Went out this morning to develop a new load with the 140 A-Max. The load I'm using now runs the 140 VLD and I'm not thrilled with groups on paper at sight-in range. I probably simply need to back the charge down as you'll soon see.


Shot a 600 yard Audette with the homemade Shoot'n C's from 75.5 grains up to 80 grains in 1/2 grain increments.





Hit some pressure earlier than I thought I would. The node really looked great at 77.5, 78, 78.5, but showed a touch of pressure. I shot the 78 grain load at 600 and it was great. Dropped down to 77.5 and shot another group that put 4 in 2 1/2" and one a few inches down. Thought I'd go with it, so I shot it at 200 yards and accuracy was terrible. Shot the 78 grain load just to see and the results were the same.

I looked at the ladder and felt that 76, 76.5 and 77 were a lower velocity node. Seated 3 in the 76 grain cases and shot a group at 200 that was nice; .8"





It was nice enough that I used some of the other charged cases to make more of the 76 grain load in the truck with my beam scale. Shot a few to check drop data. Set up the profile in Ballistic AE and used 3250 fps for velocity. Dropped it to 3230 after shooting at 660 a touch low.

5 shots at 760 yards





I got some crazy fast velocities with the 78 grain load right around 3300 fps! The lower node shot more consistently close and far....

Um ... never trust a 3 shot group. You wouldn't believe how much ammo I've wasted 'cause 1-2 3-shot groups looked good, but then when I went back out with a bigger batch for re-shoot or sight-in thinking I'd found happiness, 5 shot groups were 2+ inches bigger than 3-shot groups or 3 shot groups jumped around on the paper with no sight changes.

3 shots is enough to eliminate a load if it sucks but it's way to few to base adopting a load on.

IMHO, anyway.

I agree T O M.

I shot the load for 5 shots at 760 and 660. You should have seen how ugly the upper velocity node loads were at 200. Probably 3". Funny thing is that they grouped 3" at 600 yards as well. Seen this more than a few times in my development.

Dropping down to the lower velocity node loads showed a stark contrast in accuracy. 1/2 MOA all the way out....

got any pics of the rifle? did I miss it in an earlier thread?

It's a Score High Gunsmithing job.

Remington Blue Printed Long Action BDL
26" Brux Stainless Light Palma 8 twist
Score High Hunting Brake
Jewell Trigger at around 2 pounds
McMillan Stock for the 700
Leupold Mark 4 6.5-20 LR/ERT M5 FF plane TMR mounted in Leupold Dual Dovetails
Stoney Point Rapid Pivot Bipod set up


I had a VX3 mounted on it in this pic.

Hows that bad boy throated?

RC, you sure don't mess around with crappy gear. very nice rifle. really looks like you've just done everything right on that one.

Nothing out of the ordinary. Charley's reamer had a fairly standard throat as far as I could tell. I chose to shoot the Swift Scirocco's first and quickly abandoned them. Went to the VLD next. Bullets with the VLD style ogive are really perfect for the throat as you can seat them longer; they then don't take up any case capacity.

I looked at the A-Max last night and how far it seated into the case. It's perfect. At .015" off of the lands, the main bearing surface at the boat tail junction is right at the neck/shoulder junction.

When building the rifle, I talked to the gunsmith about having some throat put in. He said, "It's a .264 Win Mag! If you want more throat, just shoot it a few times!" LOL.




Thanks! Score High builds nice rifles.

FWIW, I have a load in my 223 that shoots lights out at 600 and beyond.

I used it once on a WINDY match at 300 yards, which is really gravy shooting distance, and had my azz handed to me on a platter to so speak.... It SUCKED at that close a range, vs what my standard 300 yard 75 amax load would do.

So I know which load to use where after that day. And I tried it a couple of times more just to verify...

Just FYI, not that it will mean anything to you, but do trust the paper results IE actual shooting at actual distances.

When building the rifle, I talked to the gunsmith about having some throat put in. He said, "It's a .264 Win Mag! If you want more throat, just shoot it a few times!" LOL.

