Is anybody using a 280 ackley improved for long range, or has anyone used one in the past?

I'm just now getting to know my latest project: a 280AI on a pre 64 M70 action, 24" pac-nor barrel and rimrock stock, so far so good...not sure if I'm a true longrange shooter, but I do like the round thus far.

I was asking because I just got mine a few weeks ago 280ai on a 700 action 24" broughton #4 barrel with a bansner stock just past break in and is shootiing less than 1/2" groups at 100 yards, I will try some 500 yard plus shots soon I hope.

I have one at the gunsmith right now getting rechambered, stampped, and trigger adjusted. It is a Ruger M77 MKII. It will be my backup deer rifle and the if I ever go out west one day gun.

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I am -mine is a rem. 700 adl -hs precision stock -broughton 28" #4 throated for 162gr hornady amax - muzzle break -6.5x20-50 zeiss conquest -burris signature series rings w/ 10moa inserts.
It was built by Nathan Dagley of Center , N.Dakota.
Working out of town right now and haven't had much of a chance to do load developement ,shoots 140nbt's 3/4" @100yds. off of harris bipod.

I've had real good longrange luck using RL-22 and 25 with 160's and 162's in my APS [Kirby Allen] built 280AI.
It's a great western open range rig!
FWIW
wes in AZ

I just had a 280 AI built by GA Precision. the specs:

Trued 700 LA
Manners MCST stock
jewell trigger
Shilien Select Match 1/8 twist throated for the 180 VLD

This rifle is a tack driver. Cant wait for hunting season.

My load is 56.5 grains of RL 22
Nosler Ackley Brass
CCI Benchrest Primer
180 Berger VLD

Myself and shootone have shot this out to 1k. It really stick em in there.

Nope, got a 7mm RM that will do everything a .280 Rem AI will do, and then some.

I am in process of building a 6.5mm-06AI. Just prdered the Krieger barrel yesterday and am shipping my stock and action to them today.

It's always interesting to read how adding 50 fps to the standard .280 (or 100 fps to the standard .270) results in a 1000-yard rifle.

Looneism?!?! (SP)

Perhaps "incremental loonyism"?

Plus P....<g>

Dober

Finally had a chance to go beyond 100 yds. with mine this AM, and can say with certainty that all the bullets fired at the 500 yard target made it the whole way there. Musta been the "Dober Dotz" ! (grins)

Hopefully they work out well for you, my opinion is it don't get any easier than dotz!

Dober

Well Mark, all you've said about them was true on this first trial, muchas gracias. I've been too busy building a new house to put in much trigger time lately but hits were easy and the dotz tracked in both my .280AI and my .223.

"Bend" on the other hand, has been shooting alot and didn't seem to need no stinkin' dotz!

Doesn't look like they'll line up with the trajectory of my .257Roy though....

They'll prolly linke up with your Roy also, just in 200yd increments with a 300yd zero!

Obviously not really, but still pretty damn cool.......

BTW, my .280AI should be done in about a month. I can't wait!

I can't wait to see how that rig turns out. You are definitely doing it right!

I have a M700 trued action, Tubb Recoil Lug, Hart 24" #5 Fluted barrel pillar bedded into a LSS stock. Scope is a Leupold Mark 4 4.5-14x40mm.

My go to load is the 160 gr AB with RL 22 and Federal GM215M primers. MV is 3000 fps and accuracy at 500 yds is .5 MOA.

JD338

Hmm, looking through Nosler 6 I finally picked up this past week. I see the top 7 Rem Mag load with a 160gr Accubond at 3077 using 72 grains of Magpro. 280AI tops out at 3045 using 59.5 grains of Viht N560.

12.5 more grains of powder to gain 32 fps. Impressive!!


Seriously though, I'm curious, what makes a 1000 yd round? 7RM, 280AI, 6.5-284, WSM's... all are damn near ballistic twins.

So are the 300WM, RUMS', Weatherby Mags, 338 Lapua and 50 BM the only 1000 yard rounds?

In africa last september, a red hartebeest fell one shot at 500 meters (550 yards for metrically impaired). About 5 minutes after I also clean missed a shorter shot at same animal at 350 meters across an open valley . but that was when he moved same time I shot. THere really was no way to get across a valley with three inches of grass cover... and we had stalked a mile plus for the shot...

it was in the words of the PH: "as good a shot as any this year".

140 NAB, 62 grains Re22, CCI 200, Nosler ackley brass. chronos at 3200 mas or menos.

Interestingly, the 7mm Weatherby tops out at 3197 in the same manual.

I think it has about the same physical case capacity gain over the 7RM as does the 280 over the AI...indicating pressure differences are the issue, as 3-4 grains in a slightly larger case does not net that much. The representative RL25 loads show a spread of 6 grains...

Would suspect same for the AI vs 7RM comparison with the 160s.

The 7RM to the 280AI is a DD to D-cup comparison, both impressive but noticeable differences are perceivable.

The AI may not have much over the 280 or the 270 but if long was my concern, Nosler makes brass...

FWIW...

If you look a little more closely you will see the .280 Rem AI loads are from a 26� barrel while the 7mm RM loads are from a 24� barrel. Subtract anywhere from 50fps to 80fps, perhaps more, from the .280 for a valid comparison. You will also have to note that different powders were used, making the difference in charge weights pretty much an invalid comparison.

Next, for a more apples-to-apples comparison, let�s compare the same powder using 160g bullets. Since I have and use both and Nosler lists both for both cartridges, let�s use Reloder 22 and IMR7828.

