Ok, Im gonna start loading my AR-15 for long range. (up to 1000 yds)

I have shot at 800 with it but with 55 grain NBT's and want a better bullet for that distance as it is really affected by the wind.

What bullet/powder combo would you choose? right now I'm leaning toward getting the 69 grain SMK and the powder????

Just started delving into this as a friend has a 1000 yd range and wants to get together and have some shooting fun.

Oh, my twist is a 1/9"

Will your barrel stabilize 77gr SMK's? If so it's got it all over the 69's.

From what I read I would need a faster twist.

69gr SMK and some accurate 2520 in your 1/9 should be a winning combo.Or get a 1/7 bbl and shoot 77g smk. They sure are fun to shoot at distance.

accurate 2520.....I will keep that in mind.

Thx

I'd try single loading the 75Amax. Gonna be hard to beat that bullet.

Not necessarily. I've had quite a few 1/9's that shot 77's very well. It'd be worth it to get a few and see WTF....

You also might look at the Hornady 75gr BTHP. Better BC than the 77s, magazine friendly, and works in a 1/9 twist.

Like Brad says, the 75 AMax will be your best option in a single load round, if it will fly in your 1/9 barrel.

77s shoot ok in my 16" 1/9 AR.

They went through a 100yd target at about a 45 degree yaw out of a 1 in 9 20in Bushmaster I had, this at 400ft MSL. Factory Remington Match.

Well it can't hurt to try the 77's....I'd rather be there anyway.

Keep em coming.

Thx

My plan this offseason is to teach myself turrets with an SPS Tactical in 223. I've got a VXII 3-9x40 with M1 and a stash of 68 BTHP, 69 SMK, 70 VLD, 75 BTHP, 75 A-Max, and 77 SMK to try. Thinking the A-Max and 77 SMK may be marginal but we'll give 'em a go. Should be fun

I shoot an AR-15 in .223 at 1000 yards. I shot it in FTR, F-class competition for a few years and reached Sharpshooter status with that setup.

Originally, I had a 24 inch barrel, 1:8 twist and was using the 75gr A-Max. I could push it fast enough to reach 1000 yards supersonically, but when it got cold (in south Texas), the bullets would come in right at or just below sonic speed. They did not keyhole, but they got a little uncontrolable and scores suffered.

My next barrel (the current one) is a 26 inch 1:7.7 twist Krieger and I switched from the 75gr A-Max to the 80gr JLKs. It was easy to keep the bullets solidly supersonic at 1000 yards and my scores increased and I reached SS, but that was it. These F-class targets are very small and even with the fairly high BC of the 80JLK, the bullets are a toy in the wind.

I also moly-coat the bullets and I have a CWS in the carrier, with the heavy insert. The charge is 25.5gr of Varget and I get about 2900FPS of MV.

There are ways to reach 1000yard supersonically with 80gr bullets in a 20 inch barrel, but that's usually a single use of the case. The USAMU calls that their V8 load.

In my experience, the 77gr SMK will not reach 1000 supersonically out of a .223 Remington/5.56 NATO. The BC just is not there, unless you are at 5000 feet altitude or it's 120 degrees outside in 100% humidity and the wind is at your back and you are shooting downhill.

The 75gr Amax or Berger VLD is a better bet, but the 1:9 twist is working against you.

The 69gr SMK is a fine bullet but will simply not make 1000yards. It was not designed for that.

Thanks you just rained on my parade.

I apologize. I didn't mean to mess you up, I just wanted to pass along some of my findings. A couple years ago, I switched from .223 to .308 in FTR competition and reached the next classification. 1000 yard is a challenge for the .308 and more so for the .223.

Tom264,

I fired the Sierra 80 grainers and Hornady 75 A-Max from my Savage .223 with a 9 twist. In fact the longest rock chuck with the 75 grainer was 527 yards. It was feeding straight away. The bullet enterd centered on the butt and exited below the chin.

Oh dont worry about it....I was just joking.

Thats the reason I started this thread.....to get into your guys heads that have BTDT.

Thanks for the info.

Tom264,
After reading this thread this is the most amazing thing, "800 with 55 grain NBT's".
Even out of a swift there is no group with 55grNBT's at 800yds, would love to see the target

Tom-lot's of good .223 info here. Scroll down to the AR section.

http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

How about a description of this high perf .223 AR? Details, man, details.

