This comes up often, and we all have our opinions. I'll share mine, and see where this leads.

In my mind, there is no hard distance answer to the question.

Long range shooting begins at the distance where long range shooting PRINCIPLES and TECHNIQUES are applied. Basically anything past max PBR.

What are long range principles?

- Range determination (LRF, reticle subtension, mildot master, SWAG)

- Correction for drop (Science. El turret, reticle holdoff)

- Wind call ( this is the art of LR)

- Correction for wind (Windage turret, holdoff)

- Correction for slope (determining horizontal distance to target)

I quickly spun these principles/techniques out of my head, might have overlooked something else obvious.

With my 308 and 30-06s, long range begins at about 250 yards, with an initial elevation setting of 200 yards applied to the elevation turret.

I mostly use a LRF, and sometimes a Mildot Master for range determination, elevation turret for drop correction, usually a reticle holdoff for wind correction.

Slope correction is not something I have to concern myself with too often. There is a spot I shoot where I'm about 500 ft above my target, at a lased range to target of 1050 yards. My 1000 yard dope puts me on target. I understand the concept of horizontal distance to target being the relevant information for an accurate drop correction.

Open for your methods, opinions, comments, disagreement, or what have you.

can't argue that no matter who you are or what your abilities are, that long range begins when you have to start thinking past simply putting the crosshairs on the target and pulling the trigger.

for a .22LR, that would likely be past about 75 yards from a 50yd zero ... for a 'standard' centerfire cartridge I agree that it's about 250 yards from a MPBR zero ...

for me personally, I can typically hit (within an inch or so) of my intended POI out to about 250-300 yds with my centerfires, but after that I have to spin turrets and/or hold off for wind. Even then, it's pretty 'easy' until I get to about 500 yards ... at which point I really have to 'work' to make sure I have everything in order to make the shot - meaning, the rifle/loads have to be well tuned in, I have to have a good solid rest, and I can't be in a hurry or winded (heavy breathing and heartbeat) so that I can concentrate on proper form, trigger pull and follow thru.

I also realize that for some people who are really good shots, that "long" doesn't start until you're at 800 yards or so. I'd love for that to be me, but I'm not there yet. Despite the fact that I get to shoot a good bit these days, I just don't have a lot of opportunities to really stretch things out enough to get ample practice at really extended ranges.

Shane, I envy you guys who can basically step out of your front door and start banging away at 1000+ yards ... I can only imagine that 500yds and closer feels like you're wasting time.

this seems to come up quite often and we also get bashed for not aggreeing on what exactly is long range.

I do aggree that long range is past MPBR, when LR shooting pricibles come into play, but I do not consider that a long shot if you know what I mean.

The biggest factor in what people think is long range is there ability. Some think that long range is 400yards and that is as far as anyone should shoot. I can respect that because they are staying withing there abilities (maybe) and are not confident shooting past that. Point is long range is not defined in a book somewhere it is defined by each persons confidence level so it is going to vary.

I think that what a lot of people get caught up in is stating there max range they shoot at, for me, I shoot out to 1500 yards on a regular basis, but that is certainly not where long range starts for me. This is often misunderstood.

My methods are much the same as yours. I use a LRF and sometimes when practicing I will try some mildot ranging just for grins in combination with a clinometer and a calculator to figure TBR, elevation drop turret, and holdoff for wind, although I have also been practicing spinning turrets for wind the last year or so.

Longrange hunters are misunderstood by other hunters in the same way that hunters in general are misunderstood by the libtards. It is human nature to reject and denounce what you do not understand.

The degree of difficulty definitley increases exponentially with distance.

From the point of reference of the 308 Win, 500 yards is a relatively easy shot. 1000 yards is a lot more than twice as difficult. Mostly because of the wind, and the art involved.

My 308 155 Scenar load drifts about 15" at 500 (10 mph, f/v), compared to 75" at 1000 yards.

Great topic and I'm interested in seeing the replies that it generates. I like the definition so far of long range. Seems about as universal as we're likely to get.

