My buddy is wanting to start shooting long range what would be the best factory gun for him to start out with that wouldnt break the bank. thanks matt allen

Sako

Winny MOd. 70 with the 26" tube, solid mounts, trigger job, maybe re-bedded which is not difficult to do and a Swaro Z3-4x12 or Zeiss Conquest 4.5x14.

This will cost considerably less than the Sako, my friend, Mike, suggests and I prefer Mod. 70s to Sakos.

Some, will suggest Remmy Sendaros and this is another option, but, the recent Remmy production I have looked at has left me "cold" in terms of "QC".

From here, there are LOTS of options, just need the wallet to deal with them!

Is he wanting a sporter weight gun or a heavy type gun? Does he handload or shoot factory ammo?

Savage 10FP or 11 Long Range Hunter. My .308 will shoot little groups all day with no work required.

Rem Sendero 7mm isnt a bad place to start. Even the M70 Extreme weather are pretty nice. Whatever he picks I recommend getting him setup with a good crisp trigger and practice practice practice.

Next question is "what do you plan on calling long range"???


I will put a vote in for a Tikka heavy barrel 308. All of them that I have ever seen have been shooters and they won't break the bank.

Savage long range hunter in 6.5x284.

I just bought a Browning Long Range Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor, I'm still waiting for the NICS check to clear (almost 2 weeks), I'll let you know how it shoots.

I wouldn't look any further than a 7 Mag Sendero topped with a turret equipped Leupold.

Damn thing is gonna be a laser. Saw them at the SHOT show.

Rem 700 SPS Varmint .243 Win.

+1 with an addition....a leupold with an M1 turret.

5 r milspec in 308 winchester

+2

IMO Remington configured the twist and throat favorably. 105 amaxs are fun to run...

Add a good scope and go play.

I know the OP asked for factory, but I would rather pick up a semi custom for the same money. I cannot see paying sender prices when you can usually pic up a custom barreled 700 in a hs stock for the same money.

Yep. Hard to beat for the price. Well, hard to beat period.

I can't consider the 243 as a long ranger bomber even with high bc bullets.It's just not there

I like this combo but prefer the 300Win Mag, then put on a Jewell or Shilen trigger

That's easy...Tikka T3 chambered in a 7mm Rem Mag.... the gun will do more than it's part....your friend just needs to do his.....

Remington 700 in 300 RUM

105VLD or Amax running 3200 is pretty good to me!

Still not a fan but to each their own.

If between you and your buddy you can't figure out what to start with, I'd suggest a 308Win in a Rem 700 varmint weight barrel. There's a bunch of options depending on your budget/preferences.

Commercial ammo is available for most any purpose. If you reload, so much the better.

Get a decent scope with turrets, and a LRF.

By the time you put some wear on it, you will know where you want to go from there.

That would be really good !!!!!! but I have never witnessed a 243 shoot them that fast.

Let's quantify a couple/few things,make some determinations and proceed from there armed with more than a leetle info.

For starters "long range" is a subjective designator,meaning different things to different people. My take on the matter is,that "long range" starts wherever you gotta correct POA to jive with POI,be it via erector or reticle...it ends when you are unable to make a known distance determination,or when a boolit slips transonic. 'Course that don't mean that gunning beyond an LRF's abilities or past a subsonic slip ain't fun,but I'd use them aforementioned constants as stalwart bookends on which to formulate a system's inherent abilities.

Now onto quantifications:

1) Do your pard reload?
2) What's the budget for the scoped platform?
3) What type of Critters is he gonna fling boolits into?
4) What's his version of "long range"?
5) What do he have in the stable currently?

POA/POI intersections regarding trajectory,is straight up Physics and wind is ALWAYS VooDoo. The faster he starts thinkin' boolits instead of chamberings,the faster schit will get easy for him. You'll note that most are quick to add copious case capacity in conjunction with a Goat [bleep] of a heavy platform,as a Starter Rifle. I'd not be amongst them ranks,because niche schit that kicks,never gets shot nearly as much as a well thought out Utility Rifle,that's farrrrrrrrrrrrrr more versatile from start to finish. Do not underestimate that not so [bleep] subtle "hint". Hint.(grin)

Now in order to ring the bell,it ALL starts with boolits and dat's why twist rate,throating and COAL latitude,rate the most serious of considerations. In conjunction with same and weighing barrel life and fending atmospheric conditions,S/S is the only way to fly,especially here in Kansas. Live wood is a heavy compromise I'd be unwilling to make,in regards again to long term POA/POI intersection sanctity. I've broken too many laminates to be enthralled with 'em,but they trump living handles. Milk Jugs suck heavy azz and the only reason I'd go there,is to score a donor barreled action and trip the handle,throw it off a cliff or perhaps club feesh with(we've fair sized Tout here on The Milford).

Getting closer to threadin' more needles,I'd be loathe to toss a L/A in a newbs mitts,save perhaps a S/S 700 280 Sporter. It's a nice blend of twist,throat,COAL,performance and yet still in the modest-ish recoil threshold realm. I'd have more focus on setting up a Skookum S/A and that means either 243Win or 7-08...unless the cat don't reload,then he's in 308 Mode by default. Assuming 700 based,both S/A chamberings will do nice things in their issued metal and reach the 1000yd line and beyond in style,comfort and most importantly fun. Don't overlook fun being a crucial aspect,because schit that ain't fun,simply don't get used and noone has become proficient by not practicing. Re-hint.

So weighing high BC fun,twist,throat,COAL latitude and performance to recoil ratio...it's tougher than [bleep] to trump a modest weight 243Win 700,when talkin' bang for the buck. It will get shot a LOT,because it is FUN and it is an intellesting constant correlation,that the more one bangs around with Skookum wares,the "luckier" they get.

Drive LW's,toss 1" Leupie glass wearing an ele turret in the saddle and dastardly deeds are but a fun trigger pull away. 'Course it's easy for me to say,because I've either had/have or shot 'em all. Practice cain't be purchased and copious case capacity is the dumbest [bleep] thing newbs can do to themselves. Copious case capacity in a Goat [bleep] rifle,that balances/handles like schit,is the culmination of ALL the stupid moves being laden in a single basket. Much to be said for keeping pace with trace/impact,as a means of VooDoo JuJu. Can see where this might could get good.(grin)

You've been led to water. Re-re-hint.

