloquent (allegedly) about the moral decrepidness of high fence hunting, yet hunt behind a fence.

At least the signs are pretty and shiney!

We still don't know which one lasts longer, do we? Does resale value make a barrel wear faster or slower? Barrel makers have a vested interest, are they giving us an unbiased opinion? Benchrest shooters are like sheep, they follow the leader. If the leader wins with a stripe painted on his barrel they will all have stripes next week.

Now does anyone have a valid answer to the original question?

What was the question? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Bring on the imperical data! I mean empirical data.

I say CAS wins by a TKO the Ref needs to stop this it is too one sided

My imperical data is that I shot my SS Model 70 just over 3500 times before the barrel was throwing bullets at random. I keep a reloading journal for every shooting session and the total is scary accurate here.

3500 rounds in about 10 years is not all that much(for me)

Same rifle make in 300 weatherby, just over 2500 rounds with a Blued steel barrel, same problem throwing bullets every which way. After a rebarrel with a SS barrel I shot it 2500 times and sold it. The new owner had it for a few years and shot it an Estimated 1000 times, he does not keep records but made a "guesstimate" at this.

It would seem based only on this personal experience that the SS barrel shot about 27% more then the Blued Barrel. It may mean nothing at all but from what I have read so far it's the only factual presentation betwen the two so far.

Rust.....I suppose that is the benefit to living in Colorado....also, New Mexico, Arizona, Wyoming, Montana, Utah...et....

Arid and Dry....gotta love it.

mowzer,

I don't have my notes in front of me, but just going from memory of a few 22-250 barrels I burned out, I found that stainless gave better accuracy, longer, but when it fell off it completely went to hell.

Chrome moly seemed to lose it's best accuracy quicker, but held decent accuracy after the stainless barrels had completely puked.

The last stainless one I nuked went from shooting under MOA to over 5 MOA in the span of one short range session.

I've had chrome moly barrels just hang in there, gradually opening up until I replaced them.

Nothing rusts here in Western Oregon. . . . . .

At least, I don't ever see any . . . . . . . .

Though there might be rust underneath the moss . . . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BMT

Western Oregon has only two colors - EVERYTHING is GREEN and/or RUST.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is my favorite part of your last post. You wax eloquent (allegedly) about the moral decrepidness of high fence hunting, yet hunt behind a fence.

At least the signs are pretty and shiney! [/quote]


The fences are 5 to 7 strand depending on age barbed wire for cattle --- please tell me you are kidding and knew what that was even in Libatard Land you have fences. Well I think I know what your problem being a city slicker who thinks roughing it is no Starbucks. We will put you in the head gate and give you some worming medicine as you are acting a little wormy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />!

When you are hunting high fence this is not an issue but make sure when you are in Texas you do not cross a fence that has a post with a purple stripe at least 1 inch wide and at least 8 inches long that is no lower than 3 feet and no higher than 5 feet. Also, do not shoot across property boundaries as the bullet is technically trespassing and you will be cited. If you do shoot an animal and it crosses the fence and you pursue without getting the landowners permission you will be cited and he can deny you access BTW. If you pursue the animal across the fence and take your weapon with you then it elevates to a Class C Misdemeanor which means likely jail time among other things. I have had to turn in people for this stuff before so make sure you are aware of "fences" and what they mean. I do love catching the people that poach---I have literally many times watched (I have an area on a large hill located on the power line easement that I can see for thousands of yards in some cases) a nice young 6,8 or even a 10 point walk or run buy with his nose to the ground where a doe had run by earlier only to hear the crack of a rifle a few minutes later.

Our ranch is ringed on 2 sides by lease hunters (guys like you) who put their stands up right along the fence but I usually let them listen to the diesel rattle by a coupe of times in the morning and the afternoon--it helps them to understand we are there. That�s the way it goes but it is fair chase after all.

I love Barnett Shale.

BossHoss,

You would not last 10 minutes in CAS's hunting grounds. (insert scene of bent over heavyset loudmouth Texan heaving and puffing on steep side of mountain here).

MtnHtr

I hunt Elk and Mule Deer in New Mexico (Cloudcroft) in-laws live there and in Colorado in a National Wilderness Area GMU 85 if you know what it means to hunt in that environment. Now speak to me again oh toothless one---your breath is the same but your voice has changed!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Boss Hoss you may have some valid points in your argument,but you come off as a major A-hole!Just some constructive critizim from someone that's watching unbiased from the wings.