.280 Rem AI
3035fps, 60.5g Re22, 101% Load Density
3043fps, 61.5g IMR7828, 101% Load Density

7mm RM
3015fps, 64.0g IMR7828, 85% Load Density
3058fps, 63.0g Re22, 85% Load Density

If we subtract 75gfps from the .280 velocities to adjust for the shorter barrel, it looks like this:
2960fps, 60.5g Re22
2967fps, IMR7828

If we look at pressure, Hodgdon lists the following:

.280 Rem AI
2849fps, IMR7828, 61,300PSI

7mm RM
2868fps, IMR7828, 58,200 PSI

Looking at all the Hodgdon 160g loads for the two cartridges, it is readily apparent that the .280 Rem AI is running slightly behind the 7mm RM in terms of velocity but at significantly higher pressures. Put another way, loading the 7mm RM to the same pressure as the .280 Rem AI will yield higher velocities.

I don�t know what SAAMI MAP is for the .280 Rem AI or if there even is a SAAMI standard for that cartridge. I do know that its 61,000 PSI for the 7mm RM. I have Rugers chambered in both the 7mm RM and .300 WM and see no reason not to load the 7mm RM to the 64,000 PSI level of the .300 WM. When that occurs the 7mm RM easily outdistances the .280 Rem AI.

By the way Vihta Vouri lists the 7mm RM at 3114fps with a 160g bullet and N560 powder, the same powder used for the Nosler .280 Rem AI load you referenced. That�s 3114fps for the 7mm RM, again from a 24� barrel, compared to an estimated 2949fps for the .280 Rem AI with a 24� barrel. Douing the math, that�s a difference of 154fps.

The .280 Rem AI is a good cartridge, but it can�t keep up with the 7mm RM when other factors like pressure and barrel length are equal.

I noticed the 26" barrel on the 280AI after I posted.
Do you think 75fps is an accurate decrease though for matching the barrel length?

According to this formula a 30-06 case loses 39 fps when shortened from 26" to 24". Wouldn't a .280AI be affected closer to that number?

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/October05.htm

I listed two different powders because they were listed as the top velocity charge for each cartridge. I wasn't sure comparing same powders would be fair since they are different cases. However I agree that comparing the charge weight on two different powders is misleading, I was really just using a little hyperbole there to have a little fun.

If the formula I referenced is correct, it's still not that much difference between the 7RM and the 280AI when one is discussing long range. At least to my thinking. Sure the 7 RM will top out a little higher, but is that small amount enough to pass on a shot at any distance comparing one to the other?

This is at 500 yrds.? Not 100 yrds.?

The numbers I�ve seen indicate an extra inch can add anywhere from 20fps to 50fps to a load � I simply picked a number in the middle. The article you reference shows a couple of things that make sense, 1) the higher the velocity, the greater the difference, and 2) the shorter the barrel the greater the difference. If you don�t like 75fps, the number I chose, the article you reference shows 48fps for a 7mm RM, 24� to 26�, with MV of only 2885fps from a 24� barrel. So, to keep the math easy, let�s call it 50fps instead of 75fps.

That means the adjusted ,280 Rem AI 160g/N560 load would run 2985pfs, still 129fps slower than the Vihta Vouri 7mm RM 160g/N560 load. If we assume a BC of .31 (160g AccuBond), the 7mm RM has a 75 yard advantage in terms of velocity and energy.

The original question was :

to which I answered �Nope, got a 7mm RM that will do everything a .280 Rem AI will do, and then some.� The fact is that the 7mm RM will beat the 280 everyday in all weights and when it comes to 175�s its 2970fps vs 2828fps per Nosler 6th, a 142fps difference before adjusting for the longer .280 Rem AI barrel and 192fps after doing so (using 50fps as the adjustment factor).

I�m not claiming the .280 Rem is a bad cartridge. Nor am I claiming the difference in capability will make a big difference in the field, as in most cases it certainly will not. Neither one would be my choice for high volume long range target work - I�m building a 6.5-06AI for that - but for the occasional long range hunting shot and using the best loads in each, the 7mm RM will add about 75 yards to what the .280 Rem AI can do in terms of velocity and energy.


Whether that extra 75 yards is important or not is up to the individual shooter. Of course the 7mm RM can always be downloaded to .280 Rem AI velocities...

Most of the 280AI data in Nosler #6 is simply reprinted data from #5, (24" barrel). The only data they re-shot with the 26" tube is that for the 140's and 160's, (I presume because the Fail Safe bullets were dropped from production.)

It is primarily the 160's that are under discussion.

Since there isn't alot of factory chamber 280AI pretty hard trying comparing 7mag to 280AI. My 280AI dosen't have a barrel that match either Hodgdon or Nolser data I guess on paper data you might do it.

The .280 AI is a SAAMI cartridge (submitted by Nosler a couple of years ago) and the pressure limit is either 64,000 or 65,000 psi, I can't recall right now.

The SAAMI limit for the 7mm Remington Magnum is 61,000. This is because the 7mm RM tends to show wider pressure variations with any given load than many other cartridges. For instance, in a typical .30-06 or .300 Winchester Magnum load the range of pressures in a 10-shot string might be 5000 psi. But a 7mm RM often shows a 10,000 psi variation between individual shots in 10-shot string.

SAAMI maximums are not just based on an average, but individual shots. They set the average at a place where any individual round won't be over a certain level--the reason the average SAAMI pressure limit for the 7 RM is only 61,000.

Primarily, but you moved to 175's and still subtracted barrel length, so I thought it might be worth pointing out that not all the #6 data was shot from the 26" barrel.