For me, LR starts around 250-300 yards with my big game rifles. I then have a pretty slim window of "LR" before it is called simply "too far". That's part of why I'm here - to listen and learn about ways to stretch that a bit (even if just for the sake of confidence in my shooting). That's also why you'll find me asking much more than answering on this forum

I am using a LR with a BDC type reticle. Definitely have room to grow there but also know next to nothing in real world experience about dealing with the wind. I know the charts, but that doesn't mean diddly without learning how to estimate the wind and apply the correction. Seems like this is MUCH more of an issue than drop in my book.

Thanks to the guys here who are willing to help out in this quest! Seems like a pretty good group but also a bit touchy at times as you guys are tired of being attacked for the LR stuff. Can't say I blame you much of the time but it does make "newbies" like me think a bit carefully about how to word things on here.

Stan you are one of the good guys in here. You are doing the right thing trying to learn from these guys, they have a lot to offer. Keep asking as may questions as you like. If you have a question you don't want to air publicly you can always drop me a PM and I would be happy to help you out if I can.

MM & all,
Good thread!
Wind is the thing that whips up on me still at times.
One thing that slapped me around several years ago, was that wind needs to be vertical doped at times as well.
Seeing wind from a 3-dimensional perspective has helped me a lot, while humbling me at the same time
Ernie

Roger that, on the vertical wind. I get it here too, especially up on a hill shooting down, into the wind. It blows up the hill giving some 'lift'.

Yep, there is no such thing as a "zero" value wind at long ranges. It had me confused for a while.

heavywalker - I appreciate that. I'll keep putting in trigger time and asking questions. Almost can't help but improve that way

Stan, I have some experience to share that may, or may not relate to you. It should be noted that I have started to relay this numerous times, but have not for fear of upsetting some. I conducted an experiment last year, using a new shooter, who has hunted with me for the past 3 or 4 years. He comes to the range with me once, maybe twice a year just before hunting season. It should be noted that during the mid to late seventies, he served in the USAF, and shot quite a bit at that time. He wanted a new rifle, as he had been using one of mine. I built him a Rem 700 in .300WM, and topped it with a vintage Scopechief 3X9X40 with BDC. This is the scope that has the interchangeable inserts on the elevation dial for different loads. The other two fellas present, are of about the same level, as far as trips to the range, rounds fired, etc. The rifles these fellas had were also a .300 WM and a 30-06. Both of these rifles were topped with older Vari-X II glass in 3X9 configuration. I had set up my 18" gong at 500 yards, and had been poking it at will with my .243. I invited the others to shoot my rifle. The two .300WM fellows also hit the gong at will, and did not miss. The 30-06 guy needed a bit of convincing, as he dismissed this whole LR stuff as a bit of a stunt. He had never taken a shot past 250 yards. Ever. I finally got him to shoot. He also hit the gong at will, and did not miss 5 out of 5 shots. The other .300WM fella, not USAF, decided he wanted to try and hit the gong with rifle, now that he saw how easy it was. I could not help him, as he had no turret on his scope. He figured he could hold over and hit it no problem. Several shots later, he had not connected with the gong. It was USAF's turn. He asked me what to do. I told him to turn the dial on his scope until it said 500. He did. He laid on the ground, held directly on the gong, and proceeded to smack it 5 out of 5 times. 30-06 was most impressed, and asked if he could shoot USAF's rifle. He also connected with gong 3 out of 3. The guy attempting to do the holdover thing saw the error in his ways, bought a new scope with turrets on it, and has been doing well out to 600 yards. He shot a deer this year at 300 yards, through the throat. Exactly where he was aiming. 30-06 has given this much thought, and decided that he also would like a Scopechief with a BDC in it, as it best fits his price range. Take from this long winded diatribe what you will, but I do have a point. If you keep your starting distances reasonable, show respect for the wind, have the right (not the most expensive) equipment, practice, and not be afraid to try something new, it can be relatively easy and uncomplicated to be effective to 500 yards. These were your average, I shoot when I hunt, guys. They maybe fire a box of shells total between all three of them in a year. It's not magic.

R.

Rman - While I originally selected the Burris FFII scopes due to the simplicity (not having to turn turrets) I am intrigued by the concept of trying a turret scope as well. May have to put one on a target rifle build if I can ever get to that one. Don't need it on the 9.3x62 that I'm doing next but would like to do a heavier range rig and may have to go there. I'm sure it would be revealing. Thanks.

