Whaddaya think? If you've shot both, does the 7-mag do it enough better to justify a 7-mag IF you already have a great-shooting 30-06?

Talking plain ol' 7-mag here, or 7 WSM. Think 160's at 3050 or so. In other words what a 7 STW will do is not relevant.

Considering a build, but trying not to be a spaz about it <grin>. Already got a kickass '06.

Have the rifle you already own accurized then work up a load with a bullet in the 180-200 grain weight. 6mmbr.com has good info on the 30-06, German Salazar has several good posts on the ole 06, since that is the cartridge he competes with.

How far do you intend to shoot?

John, think light sporter hunting rifle. 650, 700 yds MAX. Hunting, not match work.

I already have a heavier dedicated LR rig (such as it is, lol).

If you compare velocity per BC, the 7 Mag should have an extra 300 fps or so MV. That has to give a significant advantage in windage downrange.

The 30-06 is no slouch though. I'm doing 208s at 2720 fps with 22.5" bbl. It plays very well to 1200 yards, and I dick around with it at a mile+.

A 7mm launching 162s at 3100 has to be pretty sweet.

30-06 and 7wsm are two complete different animals. If you are even imagining (I know your imagination is very active Jeff) shooting at a big game animal at 700 yards, then you better at least have some confidence in your own ability to discern between a good choice and a bad choice in chamberings for LR shooting.

A 30-06 will fill the bill nicely. My 30-06 gets 2873 average with 180 BT. AccuBond or TTSX in the same neighborhood. That is not too shabby and look at the load that MM is shooting no fly's on that one either

Yes more velocity can be achieved with the 7 mag, but a 30-06 will git-r-done

Calvin, first: lol. Second, have you shot both extensively out to those ranges and if so, did you see a significant ability to hit a 10" target better with the 7mm from a sporterweight rifle in field conditions?

I hven't shot a 7 mag against a 30-06 but I have shot a 300 Ultra mag against a 30-06 and a 300 win and I usualy hunt with a 30-06 or 300 win and not the Utra Mag. That should answer your question if you read between the lines just a tad

Thanks. Yeah, I agree that the '06 gets it done. I shoot mine a bunch. I've been running 165's at 2925 fps or so just because they are a bit more accurate in my rifle.

Guys sing the praises of a medium 7mm and they do look good on paper. Obviously better than the '06. I do know, the two rigs I'm running relatively high-BC bullets in (300 WM and .338) are noticeably less twitchy in the wind (duh). And that's at around 2800 fps. So, the 7mm running a high BC bullet above 3000 fps has me wondering if it'd be enough of an upgrade over my '06 to justify the cost and hassle of the project.

I have. I stretch out everything I own. The .625 BC wins every time.

That depends on your definition of "enough of an upgrade over my '06 to justify the cost and hassle of the project" is.

Jeff,

I toyed with the same idea a few months ago. After bugging Rickbin, and some others I decided on the 7mm mag against the 30-06.
The 30-06 will do fine, but I went with what I seen on paper. The .617 168 bergers and the.625 Amax beat anything the 06 could put out from 150 to 200 grain if I remember correctly. The extra speed and KE was enough for me to go the 7 Rem Mag route.
My previous 7RM loved the 154 SST's and 650 yards was a cake walk with my old stock and unaltered Savage 110.
The main difference I found is you have to aim higher with the 30-06 than the 7mags oh and the 7 mag will hit a little harder at longer ranges.
If you already have a great shooting 06, get the 7 mag and be done. If you think the 06 could be better, fix it up. I think 06 rounds are more available than 7RM in mom and pop places if you ever leave your ammo at home.

I went the 7RM route and glad I did.

Kique

Disclaimer: I am no expert in rifles I just shoot what works for me and what I like.

Lol, true enough.

Well. Let's see. "Enough" would be if I picked up 100 yards of usable range. Usable range being defined as first-shot, no sighter hits. That'd make me happy

Trying to get my brain around whether the upgrade I'm proposing would be less squirrely enough in the wind etc, to make that much difference.

I know that's an arbitrary number but you are right, this needs quantified. So there it is.

Guys,

I ran some JBM tables on your two candidates:

First a 7mm Rem Mag 162 gr A-Max (using G7 BC's) @ 3100 FPS

700Yds Drop -3.7 Mils -12.9 MOA Drift 1.1 Mils 3.6 MOA 2076.4 FPS 1550.7 Energy-ftlbs

Next a 30-06 208 A-Max (using G7 BC's) @ 2720 FPS

700Yds Drop -5.0 MILS -17.1 MOA Drift 1.2 Mils 4.2 MOA 1817.2 FPS 1525.0 Energy-Ft LBS

The 7mm Rem mag is flatter shooting, and has a bit less drift. But energy and hitting power are very close, and frontal area favors the 30-06.

A close call either way.

Bob

+1

Didn't believe the mojo in the 162amax until I tried it myself....

And I have an '06, a 300wm, 300shamu, and a 300Ultra (which I absolutely love) and I haven't touched any of them since picking up the 7wsm...(and thats just the 308" stuff)

(Oh, and mines a Montana, in case you were wondering.......grin)

Lol.... you're killin' me....






Well, I will say that while I did personally just drive a 200-gn bullet over 2700 fps in my 30-06, with RL17, accuracy was dismal and thus unusable and, I don't *think* there's another powder that will do that. And I probably won't be hunting with amax's though, who knows....

So when running charts I've personally been using more "normal" bullets and speeds. Such as 3050 fps for the 7WSM with a 160-NAB, and 2925 fps with a 165-NBT from the '06. Or 2800 fps with a 180-NBT. Those are speeds I know I can get, with accuracy, and this '06.

Calvin and Kodiak: thanks!!

I'd like to feel the recoil on the 208 Amax being launched out of a non braked lightish weight 30-06 at those speeds before I decided if it was something I was interested in..

Don't sell the amax short Jeff....

Penetration tests (at distance) that I've run, are quite impressive. More than impressive.

And thats comparing them to TSX's....