What he said....grin

yep, that about says all that needs saying!

My 243AI will push them that fast!

Truth as only Stick can speak it!!,

Drink that schit!

And then there's Maud...

there you go.

MATT- what is he hunting for groundhogs??

Since in iowa we cant shoot deer with rifles it would mainly be used for paper punching and shooting coyotes but it would need to be big enough to shoot a deer if needed

He could go with a little heavier barrel then, but with the plethora of accurate lighter rifles, why?

Stick with something in the .308 family. Still going to be hard to beat a light .243 with the Amax if he reloads. Joy to shoot and plenty of power for all his needs.

Re-read Boxer's post...hint.

the most surpising thing to me is the answers to the original post.
only one asked in plain language the obvious question.
how far? maybe he should have included and for what?
another went to great legnths apperently to prove a point.
of that im not sure as i lost interest about halfway .

Hard to beat the Sendero, I've never seen one in any caliber not shoot. If recoil is an issue, go .308 in a similar package.

257 Weatherby is a good long ranger. I have one in Rem 700 CDL will reach out and touch somebody. I think the Wby Vanguards in 257 is a good value. Ammo is a little spendy. Fun caliber.

Well the only maker that was not mentioned so far was Marlin - LOL

+3

A gun club pal has this exact setup, trigger tuneup plus a higher mag Leupy w/ turrets. Its just a wonderfully accurate rig.

NB

As already mentioned, how far is far?
And how far for what types of shooting/hunting?
How far for deer?

+4 on the sendero in 7rm.
I recently bought a 300rum and it has a break, less recoil that the 7rm.
If I wasn't gonna put break I would defiantly recommend the 7rm. I've owned 3 senderos and they all shoot better than me

Savage 111 LRH, Browning A Bolt LRH, maybe a Weatherby Vanguard Sub-MOA. . . All come in well under $1k and should shoot sub MOA.

I'd say go 300 Win, very, very versatile and cheap and common compared to other LR calibers.

For a heavy-chevy- Sendero 7REM MAG. Leupold MK4 ,3.5-10X40 or 4.5-14X40

Lightweight long ranger- CDL SF 7 mm Rem Mag in a McMillan with similarly configured glass.

See the trend in bore diameters ?

ronin',

I's gots me a hunch,that I prolly Sendero'd for a spell. Didn't go crazy,but had 'em in 7mmRem,7STW and 300Winny(though of course did all the S/A schit in PSS,VS,VLS,LTR,VSSF and the ilk). All the Sendero-esque handles suck heavy azz and do a nice job of adding felt recoil to the equation and are dog schit choices for chasing trace/impact,for that reason. They ain't no peach offa the hind legs either.

If one HAD to choose a Sendero in .532"...it'd assuredly be the 7mmRem for the Victory. That being said however,it'd be wayyyyyyyyyyy down on the list of suggestions for a prospective newb's first foray,into dabblin' LR. Schit handling,schit balance,schit ergo's and added recoil,the warm/fuzzy do not make.

Sure fire recipe,to take all the fun outta the equation and score the gent his first Safe Queen. Folks is quick to forget,that not shootin',ain't helpin' the situation from any angle. It is funny,how fun do bolster round counts by default.(hint)

Beeg stuff that handles like schit and bucks around,do not get shot much...as you can undoubtedly attest.

Hint.







yobuck,

Don't shoot much do ya'?

Feel free to take notes and apply same,if only because if you heed same...it'll help your game.

Hint.








Mojo,

There's MUCH to be said for the system,in which a guy is always formulating reasons to shoot...as opposed to the contrary.

Now,were this the Pre-LRF Days,I've seen me be hip on adding case capacity to hedge a bet,in order to corroborate POA/POI intersections at UKD. If I stated that I've had/have lotsa Boomers,it'd be gross understatement.(grin)

Today,one can bank upon the sanctity of KD,in conjunction with modest recoil and high BC's,along with minimal ES/SD...so by default it's a straight up VooDoo Game. There's no way to get better at fending VooDoo with JuJu,than by watching trace/impact in the real time. I'd liken it akin to the much accelerated learning curve associated with Photography,in the extrapolation of gunning film as opposed to digital. In the end,EVERY shot is a tracer if you wanty it to be and few things interest me more,than concise feedback at the moment...whether it a shutter or a trigger.

Necking the suck outta the 308,ain't a bad start.(grin)








'lea,

Tough for me to swoon the 300Winny Today. Doubly so,when stoked with 180 AccuBombs,as there's nuttin' redeeming in the melding. That's an alignment of modest BC within the bore sizing,at sedate speeds,though it is a poor return in the recoil to performance ratio...if such things are a keen interest. They ain't to me.(hint) Always interesting to watch folks get in a big hurry,to make bad decisions.

Now if the gent in question,had a 300Winny Sendero fall in his lap as a gift and were gonna use it in the applications plainly cited,that'd change the focus a smidge. That's when you say: "fling '22 fueled 155 Scenars..until the tube is smoked,then give the next spout a better thunk". 'Course,that ain't where the situation is and thus the ease in scratching the 300Winny from the list,though it were funny to muse it in the first place,given the criteria.

You boys are really goin' outta your way,to [bleep] the Newb hard.







'hunter2,

I hear good things about the 257Wby and just might could have some familiarity there too. It's an absolute Dog if/when fed Factory Fodder,as it's an expose on Ping Pong Ball BC's,which ain't a very purty peecture.

Cheer up...noone would welcome a 115-ish A-Max or Scenar more than I. The .420BC 100XLC fueled with '22 at 3750fps and a 300yd zero,were my bread and butter in a gaggle of custom 700 based 257Bee's and it is disheartening to state that my supply of Blue Meanies is dwindlin'. As much as I love the chambering and despite all of the Sinister Deeds it done for me,I'd not buy or build one Today...mainly because boolits matter more than headstamps.(hint)

It'd also be wayyyyyyyyy down the list of suggestions for a Newb,given the applications cited. Big Green was a coupla decades late,chambering for the 257Wby and that'll always be a shame.

As per always,in all things Roy chambered,I'll greedily take two-lugs,looonnggggg before 6 or 9.

Hint.