OK, here�s data from Nosler #5 for the .280 Rem AI and the 7mm RM, all from 24" barrels. Draw your own conclusions.

140g @ 3340fps, 67.5g Re22, 7mm RM
140g @ 3196fps, 63.0g Re22, .280 Rem AI
===============================
+ 144fps, 4.5g powder, 7mm RM

150g @ 3248fps, 63.0g IMR4350, 7mm RM
150g @ 3107fps, 63.0g IMR7828, .280 Rem AI
===============================
+141fps, same powder charge, 7mm RM

160g @ 3112fps, 79.5g H870, 7mm RM
160g @ 3058fps, 63.0g Re22, 7mm RM (Since H870 is no longer available)
160g @ 2963fps, 61.0g N165, .280 Rem AI
===============================
+149fps, plus 18.5g, 7mm RM (H870)
+95fps, 2.0g powder, 7mm RM (Re22)

175g @ 2970fps, 62.5g Re22, 7mm RM
175g @ 2828fps, 58.5g IMR7828, .280 Rem AI
===============================
+142fps, 4.0g powder, 7mm RM



Another comparison that could be made from Nosler #6:

160g @ 3046fps, 61.5g Re19, 7mm RM
160g @ 3045fps, 59.5g N560, .280 Rem AI
===============================
+1fps, 2.0g powder, 7mm RM

Or, subtracting 50fps from the .280 Rem AI velocities to adjust for barrel length:

160g @ 3046fps, 61.5g Re19, 7mm RM
160g @ 2995fps, 59.5g N560, .280 Rem AI
===============================
+51fps, 2.0g powder, 7mm RM

The point here being that you do not need to burn and extra 12.5g powder in the 7mm RM if matching .280 Rem AI velocities is desired.

Vihta Vuori lists the 7mm RM at 3114fps with a 160g and 73.9 N560 powder, for 69fps better than the 3045fps .280 AI load you cite, albeit with 14.4g more powder in this particular case. Again, the 7mm RM will do anything the .280 AI can do, and then some.

While I�m not claiming that 69fps is any great difference, especially at 14.4g additional powder, the loads above show three 7mm RM loads producing an additional 140fps+ with 0-4.5g powder using bullet weights of 140g, 150g and 175g. At 160g the difference was only 95fps but the additional powder charge was only 2.0g Re22 as well.

It only makes sense to assume your comment about having to burn an extra 12.g was to suggest the 7mm RM was less economical than the .280 Rem AI. I�ve already shown it isn�t necessary to burn that much powder to get better performance, but what about the rifles themselves?

The 7mm RM is available as a standard chambering from most manufacturers and at any given time there is a wide variety of used 7mm RM available due to its long popularity. The .280 Rem AI a different story, however, and Nosler is the only company I know that is chambering production rifles for it. As a result a good 7mm RM can be had for as little as $300 while the Nosler comes in the �Custom� model with a list price of $3,995.00 or the �Custom 48� model with a list price of $2,795. Gunbroker currently has one active auction for a Nosler Custom 48 in .280 Rem AI with a �Buy now� rice of $2,595.00. One could, of course build a custom .280 Rem AI rifle for much less, but the chances of finding a used one are pretty slim.

Let�s see... $2595 - $300 = $2295. For the economy minded, like yourself apparently, that�s a pretty steep price to pay to save 12.5g of powder or about $0.04 per shot at current powder prices. One would only need to shoot about 59,776 rounds in a Nosler rifle to break even...

How about factory ammo availability? 7mm RM ammo is available everywhere, for as little as $19 a box. Ammo for the .280 Rem AI is pretty much limited to Nosler at $55 to $58 a box with only two loads available, a 140g AccuBond and a 160g Partition. Of course with factory ammo you only care about the cost of the box and the 7mm RM wins by a landslide.

Shoot the .280 Rem AI to save money? Surely you jest...

Coyote,
Good post. Here is some recent "real world" velocities from some load development and work at the range in the past week.
280AI 24" Barrel Model 28 NULA. 62.9gr N165 140 TTSX 3140 fps.
7MM Rem Mag Sako 75 24" Spencer 71gr IMR 7828 140 TTSX 3320 fps.
The 7MM is throated a little deeper than most and can stand a little more powder. Looks like the 140 in a 280 AI slows down at least 50fps for the 2" of barrel (26" Wiseman) in Nosler #6. Will be working with both rifles and will have more data next week. Don't think the Ackley is a bargain in any sense compared to a 7MM RM except that it burns a little less powder and is a neat looking cartridge.
Thanks for the data in your post

Dave

In addition to nosler, cooper, dakota and kimber also chamber rifles in 280AI.

RaceTire/Coyote: Good posts.

A lot of this conversation leaves a huge gap because no one knows what pressures they are actually running,and if we add in the tremendous variations in barrel/chamber/throat dimensions,comparisons between the two cartridges becomes increasingly cloudy.

At the end of the day,over the broad range of rifles,and keeping things as equal as possible the 7RM will always be the faster cartridge,and easier to get higher velocities with because it HOLDS MORE POWDER.

I can build,tomorrow, a 7RM that will show the velocities obtainable from a 7 Weatherby(the 280 AI boys sorta leave that cartridge out of the comparison mix because it easily outruns the 280AI);yet the 7 RM has about the same capacity as the Weatherby,and throated the same, will do what the Weatherby does,......which is,be faster than a 280AI,and the margin will increase as we get to heavier bullets.

Conversely, I can build a 7RM so dumbed down that a 280 AI will likely beat it.