Example:
Had a buddy here for a few days hunting deer, and I was showing him the mojo inherent to the Montana, and amax's in particular.

He runs a ballistic plex on a 700 7rm, and he's currently in TTSX mode flinging 120's at warp nine. And he's had some pretty good luck with them this year, killing an elk at 47 yards (one shot bang-flop), and a big bull moose at waaaaay out there. (Two pokes to the shoulder, but moose don't generally tip over quickly.)

Any rate, I'd forgot my stand for the 10" steel plate I keep in the truck, so we hung it with a bunjie cord from a fence post and backed off to 700 and change yards.

He settled in, and let drive with his 120TTSX's....3 or 4 sighters, and he was hitting the plate. (To be fair, he'd of killed a deer with the sighters, as they all hit the 4" diameter post above and below before he found the range). The ttsx's hit with a pretty good whack once he found the appropriate hold.

I settled him in behind my montana, he dialed the dope, and scored a first round hit on a 700+ yard plate from a rifle he never shot before. The amax's hit with a substantially harder smack at that range.

He poked it a couple more times, I smacked it a couple times, and we toured back to collect the plate.

The ttsx's and the tsx's I flung into it from my wsm left some okay dings. The amax's bored holes straight through it. I'm guessing from the lack of give what with the plate being against a post.....

Short answer....YES.

I've 3 dead animals this year from the 162amax. I pulled the trigger on one,and the kids on the rest. Like all light skinned bullets, don't hit bone, or you have one hell of a mess on your hands. I hunt with 100% confidence with the amax.

Recoil with the 200-NAB at 2740 fps was no big deal.

But then again, I enjoy shooting my .325 Montana running 200's at 2900 fps from all manner of field positions, so maybe I'm a bad example here <g>.

By the way, 2740 fps was max max max! 2700 fps was a more reasonable load.

What was left of a 162 'max. Johnny likes to shoot shoulders..

You da man, Kodiak! Thanks!! (I think, lol)

And those were close-ish range shots too I believe weren't they Calvin?

Seem to recall that yours was 250 or so, and Johnny's was a bit closer than that no?

I personally carry both with the 7, 120 tsx's for point blank to 400-500, and amax's for 400 through to the edge of my comfort range....Figure it gives me the best of both worlds. Although, if I'd of had time to react on that muley last week I'd of amax'd him just for R&D.

I know......grin

I'm sure its a little premature at this point, but hey, there's the water cooler Jeff, go on, you know you want to take a drink......We won't tell anyone. Honest.

They ranged from 50 to 260 yards.. I'm taking a guy cruising tomorrow in the boat that needs to fill a freezer. 7saum and 162's will be in tow, and all dinks will be fair game.. Should be a good show, and I have a feeling that he'll fill the freezer and I'll get more 162 data.

Thought that was the case....

I'll be surprised if you don't have some data to share all right.....From the sound of things stuff must be happening HARD around there right now with the bucks....

Have a good day tomorrow, take pics.

I guess for what I'm envisioning this rifle for a really soft bullet might be ok. That'd be new territory for me.

As long as I had a couple 160-NAB's in my pocket for sneaking around in the timber <grin>.

Fixed it for you.

Just refuse to drink the Kool Aid don't you Jeff.....It won't kill you....And you might even like them.

I just got to Utah and will be hunting cow elk tomorrow. I brought a 30-06 as my main gun and a 260 for a backup. I left the ultramags home because I used one down here last year and wanted to try something different. It's open country and shots can be long but I'm ok with just having the 06 and 260.

My 30-06 is a #3 broughton on a 700 action and it's loaded with 180 AB's at 2775 fps. It's zeroed at 200 and 15 moa puts me on at 700. I'll be limiting shots to 700 with this combo because that's about were the bullet drops below 1800 fps. If I was using a 7 mag with a 162 amax I'd feel more comfy going past 700, say maybe 1000 if I was practiced up to it.

Last year I pulled a running straight away THS on this hunt at 503 with a 300 ultra and a 200g AB. I wouldn't have tried it with a lessor combo but it worked out. I had a knee injury at the time and knew I'd be lucky to get any kind of shot so I came prepared for a less than ideal angle.

Hopefully I'll see how the 06 does tomorrow.

Bb

Lol... at this point it's just entertaining to argue a side (of the TSX Wars). I'm sure they are great bullets. Buuuuuut..... <BSEG>

No real world difference at any range.

I don't see how either one wont git-r-done at 700 yards or less, just saying. IMHO if you miss on the first round with either, it ain't the chambering.

If you realy want smething that reaches out really far and bucks the wind, then get a 338 Edge or Laupa and send a 300 grain SMK or Berger down range. Now that is an improvement worth having IMHO & E

Here ya go, Jeff:

How about the 180 AB at 2850?

...............Jeff,,,,,,,,,,,,,As a suggestion, go over to the Hornady site and link up to their "external ballistics" table. Choose your preferred bullets and bullet weights in 7mm and 30 cal. Type in the BCs, your est MVs, your scope`s zero in yardage, temps etc, and then compare all the downrange #s for trajectories, retained velocities, and retained energys. It`s all there for you. Grab a notepad and jot everything down.

The 7mm Mag is the flatter long range shooter, and "if" I were pursuing flatter trajectories, the 7 mag would be my choice over the `06 at say beyond 600-700 yards for open country hunting.

If we can believe the hardware has the same potential, for the sake of arguement both rifles are 1moa or better, let just look at the exterior ballistics.

Using Jordans chart we can break it down as the 162 drifting at 2.8" per 1mph or crosswind, the 165 drifting at 4.5" per 1mph of crosswind. Now look at a possible wind reading error of 3mph, since the wind can swirl all over the place realize the error could be to the left or the right. The total possible error with the 7mm is 16.8" (8.4" to left or right) and the .30 has a error range of 27" (13.5" to left or right). Now superimpose a 8"x16.8" and a 8"x27" rectangle over a 10" target and tell me which one you wanna shoot with. Also to be fair you will still need to add one moa on to the width of the rectangle to reflect the original possible impact zone with no wind at all. Either way it illustrates how a little wind can cause a lot of problems but the 7mm has the best potential to save you if a wind read is missed. In the little illlustration I attached the black is a 10" target, blue is the .30 and red/brown is the 7mm.