'Bumpo,

Which 700's "don't shoot"?!? The Sendero blueprint is a Goat [bleep].

I'd liken it akin to handing a 10yr old a 44 Desert Iggle as his first pistole. Sure it's a capable chambering,that has long done nice things,but the platform is a heavy compromise...pun be intended.

Folks are quick to forget that the inside of a barrel,is far more important than it's outside and beeg contours in schit handles,the warm/fuzzy do not make.

Groovin' on how noone is sayin' anything about boolits and them that have on "accident",has badly missed all marks.

I just KNEW this one was gonne get good.(grin)








'SHOOTER,

I've zero doubt,that you's the weakest link in the equation.

As an aside it's still "brake",though I've no doubt you was doing the best that you can.

Laffin'!







'archer,

You just took Stupidity to new [bleep] levels.

Congratulations?!!?








archie',

I hear good things about the .284" bore sizing and prolly have some familiarity there.(grin)

Just cain't finger out,why you boys are in sucha [bleep] hurry to beat the Newb up and remove all the fun outta the equation for him?!? The key is to instill good habits(which is only aquired via live fire trigger time),delve into the "why" and the "what" of Boolistics 101(nice BC's at nice speeds...simply do nice things),keep an overview of the cited applications(fun) and then extrapolate a melding from there,to an existing platform that'll do it all...less breakin' the bank.

It's called a 700 based 243Win.

Hint.(grin)

Great ripostes, Stick.

Always amuses me when people recommend mags for greenhorns...they hardly have a place for 'pros' nowadays, what with slickery bullets available.

I got a Sendero-ish rig in a 5R and, yes, it's a pig and the H-S handle sucks ergo wise (does shoot well, though). It's a .308 for now and will someday have the 'suck' necked out of it! But for now, I got components in hand for it so it's trumping the brace of birdies in the bush...


It's impossible to over-emphasize the correlation between ease/joy of shooting and desired proficiency in said pastime, although you've stated said correlation repeatedly. As you mentioned, wind is always Voodoo and only by trippin triggers will one get better.

My buddy was suckered into buying as his first rifle (for elk) a .300 WBY that he still hasn't put 30 rds through. Guess who will be making the backup shot for him....

Have to agree that practicing with the boomers isn't always a lot of fun. However, I use my .338 Win mag for long range shooting because that is what is in my hands when I'm elk hunting.

However, I look at practice a different way. I practice with my .22's, 223AI, 22-250, 25-284, 30-06, or whatever trips my trigger that day. I've always felt that practice with any rifle will transfer over to the one you are using when the shot really counts. As long as you remember your ballistics or tape them to the stock for reference (for us older guys), anything you can do with a 223, you can do with a .300 win mag for those few shots a year when it counts.
If I had the arsenal that Stick/Boxer has to his credit, my biggest problem would be choosing which one to practice with, but practice I would do as much as possible. But, I would still be carrying my old reliable .338 WM when the shot counts because I just plain have faith in it.

Whatever you have faith in to do the job for you is what you should carry. Practice is necessary but doesn't have to be painful to get the job done.

Stick, I notice a painful lack of pretty wood stocks in your selections. If you want, I could send you a few to remedy that painful situation.....

Springer fishing started here this week.....

Bob

Mojo,

The FIRST Rule of The Jungle,is to procure light done right...then go beeger(longer/heavier/etc) if inclined. The beeger stuff is then immediately relegated to Niche affairs,simply by default and when the dust settles,they simply wither on the vine in comparison. There ain't too many handy/dandy Safe Queens in this World.

I plead guilty to slumming a 23" MTU contoured Mike Rock 5R M852 chambered 308Win,wearing all the good schit,in an A5. With the chips down,I'd much rather be gunning my 1st Gen Ti 7-08...so did.(grin)

For conversation.



Guilty of LTR 308's too.



My 308 VSSF got better in an A5...but what don't?!!?(grin)



An LTR in a M40A1 return handle,do have some Nostalgia.



Then there's them [bleep] FN SPR's and I slummed an A1.



Long way of sayin',I [bleep] 308's with an open mind.(grin)

As to the 300Bee,I've shot the dog schit outta the cartridge and done things with it,that cain't be did. Still prefer the 300 Super to it,though I've never not hated belts. It takes a full lengthed 30cal H&H Improved,to hang with a 2.5" H&H based .284"...which do frost alotta azzes.(grin)

I'm happy to bat clean-up behind Fire Breathin' Dragons,with a lowly S/A housing a 308 with the suck necked outta it. "Toldjaso's" ain't too hard to deal out and with uncanny accuracy.

Not everyone can see the light.








Bob,

I'm ALL about shooting and heartily endorse trigger time. Few folks is better at finding a "reason" to shoot,than I. I'm a fan of having lotsa clubs in the bag and for mixin' things up...if only to eek appreciations for what do what and more importantly why.

Many things cross over from one chambering to another and making range determinations,doping erectors and dealing JuJu to fend VooDoo is how the game is played. Breaking a good poke and calling the break,is all fundamentals that jive across the case capacity spectrum. Too few realize them simplistic constants and fewer yet,apply same.

Few things is more powerfuler come crunch time,than the warm/fuzzy. Such things is only granted due familiarity and proven track records...which is why I've long been a fan of consistent POA/POI intersections and good boolits. This Kansas weather,grants opportunity to see how various platforms deal with inclement weather and assuredly not all things is the same(nor close). I'm a firm believer in beating on schit,to make it prove itself and if/when something pukes,it's extrapolated to similar wares for future reference. Things quickly sort themselves out.

I'm guilty of purty wood and blue...but it hurts my pride to confess to such blasphemy,so I cain't like to talk about it.(grin)

I reckon I'll be Casting & Blasting,by midweek...long as the weather don't hang the Sky Crummy up.

Touche' old man. I got the Horse in front of the cart there for a minute. Was thinking the OPs buddy already shoots, just not long range. And was horned up to experience a 26" telephone pole hanging off the front of his stock and enough powder behind a .284" pill to keep him going back to the gun shop again and again

Assumptions, they can get a feller in trouble .

On a side note, always wondered why Big Green never fielded a 7-08 VSSF and SPS-V, I figured they'd fly off the shelves, again....assumptions .