Turrets offer flexibility, and precision, that you will never get from a crosshair. Trust me. I have several Leupy B&C scopes that now wear turrets. There is nothing simpler, and less confusing, that turning a turret to a predetrmined location, aiming at exactly what you want to hit, and pulling the trigger.

R.

I don't doubt that - it does make sense. The reason I didn't go sooner was primarily speed (for hunting purposes) but often at some distance you probably have a bit more time and the precision is likely worth it. Thanks.

MY $.02 which will piss off a lot of would be snipers, so be warned.

MM has the answer:"The degree of difficulty definitley increases exponentially with distance. "

There is not one average hunter in 100 who can put EVERY first shot in a 12" pie plate at ranges past 300 yards in REAL WORLD field conditions from improvised rests, wind, mirage AND animals are apt to move too. Too many try because they believe all the crap about sooper magnums and three pound scopes.

Long range big game hunting is long range target shooting using live targets. It has little to do with hunting as we old geezers were taught it. Only a geezer who grew up hunting deer with a 30-30, 12 bore shotgun with smoothbore slugs or a bowhunter really "gets" hunting.

When you can smell em or see their eyelashes, you are hunting. The rest is trying to substitute technology for ability.

I'll give you a pass on Antelope but 2/3rds of the bucks on my wall COULD have been killed with my rifled slug 870.

My buddy with his 09' buck at 130 yards. Note the "long range Savage 99 in 300 with a 2-7 loopie. 130 TSX at 2800, DOA.

It's funny you should mention that, as I wrote above, I found THREE average hunters that put multiple shots in a group you could easily cover with a pie plate at 500 YARDS!

Again, you should really take your medicine and FO, as you and "your buddy" ARE THE SAME GUY!

Nice blinker BTW.

R.

It doesn't piss me off that you think the way you do it is your oppinion and everybody is entitled to one.

My 2 cents and this will probably piss you off.

I shot my elk this year at 1031 yards and 2 years ago I shot my elk at 20 yards with a bow. Trust me I get hunting the way you were taught. You see that is the difference between you and me I understand how to get close and close the deal as well as reach out and touch them. You get close but don't understand the other side of the equation which is why you critisize us. I and many other LRH have shot deer inside the ranges you think are acceptable so don't go thinking you have a monopoly on shooting an animal within 100 yards it has been done before.

And if you want to come up I can put as many shots into a 12" pie plate as you need to see to believe it can be done at 300 yards.

Any distance that requires holdover.

JW

As to the original question on this thread, I agree with JW. Any distance that requires holdover.

R.

I"ve said it before and I"ll say it again... evidently I must hang with many more above average folks than most hang around. ....

Rost495, according to the above wisdom, you must have thousands of friends.

R.

I think part of what you feel is wrong with LRH, was originally stated in the first post. LR is what each of us THINKS it is, then responds accordingly. If one believes slug gun range is hunting, fine, no argument here, (I killed my first deer"The hard way", my fathers words, with my bow.) I too know what close is, but do find a challenge in distance shooting. And because I have the equipment, and some experience to engage at distance, do not feel the lesser for it.

This is a common theme from the naysayers. I'm not too sure what constitutes an average hunter these days.

Anyone willing to put in some practice with a LRF, turrets, bipod, and beanbag can make the distance shots as easily in "real world field conditions" as on the covered bench with a BR front reat and rear sandbag.

Improvising a field shooting position is not all that difficult if you are thinking along those lines, and moving and using terrain to your advantage. A little practice is all it takes.

Field precision matches require steel to be engaged at distances from 200-1000+ yards under real world field conditions. Shooters interested in this pursuit tend to take a can-do attitude, and are willing to endure some discomfort, get a position going, and make a shot. Adapting these techniques to hunting is not difficult. It's just a matter of tailoring the tools, tactics, and techniques for the intended purpose.

Always enjoy your posts. Lots of good info. There seems to be a lot of "newbie" questions. Perhaps you could expand a bit on some info for those of us who want to get better at shooting at distance and build a rifle specifically for that purpose?