Squeeze,

Thanks. I'm as addicted to chart-parsing as the next guy. Maybe even more so. I've run charts and tables on this stuff (using the same software as Jordan, but I'm gonna have to upgrade to the FTE version, I can just tell, Jordan!).... anyway, I know what the charts say, I'm trying to get a real-world feel from guys who are ahead of me in this game, as to whether the 7-mag actually allows hits you wouldn't get with a 30-06, basically.

Excellent illustration, thanks for taking the time!!

-jeff

jeff get the 7mm it will serve you better.

Workin' on it... grin... I'm in a "no new money" mode on my shooting hobby so something will have to be sold to finance it. Giving my gunsafe the ol' hairy eyeball, rifles are quaking in their boots, etc.

My problem is, I either fix or sell rifles that don't shoot... so even amongst the stuff I don't use much, everything I have is a shooter and it's hard to sell a shooter...

Here you go:

BTW, all charts are calculated with a 10mph crosswind with otherwise constant atmospheric conditions.

Haven't you bought a 7 Mag yet?

162's with Retumbo @ 3100 fps out of a factory rifle Real World
162's with Retumbo @ 3200 fps out of a Custom rifle Real world

Two buddies of mine went to Africa for plains game with the 162g SST loaded at 3150 fps. Both took all their game including Eland and Kudu with one shot each with the 162g SST, ALL shots were bang flops. The PH was so impressed he wrote an article about the guns and loads.

30-06 vs 7mm...with the '06 you have to dial in a few more clicks and hold off a little more for wind...that's it...it's not too hard of a concept to grasp.

With any caliber you have to hold the correct amount for wind whatever it may be. Estimating wind is part of developing the necessary skills for long range work. Every round is different anyway, but once you dial it in, your ranging is done. There is more variability in the guessing process than in the bullet.

There are better bullet choices for 30 cal that will narrow any theoretical performance gap. The 190 Berger might be one option to consider. I prefer the 200 AB past 600 yds, but either bullet carries enough performance to do well at those yardages.

I say work up a good LR load and shoot your 30-06 at 700 yds and see how it works for you. I would expect it to do well.

TC

TC, thanks. I agree in principal. I do shoot my 30-06 all the time out to 650 yards. In fact I've got it loaded into my truck right now and as soon as my youngest comes home (I don't like her getting off the bus to an empty house in our very rural area), I'm headed off to go shoot!

Thing is, as it sounds like you know, things get squirelly out past XXX yards. That XXX is going to be a little different with different bullets and cartridges; for my .358, it's past about 325 yards. For my 300 WM shooting 200-NAB's, it's past about 650. And (to the point at hand here), with my 30-06, it's around 500 yards.

I won't attempt to define "squirrely" other than to say, it's where I start to lose confidence in first-shot, no-sighter hits.

So, I already know what my 30-06 will do, at least with bullets in the 165-180 grain range. I have put many, many of them into the far hillside. What I'm wondering is if a 7mm mag will have a noticeably farther "squirrely" range!

Here's my 30-06 in action, shooting long range at my spot. I have steel plates hung out to 850 yards or so, though I unfortunatly have a gap between 650 and 800 yds...

Jordan, you just cost me $20! Finally upgraded to FTE.... wonder if I can xfer my favorites from Ballistic to FTE...

Haha, I think you'll like it

Fair enough.....So for me, my effective range with the Montana 7wsm shot MPAJ with 162's, is right around 800 yards for a first round hit on my 15" plate without a sighter, given easy wind to read.

Meaning, I'd have zero compunction ( given appropriate site conditions ) poking a hole in a big deer at that range.......

Kodiak, since you are such a great resource here- what then is your "squirrely range" with your '06?

Jeff, that 300 win mag should be an easy 1000 yard rifle. Hell MM is shooting his 30-06 out past 1000 yards with good results. I'd say you need to learn to shoot what you have now. A new caliber is just another learning curve

John, point taken and yes, I've got plenty to learn. Give me a sighter and I'm good. But I'm talking first shot, no sighters, hit a vitals-size (12" or so) target when I kicked out those ranges. I don't think a 300WM is a 1000-yd rifle in that context for most guys. Certainly not for me.

Jeff he has a point, if a 300wm with 200AB wont get you there I am pretty certain that a 7MM RM will not get you there as well.

It is all about what you want..... if you want your 300wm to be a 1000yd rifle all you have to do is put in the time. I can assure you that you have many rifles that are capable out to the ranges that you want to be comfortable at.

On the other hand you have a point as well. A 300wm is not a 1000yd rifle to most guys, hell for most guys 500 would be pushing it but the entire point of practicing and dedicating yourself to shooting is to not be like most guys.

The point is the 300 is a first round hit capable cartridge at 1K. A quality computer based targeting soft ware program and a quality long range scope is money better spent. Exact precise repeatable turrets are a huge plus. Go and shoot with Joe Cool I think that will advance your long range skills quite a bit

Keep the 06, retube the brass eating 300 to 7 Rem and rock on..grin. Then conduct the tests on your own.

You know me well enough to know that I'd go big 7 each and every time!

Dober

I shoot a 270 win. mostly and have 30-06s 7mm mags and 300 mag an 270wsm never shot over 375 yards but the 7 mag does it well very well the only thing I seen close is the 270wsm for killing at 300-400 yards .

Wait. We are losing focus here.

I have my 300WM, but it's in a Sendero format. I love it for what it is and indeed, it's my best platform. Your elk is proof of that. But it's a heavy be-atch. Not something I'm gonna be carrying around other than as a dedicated long range rig. Mostly I bought it for target fun.

HERE, I'm exploring whether a 7 WSM is enough better, in a light sporter rifle, than what I've got already to be worth messing with. If it buys me a higher hit percentage, extends my range. If it does that, it'll continue to do it even as I continue to get better, if that makes sense.