No targets, busting rocks and clangers.

"Tom264,
After reading this thread this is the most amazing thing, "800 with 55 grain NBT's".
Even out of a swift there is no group with 55grNBT's at 800yds, would love to see the target"

Don't be dismayed by using the Nosler 55 grainers. I fired one group of six shots from the .22-250 with a starting velocity of 3775 feet per second. The group measured five inches. But it was only 724 yards distance.

Nice..

If you have time try the Hornady 75 gr HPBT on top of 21.4 grains of H322. As others have said they are mag. friendly, and shoot great out of a 1 in 8 twist bbl

Dont want to derail thread but was curious if the WSSM would allow you to shoot to 1k w/20" tube 8t 75's up and repeater?

Way nice to have someone save you a few dozen hours of your life cycle

Sorry, for some reason I missed the details.

It is a Colt Match lower with a DPMS upper and a 1/9 twist heavy fluted bbl.

The trigger is a 1 1/2 lb Jard and the grip....I dont remember the name.

Scope is a Leupold Mark 4 8.5x25

Tom, that's very nice, a good looking rifle.

Here's what my LR AR-15 looks like:



Armalite receivers and free float tube. Kriger 26 inch 1:7.7 twist, Geissele trigger, Magpul PRS stock, Tubb grip, lots of enhanced internal parts.

Another look:

I like it!!

Heavy rifle, but it gets to 1k no problems and we won't even go into the group sizes at 100yards. I was able to put 22 rounds under 1 MOA at 300 yards in a match.

Nice FTR. Damn nice and I'm not even into "black guns". I do like accurate rifles though.

Pretty bad azz tom. Nothing like coming out of the closet with a vengeance. Keep it black buddy. Please don't paint it like ol skittles......Just sayin...

Lol, no I ain't gonna paint it.....though I did paint the Grim Reaper on it hence it's name.

Actually had this gun before I did the rainbow rifle and it hasn't changed.

GLAD to hear that!!! Hope you and your family have a great christmas...

You too buddy,

I better get to sleep.
Lol

.223 Remington/5.56 NATO

Makes a real good 'turtle cartridge'!!

FTR,

What scope do you have on that rifle?

And, I assume that is a .223-thus the FTR! Do you care to share your fav load for that rifle?

Thanks.

That's a Weaver T-36, 36X40, on a Brownells 15 MOA canted rail mount.


The load is 25.5 gr of Varget in a nicely prepared Winchester case lit by a Rem 7 1/2 primer, all topped by a home moly-coated 80gr JLK seated very long. Don't do this at home, I am a professional. (so to speak.)

pm jeff rost495, he shot the ar's in 1000 yd matchs

Tom264,

Shoot a PM to SSCoyote; he is a long-range subject matter expert. Real deal. I used his .223 AI AR to headshoot a PD @ 530 yards with his coaching.

Try the 77 MK's or Nosler 77 CC's over top 23.5 of Ramshot Tac and a CCI 41. If your rifle/ brass can take it, you can go as high as 26 of Tac. The 23.5 will get me to 950 ss and stupid accurate out of my 24" 8 twist AR-15.
I built this rifle years ago and forgot what make barrel, unfortunatly, as the rifle keeps most every thing ~ 1/2 MOA all the way out. I've shot rock chucks out to 652 yards with 60 grain BT's with it as well.

Thanks for the info guys I have a few avenues to take here, guess I'll see which does best.

I was able to get out today (beautiful weather) and shoot my AR....now I wasnt doing anything long distance...as a matter of fact I only shot it to 175 yds...but I did a bit of a ladder test.
I had Hornady 75 grain HPBT's and 75 grain Amax's....I am pleased to say my 1-9 twist stabilized them quite well though I did notice the Amax's seemed squirrelly at low velocity.
I had 20 rounds of each bullet starting with R15 in each case, I started at 24 grains on up to 26.1 grains of the R15.
Both my upper end loads where a hair over 2900 fps in my 20" barrel.
Anyway, I think my rifle liked the 75 grain HPBT's better than the Amax's as they seemed to be a bit tighter and the Amax's seemed all over the place at lower velos.
Oh yeah, I single loaded all bullets as I was .015" off my lands and couldnt make magazine constraints.
I am going to load up some more 75 HPBT's and continue with the upper end loads and get her sighted in and stretch her out and see how she does.

