A recent post from another member here asked advice about purchase of a certain double barrel rifle. Not wanting to hijack that person’s thread, I thought it might be interesting to start a new one soliciting your input on a reasonably-priced dangerous game rifle. Of course, “reasonable” is subjective, but for purposes of discussion let’s say a cost of less than $15k. I’ve not been hunting in Africa but my understanding is that DGR calibers in many countries start at .375, so let’s make that the lower limit. And lastly, given the number of lightly-used rifles on the market, let’s consider both new and used rifles.

Given those constraints, what would you recommend?

If 15K is your limit, I suggest a Verney-Carron without question. I looked at the Merkel-Chapuis-Krieghoff-Heym & VCs before I made my purchase and it was easy for me to pick the VC. The Heyms are superb too, but I don't care for their "notched" receivers and their basic model is very plain looking. Also the VC has the strongest action.

I have a like-new Krieghoff 470 for sale at a great price...$7,995 + $40 shipping, with 2 boxes of Hornady DGS ammo. That's about $1,500-$2,500 below market, even more if you bought at Cabelas or other retailers. I don't think it's ever been fired, and comes with the canvas & leather carry case. The accessories (literature, oil, etc) have not even been opened. PM me your email and I'll send photos.

That is one HELL of a good buy!!!

Jorge, need a back-up for your back-up? :-)

One double is about all I can do right now, until my twin-varmints leave the house, then it's probably another VC in 375FL ir 303 Brit.

I'd love an old British double in 303.

One of my friends has a beautiful WR double in .303, if you would just buy my Bland .577 then I could make him an offer on it. Works for everybody!

That would be a bit of coin, I would think!

Get thee behind me!!!!!

That is a great price.


To the OP: I have a decent amount of trigger time behind a Merkel double and never experienced any trouble with it, although it's never been beaten around the African bush either. It's generally gets a bad wrap when compared with more expensive guns but my sample size of one has been stellar. I will add that mine is purely a range toy, I don't have the confidence in my operating a double that I do with a bolt action. Thus when I bought the Merkel I didn't want the most expensive gun out there.

Bieb's Krieghoff does sound like a good deal. Especially if you want a .470. I have also decided to sell my 450/400 Zoli O&U and think I still have at least a case ( ten boxes) of Hornady factory ammo. both softs and solids and probably another 100 round of brass. $6500 talkes it all.

You are correct about the value. He is 60yrs and it was his dads. Stunning rifle and Not for Sale. But.... it never hurts to dream.

Yes, a WR 303 DR is one to dream about :-)

Jon, many years ago when I lived in Arizona I stopped by a yard sale and met a man walking out with a WR 303 double rifle he had just bought for $250 . He wouldn't even consider a quick doubling of his money ! Fortunatley he left behind a 1903 MS with quite a few boxes of Kynoch 6.5x54 ammo.

I just had to have one at one point and with even more stringent limitations you describe so instead of the entry level 375, mine was a 9.3x74 in a Chapuis. I found in double guns not only the name and model determines price but also what it's chambered in-those in the big classic cartridge generally cost quite a bit more. Even going to the 375 H&H or 375 R jumped the price up a bit.

The Chapuis was probably at the bottom of your dollar range at about 4K and certainly not in a preferred dangerous game cartridge though, no doubt, it's been used that way.

Anyway, it was well made and a whole lot of fun to shoot; took a running buffalo heifer with it at about eighty yards.

Phil, I remember seeing that Zoli in an article or two. May I ask why you are selling it?

For a good read on the topic at hand see Terry Wielands's Dangerous-Game Rifles.

Here's the listing, for anyone that might be interested:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...470-ne-double-rifle.cfm?gun_id=100678822

WOW... That .470 nitro is one pretty piece of steal and wood.

Probably $1,500 to $2,500 under market price.

I think Krieghoff's 375 flange is user adjustable regulation at the muzzle. If that is correct I will probably add one at some point to use with the 270 TSX so I have a better chance of getting it to regulate

I was/am(?) considering carrying it again this spring season, however I am 67 years old and have been carrying my 458 MkX for well over half that time.
Doubles can be unbelievably fast for the second shot, unless you are instinctively reaching for a bolt handle for the second shot !

Phil, I will be 67 this summer, Lord-willing. I can relate completely my friend.

It'd be an interesting class reunion.