I have a very good 30-06, a very good .338, a good .325 WSM, a good 7mm-08. I have rifles, and I have been working hard with them for a while, pushing them as far as I can. What I don't have in a sporter format is a rifle that shoots high-BC bullets faster than about 2700-2800 fps... trying to suss out how much of a difference that actually makes.

OK, agreed to an extent but Joe Cool is running like 20-lb rifles in things like 338 Edge. I'm not approaching this from that angle.

I intend to hunt the high desert of Oregon and Hell's Canyon in the next couple years. If I can get set up with a light, portable rifle that does significantly better than the light, portable rifles I have now, then I might do that.

A big heavy rig is a whole other can of beans. A different question, and I agree, 7 WSM is not the answer to that question.

then the 7 is your huckleberry

It only makes a difference if the platform is readily easy to shoot accurately at distance and a light wieght platform is more times than not harder to hit consistantly at distance from field positions

That'd be my experience too. But again, for what I'm talking about here, a heavy 7mm isn't an option. If it was, I'd be exporing a 7 STW or 7 RUM or talking to you and JC about big .33's.

Come on, Jeff. A Montana in 7WSM firing 162gr A-Max's at 3100fps would be a SWEET rig. Just ask Larry

I know a montana would be the way I would go were I looking for a setup like Jeff. Which was exactly what I was looking for when I bought my 300wm and it exceeded my expectations.

Joe knows a lot about the long range game and what you learn can be transcended to your on arsenal.

I would agree with that, too. He stopped by to pick up some steel plates a couple months ago. Great guy!

It seems to me, call me crazy here, but it seems to me that if long range high-percentage hits are the game, then driving a high-BC bullet as fast as practical is the thing to do. And that's a whole can of worms, and it's pretty easy to start down the slippery slope and end up with a big, huge, flamethrower. I don't want that, I want the BEST light hunting rifle package I can set up and of course, I realize that's different than the BEST heavy package that one could set up!

I was pretty impressed with Heavywalker's kill on that elk... certainly not dissing 300 WM and mine driving 200-NAB's works great for me. My Sendero is going to remain my "main" LR rig but I ain't carrying that beast all around the places I'm planning on hunting!

That guy knows his stuff, and if he wasn't trying to piss everyone off all the time he'd be great to have around, eh?

Learning a rifle means shooting it a lot. Flame throwers as you call them are much harder on barrel and have a lot of muzzle blast. There are no short cuts to excelling at what one does. Shoot a lot and often and learn. Just throwing bullets down range doesn't help there must be good practice habits that translate into down range accuracy

Thanks, agreed 100%. I'm workin' on it.

Why do you need a sighter shot, before hitting your target?

Jeff the only way you will resolve 8 pages of blah blah blah is to buy the 7mm and shoot it along side your 30/06....

...we all know both are gonna work to 700 yards,and you're spinning anyway,so what's a few more clicks?And I sorta doubt there will be much differecce in how they kill(there never really has been).

OTOH if you get the 7mm and shoot it, you might discover(not real hard to figure out)that the 7 will shoot flatter from 300 yards out,which is where you're most likely to kill something.No mysteries here as this has been true about 7mm's and 30/06's for decades...no new discoveries.

I've shot them both a lot,but only to 600 because that's what's available to me.They both drop a long way at that distance.

Me?I'd grab the 7mm.

Because I'm not skilled enough, equipped enough, or both...

Thanks Bob.

Is it safe to say, you see a real-world, significant advantage to the 7mm mag over 30-06?

Or given equal skill, are they the same damn thing?

There is your answer, work on this area until first round hits are common place

Fer crying out freekin loud!!
Jeff! He just told you, there IS real world difference, told you it's from 300 yards on out. This is coming from one of the most astute game shots on the Campfire. What more do you want?

Fred

When I started out the experienced long range hunters recomended a 308 win to learn with. Get consistent long range hits with a 308 and you will have gained a great skill in wind reading, etc. Try to short cut the learning curve with faster rounds is not going to make you the best that you can be. Anyone that can read can look at a ballistic table and see the differrence in an 06 and a 7 mag. I have a friend that has killed a truck load of deer on crop deprivation tags with a 308 win out a tad over 700 yards very consistently

You will learn a lot with Joe Cool and you shoot your rifles

Jeff I grew to shootng and hunting open country in a day and age when there were no turrets,and no range finders;and the reticles were of limited use for distance. We were still faced with the prospects of a very occaisional opportunity at distances to 500 yards;on those times when 600 or so,I passed.

To deal with these issues,you simply shot a lot at targets and varmints and became pretty good at judging distance but it was still not as precise as today.We manipulated trajectory to get max PBR.....you know the drill,3" high at 100, etc.

Using this system,I learned pretty quick that,with the same sight setting at 100 yards,with top loads in both cartridges, the 7mmMags and 300 mags both showed less drop at 400-500 yards than the 30/06.This makes sense...the mags are faster;a 165 in the 30/06 is good for 2900;in the 300 Win Mag you get 3200;ditto the 140 in the 7 mag.They are simply faster and flatter than what you can do with the 30/06,and you could manipulate trajectory so that at 500 yards, you dealt with no more tha 24-25 inches of drop. This is manageable.

The 7 mag with this sighting has a significantly flatter trajectory for purposes if hitting vital zones.

Again, I am not trying to convince anyone this is a better system than dots or turrets;just a reflection of the field reality we had to deal with because we did not have the technology available today.

If you are spinning turrets to 700 yards, you are going to have to spin for both of them.

To further answer, yes, the skill sets are required for either one.Turrets and dots narrowthe gap quite a bit between the two cartridges....you will just spin more with the 30/06.

Again I still want the 7mm

I agree with Bob as I too grew up when there were no range finders & etc...for me long range is 400 yards...I can not see at the distances folks shoot at today...I have only shot 2 animals and this distance...both Coues Deer...David Miller use to recommend the 300 Weatherby and 165/150 I believe for long range Coues Deer hunting in Arizona and Mexico...my long range rifle has been the 264 Win Mag loaded with 140 NP at 3250..26 inch pre-64 bbl...