[quote]

That right there is funny! I just had Jim Borden throat mine for the 140 Hunting VLD so I can use them and also the 140 A-max as I will just have to seat the A-max a little deeper in the case.

A note on the WC-872

Pretty dirty stuff. Cleaning the rifle now

Also would bet the reason it's dirty is 3300 fps welding

Have you tried any other powders in it? Mine likes 65g 7828 with some 140's, I've also ran up to 66g h1000 and 68g retumbo.

Bb

I plan on trying 7828 ssc and rl 22 in mine

You'll find they're way too fast

I've worked with the .264 WM in the past, don't own one presently.

If I was working with it, I'd try RL-33. And, it's one powder that seems to be available. It was made for the .338 Lapua, but from what I've heard, is very good in the .264 WM.

DF

RC is WC-872 the one to start with in your experience?

Hey Dirtfarmer
I've got some RL33 to try. Only one pound and can't find anymore, so I haven't gone there yet.

BD
Yes.

Thank you RC. All i could find for other components was Nosler brass and federal 215 magnum primers. How'd I do?

Also I really appreciate you sharing your 264 experience as there isn't much out there and you know what your doing!

I bought a truly mint P-64 "Westerner" in .264 several years ago and had it "pillared" into a spare Micky "G&H" stock I had from another project. It wears Leupy DDs and I started with one of my pair of older Leupy Vari-X-III 3.5x10x50 scopes, but, as soon as I scraped together the $$$$, I changed to a Conquest 4.5x14 and found that loading was both simple and VERY accurate.....beyond my 67 yr. old eyes ability to shoot as I once could.

I had the usual limitations on powder availability one experiences here in Canada and tried RE-22, which has done SO well for me in several other cartridges, especially the .338WM and the .270Win. So, I found some std. 7828 and loaded both the 125 and 140 NPs over 65 and 63 grains, respectively.

Bingo, Done, shoots "lights out" and the 125 goes 3350, while the 140 runs 3250 with zero indications of excess pressures and tiny groups. I bought a whack of brass, NPs and made up some ammo and now it sits there, waiting for me to, hopefully, be able to afford a Pronghorn hunt in S.E. Alberta....someday.....

I dunno that for ME and many "average" hunters, this sort of rig is really much "better" for shots to maybe 400 yds.m but, it is EASY to shoot, to load and it has this certain "thing" about it, that just makes me not sell it as I have so many rifles recently.

RE-33 is new to me and I must see if this is available here in Canada as some powders, i.e., "Magpro" are not, due to licencing boolsheet by "gub'mints".

Looks like you've done well! I've been playing with the .264 for a while. Tested at least 7 powders in it for velocity mostly. Always have had some difficulty making it shoot well, but I think it's because I would try to get the Nth degree of velocity out of it.

Unlike kutenay, I haven't been able to get the speed he says with the 140 grain bullets unless I'm using the SLOWEST burning powder like WC-872

I do remember with the 129 SST and W-780 some velocities up around 3300. Never loaded it for accuracy with that combo though.

My approach is to shoot the highest BC bullet as fast as possible (with accuracy of course) and to do that, the WC-872 was the only powder I have tried that gives over 3200 with the 140's. The RL33 is supposedly the same burn rate as Retumbo, with which others have had success, but it's supposed to be formulated like RL17 and give higher velocities. I think that RL50 may be good to try as well, but the WC872 works and only costs around 40$ for an 8# jug. Haven't tested it for temperature stability but have heard it's finicky. Seems to do what I want it to though

My Western Powders burn chart shows RL-25 and Retumbo on the same line; RL-33 is reportedly slower than RL-25. I understand it's made in Switzerland by Nitrochemie, like RL-17. How progressive it is, as compared to RL-17, I don't know. I don't think it's been worked with by enough people for any conclusions. And all the data from Alliant is for the .338 Lapua, nothing for any other round.

DF

with a 264 I disagree DONOT shoot 5 shot groups. there is no point in that other than to help destroy your barrel. 5 shots quickly from a 264 is quite a bit of stress to put on your barrel. the solution is just shoot a couple more 3 shot groups to verify. you will never need more than 3 shots in the field and with a 264 and that much heat there is probably enough heat to be changing things.

