I am thinking I want to build a gun for long range shooting and yet still be able to carry it for calling yotes and general shooting fun. I don't want it to weigh like a bench gun so I am thinking in the 7-8 lb range. What twist would a guy use to shoot the 6mm 87's and the 105's? Would you stay with an 8 twist or slow it down just a bit? The reason I ask is that I am thinking about starting my first build and I think I want to do a 6mm of some sort. Leaning towards the 243ai, but just in the beginning stages so I haven't decided that yet. I don't know anything about putting a rifle together yet; except that I want to build one. Any help would be appreciated.

Reno

1:8" will do everything you want. If I was going to set up a 6mm starting from scratch, hands down it'd be a 1:8, 243 A.I. or 6XC. I really think that 24" is enough tube to get you anywhere you want to go. 105Amax would be a great one to design around.

Have fun! sounds like it should be a blast of a rig.

I'm thinking a 700 ADL action would be pretty slick. I like the looks of the blind mag. Who would you go with for a barrel? I have a couple small cal rifles with Pac-Nors on them and they work very good but didn't know who else I should be looking at.

I use a blind mag on mine... Never yearned for anything else.

I have no experience with custom 6mm barrels, I'll let someone take it from there.

I'd select the smith I wanted to use and go with the barrel maker he prefers. Those guys know the turn around time and the makers who best stand behind their products.

IMHO,

DF

Which leads me to my next question of who would you all recommend. I have no idea of who the good gunsmiths are. Any suggestions??

OK..

First build and long range but 7-8lbs is pressing the edge a bit...
First build and not sure what to do but you wanna go AI..not advised...

This rifles weight is 10.25 lbs ( without bi-pod) that's about as light as I'd like to go and poke at targets beyond 450 ish.



IF your gonna shoot the 87's-105's go 8.5 twist.

just for S&G's why 6mm and not 6.5mm ... ;-)

I build some 6x47 Lapuas. With a 8 twist and 105 Berger VLD'S the velocity is 3105 fps. I have shot mine at steel targets to 1146 yards. Thats hard to beat!

My smith is Ray Bowman at Precision Rifle and Tool in NC. Ray is about to do my 6th project with him. He's into precision, long range rifles, but builds all kind of stuff, like DG rifles for Africa. He's a retired Operating Room RN and a master machinist and craftsman. He has patents on surgical instruments he made over the years. Interesting guy to know and a pleasure to work with.

Check him out on line.

DF

Talk to me about how your FF or re-size that brass?

This is the 6 X47L or 6mm Hot as they call it no?

What length barrel and why not the 8.5?

This cartridge has always got me piqued I just never pulled the trigger on an order.

Ric let's hear about that 6.5! Looks great!

Coca, why would you suggest that I not go with an ai?

I am looking for something that will fill a void between my 223 and my 25-06 sendero. I have heavy guns if I want something to sit at the bench with. I am wanting to make this more of a walking gun with the ability to shoot distance sometimes. A lighter 243ai seems to fit this niche for me.

Jump up to 6.5 100gr 3700fps 77gr 4000+?

Reno...look into Dana English from FL and the mountain rifle he builds. Not sure of your price range but he just built me a 260 rem that is the most accurate rifle I own. PERIOD... 7lbs rigged

www.englishrifles.com/rifles.html

Reno,

I suppose I was thinking that since you are new to builds you are new to the gamut of things. ie: Reloading, Fire Forming etc.

If you are new to the reloading end of things and whatnot.. fire forming combined with load work ups and reloading in general is typically not something to get your feet wet with.

While 6mm are the rage in many venues the 6.5's tend to stretch things more efficiently. Now in my opinion if you are staying at let say 500 yards or less. 105's will work wonderfully on deer sizedish game or smaller. No need to AI unless you want the cool factor.

Rogers Rifle Shops latest 6.5-06 hammer ;-)

He took the typical stuff and made a tack driver outta it...

per his usual.

6MM BR, 8 twist, Lilja #4, or Kreiger #4.5(can get it stainless), and enjoy the long barrel life, accuracy, and killing capability of a 6MM with a 105 .