CAS, my ss factory barrel after those 3500 shots went very quickly as well. Unfortunately for me I was unaware of what had gone wrong because it occurred so fast. Nothing gradual about it.

I first swapped scopes, shot again no luck, checked stock screws, no luck shot again, checked rings and bases AGAIN! no luck, ran out of all ammo in stock at my place so I bought new brass, powder, primers bullets, checks everything under the sun and shot again, still no luck. I very likely put an additional 100 rounds through this thing trying to figure out what had happend. Finally off to Jong Ricks to fix it. He looked it over and said...... the barrel is "gone".

I would say my rifle went from perfect to horrible inside 25 shots. I suppose I prefer this to a gradual mess I would just put off. With this situation you have no option but rebarrel. If I only would have realized this before all the work I put in trying to figure it out. Who would have ever thought it would go that quickly? It was the first SS barrel I ever shot out though. The blued barrels seemed to just get worse over time and drag out. It was easier for me to realize the barrel was bad because of the gradual progression of poor accuracy.

This is what I truly love about the Internet, the ease with which we can obtain factual information in a flash, without the delays and slanted opinions so common in print media.

I have talked to a great many custom gunmakers and barrel makers, who universally recommend 416-series stainless for longer barrel life. How much longer the average stainless barrel will last depends very much on how hot it is shot, and the original quality of the barrel itself.

There's no doubt stainless is easier to care for in the field, but recently some new steel coatings have appeared on the scene that may make any barrel essentially care-free, both outside and inside. (I am fooling with one such barrel right now, and haven't made up my mind yet.)

The conditions under which stainless is much weaker than chrome-moly are VERY extreme, so many degrees below zero that most of us will never see them.

Whether the longer accuracy life of stainless this has anything to do with hunting rifles is another question. Most hunters can be considered lucky to shoot enough to ever wear out a barrel.

MD

Wow, it's been a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time since I have been acused of being a city slicker. Hell, I hate Starbucks, don't even really like coffee.

Here's the "high fence" operation that I hunt. This is just one small part fo the 16,000 acre ranch that I call my stomping grounds:




More of the "high fence" operation that I hunt out of state:





Since you seem to want people to think that you're a cowboy, you are probably familiar with the term, "All Hat, No Cattle". I think it applies well in your situation.

Have fun hunting those penned animals. If you really want to have some fun, I'll invite you to our slaughter this year. You can chase all the penned animlas you want and give them one behind the ear. Won't even break much of a sweat doing it. To make you feel at home, I will even pour a pile of corn in the middle of the pen so that they you can "set up" over it.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MD
Good luck interjecting a voice of reason in the middle of this .
T

Let's get this back on track:



That is an asinine comment, posted by a mental midget who has only the benefit of his pathetically small frame of refernce.

You're wrong, you got called out. You then tried to buy your way out of the bet, and got bitch slapped. Since you're a stubborn sort, you then tried to reframe the argument by accusing me of something you yourself do (and clearly have a guilty conscience from it). Once again you were wrong.

Hey, just relax. Perhaps looking at your pretty, shiney signs will help.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Okay, trying to ask a question here without getting any of this piss flying around all over me.

Only have two stainless barrels which I haven't shot enough to worry about, but have had 5 custom C-M barrels from Pac-Nor as well as bunches of factory barrels. Currently I have an early 90's vintage .243 M700 with a throat so eroded I can't hardly reach the lands with a 100 grain bullet and still be in the case. Velocity is 150-200 fps lower than where it should be (2800-2850 instead of 3000) but accuracy is still superb, even with 85 and 75 grain bullets that have to take a long commute to get to the throat.

Anyway - on to the question. If stainless barrels go from good to bad in a relative instant, like over 25 rounds or one range session, what is the mechanism behind that? What is it that makes the barrel "bad"? Does the throat suddenly give way and chunks of throat flake? That doesn't make sense but again I've never worn out a stainless barrel so far.

BTW - no need to go through Barrels 101 here, I'm certainly familiar with the basics of accuracy. My main concern here is why the stainless barrels go from good to bad so fast when a c-m barrel apparently just slowly dies out.

