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Campfire Tracker
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My 7mm Mashburn plans keep looking better and better every day!
CLB
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I agree with Bob as I too grew up when there were no range finders & etc...for me long range is 400 yards...I can not see at the distances folks shoot at today...I have only shot 2 animals and this distance...both Coues Deer...David Miller use to recommend the 300 Weatherby and 165/150 I believe for long range Coues Deer hunting in Arizona and Mexico...my long range rifle has been the 264 Win Mag loaded with 140 NP at 3250..26 inch pre-64 bbl... The light and fast works fine at 400 yards but loses the battle past 600 and the farther out loses badly
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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My 7mm Mashburn plans keep looking better and better every day!
CLB 4 some reason or another I totally concur with this...grin Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Well, one thing that might have been said,but maybe hasn't....if a guy can't make first shot hits....with anything...at a given distance,he should not be shooting at an animal at that distance in the field....
You do not get free sighters when you hunt..such a shot is as likely to wound as it is to kill.
A different cartridge will not help.Flatter shooting, more powerful rounds are only helpful to a shooter who understands and has the requisite experience and skill sets to take advantage of the advantages they offer.
If your outside distance for first shot, cold barrel hits is 400 yards,then that is as far as a guy should consider shooting under hunting conditions.
And nothing is lost because you can't lose something that you really never had in the first place.
I think the problem with a lot of long range shooting today is not the gear that can be bought with the stroke of a check,but that many guys are about 50,000 rounds and 10-20 years lacking in the real world skill sets required to be really good at it.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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All in all Bob very well said. I especially like the last paragraph!
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Campfire Outfitter
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I think the problem with a lot of long range shooting today is not the gear that can be bought with the stroke of a check,but that many guys are about 50,000 rounds and 10-20 years lacking in the real world skill sets required to be really good at it.
Amen. Frankly, I'm not impressed by shooters who spend thousands of dollars on scopes. I'm impressed by shooters who spend thousands of dollars on primers 
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Well put Oregon! My old 700 is on it's 8th tube and pretty much ready for number next and I wouldn't trade my time with it for nothing..
I see game and I go into predator mode and the Mashburn will get it done far or close.
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I think the problem with a lot of long range shooting today is not the gear that can be bought with the stroke of a check,but that many guys are about 50,000 rounds and 10-20 years lacking in the real world skill sets required to be really good at it.
Amen. Frankly, I'm not impressed by shooters who spend thousands of dollars on scopes. I'm impressed by shooters who spend thousands of dollars on primers Two very true statements.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I've never shot any big game over 450 yards, but all things equal, if one combo has better ballistics and the same recoil, well I know which one I would prefer.
If I was proficient enough to exceed that range, I'd want that edge.
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Campfire Tracker
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My 7mm Mashburn plans keep looking better and better every day!
CLB 4 some reason or another I totally concur with this...grin Dober Dober, I don't want to pollute the OP's thread with my personal ideas but I do want to speak with you offline about the Mashburn. I melted Bob's keyboard one day last week via some PM's regarding his and his thoughts on it. Now I'd like to bounce a few questions off you if you don't mind. CLB
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I'll pm you my cell in a minute, call as you wish just remember the time diffs...grin
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Campfire Tracker
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If you added the .338.340 to this, we could have called it the Bob Hagel thread.
Oh how we learn, that the past had class.
JW
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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Campfire Regular
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John, point taken and yes, I've got plenty to learn. Give me a sighter and I'm good. But I'm talking first shot, no sighters, hit a vitals-size (12" or so) target when I kicked out those ranges. I don't think a 300WM is a 1000-yd rifle in that context for most guys. Certainly not for me.
The point is the 300 is a first round hit capable cartridge at 1K. A quality computer based targeting soft ware program and a quality long range scope is money better spent. Exact precise repeatable turrets are a huge plus. Go and shoot with Joe Cool I think that will advance your long range skills quite a bit OK, agreed to an extent but Joe Cool is running like 20-lb rifles in things like 338 Edge. I'm not approaching this from that angle. I intend to hunt the high desert of Oregon and Hell's Canyon in the next couple years. If I can get set up with a light, portable rifle that does significantly better than the light, portable rifles I have now, then I might do that. A big heavy rig is a whole other can of beans. A different question, and I agree, 7 WSM is not the answer to that question. Jeff all but one of my heavy dedicated long rang rifles weigh in at 12 to 14-lbs. If your 300 is accurate there shouldn't be no reason in the right conditions not to be able to get a first shot hit at 1000 yards.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
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Well, one thing that might have been said,but maybe hasn't....if a guy can't make first shot hits....with anything...at a given distance,he should not be shooting at an animal at that distance in the field....
You do not get free sighters when you hunt..such a shot is as likely to wound as it is to kill.
A different cartridge will not help.Flatter shooting, more powerful rounds are only helpful to a shooter who understands and has the requisite experience and skill sets to take advantage of the advantages they offer.