My 7mm Mashburn plans keep looking better and better every day!

CLB

The light and fast works fine at 400 yards but loses the battle past 600 and the farther out loses badly

4 some reason or another I totally concur with this...grin

Dober

Well, one thing that might have been said,but maybe hasn't....if a guy can't make first shot hits....with anything...at a given distance,he should not be shooting at an animal at that distance in the field....

You do not get free sighters when you hunt..such a shot is as likely to wound as it is to kill.

A different cartridge will not help.Flatter shooting, more powerful rounds are only helpful to a shooter who understands and has the requisite experience and skill sets to take advantage of the advantages they offer.

If your outside distance for first shot, cold barrel hits is 400 yards,then that is as far as a guy should consider shooting under hunting conditions.

And nothing is lost because you can't lose something that you really never had in the first place.

I think the problem with a lot of long range shooting today is not the gear that can be bought with the stroke of a check,but that many guys are about 50,000 rounds and 10-20 years lacking in the real world skill sets required to be really good at it.

All in all Bob very well said. I especially like the last paragraph!

Dober

Amen. Frankly, I'm not impressed by shooters who spend thousands of dollars on scopes. I'm impressed by shooters who spend thousands of dollars on primers

Well put Oregon! My old 700 is on it's 8th tube and pretty much ready for number next and I wouldn't trade my time with it for nothing..

I see game and I go into predator mode and the Mashburn will get it done far or close.

Dober

Two very true statements.

I've never shot any big game over 450 yards, but all things equal, if one combo has better ballistics and the same recoil, well I know which one I would prefer.

If I was proficient enough to exceed that range, I'd want that edge.

Dober, I don't want to pollute the OP's thread with my personal ideas but I do want to speak with you offline about the Mashburn. I melted Bob's keyboard one day last week via some PM's regarding his and his thoughts on it. Now I'd like to bounce a few questions off you if you don't mind.

CLB

I'll pm you my cell in a minute, call as you wish just remember the time diffs...grin

Dober

If you added the .338.340 to this, we could have called it the Bob Hagel thread.

Oh how we learn, that the past had class.

JW

Jeff all but one of my heavy dedicated long rang rifles weigh in at 12 to 14-lbs. If your 300 is accurate there shouldn't be no reason in the right conditions not to be able to get a first shot hit at 1000 yards.

Lots of good stuff from all and much appreciated.

I agree that the cartridge can help if a person is ready for it. I've attempted to explain that, having pretty thoroughly worked with my rifles, I have seen a real-world advantage from the two cartridges I've run high-BC bullets from (300 and .338 WM's). If I were basing my thinking strictly from what I've personally seen and done, I would extrapolate that yes, I will see a real-world advantage to a 7-mag over a 30-06, speaking strictly in terms of first-shot, real world results.

VarmitsInc's diagram showing the effects of a variable 3-mph wind (I think it was) was VERY telling. The area I shoot is the very definition of variable winds; that's the battle I fight up there. I've been up there on days when there were clearly 3 different wind vectors happening across a 600-yd shot! When I've been up there on nearly windless days getting hits is pleasantly easy. But that's very rare.

Bob- I'd postulate that what you and many other old-timers <bseg> call "flatness", and it's correlating goodness in terms of hittin' chit, was actually as much due to higher-BC bullets.... I mean you weren't loading light? Right?

At any rate, I will continue to load 4-5 rifles into the truck when I shoot, and continue to work hard at this, and if the gun gods don't allow me to get a 7-mag put together before my hunts I will grab my 30-06 and take the field with confidence in a great rifle that I know intimatly and that shoots very well. So it's all good.

Many thanks and good hunting to everybody! You guys rock.

Jeff--if we lived closer I'd let you take the Mashburn for a walk, you'll be loving it..grin

Dober

JM I was thumbing through "Game Loads and Practical Ballistics" by Hagel the other night,my dog-eared torn up old copy

...what a great book and great read that is.....I got to speak with him once many years ago;a great guy and a class act.Always enjoyed Hagel's stuff!

I do just love that rifle!

Only wish I'd done it 20 years ago......

I'm surprised that I did not read this comment earlier - or else I would have put in my two cents earlier.

The 7MM uses a smaller bullet and more powder.

The answer always is - the round that holds the most powder and uses the slowest burning powder that has a barrel long enough to burn the powder before the bullet exits the barrel will always beat a round that has less powder and uses a bigger bullet.

The Bullet coefficient - is larger in the smaller bullet, so when you use a 150 - 160 gr 7MM bullet - it appears larger then the 180 gr bullet in the 30-06, hence it retains more down range energy and because it's sectional density is longer - bigger, it will perform better then the 180 gr bullet in the 30-06.

The problem I have with shooting 700 yards is - that you have to use a powerful scope and most hunting rifles - for an average hunter does not have more then 16X magnification.

In my opinion - if I wanted to shoot 700 yards accurately - I would use a 48X scope. That gun would be of no use to someone who attempted to shoot it at less then 300 yards.

There is a big difference between being ethical and being a fool.
A fool - just lobs something out there and hopes and prays that nothing appears between the barrel and the target intended between the time that they pull the trigger until the time that the bullet finds a nice soft tree or earth to stop it.

My problem with that would be - what is over the horizon and what if you miss or something happens and the bullet travels further then you intended it to?

Not everything in this world is that cut and dried where you can just walk out the door and have your deer walk in front of your shooting range target and stand there and say shoot me please - unless you were baiting. Then you would not be a hunter in my book - just a shootist.

In my world - if you can get no closer then 700 yards to a dumb animal like a whitetail deer - then you are not much of a hunter.
And I do not know of anyone who would attempt to take a elk, bear or moose at 700 yards - not even Elmer Keith or Jack O'Connor.

Whatever......16x not enough for 700yards....thats funny. Glad I do not live in your world, because while I may could get closer, sometimes I choose to just send it.

Hell EddyBo, even a 10 works fine for 1K and that dude wants a 48 power for 700 yards.

