:)Actually the 7x57 will do about anything the other two will do, for most of us. Plus those are based on the 7x57. I know some will say that they are based on the 8x57, but that's not true. When the troops, and generals return that wanted to copy the 7x57. Have fun with this! captdavid

Ah, but we had a President who not only wanted to better the Spanish's Mauser rifles, he wanted to best the Kaiser's 7,92x57 Model 98. Hence, US Ordnance developed the 1903 based on the 1898 not the 1893/95 design.

Mr. Roosevelt didn't like Herr Albert's attempt to get France and England in a coalition to stop the US in 1898. The Kaiser also tried to grab land in the Philippines before the US could take full control.
And then, he tried to get land to build ports in Mexico to home his fleet, which could threaten the entrances to the soon to be completed Panama Canal. So, when he became President, Roosevelt felt the Kaiser was a threat to the US.

The 1903 Rifle and 30-06 cartridge are based on the 1898 Mauser Rifle and 7.92x57 cartridge. When the Germans came up with the high velocity Spitzer round in 1905, the US countered with the 1906 cartridge.
The US Ordnance Dept was sued by Mauser for patent infringement on aspects of the 1898 design, not the 7mm cartridge nor the earlier rifle designs.
History, not pop culture, paints a more complete picture.

Oh by the way. The 8mm Commission cartridge came before the 7mm cartridge. The 7mm was based on the 8mm case.

Who is "Herr Albert"?

IIRC, the Mauser military cartridges were introduced in this order; 8x57, 7.65x53, 7x57, 6.5x55, and 6.5x68.

If the Army Ordinance people had adopted the 7.65x53, or modified it to 7.62x53, they could have skipped both the 30-06 and 7.62x51.

As we are having fun with this, I've often wondered. If the US would have gone with a 7.62x57, what would we have now ? Probably some kind of 318 WR or 9.3x62 derivative? Captdavid

Friedrich Wilhelm Viktor Albert of Prussia, aka Kaiser Wilhelm II.

Well, the 7.62 x 57 still would not have fit in he 99 magazine, so Charles Newton would still probably have made the 300 Savage round. The Ordnance Dept, seeking a lighter more efficient cartridge, would still have started with the 300 Savage. Since it's abrupt shoulder was poor for machine gun feeding (ask Julian Hatcher) and the neck was short and forced bullets to take up valuable powder space, I wager we'd have still gotten the 7.62 x 51.
Mr McNamara would still have let his wonder boys convince him the AR15 was the [bleep], so Mr. Stoner's not so ingenious gas tapper with the camming bolt/bolt carrier design that copied and combined both the Swiss rifles' and the rotating bolt head which locked in the barrel extension just like Winchester had already done.

Anyway, 308 and 1 in 10 rifling were predestined because of the huge investment in Pratt and Whitney boring and rifling machines for the Krag rifles.

Or so that is how I stir the pot.

Just look at the thread title...

Some truths are self-evident.

I've never heard anyone refer to Kaiser Wilhelm as anything but Kaiser Wilhelm.

I owned a 7X57 I made for myself about 22 years ago. I should have never sold it. I used 160 and 175 grain bullets in it for most hunting. It was 100% reliable in function (Made on a 98 Mauser-- Standard Modell) and was also 100% on every animal I shot with it. I never needed 2 shots at anything.

I have not owned another 7mm since I sold it and to be honest, if I ever got another 7mm it would be another 7x57 or a 7-08.
Both shells throw the same bullet at about the same speed at the same pressures from the same barrel lengths. I have never owned a 7-08, but knowing the usefulness of the 7mm Mauser, I have 100% confidence in the 7-08 as well.

I wasn't aware that Charles Newton designed the 300 Savage cartridge.

Indeed.

Ditto.

He was definitely ahead of his time! captdavid

Supposedly Savage did. I personally believe Newton gave them a hand as Mr Savage didn't have any personal experience developing a high velocity round; he paid Newton for the first two.

But, getting back to the Capt David's original post;
30-06 is just more bigger and can throw more bigger bullets. So being American, I think it is more better.

Edit: I'll make the Grizzly Bear argument people who will never see one always make. 7 x 57 can't throw a 220 grain bullet at a hypothetical Grizzly Bear in a hypothetical dangerous situation during a hypothetical backpacking trip on Kodiak Island.

I don't think that Arthur Savage was involved with Savage Arms by the time the 300 Savage was introduced in late 1920.

I've got 2 7X57's; a Remington Rolling Block military and a Brazilian Model 1908 Mauser. Both are a hoot to shoot! I've always wanted a 7X57 sporter, but something always seem to catch my eye before I buy one.

They bought Stevens in 1920, but Arthur Savage still very much ran Savage.

True, but WD Bell took 1100 African elephant with a 7X57 and 175 gr bullets.