+1

Yeah--that�s the trouble with me is when someone starts something I usually respond too aggressively <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> but fortunately I get to do the things I talk about. This all started over a discussion of a rifle to be used in the hostile environment of Alaska and the use of a non SS barrel and with many of the coatings/plating available today running the gambit from Walter Birdsong�s to Armaloy�s and everything in between can make the use of other steels acceptable but remember to be classified as SS the CR content needs only to be about 12% and I have seen SS rust esp. in marine environments! Now many grades of SS have significantly higher amounts of CR and that certainly helps but the notion that SS will not rust is not correct. The comment about resale value centered around the fact that a rifle built for Alaska would be different component wise than one used to hunt bean fields in Alabama not to mention caliber. This aside most people who looking for a rifle to be used in some of the harshest climate that a rifle could see would be looking at not only a SS barrel but a SS or aluminum or TI action as well. The actions I use on my hunting rifles vary from SS to aluminum but everyone has their preference! Now let�s discuss the different materials to create pillars from in the bedding process along with the type of bonding material used to �glue in� the action when required�I prefer FMS 2014 material but I am sure my learned colleague from Cali will enlighten me beyond my wildest dreams <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />!

Jim, it was explained to me that the blued steel barrels will pit gradually and wear away the pitting.

Stainless Steel begins to have little fractures in the surface that eventually break away and shoot out with the bullet. It seems logical to me me that as long as the little cracks in the surface are there all is still good. But when they break away and depart the barrel you now have a chunk missing that will scrape away your jacket and foul badly in that spot. I think from that it becomes easier to see why it's all at once.

I'm not metalurgist, or chemist, or even a barrel expert. Just relaying the same info that was told to me.

That's exactly what I was speculating - the c-m wears evenly from the first shot but the stainless gets brittle (for lack of a better word) and then suddenly it gives way with chunks being torn out of the throat. Now that I think about it, it does make more sense.

Heck, my solution has been to just have more guns than I can shoot, that way I never shoot one enough to wear it out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jim,

According to Boots, when stainless wears, it looks like "a dried-up mud puddle, having large flats with fracture lines". When one of these flakes lets loose, that is when accuracy goes.

I don't own a borescope, so can;t confirm but I think that is what happened to the stainless barrels that I have puked. I had one of them set way back and rechamebred, and accuracy came back. I can only guess that the rechambering removed the most severely damaged portion of the throat.

I think the main thing to remember here is that while you sit in front of your LCD or CRT "furiously abusing yourself" I will be out shooting and hunting this weekend (well Friday as Saturday have a match)--if we shoot any hogs I will email you the pictures and turkey season is open but I don't shoot them any more <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Now go back to whipping your "shooting stick"! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh sorry--Have A Nice Day! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> One thing you have to ask yourself assuming that the 25 sections is yours (or do you lease) what have you done as a steward of the land to make it better? Conservation is a very good thing but just stomping around does not really qualify and putting back into from which you take is a good thing. Being from Libatard Land I would think you would be well versed in this area! This year we will be hunting in Colorado 1st rifle and I will try not to huff and puff to loud <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> as it scares the wabbits! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now---I like my sweet corn cut off of the cob and pan roasted just to the point where the carmalazation process starts in a seasoned butter sauce! Please let me know when it will be ready Monsieur Escoffier! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ya managed to do it again! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Why I see you are from New York!!!! (Imagine very heavy Georgia accent�this is important!!) I wus forteen year old befoe I knew that Damn and Yankee weren�t one word! That was a joke <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />! Now didn�t your momma teach you that when you wrestle with a pig in the mud that after a while you learn that the pig LIKES IT!!
Oink Oink!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ahhh finally something of value well almost----without a bore scope you are just guessing and we all know that one test is worth 1k expert opinions. Now many people think they have a shot out barrel when it is only fouled with carbon and copper. 99% of the people who think they have a clean bore because the patch no longer comes out green are often sadly mistaken. The fouling builds up in layers and this is something I learned the hard way is that carbon is the most difficult thing to remove and it always requires brushing in the front 8 to 10 inches of the bore. I personally use Isso paste but JB will work as will other products. Always make sure the barrel is Clean as it is a true secret that most are not really aware of. Now my learned friend in Cali will surely find fault in this but so be it.

CAS,

In the BR game we run 800 to 900 rounds and then rechamber.Or at least Ive done it that way a few times.The typical length of set back, is the length of threads into the action.On HV rifles we would start out with 24 and then end up around 18 at the shortest.Doing this would keep you in the "hunt" accuracy wise.A fresh throat is a wonderful thing.
Never over look rod wear.An awful lot of barrels get screwed by the monkey on the cleaning rod. These were all SS barrels.Ive never seen a CM barrel in the BR game but Im sure its been done.
As far as CM in the BR game.I think it would be take a great amount of attention to detail on the barrel makers part.But I dont see any reason why it couldnt be done.I was under the understanding that barrel makers prefered SS to CM in the BR game beacuse they had better luck getting the Button process more uniform.SS is MUCH softer than CM..
If anyone in this game has a problem with what something costs.They they better take up knitting.
dave <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

dave <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Boss,

You Sir, are a Royal A$$!