1:9 is kind of a slow twist for the 75 A-Max, which is why it only stabilized at the higher velocities. I would concentrate on the 75HPBT, and you might also look at Berger's offerings in the range also.

Finally 2900fps+ is a little fast in a 20 inch barrel, that may be a bit of a hot load there. You might want to take some measures to mitigate the pressure.

Thx, I did notice my primers started to flatten on shots 19 and 20 with each bullet as the powder loads were 25.9 and 26.1 grains...
Problem is that is where along with load 18 that it was the tightest with the ladder test.
I have read about R15 and temp sensitivity and today was 54 degrees out, I imagine when it hits 90 I may really be a bit hot.

26.2gr of 15 is what I run in 223ai w/75's w/lapua brass. 26.5 in rp brass.

Jeez, thks. Dan, Was fun though wasn't it?

I shoot the 223 AI in an AR with pretty good results to intermediate ranges on coyotes. 600 is about the end of it though for me. I originally shot the 65 JLK Low Drag out of this rig and that was the most accurate bullet it ever shot [9T 26" Hart barrelled Insight Shooting Systems--www.insightshootingsystems.com ] at any distance. 75 A-Max might have done better had it been 8T instead. Used the old DPMS VLD magazine and it worked well.

Here's mom with it at 425--



Here's the DPMS VLD mag. [now discontinued] with 75 A-Max at new mag. length--

I have a bolt Action Savage heavy barrel, with a one in 9... however it will shoot 80 grain and down bullets with no problems at all...

can't speak for an AR, but the 1 in 9 the Savage has not had problems with any bullet it has been fed...

and like Shane/Montana Marine said, the Hornady 75 gr HP Match bullet is MORE accurate than the 75 grain A Max...as is the 80 grain A Max...

I believe I have discovered that too....it was way more consistant.

I will be buying a bunch more of these, not sure if I will make it to 1K but will get as far as possible.

Seafire,

LIke you I fired the 80 grainer in my Savage .223 with tht nine twist. The best I could do with them was ten shots in 2" at 300 yards. But they did group rather than scatter.

When I tried them in my twelve twist at 100 yards they made perfect profile bullet shaped holes.

The way I look at it if the bullet is less than an inch long, it should be (underline "should") be stabilized in a 20 inch 1:9 twist barrel. As you get to the inch and longer, the barrel had better be longer to get a higher velocity or you need a faster twist.

A good example of this is the 77rg SMK. Its length is .985 inch according to the bullet database, right on the cusp. Lots of people can shoot it in a 1:9 twist, but lots of people can't stabilize it. This is due to variations in the twist in the barrel, but it shows the tipping point and I'll bet some strange things happen when it gets really cold and dry. The 75gr A-max is 1.07 inch and the HDY 75HPBT is .98. Higher velocities should allow a 1:9 twist to stabilize the 75 A-max and that's easier to achieve with a 24 or 26 inch barrel.

A long range shooter should know the length of his or her bullets and make selections accordingly. Of course, empirical data always trumps theory, because in theory everything works.

Probably why the Amaxs got a little squirrely for me at lower velocities.

That might have been because the 75 A-max was not quite completely stabilized.

Crap, you are fast. Exactly what you said.

LOL

That's my exact load for 223 AI with 75 Amax.

Well Rich,

2 inches at 300 yds is pretty decent to me..

but I usually am better at longer distances... an optometrist over at the range was telling me that is due to depth perception problems...

not that I am a benchrest shooter...or a good 1000 yd competitor...

I've competed in a 1000 yd shot or two... and usually was close to last place... but I was pretty happy with the groups I was getting for myself...

at 600 yds I was happy all my shots were on an 11 x 14 sheet of paper...

I am sure with Better optics, and trigger I could have done better... or a professional could have done better with my rifle... I was using a 6mm Rem and a 6.5 x 57...

I did compete with the 75 grain HP Hornadys at 600 yds and the Savage, with an 8 x 32 scope on top...Tasco Custom Shop Model... and the rifle did pretty darn well...

I think with a 20 degree Picatinny Rail, that would have helped also...

Good luck with that...

I would suggest trying the heavest bullet your rifle will shoot accurately at 300, crony the load, and run a balistic program with the results. Your bullet must remain SS at 1K.for best results on paper, but you probably already know this.

I have my doubts you will be able to do this with what you have.