I think that you'd have to look long and hard to find nicer 7x57 sporters than Husqvarna 1640 mannlichers, Remington 700 MRs, or Winchester 70 Fwts.

How close to current SAAMI specs is your Remington Rolling Block chamber? The 1902s that I've had were between 0.005" and 0.010" longer between the base and the bottom of the shoulder.

"The 7x57 is more incredible!!"

but not as incredible as a 6.8x57, aka the .270 Ingwe...

Absolutely! This needs to be the next SAAMI cartridge, chambered in a push feed M70 XTR.

hmmmm....

According to the guys in the Savage forum, Arthur Savage was forced out of Savage Arms in 1905, before Charles Newton designed either the 22HP or the 250-3000.

Actually, Bell killed about 800 elephants with the 7X57, or what was referred to as the 275 Rigby. The rest were killed with a 6.5X54 Mannlicher, a 303 British, and a 318 Wesley Richards. He also in one of his books mentioned shooting an 8X57 Mauser. Bell began using the 7X57 because of the reliability of the ammunition, and most likely kept using it because of that reason. What most folks fail to realize about Bell, was that he studied the anatomy of elephants, and was such a good shot, he could place his bullets precisely in the right spot.

When grizzly bear start inhabiting our Florida palmetto thickets, I'll buy a .30-06 and load some 220-gr RNs. Til then...

RM

The pythons'll keep 'em at bay.

Unfortunately, there's some truth to that!!

You have to ask yourself WWJCD?

( What Would Jim Corbett Do?)


















Days right..he'd use the .275..

or his Jeffrey .450/400

WWJO'CD?

WWJO'CWD?

The 7x57 is more incredible than the 270.

It is less incredible than the 30-06.

Yes I read that too.
Thanks for educating me a bit.
According to the company, Arthur struck a deal in 1919 to use an Indian Chief's profile as their logo, which I've read in his bio more than once. Yet, according to that thread he either left or was forced out in 1904 or 1905. That isn't compatible. Maybe the Advertising Dept's poetic license.
I need to read a new version of his life!!

The 7 is a designer cartridge. The 8/98 is the real deal!

Designed to be perfect!!!!!!!!
Captdavid

Attention DJS and other 7x57 fans.

I was in Payson, Arizona this past Monday after leaving the Tonto Basin get-together, and dropped in at Rim Country Guns, 513 S. Beeline Hwy, Payson, AZ 85541 (phone: 928-474-8000).

In the enclosed revolving case where they display their better pre-64 M-70s for sale I spotted a M-70 FWT XTR (pushfeed) in 7x57, in excellent condition. It is identical to the one I own, except a bit nicer.

I honestly didn't ask to see it, for fear that I would buy it. I don't need it and it isn't in the budget right now. Only later did I think to report the find on the 'fire in case one of you fellows is interested. The asking price on the tag was $899, which I believe is negotiable. It is not a consignment. I apologize that now I can't remember if it was scoped or not. I was involved in a conversation at the time and moved on to other things I was interested in.

Also, they had some H-4350 on the shelf, that I haven't seen in a long time. I took their only one-pound jug, but they still have an 8-lb jug on the top shelf priced at $229, if somebody wants it bad enough.

I hope that 7x57 XTR goes to a good home.

Ive been watching for one near home, but they're always in 30-06 or 270. Too boring.
Still kicking myself for not getting a 6.5x57 Featherweight when Winchester went belly up last decade.

Keep it up ya'll...and here all this time I've been thinking of a very old friend LGS who pushed me into taking the USRAC XTR Fwt 7x57 w/fold over factory sights and the original front hood, when all I wanted was get out of a late run NH M70 Classic Fwt 300WSM I picked up trading after 2015's Deer Season and was never gonna shoot. I had only gone into the shop to give it to him for a consignment...so's I could spend so more money on another shiney toy.

Oh Well what are friends for ...to look after their dumber friends I guess Prolly oughta buy him & his lovely sweet wife a steak dinner or sumthin.
Ron

I read in the current edition of RLN that Mule Deer is planning to develop "...a singe, high-BC 7x57 load suitable for all-around big game hunting." Yeah...I'll believe that when I see it!

Well I tried, tongue in cheek, but nobody is seriously downing the old 7. There's got to be a troll or toad who thinks the old 7 isn't the cat's meow.

^^^^^^^^^^

I've not been very successful in hiding my respect and appreciation for the 7X57.

A pretty fair number of deer and antelope died quickly and cleanly from my 7X57's.

It's easy to load and shoot and very effective.

Glad to see that many here at the Fire have had the same experience.