Ideal beginner set up?

Any stock set ups that work or we talking custom from the get go?
Caliber? (assuming some are better suited for beginners than others? i.e. .308 vs. .338 EDGE)??
Scope? Something that the average guy can afford, yet still works well.
Reticule? Which one(s) is good to start with and why?
Turrets? Scope with turrets or aftermarket

Also, any good books that might help? (Turrets and using a LR reticule sound like they could use a little reading before using??)

Thanks in advance for your time and expertise...

hekin, I'll offer some of my opinions, but there is a lot of latitude in hardware.

Beginner setup - If you want to keep it low budget, get a 22 rimfire, mount a Bushnell 3200 10X mildot (about $200 new, $150 used), work up a drop chart via JBM, and work on targets from 100 to 200 yards. you can learn a lot about wind, drop, correction, holdoffs. Transferring that knowledge and experience to a centerfire rifle is easy.

My idea of a good centerfire starter rifle would be something along the lines of a Rem 700 with a varmint weight barrel (there are quite a few variants), and a 10X Super Sniper scope. A Savage, Howa, or similar will do just as well.

223 or 308 are good starter calibers because commercial match grade ammo is avaialable. Most commercial hunting ammo is not all that accurate for working on long range skills.

When I say accurate, I mean consistent 1 moa accuracy, or better. Should be able to put 10 shots into 1", measured center-to-center.

Stocks are subjective. We are all shaped differently. a sporter style stock can work, but may not be as ergonomic as some purpose built LR stocks.

Scopes, The best bang for the buck out there is ther Bushnell 3200 10X, it comes with mildot reticle, and tactical turrets and sells for about $200. And the Super Sniper 10X rear-focus, 30mm tube, parallax adjustable, tactical turrets, about $320 new.

I like the Mildot reticle, but a duplex can work too.

I use 1/4 moa turrets. Leupold M1. Ther is a lot of choices out there. It makes sense to match the reticle and turret to thec same unit of measure. A lot of mil/mil setups out there. The Super Sniper 3-9x42 mil/mil looks like a good setup for about $500.

I can't really recommend any books. I learned a lot on the Sniper's Hide website.

What's long range.........

It's any shot that I can't accomplish with my zero'd setting and/or can't make with standard field positions. Deploying 'pods, or going MPAJ and threading the needle for a 50 or 100 yard shot could well qualify as long range with the right circumstances.

Long range also is not a poke and hope affair. It has a cut off point. In general it's the confident and practiced shot taken beyond the zero range and up to where it's deemed a max range for the bullet to be effective. For example, my 20" .243AI is zero'd at 200 yards with 85 grain TSX's, and I've a personally determined max range of 500 yards for that load. Meaning, from the muzzle out to 200 yards I'll hold/shoot with no corrections. From 200 out I'm dialing dope and won't shoot that load at a deer past 500 yards. I would also have to have ideal conditions as well, to take that 500 yard shot.

Change that up to a damn 'yote, ground hog, or steel target, or a larger caliber with more juice and the max range extends.

Good logic I think............

MMs` description of a starter rifle is very doable.
Another option would be to use what you are now shooting, as long as it`s a bolt gun, IMHO.
A few examples of mine would include my new 7mm Wby on a 700. The rifle is glassed with a Loupie 4.5-14 BC glass. It shoots dead on the reticuls at all ranges to 500yrds, with a 168grn JLK. I know this, as I`ve shot the yardages to conferm each zero. This load shoots 3/4 MOA at 300 yrds. I know this too, as I confermed by shooting, more than once. Factory original.

I have an 06 that shoots Sierra 180grners, lights out. Confermed by shooting from 100 out to 600yrds.FN Mauser, factory original.

Light guns are the 250AI, Burger 115grn bullet to 600. 700SA. Shoots under MOA at 300. This rifle has a no.3 coutour 24 inch c/m barrel.

Last is my Savage in .223 Mod 12 heavy 26 inch barrel, 9 twist, factory original,55grn Nos BT. Shoots Nosler 80 Custom Comp. bullets into 1/2 inch or less 100 yrd groups. Bushnell 3200 10x MD scope.

