What's this I am hearing about a new .22 caliber cartridge from Nosler? Anybody have any dope on this cartridge yet?
I am hoping for a 22 Creedmoor type with a 7 or 8 inch twist

I'm betting we will find out in the next couple of days.

Same here. 22-250 Ackley speeds in a 7 twist would be a good market to be in.

I heard it might be a 6.8 SPC necked to .22 cal.

I have been itching to build a .22 centerfire. Just can't decide on what.

Its not. I checked the specs...its damn close, but no cigar! Probably closer to that than anything else though.

Might match my 22-243AI?????????

I'm just guessing by what I could find but it will be closer to the performance of a .223AI than to the .22-250 or .243 sized cases....

Assuming I don't slide off the Interstate tomorrow morning, I'll ask them about it at DSC.

Oh, good. I am getting an AR built in that clambering.


Would not be as fun if it was commercial.

Pretty sure that it is a souped up AR cartridge, built roughly on the SPC or Hagar case.

It should get the "most" out of a 22 caliber AR magazine restraints.

Doesn't excite me much personally, but I suppose it is the natural evolution of the 22 caliber AR platform.

Might be a good match to a Howa Mini or Zastava M85, or the CZ527.

I see the 527 is going to be offered in 6.5 grendel.

Would be a neat rifle in .22 somethingorother.

Great gun for the lads first deer gun - see wheels turning

I heard somewhere, Here maybe ? , that CZ was changing/fixing the bottom metal on this years 527 . Anyone know anything ?

Yes, I heard that too.

I actually want to get a .17 Hornet before they change the bottom metal. I like it for some reason.

I was a fan of the original 452 as well.

However, a 527 in stainless with a laminate stock would be great, no matter what bottom metal it had.

The 452 was a .22LR, I think you're thinking of the BRNO Fox, or a BRNO 465 which has a little longer mag in the .22 Hornet, also chambered in .222 .

It carries fine in my 7.62x39 carbine

Nothing wrong really with a protruding single stack dbm, just know that a staggered column internal mag with hinged floorplate, would serve the .223 & .204 chamberings so much better.

If the mag is long enough and the twist tight enough, I would consider reaming one out to .22-204 75 Amax .

Oh well. But if if it is AR based I imagine they will be partnering with Noveske again so it will be done right. Unlike when Reminton introduced the .30 AR. A .300 Savage in an 5.56 sized AR seemed so good but Remington cocked it up.

My guess (and it's a total guess ) would be that Bob is going to revive the .223 Weatherby project.

Basically, that case is the .223 Ackley Improved with Weatherby's signature Powell-Miller venturi shoulder. The case capacity is identical to the .223 Ackley.

Nosler's Ballistic Lab did all of the development work on the .223 Weatherby and I have several of the Oehler printout sheets on it. Keeping chamber pressure UNDER SAAMI for the .223 Remington, the Improved case yields a cool 4,000 fps with 40-grainers, 3,700 fps with 50s and 3,500 with 55-grain bullets.

Weatherby was about to introduce the round and I even wrote a cartridge profile for the Nosler Reloading Manual ... when Weatherby suddenly decided to drop the project.

Frankly, it was a huge waste of my time and effort, trying to help the folks out. Water under the bridge now, but it was a bit of a piss-off.

Rumor had it, at the time, that Weatherby supplied one-million Norma cases to Nosler for the cartridge load development. Maybe Nosler held onto the cases and decided to go forward with the project themselves.

Anyway, that would be my guess.

God Bless,

Steve

PS. I was sworn to secrecy about the .223 Weatherby project at the time. It's now several years later, so I guess it's now OK to talk about it. By this time, both the folks at Nosler and at Weatherby have totally forgotten about an elderly has-been minor gun writer, so "It don't mean nothin'".

Steve,

Do you recall what twist rate they were going to use?

Steve,

Thanks for the insight mate.

- Bob

No idea, but I'd guess 1:12 or 1:14.

I pulled one of the Oehler test sheets from my file. The barrel is 26-inch Wiseman, but the twist-rate is not identified.