Remington 700 SPS stainless in 243 Winchester.

Get new handle as money allows. I would prefer a Mickey Mtn Rifle pattern in standard fill with checkering for your endeavor.

Yep, still best choice. They can be had new at SW for $500 (and often on sale) with a crappy scope (give the scope to a kid who needs one).

My buddy bought one in .308 and put it in a Mickey Classic, Timney'd it and mounted a Leupy 3.5-10x40 in Talley LW's.

First reloads with 175 SMK and RL15 were running .75-1 MOA. Hitting 10" steel over any kind of rest at 500 yds was boring...

I'm gonna go back and start at the start...

Now maybe the offerings are a bit different down in the US, but if you want "best bang for the buck"- this is going to be it. If you want to spend a little more money, then I'd go the SS version of the SPS, but if you coat the SPS-V with some DGS, you'll be okay in the elements. If you have the SS version down there for the same money or close, then no doubt I'd jump on the SS model without looking back. Shoot the barrel til it pukes and re-barrel in SS, regardless. Bullets in .243 are cheap compared to larger diameters, and those Remmy barrels do nice things with some of the better LR bullets like the Horn 105 HPBT and AM.

A factory Remmy .243 barrel from yesterday's adventures. Wind gusting left to right at about 11mph average. Nothing like the high BC of bullets like the A-Max to fend off the effects of a fickle wind...





On second thought, better stay away from those factory 700 barrels in .243. They don't work. *grin*

Can't fool me.

Lol

Boxer,

That orange rifle is ORANGE in a big way! That's the first time I ever almost went blind lookin' at a rifle. Hell, Stevie Wonder could see that joker!

Nice shooting J!

Thanks, Ernie

archie,

The 7-08 was long maligned by both the Makers and the Masses...though I were lucky enough to take the plunge as a pup and have yet to waiver. I've over a quarter of a Century yerking triggers upon the chambering and have one receiver on it's 5th spout so chambered. I always could read sign.(grin)

The 7mmRemMag,would be easy to argue as being the best use of the H&H hull in any configuration and few love it more than I. That being said,it ain't the platform I'd be pressing into a Newb's mitts.

If one ain't careful,it's easy to whistle through 100rds+ of 243/243AI in a day,just [bleep] around having fun and in direct comparison,the 7mmRemmie wouldn't see nearly the trigger time by most and especially Newbs. While long having been a Giant Killer,the "lowly" 243 has made great gains,due simply to the sensational boolits now available for same.

Boolits matter more than headstamps...always have,always will.








DD,

A S/S Faux Ti 243Win is Biiiiiggggggggggggg Medicine,for leetle loot.








Mojo,

I shoulda took pics from the other day,banging around with a coupla Newbs...letting them fingerphuck some wares. Had 223AI's,22-250AI's,243,243AI's,6-284's,7-08,7-08AI,308 and a 7 Whizzum in my crummy.

The fast twist 223AI(Secondhand Rose) with 75 Max's stole the show and I reckon that due to the ease in chasing trace/impact in squirrely conditions,through the Leupie MK4 straight 10x M1. Then I let 'em gun my Roctucky 223AI and everyone said "[bleep] the heavy schit" and it's funny how them side by each comparisons in the flesh work. Though admittedly,I knowed how it was gonna unfold and saved the Rocktucky for last.(grin)

It's easy for me to say,if only because I've got it all.








Jordan,

I've heard the same whining schit,from dumbphuckers who shoot nothin' other than their mouths,in regards to Big Green 6mm spouts and the 243Win chambering in particular. 'Course,I've always enjoyed the hilarity associated with Guessers talking out their azzes and am happy to supply all of the slack on the rope,they wish to try and manage.(grin)

Big Green twists and throats rather favorably in 243Win and it's just a [bleep] shame that other Makers don't take that hint.

[bleep] Bean Counter anyhow.








'GUE,

It looks orange,but is actually ALOT oranger than it looks.(grin) Took me two cans,to get it glowin'!

Windowlickers fret such things,but I never spooked easily.




Winny goat [bleep] the FN SPR A1 DBM's,by tossing a 2.8" COAL magazine,in a 3" receiver. Would LOVE a C/L FN SPR in an A5,wearing AICS/Alpha2 mags and chambered in 7 Whizzum(with a Montucky throat)...as a Play Toy.

[bleep] Bean Counters anyhow.

WOW! I've read all of your posts (several times) and I must say I'm ready to run out a buy me a 243!! Not so fast.

I like your colorful way of painting even if it is with a lot of "PH'ing" and I think I know what you are saying???

Long range shooting is relevant to whom ever. Shooting a 22 rim fire out to 300 yards is long range. Especially with a wind. Heavier is always better as far as rifle weight and bullet weight is concerned but it does add stability.

Matt Allen, Probably the best gun for your bud will be....you thought I was going to recommend something...Not. Your Bud needs to make that decision. Boxer does make some excellent points. For kill'n paper and coyotes he's not going to need anything over a 22 caliber and for argument sake a max of 6.5mm. Since you can't kill deer in Iowa with a rifle anyway so the bigger bores aren't needed. Any 22, 6mm, 6.5mm with HIGH BC bullets will do just fine and it doesn't need to say AI or Magnum behind it. And when it comes to which rifle..well his purse will tell him which is right for him. Doesn't need to be a heavy barrel or have a fancy fiberglass stock. Coyote killing normally means you won't be shooting a lot or enough to heat up the barrel anyway. And if you Bud just wants to burn powder at a range maybe he should look at an AR platform gun.

Probably the best advice is get something you like, put a decent piece of glass on it and shoot. When he gets to the point he's bored with what he has maybe he can afford to go bigger, badder, farther.

Cheers!

good advice right there, and not just for newbs.

I agree. For the money these are hard to beat, especially for deer/antelope-sized game. However, when loaded correctly and shot accurately, elk & moose are not a problem.

A new Model 700 goes for $379.95. You won't find anything better.

'375,

I prolly bang around a bit with .224's too. Trouble is,there isn't a Factory .224" rifle I could recommend and assure the end user,that it'd sing as configured over the counter. Why? Twist rate.