Go with the familiar and proven--to you.

Anybody even considered an O/U? (Last time I looked they WERE doubles....).

If you are looking for function and don't care about Pukkah Sahib associations, I'd look at a Valmet. They work. And they can be scoped, if you want or need that.

The only thing I can think negative about them (we're looking at FUNCTION, remember?) is that the bottom barrel is slower to reload than a SxS, assuming you might need more than two tries. Mostly you don't.

9.3x74R.

Phil's Zoli is an O/U. Nice looking rifle, and it apparently shoots very well for him.

Thanks gents, for the good advice thus far. Keep it coming. I had never been in a position to consider a double rifle until recently. Not long ago, I had a chance conversation with one of my former supervisors, and learned of the great hunting in South Africa – and the surprising news of how affordable it was. Africa was always a place for the wealthy few; not someplace I would ever be able to afford. But with the strong dollar, it seems that a decent plains-game hunt can be had for not much more than the cost of a guided elk hunt here in the US. My old boss and his wife had been to South Africa twice and they are already discussing another trip after Cape buffalo. He provided contact information for the PH who seems (via email) like a decent fellow. This was a bit of a game-changer for me; even with airfare and fees, an African hunt might suddenly be within the realm of the possible.

My initial thought was to take my bolt action or a single-shot rifle on a plains game hunt. But not knowing whether post-retirement finances will permit more than one trip, it seems logical to consider adding dangerous game to the menu. That would require a rifle with a bit more punch than I currently own. To me, doing it right means a double rifle; a modern bolt gun just will not do. Most likely it would just be one DG hunt; thereafter I might use it on hogs or “a range toy” as someone here mentioned. Perhaps after a few years it will be sold to its next caretaker, which is why I would like something that would hold its value reasonably well.

But enough rambling. I don’t know how this will ultimately play out, but a hunt which was once unimaginable could be within reach in a few years’ time. Lots of assumptions made (strength of the dollar, political interference with hunting, continued job security and good health, just to name a few) but I am now toying with the idea of purchasing a double rifle in a dangerous game caliber.

JorgeI: I have only heard the name Verney-Carron but had not considered them because the ones which I’ve seen online were well outside my budget. Based on your comments above, I searched used guns and saw this one in .470 NE with spare 12-ga barrel:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=549530152 The shotgun barrels are rifled, which I presume was done to allow for less-expensive practice to take place.

Internet Guru: I’m seeing a few Merkels which are within my budget, but didn’t know how well they stack up, so I appreciate your insights. The few that I have personally handled are solid and the actions seem rather stiff, but perhaps that is because they are new.

458Win: Thanks for the information. My sole experience with an Antonio Zoli has been with one of their flintlocks. It was my favored deer rifle for many years; very accurate but also difficult for which to find spare parts. And I would prefer a SxS double rather than an O/U. Just personal preference.

Biebs, I returned your PM.

The story that O&U's are slower to load is simply a myth as the barrels have completely dropped fully open by the time you can move your hand back to drop two more rounds in.



And you can't do this with any other O&U and unless you have a Wesley Richards you can't do it with a SxS either.

Contact Ken Buch at VC USA, he usually has good deals on previously owned ones. This K gun is a GREAT deal though.

Phil, no Rustoleum on that one?

THAT , is the real reason I offered it for sale. I couldn't make myself paint it

LOL :-)

I have lusted for a double rifle for about a year now since I shot one at a SXS sporting clays shoot. I have looked at the BPE rifles with hammers and Jones under lever. I shoot SXS shotguns so there is no issue there but do I want a big bore BPE and figure out the smokeless powder conversion or an express rifle? It will be mostly a range toy with some deer hunting tossed in. The other and maybe more practical thing is find something like a 303 or 360. I bought a Ruger #1 450-400 NE and that's a fun gun to shoot. The K is a heck of a deal and if it was a 450-400 I'd be all over it.

What to do, what to do the hunt is half the fun.

I saw a pre war Heym in 405Win listed on Guns International. I'm familiar with the cartridge but not the maker. Any thoughts?

Ran into a gentleman who was selling off some of his personal collection. One of these was an older Jeffreys double in .450-400 (he guessed 1920s vintage). Very nicely balanced, locked up solid, and it seemed well-fitted to me (both the seller and I are of similar size and build). He showed me a number of photos where he had used this rifle on past trips to Africa.