The particular load on the sheet is 31.0 grains of H-335 behind the 40-grain Ballistic Tip. Muzzle velocity averaged 4,111 fps; ES is 38 fps and the SD is 14.

The five-shot group measured .39-inches.

Interestingly, they identify the brass as Federal; why not Nosler????

Below is the data sheet from Nosler. This might piss off some industry folks, but I'm not a part of the firearms industry any more ... as if I ever was.

They would be missing the boat if they twisted that at 12-14"


But boats have been missed before....

For no practical reason, I would prefer to see it be a .220 Swift AI without the semi-rim. Seems it would make more sense and be more in keeping with the apparent philosophy behind their other proprietary rounds (bigger, faster, badder, long-rangers.) It could make a sizzler of a varmint round and they might even develop a bullet in the 70 - 75 grain range specifically for pronghorn, deer, whatever...

I don't see where much of anything else mentioned as possibilities doesn't do much that's not already being done.

Glad to see ya come clean.....I've know about that for quite a while, and a pity they didn't follow through.

However, I don't believe the case print of the new round is close to the 223 Weatherby.

[/quote]

Steve,

Thank you. Always wondered about that.

very near 6mm Hagar case dims

Steve,
Do you have the case dimensions for the abandoned 223 Weatherby?

Thanks!

The 223 Weatherby would be a fun round, for sure. Why would they wait on that one?

The ammo , 77 grain.
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....custom-competition-match-grade-20-rounds
Ronnie

Good to see this..if they are loading 77 grainers, they are twisting it fast....

My thoughts exactly. From Nosler's own webpage, here is a 77gr .22 bullet. Note the twist requirements.



John

This could be good......hope somebody besides Nosler chambers a proper rifle for it...

Just saw this, some pictures of the 22 Nosler and the cartridge dimensions.



http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/attachments/f19/69305d1483850184-22-nosler-img_2139.jpg

http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...97026736115_4058121375973596483_n-1-.jpg

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/attachments/f19/69302d1483849862-22-nosler-22-nosler.jpg

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/22-nosler-181024/

Interesting.

Steve,

The .223 Weatherby (like the .223 AI) did NOT get those velocities at those pressures, which is why Weatherby abandoned it.

The original pressure-testing was done with strain-gauge equipment, which can result in unreliable pressure readings, due to several factors, often lower than actual pressures. Strain-gauges can work fine, but since there wasn't any "reference" ammo there was no way to check the original load work-up. More work in other labs indicated pressures were much higher.

This happens occasionally. Chub told me years ago that the Nosler lab's results with the .257 Roberts Ackley Improved showed higher velocities with less pressure than the .25-06, which has at least 10% more powder room than the .257 AI. But neither of the two major piezo pressure labs I'm acquainted with have ever been able to find any magic velocities due to case shape. Instead they report that the only way to get more velocity at the same pressure is to use a larger-capacity cartridge.

The reason many wildcats SEEM to produce the same velocity as larger cartridges is traditional "pressure signs" normally don't appear until pressures are in the 70,000 PSI range, and often even higher. This is exactly why 7mm STW velocities reported by various shooters (including Layne Simpson) dropped around 200 fps when Remington introduced the STW commercially. Widely-used handloads developed far more pressure than SAAMI considers acceptable for ammunition to be fired in a wide variety of rifles in a wide variety of conditions.

Looks like they designed it for AR rifles which I have no interest in since they are restricted here but I would have interest in a bolt action or single shot rechambered to the 22 Nosler.

I have a Interarms Mini-Mauser that could be re-barreled to .22 Nosler.

Should be a fun little cartridge to use on coyotes.

Looking at the cartridge dimensions of the 223 the 22 Nosler is a bit shorter so a 223 would have to be set back first and then rechambered. Case length and OAL are the same.

I think it'd be a waste of time in a bolt gun.




Dave

That may be but I'll still think about it..........

223 AI is all I need...........53 V max @ 3500.......

many years of barrel life...or my std 223..........

call me a frugal shooter........