Point is that you may have a shooter in the barn that just needs some tuning. My rifles, the 700s are all pillar and glass bedded, free floated barrels. The FN is glassed and floated, the Savage I skim bedded in the original stock, which has steel pillars. All work done myself. Good glass, loads worked up carfully, and shot at all ranges to conferm zerro and accuracy. I shoot off Harris pods, and rear bag when I can when hunting. Bag always when conferming zerros, loads, etc.

This is getting windy, but if you have the opportunity to do so, practice in the summer on varmints, woodchucks, crows, p dogs etc...I`ve been known to go out West for rockchucks...excellent hunting practice, excellent wind reading practice.

Agreed. Most any typical bolt action can be handloaded and used to get you up and running. Add a scope with an elevation turret, a LRF, and you are in the game.

We think a lot alike on this topic.

One difference is how I zero my rifles � I zero for a maximum 3� rise, which often puts the -3� MPBR past 300 yards. �Long range� is when I have to start using alternative aiming marks (dots or hash marks or whatever) in the reticle.

Still, I�m much more comfortable taking a 500 yard shot at a standing target than I am a 50-yard shot at one that is running.

Never said it could not be done, just opinied that:
1. most can't (especially eastern flatlanders who never shot at live game more than 150 yards away)
2. it is not necessary if traditional hunting skills are learned and used.

"A man has to know his limits." Far too many let their ego get in the way of what they really know their limits are.

"Again, you should really take your medicine and FO, as you and "your buddy" ARE THE SAME GUY!
Nice blinker BTW."

RMAN....THAT'S JUST A BOLDFACED LIE, but to be expected from Big Stick flunky. Go back to the site of the banned and leave us alone.
You are welcome to stop by and we'll both have a heart to heart talk with you.

Nor is it necessary to used a scope, or hell a rifle for that fact. Compound bow, why? if traditional skills are learned we all should be runnin around with stick bows.

While I agree that there are a lot of folks who have never shot over 150 yards, your second comment is so much hooey.

The fact is that there are often two choices � take the shot that is offered or take a pass. The constraints of time, terrain, weather, property boundaries, legalities, animal densities (or lack thereof), animal movement, the presence and/or movement of other hunters, etc., often dictate that getting closer (�traditional hunting skills�) is simply not possible.

Also, as I�ve said numerous times before, I�d much rather take a 500-yard shot at a standing target than a 50-yard shot at one that is running. I�ve hit enough running coyotes, at ranges from a few feet to over 300 yards, to know that the greater degree of difficulty in placing the shot well is, for me, the running shot by a substantial margin.

I'll agree with that 100%. Running shots are far harder to make than the much longer shots at standing, undistruberd animals. The only exception I can think of would be in a really strong, gusty wind. E

Today, for the first time, I was able to get to the range and shoot my new 6.5-06AI. Originally I had put a spare Leupold M8 4x on it just so I would have something to shoot fireform loads with. I later swapped scopes with my Rem M700 .30-06 which had a Burris Fullfield II 4.5-14xAO with Ballistic Plex reticle. That left me with two rifles that needed to be zeroed.

I started at the 100 yard covered range to get on paper and set the point of impact at 100 yards, about 2-1/2" high for both rifles. My fireform loads were pussycats in the AI, 140g A-MAX over 49.0g H4831SC running a very consistent 2669fps to 2680fps for a six-shot sample. (Hornady lists 49.4g at 2800fps for the standard 6.5-06.) My .30-06 load was another pussycat, 168g A-MAX over 51.0g BL-C(2) for about 2635fps average.

Here's a .25-06 necked up to hold the 6.5mm 140g A-MAX and a fireformed 6.5-06AI case.


After satisfying myself at the 100 yard range I headed to the longer range where I put clay pigeons on the 400 yard berm and painted the steel gongs at 500.


My first shot with the 6.5-06AI was at a 500 yard gong. Having never fired the rifle before today and only then out to 100 yards for sight-in, I had to guess at the bullet drop. The third hash mark down from center in the Ballistic Plex reticle seemed appropriate and it was � I rang the gong three times in succession. In the picture below you can just see the two orange gongs to the right of the 500 yard target boards. (The long, horizontal dark line in the center of the picture is the shadow of the target boards, visible below the boards themselves. The shorter dark line just above it is the shadow of the 600 yard boards.)