The rifle is currently priced at the upper end of my range, but the seller indicated a willingness to negotiate. Given the vintage and the manufacturer, would I be correct in thinking that it would hold its value better than of current manufacture? I would think that the Jeffreys would appeal to both the shooter and the collector market.

It would depend on the price and the condition of the rifle. how are the bores?

If/when one is prepared to make that kind of INVESTMENT on a British double, the seller should agree to a third party inspection (like George Caswell of Champlin Arms) or another reputable double gun dealer. If the seller declines, then PASS. Unless of course you can "steal" it for a ridiculously low price, then spend the coin to restore it.

Butch Searcy's PH model starts at $15,500 according to his web site.

http://www.searcyent.com/new%20field%20grade.htm

The bores are clean and bright; no pitting that I could see.

The rest of the rifle looks very good for its age, with one possible exception. There are three (nicely engraved) pins which pass longitudinally through the bottom of the (boxlock) action. I noticed that one side was flush but the pins stood just a bit proud on the opposite side, and asked the seller whether this was normal. Whereupon he mentioned that they may have drifted a bit, and gave them a couple sharp whacks with a rawhide mallet which seemed to even things out. Not sure whether that is normal for that vintage or if that should be taken as a big red flag.

Thinking out loud here, but my thought process was that perhaps a rifle from one of the manufacturers from the classic period might be more desirable (and thus, more salable) when the time comes to divest and move on. I've been watching Gunbroker and sometimes GunsAmerica for awhile now, and see the same rifles listed for months on end. Even when the starting price drops, they still sit. My conclusion is that the market for these is limited and (as someone mentioned in another post) that the current market is a bit soft; therefore a rifle which appeals both to the collector market and the hunting market may be a better investment.

Thanks. I've heard of Champlin Arms but am not familiar with Mr. Caswell. May have to look into it when the time comes. How would that work -- have the seller ship it to Champlin for appraisal?

There's a PH model in .470 NE listed on GB right now for $7895 and no reserve. Also no bidders. And it's been on there for quite some time. I understand that "new" costs more, but that seems to be a substantial premium. It would seem to make more sense to buy used, unless there's something else in play here which I am missing.

One concern that I would have with any of the smaller companies involves availability of future service. The big firms (Merkel, Krieghoff, Westley Richards, etc) should be suitably staffed to make repairs. What happens when Butch Searcy retires someday? Will there be someone available to repair the rifle? Will the company still exist? I tried to contact Searcy & Co to ask that very question (on a used rifle which I was considering); several phone messages left and emails sent but never returned.

In this case, you would pay for Champlin to have the gun looked over for condition. Do your research with Champlin and other double gun purveyors and see what they are bringing. Also, you might want to post this over on AccurateReloading.com on their doubles forum.

Thanks, JorgeI. For some reason I was unable to view Champlin's website a couple of months ago and thought that they had gone out of business. Perhaps they were updating the site or maybe it was just an electrical gremlin. But now that it's working again, I see the info on Mr. Caswell.

Also went to the Accurate Reloading website that you mentioned; that should provide me with reading for quite some time!

Yep, they are the best site for African Hunting in general and pretty good for double guns too. Seek out a writer over there (he also posts here, albeit infrequesntly( named Cal Pappas. He is very savvy on doubles.

If you don't mind an older hammer gun:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=553319401

If that didn't have that damn underlever I'd buy it today, and I don't need a 470 Nitro.

Here's a good working rifle.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/gun-library/buda-gun-library%7C/pc/103792680/c/105930180/b-searcy-double-rifle-in-470-nitro-express/2150781.uts?destination=%2Fbrowse.cmd%3FcategoryId%3D105930180

here's an interesting contraption. May need some TLC, but a good deal...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=553705235

(not my auction, BTW)

Don't be that way Gunner. Hammers and the Jones underlever are cool. I have two shotguns with them and just bought a Heym with hammers and the Jones in 500 BPE....should give the Taylor some competition.

Hammers, yes, I have a top lever sidelock hammer rifle in 303 British, I prefer those above all others, just can't get by the underlevers, and I've tried dearly.

We NEED to see pics of that hammer Heym.

Damn y'all are old, I'll be 67 in July..

I found it at the Southern SXS shoot last weekend in NC. I found a nice Fox CE straight grip (rare on a Fox) 32 inch first so the Heym just got a deposit and I'll pick it up at the next shoot in June.