The Montucky 223 is the most awesome platform on the Planet,but 1-9" ain't a certain thang in 223 SAAMI. 9" is a better bet as velocity increases and I'd wager more jingle on a 9" 22-250 or 22-250AI stabilizing the 75A-Max,than I would a 9" 223/223AI. Have seen it go both ways and 8" never ain't not a certain thing.

That being said my 700 LTR 223AI wearing it's issued 9" spout punched out,simply flat [bleep] dazzles with 75A-Max. Dumped it into an A5 with Badger bottom,rings and rail,Kenworth shifter and 3.5-10x M3.



I think highly of my heavy Retrostalgic Return 1-9" Hart 22-250AI and the 75's nudging 3500fps.



Also gun a 1-7.7" Krieger 22-250AI.




Rebarreled my 223AI Montucky to a Rocktucky wearing a 1-7" Mike Rock spout. it's far and away my Favoritest Rifle of ALL Time and I've done dabbled me a few. Last I counted,I had (13) 223AI's and they run the twist rate range from 7-14" and 8" is where it's at. Hint.



223AI's in ascending twist rates. 14",12",10",9"8" and 7".





Anywhoo...I'm purty open minded in regards to .224's and am hip on the notion in general and gun Hornets,K-Hornets,Deuce,223's,223AI's,224Wby,22-250,22-250AI,Swift and CHeetah,if only for starters.

Thus far,no Makers do 'em right over the counter and the .224's are hamstrung outta da gate,due to lazy twist rates. The TikTacs are a Goat [bleep] and Salvage is never a serious consideration...so the 700 243Win takes the crown by default,in bang for the buck over the counter MoJo.

The Montucky twisted 8" in both 223 and 22-250 would steal the [bleep] Show!

I reckon because I've got 'bout every blueprint there is,that I couldn't say that adding weight helps the beeg picture. That in regards to both gross platform weight and projectile weight. I'll always take a modest weight or lighter offering,that's well balanced and good handlin'...over a Goat [bleep] Pig. Now as to boolits,"weight" and "SD" mean dick. Where the rubber meets the road is in it's construction and profiling. There's always a sweet spot where the most goody is aligned,for folks who's paying attention and that ain't ever at the heaviest offering. Re-hint.

Again...the 243Win by Big Green connects the most dots,with the least amount of recoil and greatest downrange performance,when weighing over the counter Goodness on the cheap. Though I prolly shoot a few other chamberings,that ain't been mentioned yet.

Bullets matter more than headstamps and things like twist rate,throat geometry and COAL latitude...rate a greater than passing thunk. The astute can have their cake and eat it too,but I can only leadja to water...I cain't make you drink.(grin)

Re-re-hint.

Winchester routinely [bleep] alotta schit up and their 3" receiver mated to a 1-10" 243Win spout,takes the cake for Bean Counter Dumbphucktitude.

Common sense just ain't very common.









'wg6,

I believe you's onto sumptin'.(grin)









'Buck,

I loves Salvages too.




Laffin'!

Hahahahaha! LOL!

Yea that is how I feel about brownings

I have a weatherby 300win mag. It's a awesome rifle.

Do you have a pic with you peeing on one?

LOL!

Boxer,

I definitely wouldn't mind a Montana in a 8" (or ANY 22-250 so spun) but in the meantime I'll keep my TickTak SL!

Shoots itty bitty with the 60 Vmax and 75 Amax. Twill soon be an AI and it needs a nicer handle...I like the rifle so much I'm thinking of dropping the dough on a Mickey for it...

Question: with your hotter .22's what's the upper limit you've found for twist vis-a-vis velocity with regards to the 75 Amax?

Been thinking of building a hot .22 to throw the 75+ grainers and Hornady told me they got 3600 in a 9" with the 75 Amax but thought that an 8" or faster would be a no go.

Hard to find people with experience shooting heavy .224 projectiles at 3500+...

'lia,

I've pizzed on more than a few things and [bleep] with an open mind.

In fairness,the AccuTrigger is almost as nearly as good of a [bleep] joke,as Burris pokin' PosiLok and Turrets aboard the same scope.(grin)









Eddy,

I hates me some Browning boltguns too.

In fairness however,I do gots me a steel BLR I need to rebarrel to 8" 22-250AI though,as an under the radar Ultimate Sleeper/Giggles Rifle.

I is a Purist,of the highest brow.(grin)








Eric,

Are you bitching or bragging?!!? Do feel free to wax eloquent on a 9-Lugged Goat [bleep],as I like them ruses...'bout as good as Salvage and Jap Browning turnbolt yarns.

Cheer up,I suffer some [bleep] Weatherbys too.









Mojo,

I'm not a fan of injection handles(especially them that adjust),'06 lengthed 223's or Barbie Doll magazines...and the Sales Pitch don't get no purtier when wrapped in CM steel. Redid a pard's 223 TikTac magazine,to accept increased COAL in conjunction with it's throat and a kiss and the whole enchilada took about 1/2 gallon of bleach to get the stink offa my mitts. They really are a sorry [bleep] "effort",despite 1-8" being a nice place to be on both .378" and .473" boltfaced .224's.

As to 75A-Max RPM,the beegest fast twist case I shoot in .224" is the 22-250AI and that's where pards have all thus far drawn the line too. I know of none in the ranks spun faster than my 7.7" Krieger,as the vast majority of the herd is straight up 1-8's. I've suffered no malady in 22-250AI at 7.7" with moly 75's at 3450fps in the 23". EVERY swinging dick raves on the 8" and the 75A-Max expressly in the chambering...with it being designated as "mainstay",squarely a gross understatement. Most spouts is 3-grooved and noone is trying to slow a 75 down on the throttle.(grin)

After having suffered a brace of CHeetahs(Mach One's both),[bleep] around in Rocket and Swift AI...it's 22-250AI or bust for me in case capacity ceiling for .224" bore sizing. It's simply too excellent,to [bleep] around with and the COAL latitude do not hurt the equation. If I'm gonna drive a 243Win case,it's gonna be in 6mm bore sizing as a minimum and farrrrrrr more likely in 243AI configuration to boot.