Now that right there is funny, I don't care who you are

Gee, I wonder about those guys that shoot 600 yards with iron sights and put them all in 6 inches or so???

Hell I have shot 800 yard sub MOA groups with 3x9 scopes dialed down to 3x so I could use the bottom duplex as an aiming point. Differences between reading about stuff and doing stuff comes to light sometimes.

I like my big scopes, but I shoot all the time out to 650 yds (that's all the further my hillside goes before it jumps to 850 yds) all the time using 2.5-8, 3-9, and 3-10 scopes.

The 7WSM I'm lusting after would have a 3-9 or 3-10 scope on it.

And I won't be shooting any further (on game) than what I've practiced extensively and proven to myself that I can hit at. I'm pretty hard on myself in that regard.

Here goes the thread <grin>. Thanks for all the good info and enjoyed chatting with you Bob, Mark & Larry!

You really ain't shot much. A straight 4X Conquest gets me to 500 with no trouble. It would go farther if my range did.

A 1.5-5 Leupy got me out to 500 ......

I've shot that far with an open sighted revolver

Accurate range and corrections is what counts. Doesn't take huge magnification.

The British L42A1 sniper rifle with it's 3.5X optic was in service til the 1980s or so.

I still need one of those.

I dote on the Lee-Enfield, and that one is the final (and arguably the best - or right there with the Lee-Speed as the best - of the breed).

Yep, I need one of those.

That is good shooting. I have never tried a pistol long range but that sounds like a good time.

So have I...

But if it weren't for gravity..i wouldn't have hit the earth...

Gravity works every time

I'd like to have an L42A1 too.

It's just got a lotta 'old school cool' going on.

Would something like this work Sean...

Yeah, it does, doesn't it?

FWIW, I think I know where to get one done up as a repro (as the originals are just stupid scarce). If so, and it gets done, I'll let you know.

You suck.

I lust after that rifle, and you (ya dumbass) not only built it, but SOLD it.

That was mean....

A 9x scope is enough for me out to 1000 yards. I know because I've tried, unlike some on this thread

Just because I was mean, don't mean you weren't a dumbass... nor that I don't lust after that rifle.

Don't tell Duq' but I shoot my 308 to a mile at 8X.

By dialing power down, I can hold 20 mils (Gen II mildot reticle FFP), dial 22 moa, and be right in there. That's a total of 90 moa elevation correction.

So Jeff, what is wrong with packing that STW in the woods. This one totes as easy as any of my magnum bolt rifles. It shoots a 162 at 3200 fps without breaking a sweat. And recoil is not too punishing since I added the decelorator pad.

Remember, Hathcock and his platoon only needed ten power.

Wow. Pardon my ignorance, but that's a #1, right? And so you get like a 28" barrel in a rifle that's not too long... right?

Cool! How's it shoot?

#1-B comes with a 26 inch barrel. But to get her in 7 STW you will have to look at the used market. Ruger only made it for a year or two.

Some #1's shoot right out of the box, some don't. This one took a little tuning to make 1/2 moa with Sierra 160 SPBT or Hornady 162 btsp.

That puppy is too darn heavy for me to tote where I go, bet it's 10 lbs or so the way it sits.

Dober

HAPPY BIRTHDAY Dober!!

tanks man

Dober

Point taken.....

Dober, 2'nd on the Happy B'day.

The #1 is sitting on the scale right here, she runs 10 lb 8 oz including the ammo and a very heavy antique Burris 4-12 Fullfield II.

My Winchester model 70 classic in 264 Win weighs 11 lb 10 oz with the same amount of ammo and a Leupie 4-12 VX II. It also wears a wood laminate stock.

Wea MK V in 340 with 4-12 Leupie and factory wood weighs 11 lb 12 oz with same ammo and bipod.

The ammo weighs nearly a pound, it could be carried in a pocket or on the belt and of course several ounces could be saved if one left the bipod at home.

Dober: Happy Birthday!You are almost catching up to me!

Mark
Happy Birthday! (Bridger Bowl just called and asked you not to light the candles on your cake- They don't want to melt their snow base... :))

(Like, I should talk, huh?)

Happy birthday!

Fred

Happy Birthday, Dober!

Bob, it's funny how you metion this book as I just bought a copy last night! Can't wait to get it and dig in...

Chris

Happy Birthday again Dober! Enjoy the day.

Chris

Chris: It's a bit dated,but nonetheless very applicable.Not much bad advise in that book. You will enjoy it!

Now about that book, IMO it's my all time fav hunting and gun gack book! I'm on my 2nd copy (the one that Bob H signed for me, I'm a bit careful with this one..grin)

Dober

Howdy folks!

Learned how to use part of my software I didn't even realize I had... thanks, Jordan!

Here's a couple interesting charts. The first is the load I'm running in my '06, compared to what a 7 WSM "should" do with a 162-AMAX. This is a wind drift chart.



Interestingly, here's how a '06 could hypothetically fare IF a guy got an accurate 2700 fps load with the 208-AMAX. The 2700 fps is doable, the accuracy is the big "if" here...



Kind of interesting to look at, I thought, so there she be.

For giggles and chits, this is how a 300WM compares...

The top two charts show why I have some hope that if I choose to go down this road and do a sporter 7WSM, it would help (as much as hardware can) tame wind-induced squirreliness to the extent that's possible.

I just retired my 7 WBY for a new 30-06 Tikka T3. My 7 WBY will run with a STW any day but in the end a 168 gr TTSX launched at 2900 fps from my 30-06 Tikka will deliver the same damage at 700 yds. So why bother with a fussy 7 mag when an easy shooting 30-06 kills just as well? I am one for the '06.

Shooting with Joe Cool and learning h0ow to deal with the wind would benefit you far more. The calibers that you already have are very capable of consistent hits at 700 yards and beyond

Thanks.

JC and I keep threatening to make it happen. It's tricky. It's quite windy where he lives, often, which makes it hard to just plan on a day... and he's far enough away (2-1/2 hrs or so I think) that it's not just a spontaneous phone call thing...