I'll repeat what I said before;someone should take a 280AI,work up to max at a given pressure level,and then rechamber to 7RM and load to the same pressures. I suspect they'll find that the 7RM is faster at the same pressure levels,simply because it holds more powder.

Contrary to what many may think, the 280AI is not spot news,has been around for decades now,and a couple of friends of mine messed with it years ago,and reported results. They don't use it today and think the hoopla over it is sort of funny.I never got involved with it due to having loaded,chronographed and hunted with the 280 and the 7RM since the 70's,and considered the 280AI not worth the bother,the same way I don't understand the 25/06 AI while we have the 257 Weatherby.In both cases, the magnum hulls give you the real improvement over the standard cases without loading to the gills,and still keeping powder consumption and recoil at manageable levels.

Good though the 280AI may be(it IS a good cartridge), if I'm gonna run around with a 30/06-length action and a 24" barrel,I'll take the 7RM everytime.

While not in the cards right now I have toyed with the idea of building a 280 AI. I imagine it comes down to how toying you want to do when you can buy an off the shelf round that will do the same thing!

Thanks - I didn't know anyone else was making production .280 Rem AI rifles. Here are the prices I found:

$1,595 and up, Cooper
$1,312, Kimber

Could not find a .280 Rem AI on the Dakota web site using the "search by caliber" feature.

Still, for the economy minded, the 7mm RM is the better choice.

Bob,

Stop making sense,it is messing up all my preconceptions.

I have a custom 280 AI,and a custom 7mm Weatherby,both on Remington actions with 24 inch Barrels.

I can get 160 grain bullets to 3150 fps in the Weatherby,I can get 140 grain bullets to about 3200 fps in the 280 AI.

So there is no question a Magnum(properly throated) is more gun.

But here is the rub,I need a muzzle break to make the magnum as comfortable to shoot as the 280 AI.

The 280AI does gives us very good long range performance with a recoil level that is pretty much in the class of a 30-06.

The 280 AI tends to be super accurate as well,perhaps since probably 90% of the rifles out there in 280AI have custom barrels and chambers. Whether they would be just as accurate in 7mm Mag is open to debate.

As a practical matter most people are better off with the 7mm Rem Mag,rifles,brass,and ammo are generally avaiable anywhere that sells any of the above.

But a guy who handloads and wants a super accurate custom for long range hunting of everything from antelope to elk can do quite nicely with a 280 AI.

It falls in the tiny gap right between a 270,a 280, and a 7mm Mag and it is different in a cool sort of way. What could be better than that?

Britt: Oh I never said the 280 was not good;clearly that would be a bit intellectually "dishonest" Since I like and have used cartridges on either side of it,I have a pretty fair idea of its' capabilities.

I'm taking issue with the narrow issue that it is as fast as the magnum-jugged 7mm's; that's all.

And when making a choice between it and say a 7 RM and a Weatherby,I'll just take the bigger case,get the fractional increase in vel,and not worry about whether or not I'm leaning on things to get there.

There seems to be persistent myth that runs through the noodles of rifle loonies, here and elsewhere; that a smaller case can "equal",all things being the same , the potential velocity of a larger case.This is simply untrue.Many times the smaller case can come close, or pressures can be run up in the smaller case so that it "looks" as good...but IME across the board,it can't be done.

IME the 7RM put up in a good rifle,and given the TLC heaped on most 280AI customs, will be just as accurate. I generally find the 7RM a comfortable rifle to shoot,which is one reason I've been a 7mm fan for many years.

When I built my latest 7 cal backpack rifle, I went with 280AI. Why? Because I got a good deal on a very nice stainless M700 action with a standard bolt face. If I had found a magnum action first, it would have been a 7mm Wby. They're both great cartridges.

RickF -

That is probably the best reason for choosing the .280 Rem AI.

I'm building a 6.5mm-06AI for much the same reason - the Interarms mark X Action I had to work with was a standard (.30-06) size and I didn't want to mess with the bolt face and rails to build a .264 Win Mag.

To be candid, though, I have to admit that it would have been cheaper to sell the Interarms action ad buy a .264 win Mag. The problem was I still woudn't have had the rifle I wanted, which includes a heavy match-grade, fluted, stainless barrel , trued action face, lapped lugs, pillar and glass bedding, custom engraving, etc. Sometimes it isn't about saving money.

Yep, I'm not debating anything here, just pointing out that not all the #6 data was shot with a 26" barrel. Guess I should have been more clear about that and saved you the trouble of digging up more data!

Bob,
Doc has it in the right perspective. It's another neat cartridge. I have been playing with both the 280AI and 7RM as mentioned in my previous post and am finding that since the 7 Mag is throated deep it looks like a guy might get all the 7828 in the case it will hold and still allow a bullet to seat without too much pressure or at least no mechanical signs of too much.. I can do that with the 280AI but it won't hold much over 64gr of powder with a 140 in it and the 7 seated long for the deep throat will hold mid 70's and it looks like 3400 fps is a real possibility with a 140. Like you mentioned 7 Weatherby velocities if the chamber and throat are right which for me is a pleasant surprise.
I like the 280AI in the NULA. Chambers a round well and shoots very accurate and it's another neat cartridge. Hope to get out if it's not too hot tomorrow and ring both of them out a little more.


Dave

Dave: Good luck with it;it's another good cartridge along the same lines as a 270 or 280,and suited to the same purposes.

Which is why the best 280 AI may be the 7mm SAUM .

Well, GN, it sure could be! 'Cept they never chambered a M70 for it....