I do to but it can't hurt in trying.

As an aside I ran my current #'s through my ballistics program and at 1K it would be going 1130 fps.....on the cusp.

It's not the FPS that is important, it's the Mach number. I try to make sure my bullets are above Mach 1.25 at the target because this is the speed where compresibility disturbance begins. As you know, the speed of sound in air is almost completely dependent on one single thing, and that's temperature.

You also need to remember that as air temperature drops, air density increases and your bullets slow down faster and that will show on the 1000 yard target.

My .308 load is above Mach 1.4 at the 1000 yard target and that makes me happy.

jbmballistics shows the Mach number, make sure you set the temperature correctly. Humidity has some influence but it is very minor.

OK, I can see that.
Amazing what you learn on this site.

Well, average air density, to be technically correct, but who's keeping track?

Of course temperature, altitude, and humidity all affect air pressure, and in turn, air density.

When I ran my numbers my program takes into account my current weather conditions and altitude.....its a program on my cellphone.

Also ran a Mach conversion and came up with 1.003566434

At 1K

That will do 900, 8 for sure. Not 1k.

But like you said, It`s fun to try.

I am. Do some research; only temperature has any measurable effect on the speed of sound.

With a university background in physics, I've done the research

I'm not debating the fact that temperature has a large and primary effect on the speed of sound through air, but it does not represent the whole story. It is simply one factor.

Elasticity of the matter (gases being the medium through which waves travel the slowest), temperature, molecular mass, and density all affect the speed at which a sound wave travels through said matter.

Also wanted to point out that temperature and pressure/air density are directly proportional. So to say that the speed of sound is density-dependent, or pressure-dependent (in a gas), is correct, and is the same as saying that it is temperature-dependent.

Jordan...you've gotta be one of the dumber guys on this site

Hope your rig does alright at 1k Tom, that'd be pretty sweet to push 75s all the way out.

Wonderful.

The approximate formula is as follows:

Speed of Sound in FPS = (2402*(460+T))

Where T is the Outside Air Temperature in Farenheit.

So for -20: 1028fps; 32: 1087fps; 50: 1107fps and 68: 1126fps.

I'm adding a -40 for your area: 1004fps.

I simplified it from the one here:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/speed-sound-d_519.html

You might want to look here also:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-speedsound.htm

Those formulas apply under the assumption that we are working with dry air, and in an adiabatic (constant heat content) system/atmosphere.

Unfortunately, in the real world we often have to deal with fluctuating levels of humidity in the air, as well as varying pressures and altitudes.

I initially threw in my comment just to give you a bit of a hard time over terminology, but you seemed to want to turn the topic into a debate. You were right, in that temperature is still the factor that has the biggest impact on the speed of sound in air, by a long shot. But temperature affects pressure/density, and visa versa, so temperature isn't the only factor at play, here.

That just means that I have to work a little harder than other guys to make it in this world

The altitude is important as the higher up you go the less dense the air is so the bullets don't slow down as quickly. On the other hand the temperature may go down some and that will increase the density of the air, somewhat negating the gains you made with the higher altitude. JBM is extremely good at keeping all these parameters together, but it is important that you give it the proper parameters.

As you discovered, your bullets are on the ragged edge of Mach 1.0 and you are in for some surprises at 1000 yards. You have to push the heaviest, highest BC .224 bullet as fast as you can to do well. With a 30 inch barrel, a 1:8 twist or faster and a hefty load of powder you can do it fairly well, but when the wind starts blowing, forget it. I fought with that stuff for a couple of years of competition and just moved on to the .308, (which is still a challenge at 1000 yards.)

As I said earlier, the .223 and the .308 are handicapped at that distance, but the .223 is much more difficult.

On the other hand, 800 yards is a lot of fun with a good .223 LR load.

You and you're damn physics background, making everyone feel inadequate.

Well if I only make it to 800 yds I will still be happy....that still quite an accomplishment with a .223

Thanks for your help.

Pictured above is one of my match AR's. This has a 6.5" twist 26" pac-nor barrel specifically to shoot 90 grain bullets.

I hope I don't get too long winded on you but your thread caught my attention and I have a story to tell.

I am a master class high power cross course shooter and back in the early/mid 2000's a group of us that love the ar platform and what it has meant to high power competition decided to make them viable for long range competition as well (1000 yds) cross course matches max out at 600 yards and is considered mid range.