So if you think the .224" 75A-Max at 3500fps is gonna leave sumptin' to want more of,simply cut to the chase and go 6mm outta da gate and launch better BC's. With the 243,243AI,6mmRem,6mmRemAI and 6-284's in my larder...amongst the .224's mentioned prior,the 223AI easily remains my favorite chambering of all,for Utility Pursuits. A 1-8" 21-inch 223AI will do everything and more,less breaking stride. Were there a 1-8" S/S turnbolt 223 in light done right...noone woulda mentioned it as THE Derby Winner before I. But alas,as of Today,that ain't in the mix over the OEM counter.

For adding more azz to the equation,the 243/243AI and 105's really knock schit out of the park and yet remain a hoot to gun with unbridled enthusiasm. Weighing all attributes,the over the counter S/S 700 243Win steals the show and by a goodly margin.

It'd be a more subjective call,if other Makers twisted/throated right,in conjunction with their COAL latitude and available BC's,as well as incorporated S/S spouts(as a minimum). Ruger throats/twists their 243Win's nice and their COAL increase ain't a bad thing,but they's heavy pigs and the ergo's routinely suck heavy azz. BT/DT and have all the T-shirts.

It's all about connectin' the most dots,by default.



(Shot this a few minutes ago and schit like it,always gets the Window Lickers whining.)


Dog [bleep].(grin)

Nice pics, Stick!

Yeah, I did have to do the mag mod to use the 75 Amax kissin...worth it for how good of a bullet that is.

You got me thinkin on the .22-250 AI (which was never far from my mind) again just because of its versatility (especially on its COAL latitude) in a nice short action.

I've grown to like the .223 so much I really don't want to go back to the heavies anymore and I figured another light rifle that could share the 75 Amax wouldn't be too much of a burden...

Need to offload my bigger rifles and pick me up a SS 700 and retube it...when you can finally get components again. For now, I guess it's lotsa .308 and .223 (am loving the Scenars in the 7.62, tho).

Thanks for the input.

PS how long can you load those 75 Amax in your Rocktucky? Obviously, you had it throated properly but am wondering what your mag restraints are.

Get you a remington 700 .243 and learn to drive it!

Most my 223AI magboxes are right close to 2.500" COAL allowance,though I went longer on my Linda Lovelace LTR. A 2.450" COAL 75A-Max kiss,is a nice place to be in 223AI throating,as it'll do it all for them inclined.

Any S/A 700 .473" magbox/donor will do the 22-250AI proud...thus the beauty of the short/squat case.

The Rocktucky 223AI High BC COAL Shuffle,in a coupla thousand words.





After a leetle trigger time.




Cain't like the issued follower,so stabbed a 700 follower in it.


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Did finally puke a follower spring,further along in it's life...but she's seen some spent primers and mebbe even some weather.(grin)

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[bleep] all things CM.

Hint.(grin)











rick',

Had a 280/162's at 2825fps and a 250yd zero,out to 35MOA(1200yds) and 'bout a halfa thick post on the Duplex,set at 6x on a 3.5-10x M3...here a bit ago(however [bleep] far that is). Just slammed a 7-08AI into a McMillan Woodland MR and will air it out in the morning.

I hear good things about OEM 700 243's myself...and plan on tossing a Faux Ti 243AI in the crummy,come morning.

Dear Boxer,

BillyGoatGruff and I have collaborated on a Po' White Trash project.

It involves a Sendero chambered in 7 RUM. Weaver 20 MOA rail with some unknown POS rings and a straight 10X Super Sniper. Had more than two beers and bedded her in a factory BDL stock. We did get fancy and attached a nice trigger and she's plopped 3 162gr. A-Maxes into a 4" circle Saturday. That was at the 8.

Proving once again... Actually it doesn't prove anything. But it's a cool toy even though it has the ergos of a drunken jar of peanut butter.


Travis

You trapping?

'flave,

I've seen good boolits,do good things before and just might could enjoy driving Sleepers and schit that "cain't work"...if only for The Vulcan Mindphuck associated the Windowlickers consternation(s).

It's funny how actually shootin',will reliably resolve more than a smidge,thus my longterm affinity with the practice.

Pun be intended.









rosco,

Just a coupla Pooches,whooped after they had a hard day of Play.

Film at 11:00...as it's gonna b a 243AI Day.

Good info, Stick.

Find it interesting they throw CM in an otherwise SS rifle. Guess I don't need to worry about that with the Plastikka mag!

I, too, opened, my mag to 2.50" and am running 2.470" kissed. Tho the T3 SL Is SS, I live in the high desert so ain't got the moisture content you see (thank god!). I'll post some pics of the sun for you to marvel at...grin.

Ran that 162 Amax in my straight 708 and it was killer. One of those bullets worth building a gun around...

Looking forward to your .243 AI pics/info...

Mojo,

I've yet to have a magbox fail,but have puked multiple follower springs. Milled followers trump all,unless a guy is focusing on weight reductions,then stamped potmetal smokes injection.

Reconfigured a 162 Flinger this afternoon,into an ADL Woodland MR,LW's and 6x42...7-08AI a 2825fps,which ain't a bad place to be. It's grants the warm/fuzzy +P.



Trapline was dry this morning,but the weather weren't and there was enough wind to appreciate Faux Ti 243AI launched 105's crowding 3200fps. Seen all (4) Seasons in 10 minutes...but that'd hardly be anything "new".





This evening I handied some schit up. Laughingly lopped off 4.5" of spout,ground the crown square ala ceramic laden SDM-4,deburred the interior and chased same with 400 wet/dry(in dry mode). Slammed LW's aboard,crunched a 12X Leupie in said saddle and rejoiced in the notion of having found 3K+ rounds of ammo I'd forgotten about. Tried for a "rugged" look and am hoping some dumbphucker will bite.

All of which will Mind [bleep] the Windowlickers.(grin)



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Have zero feel for comeups on this stash,but reckon it won't take longer than until tomorrow,to establish same.

Always was purty handy at finding a reason to shoot.(grin)

Dammit I wish I could find me a few Ks worth of fodder to fling. I have this crazy arse compulsion. I just cannot sleep well with loaded rounds laying around, especially in stuff I like to shoot. I just cannot load enough crap to keep my cravings satisfied. I am going to have to invest in a Dillon. 550B or 650? which should I go with.

Damn, that 7-08 AI is a perfect setup! What length chute? Perfectly outfitted handle and glass, as well.

Gots to be loving the boat paddle and MkII, also!