More shooters arrived and a cease fire was called to set up targets and I took the opportunity to move one of the gongs back to 600 yards. When the range went hot I decided to try using the lower thick-thin transition point for aiming. I cranked the scope up to 14x and promptly missed the 600 yard gong, just off to the right. Holding just to the left of the gong fixed the problem and I rang it several times in a row before deciding to let the barrel cool.

Next up was the .30-06 with its pokey 2635fps loads. The Leuplod M8 has a fine crosshair reticle and I had to guess about the holdover. Nevertheless my first shot rang a 500 yard gong, as did each successive shot.

Letting the .30-06 cool, I tried a couple shots at the 400 yard clay pigeons with the 6.5-06AI but couldn�t quite get the windage and elevation � flying dirt showed hit was easily in the kill zone of even an antelope, but a miss is a miss. I bounced back and forth between the two rifles, ringing the 500 and 600 yard gongs with both. Too easy. Another cease fire was called and I put a clay pigeon on the 600 yard berm. My first shot with the 6.5-06AI was just to the right, the second just over the top. The third shot hit it pretty much dead center, leaving the lower half more or less intact. Not bad for randomly selected fireform loads...


Another cease fire and another clay pigeon on the 600 yard berm. My second shot took it out.


I tried the 400 yard pigeons again, and this time I got the windage and elevation correct (there basically wasn�t any wind but the scope was set to shoot a bit to the right). Several pigeons bit the dust before I called it a day.

Including the sight-in rounds, I fired only 24 .30-06 rounds and 44 6.5mm-06AI fireform loads during the course of the day. The .30-06 proved to be quite capable of hitting the 500 and 600 yard gongs with a simple 4x scope and the 6.5-06AI, which I had never fired before, was able to take out clay pigeons at the 600 yard line with randomly selected fireform loads. (I had a jug of H4831SC that I don�t use any more and Hornady had a 6.5-06 load � a marriage made in heaven.) In fact, the most difficult shots I took all day were the first few shots at the clay pigeons on the 400 yard berm. While I don�t claim to be a great long distance shot, I think this experience demonstrates that one needn�t shoot hundreds or even thousands of rounds with a particular weapon to be able to place bullets in the kill zone at ranges out to 600 yards.

It was all much easier than putting bullets in the kill zone of a running animal at 50 or 100 yards...

Long range for me is often dictated by conditions. For example, this year in Wyoming I had a pronghorn I wanted at 600 yards, in a 30 mph wind! 600, on a relatively calm day is where LR would normally start for me,and a fairly easy shot prone w/bipods. but in that wind it was a no shot situation.

On most days, I consider 800 yards to be the distance when things get squirrelly. I shoot a 30-378 w/4.5-14 vx111 and turrets. a Barnes 180 mrx. 800 is about my max on big game. I do shoot it at 1000 plus at the range, with great success. most of my shots are 500 and in, so the mrx suits me well, my longest kill with this rig is 780 yards on a big bull elk. (complete penetration too, those Barnes are impressive!)

Your buddy's fly is unzipped or unbuttoned.

Practically speaking, Long Range starts for me at about 450 yards. That's where I have to start paying attention to detail. In average conditions, closer than that I can just whack the bejesus out of my 10" plates pretty much at will...

Whoever said that things get exponentially harder as the range increases out past 600 or so, sure nailed it! At least IME.

I have no idea what long range means in terms of hunting, for me. I killed an elk at about 300 yards. I could have done the same at 400, that day. Not sure about 500. Adrenaline really plays havoc with my particular system. I'd have to have some significant time to settle down before taking a shot past 400 or so. And, my practice on steel shows me that things get wonky for me around 650 yards in terms of first-shot hits, every time, so I guess in reality in a hunting context "long range" is a pretty narrow sliver- between about 400 yards and 600 yards.

heavywalker, that bullet in your avatar is the 180 AB you pulled out of your elk, right? It looks like it expanded significantly at the 1400-ish fps it must have been going. Interesting!