Steve

It does seem to get a lot of respect here on the 'fire. But, ironically, I don't think a single commercial rifle company, with the exception of some of the semi-custom firms (MRC, Dakota etc.), chamber it. Even the European companies that you would think would chamber it - Blaser, Merkel, Sako/Tikka, etc - don't; although they all chamber the 6.5x55, 8x57, and 7x64, among others. And all that in spite of the popularity given it by John B. and his Kilimanjaro, as well as Craig B. and that beautiful "stalking" Ramirez of his.

With all due respect, concerning the 1903 Springfield being based on the M98 Mauser, I must disagree. Considering the design of the M93 Spanish Mauser, I believe the 03 was actually an improved version of that. The Springfield lacks the inner collar and the large ring of the M98. Just my opinion of course.

Perhaps you have a point, but we still had to pay a royalty to the Mauser brothers for copying some facet of their rifles...

The 7X57 is a fantastic cartridge, especially in today's loadings. But I'd probably go the the 7mm-08 today; it fits shorter actions (which saved=s a few ounces).

The new Lipsey offering of the #1A 275 Rigby is a very nice improvement over the older #1A 7x57. They come with a 24" bbl, red pad and rear express sight. A very nice set-up indeed. My only observation is that the comb is a bit high for using the open sights.

None of which are NEARLY as incredible as the 6.5X55...

Does anyone know of a current loading manual that has 7x57 loads for modern actions? I just bought the latest Nosler manual and it has even 175 gr bullets loaded faster in the 7mm08 than the 7x57. Of course, the 7mm08 was shot with a 26” barrel (??? Normal for a 7mm08 right) and the 7x57 in a 22”. But with the 7x57 having 10% more room, I would have expected it to do better with the heavy bullets.

Supercub that24" barrel if the same contour would be a neat improvement. I like my 7x57 but always felt the1a barrels were a bit short.

Very happy with mine but I do need to update the scope from what I had on the shelf to something more trim. I also have a box of 140 gr Woodleighs that I need to play with.



Of course, I did just acquire a NIB Ruger #1A in 6.5x55 so maybe I'm splitting hairs. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Turk1961,

JB's Book of Gun Gack has good, modern load data for the 7x57.

You should get the book. You can thank me later.

http://www.riflesandrecipes.com/product-category/books/rifles-and-handloading/

You guys have me thinking again. I was looking for a light 308. Now I have this Bubba-Swede that has a pitted bore (yes I impulse buy them for under $100). Since I would only have to stock it and can put on my own inexpensive barrel, Hmm. Some will cry sacrilege not to go 6.5 x 55. However I don't think it's a sin to go 275 Rigby.

Well Turk, there is the 4:1 Law...:)

And there is some excellent velocity guidance from the Nosler book. For example, the velocity for a 7mm-08 in 26" barrel could be substituted as a suitable target for a 24" 7-08AI velocity.

The 7mm-08AI and 7x57 are quite similar in case capacity...or more similar, anyway--I doubt you can get an extra 4g from an AI job on the 7-08 case. Thus, the 26" 7-08 velocity results from Nosler could be construed as velocity target for a 24" 7x57.

It could be fairly mild, relative to comparative pressures in a 270 for instance, depending on yer rifle...work up.

Berger sez 21fps loss/gain per barrel inch w/the 7-08 and 24 w/the 7/57.

fwiw...

From what little I know, I believe it's one of the most well balanced cartridges ever developed.

Diameter, bullet weight capabilities, [AND STABILIZING THOSE BULLETS] case capacity, velocity, recoil, efficiency, length, hell, it's got it all.

When you lot are finished sucking each other off you may wish to remember that it is just a cartridge like any other.

touchy!

bit short on empathy this morning, eh? tough nite?

And to be frank I am more interested in why the op continues to post the juvenile bait posts that he has been posting.

What is he up to.

Nah, just finished spray painting the box trailer/cage and am feeling like a miserable mingy bastard, and since I am not game enough to pick on the wife (she-who-must-be-obeyed-or-else) I thought I should bring my ire here.

being a family forum, I didn't want to ask if you hadn't been getting any...:)

Been with my wife over thirty years and with any luck I can continue to escape that wee effort 'til at least june.

Bully!!! Bully!!!

YAY! for Dave in WV.


You know, when these sort of threads come up, I always take them tongue in cheek. Some are way too serious about a deer cartridge when common ones all do the job well.
The majority of posts in these sort of threads is that a certain cartridge is not another cartridge.
That's like saying a hot chick isn't pretty because she isn't blonde, redhead, busty blah blah blah.
She's still pretty folks, she's just not your cup of tea.

I'll second the recommendation of Mule Deer's "Gack" book. But don't forget to look in the Reloading - Big Game forum: Campfire Pet Loads for the information on the 7x57.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4019389/1

Maybe so, but our "boys over there" in France, always referred to him as "Kaiser Bill."

L.W.

Maybe I should have posted :
As Teddy Roosevelt said in agreement, "Bully!!!, Bully!!!"