Bob,
Got out this evening and it was a little humid but a great evening to shoot and I even had time to set up the Chrony. Here is what the NULA 280 Ackley Model 28 w/24" barrel did.
140 TTSX Barnes 63.5g N165....... 3100, 3153, 3136, 3119.
140 Nosler BT 60g IMR 4831....... Err, 3154, 3133, 3102
Both loads grouped under .500" @ 100 yards with no signs of pressure. Nosler Brass and Federal 210M primers.

Same range session 7MM Remington Magnum 25" Spencer Barrel
140 TTSX Barnes 71g IMR 7828 .....3235, 3279, 3275, 3289, 3258
Norma Brass and CCI Magnum primers
New lot of powder. Older Tin can container to the new round plastic container. Gave up about 40fps from the last range session and the old lot of powder. No pressure signs. Gonna go up in powder and see where it tells me to stop. Group size was in the 2's.
I don't think there is much more in the 280 but I'm thinking there is in the 7MM. With that being said I think I'll get real friendly with both rifles and see if I can find something to try them out on this fall.
The real thrill for me today was my 14 year old shooting his Tika T3 in .223 off of a Harris Bipod and shooting under an inch @100 all evening.

Dave

Dave:I would say those are very good velocities and accuracy from both,and at least with the 7RM,within my "comfort zone". Both are very good things,and both will work real well on any task suited to them.

Your 280AI velocities are about 50-70 fps faster, on average, than what I have gotten from the 280's I've shot with RL22 and 140 gr bullets.

We pay our money and we take our picks.

I have been there pushing the 7RM to 3300 with the 140,and am honestly happy at the velocities you're getting with the 140's at present.

By analogy,the 7 Dakota I am working with does 3375 with the 140 AB and I am certainly no better off than you,and the BIG difference between,say, the Dakota and 7RM is that the Dakota "easily" does what the 7RM does at max,and more;just as the 7RM does what the 280AI does at max,and more.The "constant" is the greater powder capacity of the larger case,which is my only real point.....a smaller case can only get the same velocity as a bigger case if the smaller case is loaded to higher pressure,all other things being as equal as they can.There is no getting around this that I know of.

Glad you son is doing well with the 223....I love shooting mine!

Come on, The 280 AI and the 7 Rm are both great. They both have there pros and cons.

The 7 Rm can be pushed faster.

The 280 AI is more efficent.

The 280 AI is not belted. A plus to some. Brass WILL last longer in the 280AI.

I have a 280 AI and it is fantastic. I built it to shoot longe range. And I love it. I also have a 7 RM that is a lightweight, It is a good gun built for two entirely diffrent purposes.

If I had to pick one. Hands down the 280 AI is the winner.And lets not forget this catridge does not need fireforming anymore. Both cartrides will be around for ever.

Yeah, I think we established that.We were discussing which one was faster....

It's a shame the first 8 post dealt with the 280AI from there it was about 7mag vs 280AI.

Roper,
I have shot my 280AI out to 300 yards on a couple of occassions if that is considered long range. The way it performed was good and the trajectory was as I remember pretty flat. I was about 1 3/4" high at 100 with a 140 Nosler BT @ 3100fps or there about and it took one click up on the scope to get the point of impact in the X ring on a 6" splatter bull.
I think the thread has ran so long because the discussion has been very friendly and laid back and there have been a few wrinkles thrown in along the way. With that being said as soon as the weather straightens out and we get a few dry days so I can cut the bottoms on my farm I'll be able to stretch the 280AI out to 500 yards and give all a report on the results. Hopefully we are only about a week away.
Good Shooting!!

Dave

Don't mean to get into a contest but orginal question was "Is anybody using a 280 ackley improved for long range, or has anyone used one in the past?". This is a LR hunting forum.

Some of the earlier post was about using 1/8 twist barrel with 180gr VLD Berger Hunting bullets. That all ended when somone decided the 7mag was better than the 280AI. I shoot a Kreiger barrel 280AI as I said shame we didn't talk more about the 280AI.

Roper,
A 280AI chambering a 180 Berger VLD would be a special deal. With the bullet ogive of the 180 Berger and trying to chamber a rifle to seat that thing just right in the neck would make it a little different but that would be one bad piece if a guy could get that 180 out the muzzle about 3000 fps. 26" tube and lots of something pretty slow might get it done.
The NULA I shoot in 280AI seems to be pretty accurate. It likes N165 (thanks Tim in TN) and IMR 4831 awful well. I've been messing with some 120 TTSX's but cannot seem to get them up to speed and nearly as accurate as a 140 in almost any flavor. Not sure but I think the barrel on mine is a 1 in 10. Need to confirm that.
62.9g of N165 or 60g of IMR 4831 behind any 140 is around 3140 and shoots real well especially for such a light rifle. What does yours like??

Dave

Try some H4350 with the 120 grain bullets. It should deliver both speed and accuracy.

HBB,
Thanks for the suggestion. I was thinking after trying some slower powders that maybe with the lighter bullet the gun would like a little faster burning powder. I'll give some H4350 a try.

Dave

Dont know why your trying to figure out which one is faster. The 7RM is faster. If you stay with safe loads(the same pressure) The 7Rm is faster. It has more case capacity!! DUHHHH!!

Steve Timm turned me onto the 120 grain H4350 load when I built my .280AI.

I am running 61.0 grains (Near Max. so work up to it slowly) of H4350 with the 120 grain Nosler BT, Federal 215 primers, and fireformed RP brass. I get 3323 fps out of a 23 inch barrel and sub 1/2 inch groups.