Jeff,

That is the one I pulled out of the elk. and it did expand all the way back to the shank. I know that nosler says that 1800fps is the limit for expansion but I have found lots of bullets out of the berm that I use as a backdrop at 1000-1500 yards and the expansion is comparable to the bullets I found in that elk. I found it to be very interesting as well.

Your comment started some research.... Spent some time on the various Sniper's website and they had some great "stickys" that were good reads...

Here is one of the best: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=237232#Post237232
This is a link within it: http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/

My summation of this is as follows: My 1st LR specific rig is going to be a Rem 700 donor action in .308 WIN matched to a local gunsmiths recommended barrel, unless I find some screaming deal on a Rem 700 varmint or police set up of some sort. ??? Looks like one can easily modify a rifle to include a magazine, LR specific stock etc. Once I can improve my skills to where it bores me or I want more I'll pick a Rem 700 in .300 RUM. Set it up, shoot it till the barrel burns out and then consider the .338 EDGE.

As for optics. I plan to start with this (based on MontanaMarine's suggestion): http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactical-Riflescope-P499.aspx
Next step would be a Leupold Mark 4 (if I am not happy with the beginner's special)

I pretty much have the rifle, optics, and caliber figured out. I plan to start with the standard plastic stock and add a LR specific stock and magazine the following year if I really feel the need. Probably add an adjustable cheek pad, but want to shoot a friend's setup first... Now I need to figure out the scope mounting rail and rings to use and I am good to go.

I won't claim to be in the same league of shooters that you have gotten advice from, but I will say that I've learned more from my .223s than any other rifle (22rf could be the exception).

Very common and cheap brass, tons of good bullets from under 40 to over 80 grains, easy to reload, easy to shoot, easy to spot your hits through the scope at all ranges. Shooting 50's in the wind is pretty instructive....

If I went that route it would be a good excuse to get an AR... : )

dieing quivers

To address the OP : What I know of Long Range hunting [ as opposed to LR shooting ] I've learned from reading posts on this forum . My take on the definition is this :

Long Range hunting occurs when distance - rather than the quality of the animal - defines the hunt .

There is nothing "wrong" with it . It takes the focus off the quality of the game taken and puts it on the ability of the shooter .

A hunter who prides himself on only shooting bucks in their bed is doing the same thing .

I personally have killed enough ordinary deer in my life to pass them up . That doesn't make me an " elitest " and doesn't keep me from admiring a dink shot at long range or in his bed .

I killed my first deer 55 years ago with a 22 lr and if I didn't keep changing my hunting philosophy , I would have gotten bored to the point of giving it up long ago .

My philosophy for the past few years is simple : I hunt until it is time to shoot , then I shoot ! Some hunts I don't shoot at all . Other times I may pass on better animals than I wind up taking . I never shoot just to fill a tag .

If I shoot a pretty ordinary buck at 400 yards primarily because he is 400 yards [ and I've done that ] I'm engaging in Long Range hunting .

If I shoot a buck at 400 + yards because he is a really good one [ and I havn't done THAT !] I'm just hunting for the best buck in the pasture which is what I usually do .

Just my two cents worth on the subject , and - as I said - I derived it from reading what you guys post .

What distance is "long range"?

I believe there are at least two distinct determinants for what constitutes long range, the personal comfort zone and the accepted group norm (the second changes quickly as the "group" is an ever changing entity).

Personal:

If I have some doubts about my ability to easily hit a target, whatever it may be, I am shooting at a distance I consider long range. The distance changes from day to day (environmental conditions), by firearm and the target (characteristics).

Group:

If I'm plinking with a group of shooters at distances within the comfort zone of the individual group members it doesn't seem to matter the distance, it is not long range. If one of the group happens to call for a "spot for me" and whacks a rock or steel at well beyond the groups comfort zone, that is long range. It's a relative system.

The group acceptable situation is nice so long as there aren't any outside members allowed. Invite (or suffer) a 100 yard shooter in a 600 yard group and you'll either need to limit the shots to 100 yards, teach the new fella to shoot or endure the "education".