I agree and several guys I have known and shot with over the years have also had P-64 "Westerners", which all seem to shoot "bugholes" and fast. I tend to shoot " 2 shot" groups to get my sight-in where I can then go with 3 shots per to check for best accuracy.

The P-64-70 tubes are sts and seem to last quite well, but, no point in burning out the leade as these are fairly costly to re-barrel and once you have one "tuned", best to just keep it for shooting at game over great distances, IMHO.

Yeah, I would never shoot 5 shot strings with such a round, not at least while working up loads. I may, after adequate cooling, shoot 5 shot groups with a load I thought has promise.

For my use, 140 VLD's at 3,000 fps in a very good rifle with a high quality turret scope, is all I need. That extra 150 or even 200 fps comes at too great a cost, at least for me.

The 6.5-284, in my experience, is so much easier to load for than the .264 WM, that I doubt I'll ever own another .264 WM.

IMHO,

DF

both 264's I had were problem guns speed and accuracy never came together. I think the long VLD's don't do well after a certain speed level. a 6.5-284 running 140's at 2950 ish is as fast as I think you can get good accuracy in most cases out of those bullets. I had dreams of a long jevelin like bullet like a 140 vld running out of my barrel at or in excess of 3200 fps with .5 MOA accuracy. burned through a lot of powder and bullets trying to find it. never did.

Well, as you can see here, a .264 Win that shoots bullets at 3230 at 1/2 MOA is exactly what I have. You may not have used the right powder to get the potential out of the round.

The problem with the .264 is the fact that no new load data for the new, modern powders that really make the .264 shine has been published.

Mule Deer wrote an article for Handloader with updated load data for the .264 which was good, but still I think you'll find that the cartridge will perform better with slower powders than those he tested. There is some data for US-869 (a currently produced very slow powder made by Hodgdon) on one of the bullet manufacturer's websites, but IME, even slower powders work better

2,950 fps was the ceiling for speed while maintaining accuracy, until I switched to RL-17. With that powder, I lost accuracy and started seeing pressure signs at 3,100 fps, got solid performance with great ES's and no pressure issues at 3,000 fps and that's where she runs to this day.

To me 3,000 fps is about optimal for a 6.5mm, 140 gr. VLD. With a good turret, I can do what I need to do as far as I need to be shooting. Where I hunt, I don't need 7-800 yd. capacity and if I did, I'd go to a larger round.

DF

For mine, 65 grains of 7828 under a 140 AMAX gave the best accuracy I was able to get. Slower powders yet might maybe give more speed but gave up some accuracy.

Tom

does 12 powders sound like enough?? problem was I would get a great grouping in one type of condition then the condition would change and the groups would go to 1.25 moa

I think Rick just demonstrated that the long VLDs don't need to be relegated to sub-3,000fps speeds.

My point was that even if you try 100 powders all with faster burn rates than what is optimal for the .264, you haven't used the right powder.

The .264 has an 82 grain capacity. If you are using powders that show pressure at 65 grains, the case fill and velocity will be anemic. It's also about 79% case fill.

WC-872 gives good case fill. I loaded the ladder all the way to 80 grains, but found a little pressure around 78.5. That's 96% case fill as to capacity. Most cartridges perform best with powders that fill the case.

The 140 VLD exited my barrel at 3230 on the way to this guy...

Hey RC can you give me some kind of estimate of how long my barrel will last.

I do not plan on abusing it and shooting it shot after shot while the barrel is hot.

I would say 2 to 3 thousand

"I would say 2 to 3 thousand " No way...More like 1100 or possibly 1500. Mine has only 150 through it and it is showing fire cracking. no 5 shot groups and cleaned carefully every25-30 rounds.

I haven't even put those killer charges of WC872 through it.....yet

My .257 Roy was completly burnt at 1100 rounds

Lefty C

I read the article as well.....but the Hawkeye doesn't lie. My barrel, a lilija is only a #2 perhaps it heats faster? At 150 rounds it definably is starting to show some fire cracking.