The 120 Bt flat lays deer out.

There is no replacement for displacement...

Bob, you just can't make some of this stuff up!

Nice load but pretty slow compared to what a 7mm RM will do.

Hillbilly,
Thanks for the load data. I was wondering about where to start and checked the thread and your post answers the question. I have been workong with a box of 120 TTSX's. I think I'll start them out around 59g @ .050" back and try 210M's and see what takes place. 3300 and change (when the workup is done) would be nice especially if I am as happy with the load and it's accuracy as you are. Sure hope my rifle likes it.

Dave

Actually I believe I asked the original question sparking the debate between the .280 AI and 7RM, and it was not about which one was faster.

Obviously the 7RM has more case capacity and is going to be faster, the question I posed was whether the 7RM was that much faster, as was inferred, that it was a 1000 yard rifle while the .280AI allegedly was somehow deficient.

The issue was whether the 7RM was as efficient as the .280AI and whether the marginal performance increase was worth the extra powder and recoil.

MuleDeer put up some very good information which I would have thought would have quieted the argument. The fact that was overlooked by the 7RM fans that the .280AI has a higher SAAMI pressure limit than the 7RM and according to MD, the fact that the 7RM was somewhat limited in going higher by a wider pressure variation.

Undetoured, the 7RM fans apparently ignored all that and continued on with the nonexistent argument that this was a velocity debate alone. In fact we see in the post quoted above that the 7RM fans still want to limit the .280AI to 7RM pressure.

The 7RM is faster. If you stay with safe loads(the same pressure) The 7Rm is faster. It has more case capacity!! DUHHHH!!

Duhhhh!! indeed.

There must be a special fan club for the 7RM. Although a great cartridge it has attained mythical status far beyond reality, it is the cartridge that as Nigel Tufnel put it.. "Ours is better, it goes to 11".

Great stuff, carry on fellas.

Coyote,
I have both and they are two totally different animals. 120's in my 7RM is not an option. Throats way to deep, Besides with the case capacity of the 7 Mag it's better suited for heavier bullets anyway.
Spicing up the thread with the comparison doesn't bother me and adds other things to discuss but I think all of us know that case capacity trumps type of caliber in this case especially, Trouble is I don't think there is any way I can chamger 7 Mag brass in my 280 Ackley.

Dave

That load in my 24" rifle clocks 3370 fps. I use WW nickel brass and CCI200's. Accuracy is good, but my 9-twist rifle prefers the heavier bullets. The 120 V-Max and B.Tip will do 3/4", the 140's and 150's will go half-inch or better.

I started at 59.0 grains and worked up in 1/2 grain increments until the accuracy got to where I liked it.

I look forward to seeing your results.

My rifle is a 1-9 twist (Shilen SS #3) and it doesn't like 140 grain bullets (about 1MOA ) but loves the 150's (Sub 1/2 inch just like the 120's)

I have read all of the posts and agree with some and have reservations about others. I will say that my Rem. 700 Sendero, rebarreled from 25-06 to 280AI, truly is a shooter. It sports a 26", SS, Pac Nor bbl. It has a hollad QD brake, very loud, that reduces recoil to nearly nothing. This bbl. has not been glass bedded but the Sendero stock, HS Precision, supports the action and recoil lug nicely. I load 56.0gr. of IMR4831 in Norma cases that are neck turned and completely prepped. I load Nosler 140gr. BT and Hornady 139gr. SST with same powder drop. This rifle has the trigger lightened to 2#. I have campaigned this rifle at competition egg shoots, 200 and 300 yds. It is classified as a custom rifle with a Leupold 6.5-20 scope. It does all that I ask it to do. As long as I do my part, of course. Muzzle velocity is right at 3000 fps. No, this is not blistering speed. But when I have been in the shoot offs against 6BR bench rest rifles, who cares about speed. Accuracy is the criteria. My 280AI is one tack driven machine. Its' nick name is "Schutzenboominlouder". Yes, it is one noisy rig! Good 'nuff! Plus, I have shot 'yotes at better than 500 yds. that never heard the shot. Nor did they complain about not being dead enuf. Boominlouder speaks, 'yote takes a dirt nap! This rifle is not a very comfortable rig to haul around in the veld. But, when I want something to reach out and touch 'em I always go back to my 280AI. You can discuss muzzle velocity, manufacturer quality, bullet BC and SD all day. If ya' gotta have a 280AI, just go for it. I did and truly enjoy shootin' my rig. Is it better than a 7 mag? Don't really know and frankly that is not an issue with me. I wanted a 280AI and I had Darrel Holland put this rig together for me. It shoots, I like it, nuff said!

FB,

Your post has some merit but the thing that sets folks off - me included - is the fact that ~ every other month someone posts their 280 AI data and it magically is faster than the 7mm RM. The latest Nosler does no justice to the issue either. They list 280 AI data that really pushes the 7mm RM. Compare the 280 AI data with the 7 SAUM - they are ballisitic twins except, I'd likely give the SAUM a grain or so advantage, plus the 280 AI data was shot from a 26" barrel.

I love the 280 - been shooting one since 1981-82. It is a wonderful cartridge. But it is still has 10-15 grains less case capacity than the 7mm RM. To imply that the 280 in any variation somehow approaches the 7mm RM is a bit far fetched. I'd also suggest looking at the 7mm RM data - most of it is 58-59,000 PSI - still well short of the 61K SAAMI pressure.

For normal everyday lifting I love the 280, but I admit to being a full fledge 7mm Rm looney as well. Interestingly, I bought both a 280 and 7mm RM in tang saftey Ruger's within 1 year of each other in the early 1980's. Still have both of them, although the 280 needs a new barrel but is semi-retired.