Yup,but the barrel on the Mini-Mauser is 20" right now. If I were to re-barrel it,I would with a slim 24" barrel.

Pics of the rifle.

Not much new under the sun.

My 22-250 will stomp your .223 into the dirt.

But the AR aspect makes sense.




Dave

Frugal shooter......

Oboy ,can't wait for the 20 Nosler and 17 Nosler and what ever redundant cartridge they can come up with next!

It would if you already have a tight twist .223AI....




Or not....

Ingwe (or 'gwe as the gnome calls you) I bet you have one before the year is done

http://www.scout.com/military/snipe...fles/15301335-new-for-2017-the-22-nosler

Here's a link with a picture and ad copy for the new round. As suspected, it is built off the SPC case.

All it takes for the switch in the AR platform is an upper and a SPC magazine.

yea yea yea..........your 38 gr charge to the 27.5 gr charge in the

223AI......'yote or p/dog won't know the diff.....but the shooter

will.....muzzle blast....erosion...increased powder costs...9K rds

outta of 22-250.......? doubtful..........go 223AI........oh yea...

I drive a Chev & 'Yota's too..........

I love the .223 case but it will never be a 22-250.

EVAH.





Dave

You're overcompensating...

Maybe.

But my cartridge leaves your cartridge in the dust.




Dave

The mighty .223AI has never even seen the dust!

Not on the internet....




Clark

Nor on the Hi-line!

The .223 AI is a waste of time.




Dave

And a .22-250 is a waste of powder.....


Unless of course its mine....

I have considered reloading for .223 in the past, I save all my brass.

Its just too cheap.

Why wouldn't they offer it with a 40 grain bullet?

A M E N........

least we'll never run outta brass...........

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

I was hoping Ruger (or Nosler) would domesticate the .22-250AI or heck, even the .22-243, in a fast twist. Oh well.

Why in the world would they?

Are gophers that tough now?

Have you ever heard of ballistic coefficient?

It does not matter how fast you throw a kleenex box, it still won't buck wind.

Plenty of slow twisted .22s out there for light bullets. Even more, heavy bullets will kill little stuff just fine..

Sure, I am still waiting for a 50 grain bullet for my .17 Fireball.

If folks want to shoot 77's at gophers thats fine with me.

I dont figure that this cartridge is really geared toward the gopher shooter...

Probably not I guess. What would it be for though?

The link above was sorta hinting at AR usage. Would there be much advantage within the constraints of the the magazine?

The .22x6.8 I am gathering parts for is for varmints and such. Sorta always figured thats what a .22 was good for.

Seems like another redundant round with no advantage over old stuff and that will be out of production in a few years. Anyone buying one had better stock up. That rebated rim means you can't make cases out of commonly available brass.

I'm pretty sure this nails it.....

I dunno...the .22 Creedmoor I am currently having done is being set up for 80gr Amaxes, and its sole mission in life will be coyotes.

This cartridge, of course, will be different. Within the confines of an AR magazine, the 73gr ELD and 70gr RDF will be pretty fun at the speeds this should produce. A slow twist is a handicap on any cartridge, but especially on one like this.

22 Creedmoore? 22-250 AI?

80 grain in something like that sounds interesting.

I bet the boys will want a 90 grain for the 22 Nosler.

A 90 would be fun...gonna be a tight fit in a mag..

I shoot an 85 out of my 25-06 AI.

If I decide to go really heavy I might try the 90's.

I know a lot of old guys who do that....

You could turn down the rims on a 6.8SPC or 30 Remington, if necessary. Would be a pain.

If it takes off in the AR platform, as the maximum one can squeeze out of it, then there will be plenty of brass around for a lifetime of shooting. If it doesn't tickle the fancy of the AR boys, then it will die a slow death.

I'd have been happy with a 22-204. I run a 6.8 AR so will be watching how this pans out. I also have a pard with a 22-6.8 from ARP and he's just starting to dabble with it.

Pretty impressive speed with the small bullets in 22-6.8.