If you would'a cut it off at a 45 it would shoot as flat as a 300win..22.5 skews will shoot around corners..A hack saw and a steady hand gives a guy many tactical options

Whats that stock with the club-like palm swell?

Eddy',

Big Momma often reminds me that I've got "too much" stuff and there are times,when I think the Old Gal might could be close to right.(grin) Though I'd never say that to her.

550 for me,because I like to retain the control of manual indexing.









Mojo',

24" and too long in my book,mebbe I'll fix it this evening. The Rugerage is BD's.

MK II pistoles,reliably do nice thangs and can be pressed into service to Club Baby Seals to boot,when in a pinch.(grin)









rosco',

I've seen me be hard on loudeners too. A guy can do alotta schit with a hacksaw and a double-ended Oberg...though they(Oberg's) is gettin' tougher to find.









Anywhoo...onto chopped flutes.

Beat on it a smidge yesterday afternoon,after the weather broke. Done did the JB/Kroil pristine bore clean,so as to establish cursory Precision Baselines and I rolled some Old Gold if only for giggles. Was thinking to myself,that it had been 20+ years since I'd loaded nekked boolits,but it were the route to travel,for a Dedicated Ball Burper.



Got to shorten the leap some,ala HS...which is moot due to Cooler COAL. First poke got whistled from the hip,which is my standard practice for any new to me rifle,receiver or barrel. I'm pretty and wish to stay that way.

Boresighted on the beeg 100yd dot,as best I could MPAJ laying in the schit,like a [bleep] [bleep] and hung the first poke on paper. It were deep into left-field,so I whirled knobs and hung 3 more to season the bore. They was a touch toward the shortstop,so adjusted again and walked to take a look.





I'd be amongst the last,to make determinations based offa Clinically Cleaned bore,with but 5 pokes down it's neck. Waltzed back,poked pecker in the snow and rolled another trio. Could see through the fixed 12x glass,that things was gettin' mo' bettah. Waltzed again,to eyephuck in the flesh,to see what I knowed it were gonna do,had done been did.




[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BigStick/Stuff/Rifle%20Stuff/2R8G4584.jpg[/img]
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It is a Beauty.

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Bumped windage to the right,zero'd turrets,replaced caps,stoked the mag and were content. Swung by the store on the way home,bought BC's(I don't know where in the [bleep] the ones slated to it went,musta loaned 'em out?!?) and some primers...calling it a wrap. Ran a come-up ribbon and will play around giving schit a wee bit of a chance today,by goin' retro ala Rice Paddy Prone. Loaded up the balance of that nostalgic box of #2200's and am fixin' to Wage War,here directly.

Long way of sayin' The 82 Trick Move schit,has always cracked me the [bleep] up! The only schit that matters,is the schit that matters.(hint)

Much to be said for keepin' the pony ahead of the cart.

Film at 11:00.

LMFAO!

Dang I wish you would send me that barrel with the lopped off flutes and let me pretty it up for ya. I cut back about .80 staying with the root diameter of the the flutes after I face it off then bevel them on a 45 . Then cut a recessed crown about .100 with some beveled angles. I have done a couple that way and they really do not look bad at all. Not that it would make it humm any sweeter.

Now that is one of the most emotive questions anyone might ask! It is a very personal choice.
At the risk of offending you dear Hunting brothers and sisters in the States, I would reccomend a Mannlicher-Steyr, Calibre to suit your purpose, but 308 is the great all-rounder. The Cold-Hammer forged Barrels cannot, in my opinion, be bested, they are sub-MOA from the start, the copper build up is lower than pretty well all other types of barrel, and the Safe Bolt System has to be the safest available. The range of Models is nicely comprehensive enough to suit anyone, whether it be Varmint Hunting, general Hunting, or the Big Game in Africa requirements. All I can say is 'try it, you'll fall in love with it'!

Wolverine, welcome to the fire!

I am a fan of free floated barrels for my rigs.
The 308 is a good all around cartridge.
It is not my choice for the best to learn on though.
It will have a long barrel life.
For me there is more to a LR rig than barrel life.
Having said that I have a Rem 40x in 308 (Couldn't turn it down for the price), and am having a F-Class rifle built (switch barrel in 308 win for FTR and 284 Win for Open).

Sendero or a accumark, something 338

That's purty.

Is the stock an HTG with some custom body work on the grip and comb?

Browning ABolt LR in 6.5 creedmoor with fluted 26" barrel. Can be bought for $8xx.00. Already set to go. Don't need to do anything, but scope it and go.

Man what will you do when your phone dies...guess you're s.o.l.

I didnt know marksmanship included using an Iphone app....good lawd..

[quote=JWP58
Man what will you do when your phone dies...guess you're s.o.l.

I didnt know marksmanship included using an Iphone app....good lawd..[/quote]


You've got some catchin' up to do, Huh?

Dang JWP58 I thought you used one of these? Not much different than a phone.

Wow, those two-four-threes sound like the perfect long range elk and mule deer rifle especially using target bullets.

You might be surprised how perfect they really are.

Surprise me and show me some pics. Especially the long range shots.

I may actually have some hold on while I look in photoucket, but don't hold your breath.

I guess it flew right over your head that the iPhone app was used to analyze the group after I got home from shooting, based on a picture of the plate that I took after I shot the group...

My phone's battery has died in the field many times. There's a reason I carry a "laminated" drop chart in the stock pack on my LR rigs...

You cannot lead some folks to water no matter how many pics or videos you post RC. I did not have any elk or mule deer long range kill pics with the 243 on photobucket, just deer and antelope. I know I have some mule deer LR 243 kill pics somewhere, but they were shot by kids so they probably do not count. Everybody knows 243s only kill stuff for kids and women as that video confirms.

Cow elk with a 243, now we're talking.
Good thing they used a good hunting bullet, the Berger, and not a target bullet.

Your thirst would not be slaked no matter how many pics or videos were posted, so why bother.

The VLD hunting bullet is the original target bullet. They thickened the jacket to improve the target version because the thinner jackets were being damaged by velocity and high twist rate target barrels.

Believe me SU35, it's taken me some time to come around to what is possible. Would the .243 Winchester be my choice for a long range big game round?