There were about half dozen of us including high masters, member of the army marksmanship unit and air force marksmanship unit, and other master class shooters. We were mainly shooting JLK 90 grain bullets because at the time they were the only place you could get 90's. 80's work great at 600 yards but they don't perform well at 1000 yards and we shooting a mix of 223 ai, 223 rem in both match and service rifle competitions. After a season of putting this to a serious test including the long range championships at camp perry everyone came to the same conclusion. The .223 is not a 1000 yard cartridge. You really need at least a 6mm bullet to compete at 1000 yards and maintain any accuracy. I could go into this greater depth but don't want to put you to sleep with the details. As a 600 yard rifle the 223 ar is fabulous and I really love the AR platform but I think if you want to shoot accurately at 1000 yards look elsewhere.

I can also tell you after being in the pits in the early days of ar's in 223 that 55 grain bullets do not consistently stabilize at 600 yards. When they are bouncing off the burm right above your head or dropping in the pits or hitting the paper side ways you realize that in a hurry. Most ranges I shoot matches banned the use of 55's on the 600 yard line.

At 1000 yards it is important to hold the 10 ring and maintain a high x-count. 10 ring is basically moa and x ring 1/2 moa and the 223 just off the cuff of being able to perform. With 77's and a 9" twist you really don't stand a chance.

(Why do I even bother?)

Let me correct a few things on southwind's post. The LR-1 target's X-ring is 1 MOA, not 1/2 MOA. The FC-LR1 is 1/2 MOA and that's not what is shot at Camp Perry. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, literally. I shoot F-class, I know the target sizes.

The 10 ring is 2 MOA for southwind.

Tom264, you can make your .223 Rem sing at 800 yards. I've thrown about a 1000 75 Amax to 1000yds and they really just don't work well; the planets have to be aligned. I've thrown a couple 1000s 80grainers at 1000 yards and they work better but when the wind picks up, you're left scratching your head.

Enjoy the 800 yards and I look forward to your range report.

FTR is completely and thoroughly correct about the moa on ring sizes, my bad. He is also right about 75 amax's at 800. I don't and didn't want to discourage you from anything you are doing. My point is plainly as much as I love the .223 it is not a 1000 yd cartridge. I wish it were.

That's good to know. I'm just about to get into F-TR, and I'm using a .223. Have you played with the 90gr Bergers much? I've read of some guys here in Canada that have been having good success out beyond 1000 with that bullet, but that's a limited sample.

Any thoughts, fellas?

No. I have not played with the 90grainers but there are a couple of guys at our club who shoot the 90Bergers and the 90JLK. I'm not sure about the Sierra.

They do pretty good under very light wind conditions, but when the wind really gets nasty, they seem to lose it faster than I do.

Yep, even at 6 in nasty wind, I`d do the 308.

Is that you "Flatlander"?

I was waiting for Rost to weigh in on this topic, since he was one of the first ones to do something with the 90's. I agree with you that the 90's were kind of an out of place bullet for Match Rifle, and the true benefit had it been successful would have been in Service Rifle where we are caliber constrained. There have been a few folk winning with the 90's out of a 20" Service Rifle like Rost, Scandale at 1K in the Porter Trophy and Hatcher at 1K in the Interservice Championships, but it looks like even the AMU has walked away from them. I'm still sitting on a few thousand, and have a fresh 6.5 twister for when I pick it up again.

BTW, that looks like one of John's Uppers. Did you go with the Holliger throat?

Havne't made time to comment yet..... too tied up with life, fire calls, work etc....

I'd grab my 90 jlks in a heartbeat for 1000 any day in my service rifle....even today.

Not constrained by caliber.. it would not be 223 though.

Ok, just a bit of time here if the damn fire pager doesn't go off....

Glancing through I saw some notations that a 75bthp is more accurate than a 75 amax and in the years I shot I NEVER EVER saw that. Doens't mean its not so now. The 75 bthp was accurate but when pushed hard it fell apart. IMHO the base was such that it could not stand pressure.

THe 75 amax, if built right, was accurate. Though I"ve never shot one past 600 yards in matches. There were some bad runs... I used to be able to measure the OAL of an amax and tell you whether it would shoot or not... I don't have those figures anymore...