I'm surprised to find you so resistant to the idea that high-BC bullets at 3100+ are a cool thing, John!

I am not resistant to higher BC bullet or velocity. Learning how to shoot long range consistently is the most important part of the equation and high BC bullets or velocity will help the learning curve, but practice with an accomplished shooter will. One can not purchase knowledge nor expertise

No, one cannot.

.

I think a guy should have both......

That's my thinking too, Bob. Can't see how increasing the precision level hurts anything.

But John isn't saying that, he knows... he's running very precise equipment (Nightforce, S&B) and high-BC bullets. He's just making the point that I've still got tons to learn about wind and could learn from a master, and what can I say, that's true, big time.

Variable winds, across a canyon with just "air" to read (IE, no vegetation etc) really gives me fits.

Jeff,

I took up LR shooting in earnest about two years ago. Shooting Tactical comps, training, and practice, I fired about 2200-308 Rounds through my rifle. Rebarreled to 7mm-08, I've put another 600 + through it in about 4 months.

A 308 will give about 6-8 K rounds before needing a new barrel. A 7mm-08 is good for about 3-4 K rounds.

A 30-06 should give about 5-6K rounds, and a 7mm Rem mag somewhere around 1.5- 2K rounds before rebarreling.

The key to shooting long range is practice, and lot's of it. If you cannot afford to plop for a $500 rebarrel job once or twice a year, then stay away from anything that shoots a high BC in the neighborhood of 3100 FPS.....

Just a thought,

Bob

Hi Bob,

Good point, thanks for bringing it up. Barrel life was a significant consideration when I got my "heavy" LR rig, a Sendero, a couple years ago. I stayed away from .264 and 7 RUM for just that reason (I went 300WM).

I'll be curious if others see a 7WSM is a 1500-2000 round tube. It's really 7WSM I'm interested in here. I put 7-mag in the title just because it has basically identical ballistics and many more people are familiar with it (and, of course, 30/06).

At any rate, in general I shoot a lot too, and have been playing the LR game in earnest like you for a couple of years. My round count this last year was the lowest in a decade due to money, primarily. So I hear you. I do spread my practice across a half-dozen rifles, from 7-08 to .338, and that's partly to not "use up" any given barrel too fast.

If I got my dream rifle tomorrow, a 7WSM Montana, I'd expect to spend a "few" hundred rounds in load developement and break-in. I already have a Montana so hopefully, I've run that part of the learning curve already (they are a little different to shoot well). Then I'd expect to put another 300-500 rounds through it in the next year before hunting season. Then the NEXT year would be the one where I'd either push it hard then rebarrel, or back off and make it last for another season.

But either way, rebarrels are part of the plan in general.

Jrff,

The 7mm WSM has around 80-81 grains case capacity. The 7mm Rem Mag is in the 85 grain range. Not a lot of difference in terms of meaningful barrel life. I would expect about 300-500 more shots out of a 7mm WSM barrel compared to a 7mm rem mag.

The 7mm Rem SAUM is the "best" of the mag 7's, with a 74 grain case capacity. You can still reach 2950 FPS with a 162 gr, A-Max, which is still pretty flat. The 7mm SAUM should yeild at least 500 more shots than a 7mm WSM.

Barrel life may not a be a big deal to a hunter shooting 50 rounds a year. But achieving and maintaining LR excellence means trigger pulls in the high numbers per year.

However, one sure way to get on your gunsmiths X-max card list, is to own a magnum, and shoot often.......

Better to buy a heavy barreled 308 or 7mm-08, shoot out the barrel in under two years, on targets north of 500 yds and then consider whether LR shooting is your thing or not.

It's cheaper to learn that way, then justing burning out barrels, or not shooting cause it's to damn expensive.

Regards,

Bob

Jeff, you are correct in what I am saying. My point is hone your skills until you you benefit from the higher performance round and the spend the coin

I have had a couple heavy-barrel .308's... a Savage and a 26" DPMS. Never shot the Savage at long range. The DPMS was crazy accurate and did get shot at long range.

Ended up selling it off to buy my Sendero. It was an ergonomics thing as much as anything. I don't want to change horses midstream- I'd like my hunting rifles to be as similar as possible- if not the same thing as- my LR practice rigs.

.... which is my point. What interests me most is practical riflery- getting real good with (mostly) sporter-weight rifles from field positions. Perhaps that explains my thinking here. A light sporter is not ideal. It's not the best platform. It seems to me that the 7-mag might make a significant difference in "reach" simply due to the obvious ballistic advantages- primary wind bucking.

Jeff I think you have the right idea. Wind is usually the limiting factor for long range hunting. The less effect wind has on a bullet, the longer your range. I help get a lot of guys started shooting long range. Until they have their feet firmly under them I tell them not to take a shot if the wind meter tells them that the wind will blow a bullet out of the vitals. Until they have a good deal of experiance I think it is a good rule to hold into the windward side of the vitals and not dial in windage. that way if you get caught in a let up you will still hit in the vitals. After a while and a lot of practice dialing windage becomes second nature as does watching the conditions.

Thanks Eddy.

Where I typically shoot (below) the winds are doing multiple things BUT the net result is typically 2-3 MOA of rightward motion. There's often up or downdrafts too. I was up there last week and it was crazy still... it was really simple to dink my 600-yd plate at will from prone. But that's unusual.

I've got an idea for a new spot. It's lower down, gives 600-1000 yards, is closer to home, and perhaps a little less windy, or hopefully easier to read what wind there is because it's not cross-canyon. I'll have to hike a couple plates into it though.

My main spot:

Jeff, I will take you up on your offer one of these days when the weather gets better. I've got a friend that wants to shoot long range real bad and I know you have an awesome place there. I'll PM you about it later, just wanted to let you know I haven't forgoten about your offer. Thanks, BSA.

Sounds good BSA!

Back from my cow elk hunt in Utah. A 30-06 with a 180 AB will take down a large lead cow at 375 yards. Would have tried 700 but there wasn't room or time to back up. Just kidding, I'm not so into the rong range thing I'd back up to get a further shot.