Will be looking forward to seeing the pics, must be a real beauty.

I had the double-rifle 'fever' a few years ago. Ended up going the 'conversion' method - J.P Sauer 12ga SxS converted to 450/400 NE 3". Gun shoots and regulates well, but needs some final touches.
One of these days when I decide to fully divest myself of any rifle over .375 bore dia, or with "Magnum" in the caliner nomenclature, it'll find a new home

I just found a Heym in 500 BPE complete with Jones under lever, stalking safeties and external hammers. It's a fun gun to shoot and I'll test her out deer season.

Here is a poor mans double I got to play with last week. Not mine but it sure is a nice piece.





A .577 Nitro Heym

I don't know any poor men like that, nice piece, would that be a Heym Jumbo in 577?

Very nice, bet it shoots well too.

I guess it is actually a 88B large frame in 577 nitro with a few extra options like the elephant lever, case hardening, the sights etc..

So, I'm told.

If you can't afford one (like me) it is awful nice having a friend that shares. At $25 a round he doesn't share too much but a couple of rounds gives you all you really want.

Is there still a magazine that emphasizes double guns?

Double Gun Journal

DGJ is more geared to shotguns and single shot rifles. They do have some double rifle info but it isn't much.

Nitro Express is a forum that's geared to big bore rifles and there is a lot of double gun info there but getting registered on it is a pain in the azz, at least it has been for me.

Gunner, the Heym Jumbo is a sidelock rifle, usually $50K or better. It used to be the only way to get a Heym in 577, but now they have the large boxlock action, which would bring down the price considerably, I would think.

A Heym Jumbo in 577 is my dream double....that or a Beretta 455 EELL.

Okay, Thanks Biebs, a 50K Jumbo in 577 and a 75 lb Ele ought to smooth out 200 pretty well.

How did this shoot?

Supersized me, I don't have a photo but may be able to get it. My buddy had both rounds he fired touching at 50 yards in the bull.

I just fired it once and hit just outside the bull.

I don't know if it was because of shooting off stixs but the recoil comes directly back. I had my left hand on the stixs and not the rifle and that was a mistake, don't know what I was thinking.

Awesome. Did he buy this rifle?

Wow, that's quite a rifle!

Yes he did.

Awesome. Chris told me he had someone pretty interested in buying this one. This was my rifle. Glad your Freind is liking it!

Oh that is awesome, he is taking to Namibia in October.

Shoots very well.

That should work nicely on a Jumbo!

I'll hopefully send you a pic when he gets back.

The 577 rules...my favorite caliber!

The 750 gr Barnes Banded Solids and TSX's at a regulated to the sights 2068 fps with 135 gr H-4350 are indeed powerful shooters Biebs, haven't hit any big game with them yet, but they'd have to be most decisive!

Yup, a more powerful gun would have to come with wheels on it!!!

And a Lanyard Rope.

Jerry, I didn't know you had a 577! what brand?

For your laugh of the day here is this ole Kansas boy on 577

[img]http://vid293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/southwind_hunter/IMG_0611%201_zpsb4d8cpti.mp4[/img]

Got a big V/C 577 Nitro off of Biebs about 5 years ago, it's a very lovely rifle Jorge, with it's 26" barrels, it swings like a fine [HEAVY] bird gun.

Sweet! I didn't know! I'm contemplating either a 375FL or a 303. I COVET yours

This would be the ultimate .577:

A Westley Richards belonging to Stewart Granger

Thanks Jorge, I'll be looking towards a 375 Flanged as I age, I believe it to be effective for all game hunting without the brutal recoil of the heavies.

Damn cool piece there pacecars!

Awesome rifle pacecars!

More on Stewart Granger's double:

JorgeI,

Thanks for posting this, very interesting. I remember "The Last Safari and of course King Soloman's mines. I also remember he was the fiancier who hired the "Wild Geese".

It seems without any supporting data that there were a lot more hunting/shooting leading men during this era than now for sure.

I think that guy would have a better experience if he grabbed the barrels instead of the sticks.

Definitely, I had my left index finger across the top of the barrels and hand grasp on the sticks. The finger had no affect.

Next time that guy will have firm hold on the forearm and probably off hand. I don't particularly like shooting from sticks if I don't have to.