I competed with a 6.5X284 in 1000 yard benchrest. That barrel, a Krieger went about 1000 rounds before it lost competitive accuracy. Benchrest is pretty hard on barrels with 10 shot groups fired rapidly + sighters, but there is a lot of history out there with 6.5X284 shot out at 1000-1200 rounds. I can't believe the .264 will be any better.
I am being really careful with mine and once I have a good load worked up it will have a pretty easy life.

Lefty C

I got 2500 rounds out of a Win Classic factory barrel in 264. But I loaded all of my rounds to about 3150 fps.

I shot quite a few 100 gr ballistic tip or 120 gr Rem core lokt through it loaded with H4831 to 3150 fps. This gave me a similar trajectory curve for my plinking or varmint rounds as I had with 140 gr Sierra hunting rounds.

Now she is wearing a 27 inch Pac-Nor #5 and fed a diet of 130 accubonds.

I was able to make 3250 with the 130 and H1000, Retumbo tentatively produced 3400 fps with the same bullet, but I have not shot it for accuracy. Magnum produced 3350 fps.

Surprisingly, H870 proved to be totally unsuitable in this rifle. 75 gr of H870 only gave 3125 fps (130 AB) and the bolt was a little stiff. 77 gr produced 3250 fps with the 130 AB and the bolt was quite stiff.

That's interesting IS, thanks for adding the info.

Went back out today. Increased the load 1/2 grain.





Shot another group not quite that good but under 1 MOA. Going back out for some steel later

Thats some great shooting!
RC - what is your seating depth for these loads? touching lands or did you have to tweak the load at all?

Thanks as always.

My 6.5-284 is a hunting rifle with a 26" Krieger. It's showing some throat erosion thru the Hawkeye with only 400 rounds. It's still half MOA.

I thought about David Tubb's TMS (throat maintenance system) if the accuracy starts dropping off.

DF

The load is showing some vertical at long range. I'm going back to the upper velocity load tomorrow and doing a seating depth test to tune it out hopefully

The best depth was .025" off the lands so far with the lower accuracy node

Rick, when you say "some vertical" how much is unacceptable? I know seeing 3/4-1 MOA is discouraging to me personally, but our rifles are on a bit different level, too.....

Yep Tanner, I'm seeing an MOA. From the Audette ladder, the last 3 shots were a fantastic node but right on the edge of pressure. I shot the middle load and it shot great at long range but sucked at 200.

Seems like I find that often with loads that are hot

I dropped it down to a load that was possibly in a node (76-76 1/2-77) but it's showing vertical. I'm gonna see if I can make the 78 gr load shoot at 200 by playing with depth. If I can't, I may accept it anyway because it seems to "go to sleep" at long range.

All that "history" for the 6.5/284 is from competition and in no way is comparable to hunting use. Most of our LR tac comp rifles in 243win get replaced between 1,500-2,000 rounds, yet hunting rifles chambered for same generally double that.

The bore scope means nothing to me. I don't care what a bore looks like, I care how it shoots.

Me too. The target rules.

BUT, when it quits shooting, the scope is a great tool to see what's happening and to aid in a rational solution to the problem.

DF

Ok, last update.

Went out today to try to tune the 78 grain load with seating depth adjustments and couldn't make any acceptable headway.

My last load was with the Berger Hunting VLD. I brought some of them with me to seat at the range just in case Mr. A-Max wouldn't cooperate. Seated some close to the lands and it liked them pretty well. Showed pressure with some ejector marks.

I ran the Berger seating adjustment test. They shot good close to the lands and at .060" off. The .060" off had no vertical, but the longer version stacked them vertically on the paper. Loaded 25. 15 at .060" off and 10 .010" longer than the long batch. My notes showed that the long test batch should have been ON the lands. I figured I'd run these 10 at .010" longer to see if I could get rid of the vertical. Shot a 200 yard group under 1 MOA with some vertical stringing.

Dialed 560 yards and shot a freshly painted plate for 3. Printed a group about 4" wide and 2" of vertical. I was pleased.