It's too bad, because you may have some useful information to share, but, by the way you come across here, no one is going to listen.

Maybe it would be best if you went back to where ever you came from. I'm sure they'll appreciate you more than us! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Look above at the Yankee post! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Remember I did not start it but am well---you don't have fire ants up there but you get the idea! Only opinions from south of the Mason Dixon are considered valid!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Again a Joke!

Teeder;

He ain't gonna listen, 'cause yer a damnyankee.

However, I'm not, and I ain't from the PRK, nor any damnyankee territory.

So, how's about dropping the pissin' match, pullin' the burr from under your saddle and just lettin' it go?

CAS has more custom rifles, and shoots/hunts them in more places each year than I care to think about. He's bt/dt.

You seem to have your share of rifles, custom and otherwise, you shoot and hunt plenty, and have a good bit of info in that head of yours.

Now, how's about tryin' to share that without it going by that chip on your shoulder first?

There's plenty of folks 'round here who likely shoot more than you or I, hunt more than either of us, own far more guns (custom and otherwise), and have more knowledge about certain things firearms related than we could hope to learn on our own.

Hey, I get ornery, too sometimes, but ya gotta know when to drop the [bleep] and let it go.

How's about tryin'?

Dave,

My barrel was set WAAAAY back. It started life as a 22-250, and is ending it's life as a 22ppc fireform barrel.

I will ask the barrel maker I spoke of about the name of the guy who won the match with a rusted CM barrel. As the story was told to me, the shooter was visiting with the barrel maker, and saw a stack of rusted steel in the corner. He asked the maker what they were, and was told that they were undrilled Crome Moly blanks.

The barrel maker took one off the pile and made a barrel that the shooter then installed and proceeded to win with. I was told the thing was ugly as hell, and I imagine it was.

This is fun---Ok--am leaving in 5 minutes to go eat lunch with one of the best Smiths in the buisness as he called me while he was at the Heat Treater and is on my side of town. I will ask him a question but hurry and ask me as I have to go.

Hmmmmm . . . . .

I gotta try that.

BMT

I'm going to lunch with BLAH BLAH BLAH.Juvenile and unimpressing.Ask him why your a pompus ass!!!

Ok but he already knows that---WAIT you need to read the above post!!!!!!! Sorry did not see where you were from!!! SYL

Boss,

From the sounds of it, you're still pissed 'cus us Damnyankees whooped you're reb a$$es! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's a joke , Boy! (done in my best Foghorn Leghorn Voice) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ps. You can keep the fire ants!

BMT;

Count me in; that sounds like a very good solution... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yes I think I would prefer a gradual loss of accuracy, rather than have a bad barrel suddenly go out during a hunting trip. Bummer.

Hypothetical question directed at no one in particular.
When you antagonize a poor dumb brute (not the best choice of words but i don't want to spend time trying to do better) to misbehave, who's at fault? The antagonizer or the pdb.
You guys are on the verge of accomplishing something useful. You might want to consider getting to it. JMO

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Boy Boy listen to me when I am talkin to ya Boy!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOVE FOGHORN!


Went to lunch with my cousin (my name is really Slowpoke Rodriquez) and we talked a little about the SS issue and since he is a BR shooter himself and is better than anyone I know his opinion which already I knew was SS for various reason which all had to do with accuracy and longevity. Now what the definition of accuracy is a completely subjective to the individual. What level of accuracy you might be happy with for a hunting rifle may or may not meet someone else's expectations. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Ya gotta have a sense of humor!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Nothin' like some good old Looney Tunes to break the ice! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey this is no s&(t I have guns with "Slowpoke Rodriguez" on them as I am the slowest mouse in all of Mexico but I carry a gun---kind of a joke by my Cousin! He is teaching me the ins and outs of the game---he is a short range guy and I am a long range wanna be and started shooting short range this year as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's funny! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I call my son "Slowpoke Rodriguez". He thinks that's the funniest thing in the world! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yep--bought one of the Slowpoke Pepsi glasses from back in 1973 off of Ebay last week and it looks great! Now I have mine and my Cousin has his as he is a very fast mouse! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just a note from a project we did last year that applies with what's being discussed here.