I am not trying to figure out which one is faster...I KNOW the answer.Go back and read the posts...ddduuuhhh....what a moron.

Tell ya what,257, you don't like the phuquin posts, don't read them..........I'm sure you can figure THAT out......ddduuhhhh.Of course, how can we POSSIBLY be certain of that.....

Ill disagree.If you prep your rifle for a important hunt.And lets say you loose your ammo.The ability to buy factory ammo isn't going to do you much good.You know what your handloads are doing.You wont know what storebought ammo will shoot like or what the drops will be.You loose your ammo.
Your screwed.

Theres been some very good points made here for and against.
I seem to remember a test that Kenny Jerret did many years ago.He fired a 280 AI with a 140g bullet and a 7mm RM with a 140g bullet into a hanging white bed sheet at very close range.
The RM had a large number of unburnt grains of powder at the bottom of the sheet.
The 280 AI had two.
As a general rule of thumb.A more efficient round is quicker to tune for long range.
In the end the differences will be minor.
The 280AI is Parker Ackleys second best round.The fact you can get factory ammo for it now makes it a no brainer.
dave

The ability to buy factory ammo, for most people, means they can buy the same kind of ammo they lost or left at home. For handloaders it means they can at least buy ammo, take it to a range for a re-zero, and still go hunting. In most cases the result will be the same � meat will be made or not depending on factors unrelated to the particular rifle or ammo type used.



It�s a �no brainer� decision for me, to be sure. 7mm RM all day long.

You can argue the .280 Rem AI is more efficient or has better accuracy potential or is easier to tune, but I�m not buying any. In the end it comes down to cases.

Here�s 10 shots from my 7mm RM, shot in a 40mph crosswind:



Unfortunately I do not have a picture of the target where the 7mm RM put 3 of the 160g north Forks into a single cloverleaf measuring less than a caliber between centers.

Nice shooting!My .280AI groups between 1/2" and 3/4" at 200yds with 140 Accubonds and RL-22.That works for me.I'm sure lots of people get groups like that(or better!) from their own rifles,chambered for different cartridges.That's great,I'm only concerned with what my cartridge choice will do for me,and I'm happy with the .280AI's performance. Monashee

Monashee,
Caliber comparison discussions are fun to read. This thread is interesting and I have learned at least as much about a 7MM Remington Magnum as a 280 Ackley and that if you loose your ammo on a hunt you can either buy some at the local gun store and if you cannot find any borrow the guides gun or spot for a buddy until he tags out then use his.
My problem would be that if my ammo was lost my duffle would be gone too and I wouldn't have any clothes except what I walked into the airport with.
Hope this weather straightens out over here so I can get the rest of my hay down and bailed so I can make going to shoot a priority again and report on more 280 Ackley load development. HillBilly Bear's 120g load recommendations are already brewed up I just gotta find time to go burn some gunpowder. Next week hopefully.

Dave

Dave,let me know how you make out with the 120s,I've been meaning to try them.I'd also like to try the VV165 powder,but its very hard to get in Western Canada! Good Luck....Monashee

Monashee,
N-165 works pretty well in my rifle. There have been several guys post loads using that powder that have been real good especially with 140's. Looking at the powder rate burn chart I cannot help but think that RE22 would be as good but I haven't tried it.
Hopefully I can get out to try the 120's this week. As soon as I do the results will be here. If my NULA likes them and performs like HillBillyBears rifle she'll go Pronghorn hunting this fall with H4350 shoving 120TTSX's.

Dave

Why do people always discount the fact that you can still shoot factory ammo through an Ackley?

The whole "theory" that shooting a popular cartridge is better logistically is very flawed. Anyone going on a high dollar hunt that loses ammo can always use the guide's or PH's rifle. If its a local hunt many people bring two rifles, just in case one goes bad.

A bigger factor is that brass is easier to get and cheaper for the more mainstream cartridges, if you shoot a lot thats a big bonus....

Exactly,simply purchase some 280 rem ammunition,sight in,and go hunting.



280 rem brass is not hard to get,and it isn't that expensive.

From what I've seen, 280 brass is cheaper than 7 mag brass too.

HillBilly,
Just got home after an evening at the range trying the 120TTSX with your recommended powder charge. Started @ 59g of H4350 and shot 4 on a clean barrel. Grouped about an inch. No pressure signs so I moved up to 60g and shot 3 that grouped 1 1/2". Again no pressure so I moved up to 60.5 and fired 2 in the same hole and again no pressure. Moved up to the last lot I prepped @ 61g of H4350 (your load) and fired 3 more that impacted in and around the previous 2. No pressure signs and the 5 shot string measured .383".
I did not set up the Chrony but will have that data the next time. Really won't make any difference cause when I stumble onto one that is as accurate as this load is horsepower is no longer much of a factor. Thanks for the recommendation!!

Dave

That's Great News. 120 grain bullets and H4350 are just a magic blend in the .280AI. Your velocity should be running between about 3,325 and 3,400 fps depending on your barrel length.

With the TSX you should be set for most any critter smaller than a cape buffalo.

Dunno how that combo will work in an ancient 99 in 284, but I'm fixin' to find out. If it's a dog all I'm out is my pride and a few bucks, but if it shoots in an inch at warp speed (for a 99) I'm in business.

Wayne

If your .284 doesn't like the TSX try some 120 Nosler BT with the H4350.