Also in 20 inch tubes, a TRUE 9 twist will stablize any 80 that we ever shot. But they were not mild loads... Not wanting to shoot any of the mag length handicap bullets like 75 or 77 etc we never tried those, though I know a competitor that ran 80 bergers and sierras in his 9s and did run 77s for 300 rapid so that was working at that point....

I was in service rifle, and that limited me to 20 inch tube, and 223 ( for my choosing anyway as the complete platform and bullet equaled or outperformed the M14, IMHO, platform).

To get to 1000, and trust me I tried a number of ways to do it, there was a tiny window of formula.

6.5 twist, 7 will not stabilize 90 jlks. 90 JLKS were the bullet, 90 sierras and bergers lost enough BC that they were not worth the trade offs IMHO. Bergers would be a go to before Sierras.

3 groove Pac Nor barrels, I tried even groove and the pressures would raise before you got to the right speeds. With Pac Nor, you would occasionally run into a tube that was not quite up to par, but I just had to deal witht that since we paid to have them tool up for 6.5 and since Krieger would not cut a 3 groove instead of 4... much as I like Krieger barrels.

Then I told John Holliger that I wanted case capacity, so he designed a reamer, for the 90 jlk specifically, and it worked great with all the short range bullets too because the neck diameter was not excessive, much like a Wylde.

Coated bullets, non coated ones you lost speed with that you couldn't afford. Moly for me personally and I"ve never had a single problem with moly.

Powders... Viht N500 series. 540 and 550 just depending on the lot and burn rates. N500 doesn't show best accuracy until you get to pretty warm loads, someone had warned me of that and its amazing, once we got to pressure, it just shrank groups.

A couple of other things, more case capacity, IE lighter casees, seemed a plus. Never disregard primers as they can do amazing things both good and bad, to group size, AND can actually speed up or slow down a load. My go to with N500 in this combo was CCI 450 and or M41s. But don't discount testing.

Once all that was done, you could scare 2800 fps from a 20 inch tube with the 90 jlk with a BC that was fired and calculated with a pair of chronos to be around .555 to .560 which is a hair less than they advertise but still high enough.

I don't want to give charge weights since I dont' know what the burn rates have done lately.

I will say that by comparison of pressures most of my 90 grain stuff was sitting around 60kps or 62kpsi IIRC, Chris may be able to confirm that if my memory is wrong. Over what book calls for but I have never had a qualm with 60 in the AR. There is NO reason it won't and can't handle it. Plus I"ve seen folks burn out more than a few tubes running quite a bit over that from my "guess" vs what I was shooting and never had an issue. Of course I won't use loads that loosen primer pockets etc...

I was getting an easy 5 loads from my LC brass, and then it went to practice which meant usually another 5 of milder loads...

IMHO if you want to shoot SR and 1000 yards this is still the only real way to get there. I really wished I could make time to pick it up again, i"d like to shoot a 200 at 1000 with the AR, and since AMU did it after taking a bit of my loaded ammo home with them, I know its workable. My main issues at 1000 were always post front sight and elevation shots on the target. not so much wind, but elevation issues. I know how to handle that now IMHO, but have not shot much since I figured out the real sight picture to use.

BTW I still roll with results on targets as to accuracy, vs the hoopla over SD and ES... I shoot generally starting at 300 yards, start tweaking ammo at 600 and then test at full distance the last variables. I know about how fast my ammo is running, but I don't pay attention to ES and SD much as the best numbers I"ve ever seen have been some of the worst grouping ammo I've ever shot. So I base my accuracy, on what the holes in the paper at actual distance tell me. By default once you get to 900-1000 the SD/ES has to be decent to not run into elevation shots, but I sure don't dote on having to have low single digits....

Hope this helps in some way.

Jeff

Wow that's alot of info, give me a few days to read over a few times and let it soak in.
Thanks.

a few days. Haha. It took more than a few years to come to some of those conclusions.... and granted the 90 jlk in 223 with 20 inch tube is a rare bird but its what I worked with due to the limitations when wife and I choose to shoot ONLY service rifle regardless. Had many a happy moment doing it though.

I loved your rambling. As I always do.

I'm still impressed that you can get 2800FPS in a 20 inch barrel with 90gr bullets and still believe that your pressure is not at 75kpsi+.

All I was able to "scare up" with my 80s was in the mid 2900's with a 26 inch barrel and I knew I was on overload.