If'in goin that route...6 dasher would be a better choice... jus' sayin'

I guess I am thinking of going with the 243ai because I have always wanted something of PO's and this seems like a good fit for me. I have been reloading for 15 years so while there is much I do not know I do have some experience with FF and load development. Have owned and loaded for the 17AH, 17 Mach IV, 20 TAC, 17-223 and all the way up to my 338 RUM and the Whelen. Like I said there are many things I do not know but I believe I can handle it. Before anyone says anything I know the 17AH is an Ackley but that did not scratch the itch, if you know what I mean.

I would not be trying deer sized game at 500+ with this rifle. If I need to get out there I will get out the 338 RUM for the long shots. 500 yards would be stretching what I am comfortable with at this point anyway. I want something that I can practice with and I just like the 6mm. I have the 17, 20, 22, 25, 27, 338, & 35 calibers covered so this just makes sense to me I guess. I know the 6.5's are darn good and I'm not saying I don't want one I just want the 6mm more for now.

There are just so many choices I am glad I have the people on the fire to help me figure out what to do. I would say "what I need" but need has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is just more of a want at this point.

Would you guys go with a tuned Remington action or I have thought about getting a Stiller also? I want to keep the 700 footprint and I believe Stiller is the exact same footprint as a 700 but I could be way off base.

Stiller's foot print is the same as the 700. Good action I've had several of them.

A good smith and a remmy will do the same thing. If the smith knows how to pick actions.. ;-)

and Dan Dowling would be tickled to do a 6 Dasher!

He's one hellufa nice guy and fun to talk with.

http://www.6mmbr.com/schatz1000.html

No doubt about it. I live about 2 hrs from him and will be going to school about 25 min away from his shop in the fall. I'd love to see if he needed any help around the shop ever.

The reason I suggested 6BR is no fire forming, and simplicity. If you're thinking .243AI, you're going to be fire forming cases. If that's the case...I'd go 6 Dasher and never look back.

When you get to thinking about Fireforming it's pretty small potatoes I think... with the quality of some of that BR brass, 100-150 cases should last you the life of the barrel. Maybe even fewer cases would...

For me, that's just an afternoon or 2 of letting little sister shoot pumpkins or cans or whatever at the 100 yd line.

But the 6BR seems to do just fine as well

"Zackly.....

95% of the 243 performance with 8-10 grains less powder.

10 of the top 10 (that's damn near 100%) shot 6 Dashers in last year's 2011 IBS 600 yard Nationals.

BTW.....

I usta shoot BR with Dan Dowling in Porcupine SD, and have had him build a bunch of stuff through the years, including my first two bench guns back in the 80's when he was fresh outta Trinidad, and currently shoot with Richard Schatz here and there. I consider both friends.

Also FWIW....

I set the Light Gun IBS/World record 6 target agg. at 4.2xx" in 2009 with a 6 Dasher.

aalf,

I shot with Richard in Byers, CO hell of a nice guy and I enjoyed the many many conversations...ok..ok.. me badgering him with questions .. we had.

My whole issue with fire forming is the time it takes. I guess it irks me ( mostly cause my time is now very limited ) to have to FF.. then after all that go back and do a load work up.

Someone convince me other wise that in the 6 Dasher this is very simple.

I've looked hard at the 6X47 Lapua and the 6.5X47 Lapua but $100 for 100 cases puts a burr in my azzz...

I thought long and hard about the 6mmAI as my smith was talking to me hard about this cartridge. It also makes the 243AI look like a slouch when you compare the gains.

sooo... I'm in a pickle as well ( trying to bring this back to the OP's original dilemma )

What to build. I'd like a easy to load, exceptionally accurate and deer killing capable to 600 ish.

renewing the azzz whooping I took by Schatz in CO made me rethink this whole dasher thing... I remember I was just about to order a build after the nationals.. just never made it to fruition.

I shot 8 mule deer between 400 and 500 yards with this 270.

Win pre64 M70 action
22" PacNor lightweight taper barrel
Bordon Rimrock stock
Weaver Aluminum scope mounts
Medium Aluminum 4 screw rings
Leupold 2x7x33 scope
Stoney point knob
Harris HBLS 8.5" - 12.5" type S bipod
Butler Creek stretchy sling
Butler Creek objective cover
Dvorak instruments soft eye cover
_____________________
8.9 pounds unloaded

That he is...quiet and unassuming too....but definitely knows all.