Oh my fugking Christ on the cross...



Dave

Asked about this at DSC. It is a little faster 223. Made mostly for the AR platform. They will make a bolt gun, also.

Interesting.

Yes, I am well aware you don't approve, and that you disagree that the results others are getting aren't true. Still, could not care less.

Still think a 22Creedmoor has 5-6grns more water capcity than a 22-250AI? Still think a 22Creedmoor can safely achieve speeds that drive a 22-250AI to 80,000psi?

I noticed you went silent on the precvious discussion, was hoping you had finally startrd to do a little ciphering. I see now that's not the case, Good luck keeping your fingers, eyes, etc when you get the new rifle.



David

Alright.

Many "old guys" always disparage new cartridges as doing nothing that "tried and true" cartridges don't already do. What they don't get is that most cartridge development in the past century has NOT been to increase velocity.

Most basic smokeless-powder calibers and velocities were established by 1917. Most of what's been done for the past 100 years is tweaking case-shapes to produce the same ballistics so cartridges will work in different actions.

This is because actions varied considerably over the first few decades of smokeless powder, when many were weeded out. They still continue to be refined, and the increasing popularity of AR's is a perfect example. But much cartridge development during the last half of the 20th century was due to the appearance of the Remington 722 in the late 1940's, which fixed "short" bolt-action magazine length at a little over 2.8 inches.

Then came the high-BC bullet trend, due to affordable, civilian laser range-finders, which appeared in the 1990's. This made too many of the established "short" cartridge a little too long for the now-established short-magazine length.

No, muzzle velocities and bullet diameters haven't really changed much in the last century. But rifle actions have. Not every action is made to accommodate the .30-06 or .375 H&H anymore, or even the .308 Winchester. If you prefer using such actions, and cartridges and bullets to fit them, by all means do so. There are plenty around.

But not everybody wants to, the reason there are no laws against case-shape tweakings to accommodate 21st-century realities in rifle actions or bullet shape. You may consider these "fads," but millions of other shooters don't.

I remember a time, a whole decade ago, when many Campfire experts were questioning the reasons for the 6.5 Creedmoor, predicting it would fall flat on its face because "it doesn't do anything the 6.5x55 or .260 don't do." If the only reality in rifle cartridges was muzzle velocity, then they would have been absolutely right. But it isn't, which is why the 6.5 Creedmoor is well on its way to becoming a standard chambering.

So get over it.

not in my parts.......

20 cal V max tears 'em up........

Well, I am excited the 22x6.8.

Gunsmith has a reamer and dies.

Plus a Lilja barrel........

I suppose I am in the distinct minority, but 40 and 50 grain bullets are all I am going to shoot in it.

Gophers beware ! What platform Jim ?

If they weren't such a pain to possess and shoot in Canuckistan, I'd have one in an AR for gophers etc.

Given that restriction , and the rebated brass issues; I can't see what it does for me in a bolt/single that any of a .223 / .204 / .22-250 doesn't already. Time will tell.

Its going to be an AR.

26 inch barrel, medium heavy contour, gas block will be .750.

Nothing to take a walk with, but I have a prairie dog town in my back yard.

We wont be using the .22 Nosler with the rebated rim.....just a regular neck down of the 6.8.

Sure, I have a .17 fireball, several .221's, .223's and a 22-250....plus I am going to order a .17 hornet.

It's my nickle right?

Barrel life might be poor, but as my gunsmith likes to say, "they make new barrels every day."

Load data ,
https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/22-nosler/
Ronnie

And yet all their load info shows data from a 24" barrel...............

MM

JB - I think the Creedmoor ammo quality and cost, along with factory rifles did more to shore up it's sales and acceptance as much as it's design attributes. It is a good one. One might only imagine what the 260 Might have been had Remington done what Hornady did....offer match quality ammo at good prices. Not in the cards for Rem to do such a thing.....

I suspect the new round will deliver, how many converts Nosler has will be interesting, but the 223 market is huge, and they surely will get some piece of it.