Lots of good stuff from all and much appreciated. I agree that the cartridge can help if a person is ready for it. I've attempted to explain that, having pretty thoroughly worked with my rifles, I have seen a real-world advantage from the two cartridges I've run high-BC bullets from (300 and .338 WM's). If I were basing my thinking strictly from what I've personally seen and done, I would extrapolate that yes, I will see a real-world advantage to a 7-mag over a 30-06, speaking strictly in terms of first-shot, real world results. VarmitsInc's diagram showing the effects of a variable 3-mph wind (I think it was) was VERY telling. The area I shoot is the very definition of variable winds; that's the battle I fight up there. I've been up there on days when there were clearly 3 different wind vectors happening across a 600-yd shot! When I've been up there on nearly windless days getting hits is pleasantly easy. But that's very rare. Bob- I'd postulate that what you and many other old-timers <bseg> call "flatness", and it's correlating goodness in terms of hittin' chit, was actually as much due to higher-BC bullets.... I mean you weren't loading light? Right? At any rate, I will continue to load 4-5 rifles into the truck when I shoot, and continue to work hard at this, and if the gun gods don't allow me to get a 7-mag put together before my hunts I will grab my 30-06 and take the field with confidence in a great rifle that I know intimatly and that shoots very well. So it's all good. Many thanks and good hunting to everybody! You guys rock. 
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Jeff--if we lived closer I'd let you take the Mashburn for a walk, you'll be loving it..grin
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If you added the .338.340 to this, we could have called it the Bob Hagel thread.
Oh how we learn, that the past had class.
JW JM I was thumbing through "Game Loads and Practical Ballistics" by Hagel the other night,my dog-eared torn up old copy ...what a great book and great read that is.....I got to speak with him once many years ago;a great guy and a class act.Always enjoyed Hagel's stuff!
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
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My 7mm Mashburn plans keep looking better and better every day!
CLB 4 some reason or another I totally concur with this...grin Dober I do just love that rifle!  Only wish I'd done it 20 years ago...... 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Member
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I'm surprised that I did not read this comment earlier - or else I would have put in my two cents earlier.
The 7MM uses a smaller bullet and more powder.
The answer always is - the round that holds the most powder and uses the slowest burning powder that has a barrel long enough to burn the powder before the bullet exits the barrel will always beat a round that has less powder and uses a bigger bullet.
The Bullet coefficient - is larger in the smaller bullet, so when you use a 150 - 160 gr 7MM bullet - it appears larger then the 180 gr bullet in the 30-06, hence it retains more down range energy and because it's sectional density is longer - bigger, it will perform better then the 180 gr bullet in the 30-06.
The problem I have with shooting 700 yards is - that you have to use a powerful scope and most hunting rifles - for an average hunter does not have more then 16X magnification.
In my opinion - if I wanted to shoot 700 yards accurately - I would use a 48X scope. That gun would be of no use to someone who attempted to shoot it at less then 300 yards.
There is a big difference between being ethical and being a fool.
A fool - just lobs something out there and hopes and prays that nothing appears between the barrel and the target intended between the time that they pull the trigger until the time that the bullet finds a nice soft tree or earth to stop it.
My problem with that would be - what is over the horizon and what if you miss or something happens and the bullet travels further then you intended it to?
Not everything in this world is that cut and dried where you can just walk out the door and have your deer walk in front of your shooting range target and stand there and say shoot me please - unless you were baiting. Then you would not be a hunter in my book - just a shootist.
In my world - if you can get no closer then 700 yards to a dumb animal like a whitetail deer - then you are not much of a hunter.
And I do not know of anyone who would attempt to take a elk, bear or moose at 700 yards - not even Elmer Keith or Jack O'Connor.
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Campfire Tracker
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I'm surprised that I did not read this comment earlier - or else I would have put in my two cents earlier.
The 7MM uses a smaller bullet and more powder.
The answer always is - the round that holds the most powder and uses the slowest burning powder that has a barrel long enough to burn the powder before the bullet exits the barrel will always beat a round that has less powder and uses a bigger bullet.
The Bullet coefficient - is larger in the smaller bullet, so when you use a 150 - 160 gr 7MM bullet - it appears larger then the 180 gr bullet in the 30-06, hence it retains more down range energy and because it's sectional density is longer - bigger, it will perform better then the 180 gr bullet in the 30-06.
The problem I have with shooting 700 yards is - that you have to use a powerful scope and most hunting rifles - for an average hunter does not have more then 16X magnification.
In my opinion - if I wanted to shoot 700 yards accurately - I would use a 48X scope. That gun would be of no use to someone who attempted to shoot it at less then 300 yards.
There is a big difference between being ethical and being a fool.
A fool - just lobs something out there and hopes and prays that nothing appears between the barrel and the target intended between the time that they pull the trigger until the time that the bullet finds a nice soft tree or earth to stop it.
My problem with that would be - what is over the horizon and what if you miss or something happens and the bullet travels further then you intended it to?
Not everything in this world is that cut and dried where you can just walk out the door and have your deer walk in front of your shooting range target and stand there and say shoot me please - unless you were baiting. Then you would not be a hunter in my book - just a shootist.
In my world - if you can get no closer then 700 yards to a dumb animal like a whitetail deer - then you are not much of a hunter.
And I do not know of anyone who would attempt to take a elk, bear or moose at 700 yards - not even Elmer Keith or Jack O'Connor. Whatever......16x not enough for 700yards....thats funny. Glad I do not live in your world, because while I may could get closer, sometimes I choose to just send it.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Hell EddyBo, even a 10 works fine for 1K and that dude wants a 48 power for 700 yards.
Now that right there is funny, I don't care who you are
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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