I used to have a dedicated FF barrel that I FF'd several thousand Dashers out of while shooting prairie dogs. I have also FF'd with 700 X and a square of ass wipe. I find I still don't trust my brass to match duty till after the second firing either way. If you behave on pressures, and depending on the quantity, your brass could out live multiple barrels. I run 105 VLD's at 3060, and the brass will probably live forever. I ran a case test, loading the same one 15 times only neck sizing, and it never did get tight in the chamber, so I quit.


The 6x47 seems to be too inconsistent to stay competitive on a daily basis. A friend of Richards told me of 3 guys that ran 10 different barrels, and finally gave up due to that quirk. With that bigger capacity, (and the 6XC) it should be into it's own with the 115's, but they just can't compete with the Dasher/105 combo.


You're still FF'ing. eating barrels faster, and needs a L/A. If it was such a hat ticket, you'd see them all up and down the line........243/243AI or the 6.5x47 as well......


Pretty well defines the 6 Dasher.......

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5172620/40_X_Makeover#Post5172620

A) Brazilian 7mm Mauser VZ24 action stripped from rifle, $137 Century 3/2009 36 ounces
B) Lothar Walther CM 1300 taper 7mm 26" Barrel blank $185 Brownells 5/2009 53 ounces finished
C) Standard 7mmRemMag reamer, .45" drill, .47" boring bar in 4 step chambering
D) High Tech Specialties [Bansner] stock $202 Brownells 4/2008 20 ounces
E) Weaver #S45 and #S46 steel matte scope mounts $16 Brownells 2 ounces
F) Limbsaver large recoil pad untrimmed $29 Brownells 8/2008 7 ounces
G) Oxpho Blue Cold Blue
H) TIG welded bolt handle, and bolt handle extension.
I) PAWS Aluminum bottom metal for Mausers weighs $65 Brownells 3.5 ounces
J) Rear hump of trigger ground down and reduced trigger spring installed
K) Feed lips milled .51" Wide and 3.5" long
L) Bolt face opened to .532" with carbide tools on lathe and mill
M) Extractor claw relieved
N) Wooden plug epoxied into hollow cut off stock butt ~ 2 ounces
O) Headspaced to .215", not SAAMI .220"
Q) Kahles Helia 3x10x50 scope with multi zero turret $630 CDNN 6/2010 16 ounces
R) Allen buttstock pouch, $12, 6.5 ounces with two rounds
S) 9"-13" Harris swivel bipod, $100 14 ounces
T) vero vellini 3.3" wide V19023 Wide-Top Black Sling $25 5 ounces
U) Weaver quad lock 1" high extension scope rings $12 ~~ 3 ounces
V) Devcon steel putty epoxy under 1" of barrel, behind recoil lug, below tang, above bottom metal, under scope mounts.
W) Loctite 242 blue on scope mount threads
X) Rust-Oleum camouflage paint 1919 deep forest green on stock
Y) Doggone good 2"x3"x4"rear field bag $35 9 ounces
------------------------------------------
$604 + $630 scope = $1234
177 ounces = 11.06 pounds calculated
-------------------------
weighs 11 pounds on scale

150 gr Nos Bal Tip 66 gr H4350 3250 fps average.
It shoot sub moa at 100y.
But it is not consistently in a 12" ring at 600y with me shooting...yet.
Got a mule deer at >400y and an antelope at <100y in 2011 with that load.

aalf,

Hmm thank you for the informative post.

Unfortunately my questions continue.

I'm not in a financial situation to run a FF rig and then "the rig".

So I'd have to FF outta the same barrel. Will going the moly extend me some barrel life? I've never used moly but if it is the ticket to making this rig run longer on said barrel I'm all in. Are you just running molied bullets or actually preping/seasoning the barrel with moly?

Your rig is nice. Your taste is similar to mine.. I'd not go sniper fill and a contour maybe 2 thinner on the barrel...

How many round scan one expect from a barrel running 105's at 3000 fps?

What barrel length for a carry/prone hunter? Is there a magical length the dasher prefers?

TIA!

No problem. Just work up a FF load, and go shooting. You'll just have BR performance for a while. Dasher brass will end up holding around 3 1/2 grain more powder, about 150 FPS.


I run moly in everything right from the get go, with no breaking in. It won't help barrel life, but will extend cleanings, w/o loss of accuracy.