Bb

I would not back up either and long range is what floats my boat.

Lol. No backing up for me.

My "involvment" with the LR thing is to attempt to be proficient with each and every one of my hunting rifles, out to it's maximum range, which is usually somewhere between 600-700 yards if defined in terms of where it drops below 1800 fps.

As a HUGE side bonus, as I've fought my way towards 600-yd proficiency, things like 350, 400-yd shots have become chip shots (talking targets here). So that's worth it right there.

I'm stuck at home today waiting on a shipment of (inherited) furniture. Bummer. I'd be up burning powder otherwise.

I'll tell you guys one thing, the internet in general and the Campfire in specific are a tremendous resource! You still have to get out and do it but you can learn a lot from the guys ahead of you on the curve. THANKS!!!!

Sounds like you are doing well with the long range shooting, Jeff.

Good deal!

Thanks Tim!

I was up there today. It was a bit gusty but not too bad.

It was illustrative of why I'm contemplating the 7wsm. I started out with the '06 (165-NBT's at 2930 fps or so). First 4 shots were hits at 380, 460, 525, and 604 yards. Switched to my .325 Kimber (200-NAB at 2900 fps). First two were hits at 460 and 604.

So I was feeling a little saucy, and thinking, who needs a phookin' 7mm mag! Lol. But as I continued, the gusts and odds caught up to me and I had some misses....

... until I switched to the 300WM running 200-NAB's at 2860 fps or so. My closest thing to a wind-driller. Also a big, heavy rifle with a big scope with a scope level, 6-oz trigger, and so on. So it's impossible for me to tell for certain if bullet BC is the difference I'm seeing because the platforms are so different but man, it's sure easy to whack my 604-yd plate, even in wind, with that thing. Also got a first-shot hit on my big 850-yd plate but then missed a couple to keep me humble...

I have not decided what I'm doing yet <tm> but if I were a betting man, I'd bet I'll be buying and/or building a 7WSM just to see for myself if there's enough "more" performance there. If so- great! If not- great! Got a new rifle out of the experiment!

I then proceeded to just about kill myself packing a couple plates into a new area, much lower in altitude, with what seem to be MUCH more "normal" wind patterns. Stay tuned!

Jeff:I just don't see how you could go wrong with that 162 Amax.

Not looking at the tables as I type,but will bet it has ballistics/wind resistance as good as that 200 gr 30 cal,will start at 3100 or so(faster than the 30 cal)....in a lighter platform you can carry in rough country,and less recoil to boot.

Trying to figger WTH there is not to like.....

Was talking with my gun mentor on the phone last night... we agree there's no rational reason to do this- I am plenty well armed to hunt mulies, I've got 'em surrounded as you say <g>-- but yeah, for what I want, the various factors do converge rather neatly on a 7wsm Montana or, in distant second, a M700 in that or 7SAUM.

Finding a doner is the next step. I might get lucky and find a 7WSM Montana that shoots but they are rare items so I'm just planning on finding a cheap one and retubing. Then I can have it throated for a particular bullet. Not sure if I've quite drunk the AMAX coolaid enough to throat a rifle for it... but maybe, as long as that doesn't make it wonky to run things like the 160 NAB. Some head scratching there involving ogive location.

THEN, I can flop down in the dirt, with rangefinder and a box of reloads, and see for myself if the ~$1200 I just spent actually does give me anything concrete over my 30-06! And then, go kill a mulie next fall..... at 250 yards... Lol...

Highly likely.....

the ol' 30-06 will handle any situations easily out to 250 yards...and I have done it many times with the 200 BBC loaded to 2800.....but for the Best of the West shots you will most likely need the big 7s...

Do they shoot far on Best Of The West? I don't watch snuff films hunting shows much....

Just to be clear, I've got my '06 dialed to way further than 250 yds. Bob and I joke about how hard one works to be able to shoot "far" (whatever that means)... but then you end up shooting much closer.

I thought I left my Benchmade (knife) up at my new shooting spot the other day so I zipped up there to check my shooting position. No love on the knife but I did shoot the '06 a bit. It was giving an 11" plate a pretty good talking-to at 550.

I only watched Best of the West a few times but those guys made shots further than I can see...650-900 yards...using 7 mags and 168 Berger bullets....on elk, grizzly, bighorn sheep and antelope...

650 is not outside my goal set but I really have no interest in a 900-yd shot on game.

That's not to knock those that do. There are some very talented people out there. And, absolutely top-notch gear has got to help.

I can hit rocks at 1200....with a coach and someone elses rifle.......

Dial me in!!

Was that the Greybull rifle, Bob?

Yes , Jeff.John's 264 lays them in there...that rifle is a hoot!

A good 30-06 can lay game on the ground at 650 for sure and for certain, but so can a lot of other cartridges. Pick one that "floats your boat" and don't look back

Wow...650 yards... I have never shot at anything that far...

Me either! Nothing living anyway. And I may never...

This is kind of an interesting thread, but what concerns me a bit is that this is really a discussion about the ability to hit a target at long range more than what's going to happen, when and if it happens. Target bullets like the Amax are fine for deer because almost any bullet will kill animals this small. If we are talking about anything bigger, there is a serious consideration that needs to be given to terminal bullet performance. The NABs or TTSX that some of the guys suggested are imperative for performance on larger game like elk, especially if angles are difficult (quartering away). Unless we are not shooting anything bigger than deer, the flight characteristics of real performance hunting bullets should be considered. I'm just stating my opinion as something I would see as important to responsibly taking large game.

For me- it's a deer rifle. I've got a couple good mule deer hunts coming up and have been obsessing over "the best" light sporter for open country mulies.

Your point is a good one. The Accubond is a bullet I trust, and the 160-gn wouldn't suck for this, not at all. The Amax is intriguieing but a bullet that soft does give me the willies a bit <g>. So, I agree.

beartrack: we were originally talking about deer....at least I was.

Bullets that are soft and come unglued at normal ranges tend to work very well and penetrate well at distance as the velocity subsides and does not over work the bullet