HillBilly,
You are right about the magic of the H4350 and the 120's. I cannot wait to get out again and run a few over the Chrony. The Douglas on my ULA is 24" long. I am hoping for mid 33's and from the sounds of your experiences with the same load it ought to be right in there somewhere.
The recoil with the 120 is noticeably less than with a 140 which is nice. Got 3 boxes of Nosler BT on the way as well. When I get the load chronied I'll work on shooting it at 300 and 400 yards. I'm thinking a guy might set it about 1 3/4" high @ 100 and be pretty close to hold on to 250 with just a slight allowance for distance @ 300 and just keep in on hair at 400.
Your recommendation is appreciated as it short circuited load developement quit a bit. Things normally don't come together as quick as this one.

Dave

I am zeroed at 1.5 inches high @100 and this puts me about 3.5 inches low @ 300 yards. The 120 will outrun the ballistics chart.

My rifle will drop the 120BT into 1-1.25 inch groups at 300yards. Your NULA should do better than that.

HillBilly,
Good to know. I have seen several that defy the ballistic charts. As for shooting under 1.5" @ 300 the NULA will probably do it with your recommended load and the 120's but ole Dave may have trouble.
I'm real confident I can keep one of those 120's in a 6" bull @ 300 and 400 off of either a SnipePod or a Harris BiPod either prone or laying. I'll get plenty of practice this summer and haul the 280AI out to WY and see if I have some luck finding and tagging a pronghorn or two.

Dave

If I can shoot 1.5 inches at 300 yards anybody can.

Last fall just before deer season I was out looking for an unsuspecting coyote (Old Wile E was a no show)and decided to see how the .280AI was shooting. I folded my jacket up and laid across a big rock and had no trouble hitting softball size rocks out to near 500 yards(range finder said 486).

Methinks, the WY pronghorns are going to be in for it when you and the NULA show up.

It's a great load. 61 grains of H4350 gives results virtually identical to Timm's, 3370 fps and makes tiny little groups on paper.

Guys, what type of velocities are you seeing w/140's, I've been shooting 140 TTSX-62g of RL22 and seeing 3040fps avg with groups around 3/4" today I pushed it to 64g which stretched groups to 7/8"-1 1/8" but velocity avg was 3111 fps.

My Cooper with a 23" barrel produces 3070fps with the 140gr TTSX ahead of 59gr of IMR 4831.

3150 with H4831, 3200 with RL22. Both with book loads.

Rick: What barrel make and length are you running?

My rifle with a 23 inch barrel will run around 3100 fps with the 139 Hornady and RL-22.

Hillbilly: Thanks!

After playing with my 7mm RM and running both 120g and 140g TTSX's over the chrono, I settled on the 140g for better long range ballistics even though it starts out slower.

Might want to give it a try in your .280 and run the numbers. Although with accuracy like that, I'd be loath to look at other loads...

Bob, it's a 24" 9 twist made by Ted Gaillard in Sask. It's not "quite" as accurate as some other barrels I have had, but it is a M700 mountain rifle contour. It will average around 0.6" with 140 TSX's or accubonds, and will do an honest half-inch with 150TSX's at 3050. Amazing accuracy from such a light little barrel!

P.S. It's full length neutral bedded in a compact EDGE stock, same bedding as a NULA.

Great looking rifle. I'm not a fan of the AIs but this one clearly shoots. I have a 7mm RM project in the works.

Rick, HillBilly, Bob, Coyote,

Got out this evening after supper. Didn't get started until about 7:15PM, The guy that tends the range was running a weedeater when I got there and said he would be about 20 minutes which gave me time to set up the Chrony. Had some Nosler 120 BT and some TTSX's both with 61g H4350 behind them.
Chrony (after I put the skyscreens on) said 3358 to 3375 with the BTips. It started raining so I out the Chrony up. Groups with the Noslers were not as tight as with the TTSX's but gotta give the BTips another chance or two at different depths. They'll probably dial in.
24" Douglas contour 2. NULA Model 24

Dave

Sounds like you have things coming together nicely.

Dave,

Sounds great, it's a nice cartridge. Keep us posted!

Dave/Rick: The cartridge smokes with those 120's

You both seem to be getting good accuracy,too.

I used the 7 RM to take most of my game at ranges beyond 400 yards, some over 500 yards, for years. The velocity was 3125 fps in 3 different rifles, just a velocity I settled on for prone shooting and comfortable recoil.
I always wanted a 280 Ackley because it would accomplish the above and was an excuse for one more rifle to play with. I know that particular combo of RL 22 and 140 Nosler BT's was deadly accurate from the 7 RM and the same velocity from a 280 Ackley would be the same, given the same twist.
Any excuse for more rifles to enjoy and experiment with and improve knowledge and marksmanship and take game cleanly or make better scores, whether it's 45-70 or a 257, is "good" for those of us who enjoy rifles and reloading.
I could buy a dozen 30-06's and have bought about 8 and yet I have to try 150's, 165', and 180's with several propellants over several range trips in each and every one, though it's been done by hundreds of thousands of people before in the 30-06.
It's just that my last 300 WSM shoots 3 different types of factory ammo into the .3's and .4's for about any size game and I am wondering why I reload right now at all, except 180 Federal Accubonds are $54 now for 20 rounds.
Uh...yes, the 280 Ackley would be great if it pleases you and that's the only person you need to satisfy. I personally think the extra 125 fps to 175 fps, depending on the barrel, over a regular 280 is worth it to me, though MD would disagree. I just know I'd nick the hair on the belly with a 280 while a 280 Ackley would pop the heart. Sometimes it's the inches that do count.