As JB has pointed out in the past, Nosler doesn't go after the Everyman market with their cartridges, but rather the folks that want a something a little special. Seems to be working out for them.

I'd feel safer investing in a Nosler (or Hornady) creation than in something new from Remington or Winchester, who have pulled the plug pretty quickly on stuff that didn't take off in the market right away.

Another .224" cartridge? Oh joy. Now it should be noted that there are a few .224" chamberings in my safe, .223 Remington, 5.56 NATO, .223 Wylde, .22-250 Remington and .22-250 Ackley, and somewhere in the gloom at the rear of the safe, a .220 Swift resides. The newer rifles, all homemades, have faster twists, 1:10", 1:9" and 1:8" all for the advent of the lead free stuff such as Barnes Varmint Grenades, Hornady's NTX, and Nosler's really great BT Lead Free.

While I usually jump on the bandwagon for new cartridges, loving the excitement of experimenting with new loads and endless Excel spreadsheets of chronograph data, this time I'll pass. Why? Because I can, and because I also have numerous other fabulous cartridges that are obscure, obsolete, unobtainable or limited to seasonal runs, or proved foolish after the hype wore off. The .243 WSSM comes to mind, a truly unsung misunderstood cartridge that I found superb for varmint when loaded with 62 grain Barnes Varmint Grenades in a 1:8" twist Brux barrel. Ground squirrels feeding on wet alfalfa simply disappeared, sucked into a vortex to another dimension, out to 350 yards. But everybody laughed at the fat stubby little case, and I proved prescient when cornering the market on .243 WSSM brass to keep it fed.

Then I must ask, just how much killing is necessary when hunting ground squirrels? The photo below is what remains of one such rodent when hit by a 50 grain Varmint Grenade from a .22-250 Remington at a bit over 100 yards. Note that I think it was trying to flip me the bird just before his paw was disconnected from his central nervous system. A few feet-per-second more hardly making much difference, with this extended as true for bullets designed for larger game.



Nonetheless, it's good Nosler keeps the bandwagon rolling along with excellent products for new generations of hunters and shooters.

Fast twist, heavy bullet .22s are hardly for the folks poking squirrels at a hundred yards.

Finallly. Now I can do something with the POS Remington 700 I have in 6.8 spc. Minute of barn on a good day. Salami 22-6.8 with the nosler name will likely have more plumbers with a reamer.

Not really...the 22 Nosler doesnt share a bolt face with the 6.8SPC...So...your 6.8 will be harder to rechamber than a standard .223. Why not just go with a standard 22-6.8?

I would be interested in an upper if they had pushed the shoulder back and shortened the case a smidge, to make it magazine-friendly with the longer ogive high BC bullets.

I'd happily give up some powder space/MV, for higher BC.

As it is, no interest whatsoever.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.


It's working, I can feel it.

LOL!

I am a sucker for correct head stamp brass.

I reckon I should ask the gunsmith if his .22-6.8 reamer is the same as the .22 Nosler.

If I go .22 Nosler and they quit making brass I could switch bolts and keep shooting 22-6.8.....if the reamers are the same.

Yes I missed that it was a 378 case head in my excitement. Main reason for not going 22-6.8 is nobody local has a reamer. I'll send it out someday as soon as I find the Rock 8 twist 223 blank I bought for it.

Looks like I am going to have to pick one or the other.

Not the same case with a different head.

Are you sure?

As in, not the same case at all, or just different shoulder dimensions?

The new 22 Nosler uses the small .378 casehead dimension, so that an AR shooter does not have to switch bolt carriers.

It is a rebated rim in order to get down to that small size.

That's a cute little booger. If I couldn't stand the .223 chamber any longer, it'd become an 8-twist .223AI, or full classy with a .222Rem.

Shane,

You pretty much nailed it.

Picture is worth a thousand words.

.223 Rem W/69gr TMK--.22 Nosler W/77gr HPBT----.220 WYO W/75gr AMAX.

What's the 220 WYO anyway? Haven't heard much about that one.