No, but it's tough to argue with results (with perfect placement)

I thought Berger was a target bullet until guys starting killing the crap outta critters with it? Now we call it a "hunting" bullet because it kills stuff. Semantics. Expanding bullets kill. Period.

LOL.

Anyone here have a track record of killing big bulls with 243's at long distance? Using target bullets?
Or even Bergers?

I'm not talking dink deer or antelope, and cow elk...




That's common knowledge, old news.

Nope but I bet there are lots of folks that don't have a record of killing deer with 22 cfs either, Does not mean they will not work well. I have killed a few animals with the bergers, but mostly larger than 243. I use the the DTacs in my 243 and would not hesitate to shoot a bull with it within say 800 yards, which some of us do not to consider to be really long range.

No doubt, but you're getting off topic and not answering my original question.

Within 800 yds with a DTac? Why is 800 yds your stopping point?

Because velocity falls below the threshold for reliable bullet expansion at some point, I am guessing it will occur around 800.

Exactly.

You're also guessing the 243 will kill large bulls at long range.
You don't really know.

Started at 3,100fps the 115gr DTAC drops below 1,800fps at 825 yards in SAC. That bullet will expand/upset at 1,800fps.



Interesting that people still believe that because an animal has a penis that it is somehow significantly harder to kill than one without..... While no doubt that bones and muscles may be stronger or more dense the bigger an animal gets, tissue is tissue and a projectile will either penetrate it and upset or it won't. If it does the animal will die. That 243Win and DTAC combination will certainly cause more damage than an arrow....

Educated guess easily confirmed by consulting a ballistics calculator. Just like dead elk easily verified by photos. Seems that since I have seen no tales of woe from LR 243 fails you are the one guessing.

Eddie, I appreciate you LR shooting ability and knowledge but until someone here steps up and shows and tells a LR track record of killing bulls at long range with a 243 there is nothing but guessing-bs going on.

I'm done with this topic.

No problems SU35. I have never personally killed a bull elk with a .243 but I am not guessing on what a 115gr Dtac does to animal flesh at long range. I am also not guessing when I say that level of damage through the vitals of any animal will cause death to be quickly forthcoming. But, big word there, like you it would not be my first choice but probably for different reasons.

When did bull elk come into this discussion anyhow? I thought the only way to hunt them was with a bow? grin....

I only hunt them with airsoft full auto with night vision and then only if they show up at the mall

A Bowtech to be exact . Pard has a 2013 Insanity CPXL Black Ops coming in...cant wait to finger [bleep] it...

That's what I thought till we started seeing how great the 243 was...on paper.

Sorry misposted

Indians threw their bows away when the got guns...

Pops is surrendering his Destroyer to me and getting something new.... it's sweet.

Hard to hate a Destroyer. 340 or 350? 6" brace heights nice if you can handle it.

Fack if I know... it shoots arrows fast and where you point it and the old man has already killed a bushel of wapiti with it.

Your proof a 243 won't kill a bull elk at long range is.....?

One says D340 the other says D350

Pretty sure Burns had a video on here that showed his group killing a big bull elk with one shot from a 243 at 800+ yards. Certainly it can be done.

Any manufacturer as long as it's a 264 win.

Savage Savage an Savage

Gee must be a new rifle!!!

Freshly "camo'ed" with his teenaged daughter's nail polish

and no rust all over the action or barrel, so it probably hasn't even been out laying in the local streams, while Little Larry has been out 'fishing' by shooting at fish and letting the concussion in the water knock them out...

yea, the last of the mountain men...

PS.. Bet that stock will impress the Village People a lot there Schtick...Barf on the scope, action and barrel and it will all match!

Holy [bleep] you are an e-stalking horny for c-suck'n [bleep] for sure!

Dug through enough elk killed with a variety of cartridges from 250 Savage and 257 Roberts on up to 340 Weatherby and about everything in between,to see what happened....I know what's possible(good and bad)and won't be bringing a 243 elk hunting any time soon.

Whatever goodness a 243 brings to the table can be exceeded in spades by other stuff with exactly "zero" downside...so I don't see the point in it.

I didn't plan on chasing elk with a rifle anytime soon, but I might just have to shoot a late season cow with an 80 TTSX via 243 AI just for grins, now....

Ya don't need no stinkin' mono metals!

Berger + WSSM = DRT

This thread looks to be all over the place, but I fail to see how a good used SS700 in 7mmRM bedded to a laminated take-off would be hard to beat in terms of bang for the buck. Should be doable for $650-ish.

Yeah but Monometals are fun when they're movin' 3500....grin

We don't need no stinking BADGES!

I may need a .243...AI!

Aww heck Jpro all of them work good if people will get out there and learn to shoot em, and learn to shoot animals in vital areas with em.

I took my 15 year old nephew bull elk hunting this year. He has a great little 243AI that he would have been more than capable of taking a bull out to 600 yards with if conditions were right. Instead he was toting a 280AI. Sometimes it is a matter of shooter confidence. He said he would feel more confident shooting the 280AI, maybe because he had shot it out past 1K but only shot his 243 to 600.
I have seen the wound channel a 243 with the right bullets can make at 750 yards a few times. Impose that wound channel into the vitals of a big ol elk and the result is a dead elk.

It sounds like a lot of hunters are less confident in the cartridge/caliber than there own ability to place the shot and I believe this is bass-ackwards.

I have said it before, not a single person that objects to a 243 for Elk would stand up and take a shot to the chest from a 223 at 600 yards...

Yeah, but then again, there's not too many guys I know who have a really tough hide with course, dense hair, covering some big heavy bones, muscle and sinew weighing 800 pounds.

Although that pic of Jpro...

'mug, do you think there is a single person that would take that challenge even with an Elk hide taped to their chest?

It's just a pipsqueak 223 with a 75 gr bullet

I found a volunteer! I found a volunteer!!!!

How many layers of kevlar would it take to stop a 223 with a 75 at 600?

Less than a 338 lapua with 300 gr smk's.........

Child's play.

The question is how many layers to stop a 750gr AM from a .50BMG? Anything less is asking for trouble...

I'd be baggin' the Kevlar and looking for the nearest 4" thick plate of AR-500....grin

Yep better to go for overkill in a situation like that

Go big or go home.

3/8" is enough. No need for 4" thick plate