That particular gun was set up strictly for long range plinking and prairie dogs. Weight was not an issue, spotting shots was.....


Probably over 3000 of peak accuracy, as long as prairie dogs aren't on the menu.


Not really. I've got 'em from 22" to 31".

For a carry gun, I'd not do over 22".

Like this:





This one a 22", set up with .055" freebore to run the 95 VLD's. Oddly enough, evn though I've ran them to 3200, the accuracy's at 3060, same as the 105's in my match stuff.

And do it all with 34 grains of powder.......

Again, many thanks!

and oh wow.. I like that rig!

Specs?

Who's reamer do you use?

no turn or tight neck turn needed?

When you say you run moly right from the get go.. waddya mean how?

22" Rock 8 twist, Rem magnum sporter contour, McM Classic, Leupold 3.5-10 CDS in Tallys.

My reamer, .272" no turn.

I load and shoot moly plated bullet from day one.....

Hmmm....

How much free bore for 105's?

Thank you!

I have been reading up on the dasher and I have to say I am intrigued. This case is made from 6br brass correct? What does it take to form it and who makes dies for it? Is the barrel life better than the 243ai? What would you consider a life expectancy of the two, shot wise?

Is the 243ai based off of the short or long action? I see stiller offers their TAC action in both short and long with the 308 bolt face. I was thinking the long would give more room to play with length. Then I started to wonder what most people built them on.

A lot of questions I know but the more I think about this the more questions I come up with.

Thanks for all the help so far everyone and i hope I don't sound like to much of a nubie

.104's the "standard"....

Yup, made from the 6BR case. Neck up to 25, back down to 6, leaving a secondary shoulder to headspace on, then FF.

Here's a pic of making 22 Dasher. Obviously, just neck them down to 22 and FF:



Redding makes dies.

Several things come into play in barrel life, but the Dasher will smoke a 243AI in that department.

I just took off a Dasher barrel that had 1300 rounds through it, and there was no sign of fire cracking yet.

Run 1300 through an AI and see where you're at.....

clankety clank... the wheels are turnin...

.272 Neck and .104 freebore... and a pinch or 2 of RL15. Stuff the top with a 105...

Richard wrote this all down for me on a business card. I've moved since then and damn if I can find it...



First time I have heard go up then down... huh...

So I need the 25 cal expander mandrel then the 6 Dasher FL/Neck die (type S) I suppose?

That's the sure fire cure for best results.

I know some run a bunch of tension on the BR case, seat hard into the lands, and let 'er rip, but I don't.

Yup on that die. Mine just happens to be a custom bushing die built with my reamer on a die blank.

Good info Al. I'd build one and shoot beside you, but I don't want to hurt your feelings.


Any coyutes lately?

I'm always open to lessons.......


Of course.......

If that was for sale... I might be inclined to run for my wallet...

aalf- I've been sorta interested in the 6 Dasher since reading about it in Cartridges of the World. Will it feed through the magazine or is it a single shot deal?

I've yet to have a problem feeding the through a factory magazine set-up, 22 or 6 Dasher.

Some recommend the Bryant conversion, but I don't see a need.

All the guys who've I talked to with a repeater have said things work fine with the factory feed or a detachable mag

I had Travis (TMR) of RBROS build me a 243 AI on a remington 700 action, and at the same time he chambered a Savage 243 barrel with the same reamer. The chamber is cut exactly alike, and I can adjust the headspace on the savage to match the 700.

the barrel and reamer cost under $150 all up (bought the barrel used on this site). And, I have a number of savage actions to choose from when i want to fire form.

Easy and cheap.

hmmm

Thanks! THat's good to hear...

See "Tube Gun" in Competitve shooting.

You wouldn`t need to go that heavy....but the bugger really shoots, and is in 6mm.

A drug addiction might be cheaper than reading all this. Thnks aalf....grin

Kaleb, what's in the works now?! If you don't have enough time, send out one of those 6.5x284s and I'll whistle some schit through it for ya

Lol....only got one 6.5 twisted up. Got a load worked up and dope to 800. Other one is still needing to be chambered up. Weve had some nice weather and we just been riden horses past couple weeks. I need to mail ya some guns and horses I think....grin

Stick a gun or two on a horse and send his azz my way! I'll take care of both