Ammo was done on comparison with that Oehler thing.. I don't own one..

All I can say is I suspect that 75 plus would open my primer pockets...

60 doesn't bother me. And as noted, it took a lot of combos IMHO to make it work. Given a bunch of things you'd be at 75, run it in a Krieger, with heavy brass, uncoated bullets, non N500 powder, and the wrong chamber... nah, you couldn't get there anyway in hell IMHO.

IIRC my settled on load was something around 2760 or so, so not a true 2800, but I did run up to 2800 and that was starting to show true pressure signs, big ejector marks, pockets starting to be iffy AND the accuracy was falling off and it took too much additional powder to bump it that far. Not that 50 fps or so makes that much difference.

Of course I don't recall what all I tried to figure, but I also konw that maybe somewhere around 2650 it was a loosing battle. IE the wind drift would be more like a hot 80 jlk..

As to barrel length, a bunch of us realized a long time ago, for whatever reason, much past 20 inches in 223 just really did not gain enough for it to be really worthwhile. IE 24 or 26. That being said we never had a 30-34 inch tube to try so can't comment if that would help. BUT I never could use one legally so I never searched around to see if there was a powder that would or could take advantage in a 223 case of the extra barrel.

IIRC the difference we saw from 20-26 was about 100 to 150 fps max...

Just for ref:

Hornady Match Bullets 22 Caliber (224 Diameter) 68 Grain Hollow Point Boat
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.355

Sierra MatchKing Bullets 22 Caliber (224 Diameter) 69 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.301

Nosler Custom Competition Bullets 22 Caliber (224 Diameter) 69 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail
Ballistics Coefficient: 0.305

Jeff, now that makes more sense. I can see the 2750 as a hot but not gross over load. The 2900 FPS that I settled on worked well for me in the 26inch barrel but moving to the long .308 bullets made life simpler for me.

It did, however, take away a number of excuses.

Denys

And while the higher bc of the hornady bullets was always intriguing, in a number of instances, 75 bthp and 68 bthp are 2, one never could be driven fast enough and maintain accuracy, and the other while close, never would shoot as good as the 69 smk.

The point being you have to know where your trade offs are at.

Denys... yeah, I got to the point where I KNEW if it was a bad shot it was me... and yeah, thats really actually a good thing regardless of how much it sucks.

Hornady has always claimed higher BC values than what I could account for. They were always on the optimistic side, especially the .22 caliber bullets.

They aren't the only ones.. JLK was too, but I learned that his were close enough and if I'd subtract about .025 or so I'd be pretty close...

Never shot enough Hornady past 300 yards for me to worry about drift and such compared to their numbers, though their numbers did seem really optomistic.

Of course on any given day I don't care so much about the actual number( they can change) vs the relativity of the numbers...

Man this is volumes of info. that can't be gotten anywhere else--thks. guys for the info.

Jeff, as I said earlier (I think, this is a long thread,) I have shot quite a bit of Hornady 75 A-max, throwing them to 1000 yards. The BC was not what was claimed, or anywhere close, by maybe 50-75 points. When it was hot outside and humid, they flew ok but when it got cold(ish) and dry, they ran out of steam a hundred or more yards before the target. To their credit though, they did not keyhole on the target after going subsonic.

When I switched to the 80 JLKs, I got solid supersonic at 1000 and the elevation I was getting was right in line with the claimed BC and JBM. There are other people who shoot the 80JLK at the club and they like it.

When dealing with the .308 JLK LBT, I calculated the G7 BC using Litz's formula and plugged that into JBM and that seems to work well. You should know that the G1 BC is not terribly useful for the long range, especially when you are dealing with rapidly diminishing velocities. Bryan Litz convinced me that G7 was the better way to go. That's my story and I am sticking to it.

(Note. JBM has been adding lots of G7 BC values to the various bullets in its repertoire and that is very nice.)

Pretty good info there again Denys.

And yes on G7... excepting that while I run with it now if I can, I had not heard of that in the late 80s into the 90s...IE that G7 was a much better run

Bayou has had more than a few folks running 80 jlks for some time now and happy with it. At least once the move to the 223 was fairly common.

There was a time and place when I got laughed at for paying for JLKs.... especially the time I had just been MU and got my first card as an EX a few weeks before Perry and laid down with JLKs and the M1A and fired a couple of 196-197s at 600 yards my first year at Perry...