For the project we ordered in two barrel blanks, one from Pac-Nor and one from Douglas, both 6.5mm 1-8" twist. Both barrels were chambered using PT&G 6.5x284 reamers to the same specified depth (go gauge sticking 0.130" out of the chamber), and both were cut to 26 inches in length. Both barrels were fitted to timed & trued Savage actions which were then both glass and pillar bedded into their stocks. In short, we made them as identical as physically possible outisde of the blank manufacturer.

Both guns had loads developed individually, but we set the speed limit to a max of 3000fps. In the end both shooters reached this velocity range with ease, but the powder charges differed greatly (55.6gr on the Douglas, 58.5gr on the Pac-Nor).

Both shooters used Ramshot Magnum powder from the same lot, CCI primers from the same lot, Norma brass from the same lot, and 139gr Lapua Scenar bullets from the same lot. Again, the goal was to keep things as even as possible in terms of equipment and ammo components.

Out of the box the Pac-Nor showed a slight advantage in the accuracy department, but nothing substancial. We attributed this to the fact that the Pac-Nor barrels are hand lapped while the Douglas barrels are not, thus the Douglas needed a little time to smooth itself out through what I refer to as fire lapping. The Douglas settled in with accuracy on par with the Pac-Nor after we had 125 to 150 rounds through it.

At around 800 rounds, the Pac-Nor barrel's accuracy started slipping ever so slightly. Previously a 3/4 MOA gun at 400 yards, the shooter had to fight to maintain sub-MOA groups at this point. The Douglas barrel on the other hand continued to hold steady shooting groups just over 3/4 MOA at the same distance.

By the time we reached the 1,000 round mark in the test, the Pac-Nor had degraded to offering 1.25 MOA groups on average at 400 yards, with consitency becoming an issue. The Douglas was just starting to show signs of accuracy going away with groups still hovering right around the 1 MOA mark.

When we pulled the barrels at 1,200 rounds, we sent them both to Tim North (Broughton Barrels) to be evaluated. Tim had no clue which barrel came from which manufacturer, as they were simply marked "A" and "B". Tim scoped both barrels and provided a detailed analysis based on what he saw in each. Here were his comments:



So what's my point with all this? Simply that it's hard to say which barrel (CM or SS) will have a longer life as even two SS barrels from different sources can show drastic differences in how long they'll last. Throw in the variable that the load you're using (bullet type, burn rate of the powder and the velocity being achieved) can have a major effect on bore wear as well, and now we're looking at an endless possibility of variables.

I just finished reading this whole thread, and I had to go outside with a tape measure.

Unless any of you can beat seven feet, I declare myself winner of the pissing contest.

The debate rages on.....

Where you measurin' from boy . . . . . .

From the Tip of the Spout or the base?

Was you on a porch standin' above the level ground?

Did ya'll have the wind at yer back?

Was you pissin' into the wind?

Ya see, boy . . . .

Now listen up here . . . . .

Ah say, Ah say BOY, Listen up . . .

Git back here son . . . . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(apologies to Foghorn Leghorn)

BMT

Click here

Click here

MtnHtr

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BMT

Guys:

I get myself a little stressed out when I read threads like this, and I can never stop myself from reading them.

It gets so that every time I pull the trigger of a rifle I'm fond of, I feel like I'm abusing it.

- TJM

MrFurious
Thank you.And some people actually think they know something about this stuff.
dave <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ditto.

Good stuff.

Seems like a gun either is used to the point where a barrel replacement is needed in a few years, else it never does because it isn't used that much. But with everyone shooting magnums nowadays, it seems like a man is taking a chance if he buys one used. Stainless or CM seems less of a player than caliber in any event.

I always wondered about the surface finish between the two though. Unless a really high quality stainless is used carbon steel almost always produces a higher quality edge on a pocket knife. Edge retention usually ends up scaling with carbon content. So I was always curious if these traits palyed any part in barrel cleanliness or accuracy.

Will

If you buy used custom rifles or even factory ones----take the Hawkeye with you! One look will dispel any line of BS someone is feeding you remember CAVEAT EMPTOR!!

You can also pick up on a deal or not because some poor schmo did not know how to clean his rifle and thinks it is shot out or did not know how to use his cleaning equipment and damaged the inside of the barrel!

Good Info

Hey
I can feel the LUUUUVVVHHH here.

BB

Where's the dude from AR when we need him.