Dialed the 710 plate and shot another 4 that literally had about 2" of vertical.

I don't really get it but the bullet must be "going to sleep" as they say and getting better at longer ranges. The Berger VLD definitely shot better than the A-Max

It was close to 90 degrees today. The cases showed pressure but its a hunting rifle and will be used in lower temps. I figure today was the hottest temp I'd ever shoot the load in. The powder probably has some temperature sensitivity.

Clocked in at 3250 in Ballistic AE for accurate drops out to 710.

I'm done fiddlin'

Just cleaned and JB'd the barrel. Measured throat erosion.

.020" since the last check last year; about 300 rounds. The depth I chose puts the Berger on the lands. May move it .005" forward and see.

Update on barrel life fears with the .264 Winchester Magnum/WC-872


After cleaning the bore, took it to my gunsmith for a health checkup with a Hawkeye Bore Scope. I don't keep accurate records on amount of rounds down the bore, but I know it's at least 700 at this point.

No fire cracking whatsoever
End of the chamber looks new. He says usually they're blown out with this cartridge.
Still a little carbon, so I'll JB it again. Lands sharp.

He says that very slow burning ball powder is probably the reason it looks so good.

I'll be taking it to the Sporting Rifle Match to wring it out this weekend. We decided to take our hunting rifles only this time since it's the last match of the year before hunting season.

Bring your lightweight rifle, Tanner!

My lightweight rifle is being traded for a Swaro spotter

Should have a new one done in a week or 2.

The 243AI?

Then bring your heavy one.

Bang them and lose them.
Good on you.

Forgot.
When you dump the Swaro, PM me.
Thanks.

Importanter szchit called.
The Swaro will thank me.

Thought ball powders were harder on throats!

RC - As I have a 264 coming can you please tell me a good cleaning regime.

i.e. when do you know when to clean, how often, and how.

Yessir! Having access to a good bore scope really tells you if you are doing things right!

First of all, I'm glad to hear you have a brand new rifle coming in .264WM! If you really "hear" what I'm telling you, you will use the learning curve that "Others" before you in .264 folklore have forged.

There's a couple or three guys over on AR that really know how to make match ammo and load for the .264 Winchester Magnum. Stonecreek is the gentleman who pointed me the right direction with regards to powder in the cartridge.
The very FIRST, and foremost thing about loading for it is the fact that there never in History been a powder manufactured that is slow-burning enough to actually allow the .264 to achieve its velocity and accuracy potential. Use the slowest stuff you can find, even with the lighter bullet offerings.

US-869, about the slowest powder on the chart, is barely acceptable to me even with the 130's.

WC-872 is what stonecreek uses and he's right.

I tested 8 powders including Retumbo, RL-25, W-870, IMR 4350, mag pro, H-4831, WC-872 etc... WC yielded the highest velocities without pressure signs than any and was more predictable. I mean, with the other powders you were fine with load X, then he next shot up at 1/2 grain increase got ugly.

With WC-872, there was a flatter range of a grain or so that showed some pressure, but you could still have easy extraction and no sticky bolt. The loads up there rip along at 3250 fps with a 140 high BC muther.

We really need to talk about barrel break-in since this is a brand new tube!
I really have been following my gunsmith's "Shoot and Clean" Regimen! Here's what to do!

Shoot once then clean

Shoot again, then clean

One more time, then clean!


Then from there on out, you just shoot 5 times then clean forever.

DEFINITION OF SHOOTING ONCE
""Shooting once means going to the range and shooting as many rounds as you care to. After "shooting once", clean.

Here's how I clean,

Shooters Choice soaked patches till powder fouling is gone. Run a wet patch SLOWLY to the muzzle and out. Pick it off the jag, turn it over, soak it again and run it back through. Change patches and repeat. Use tightly fitting patches for the last few new ones. I cut a small one and use a full one on top all on a .243 jag. I like having more patch than jag.

Brush it with tight-fitting bronze brush soaked with SC for 10 end to end.

Let sit for 10 minutes, patch out dry.

Squirt foaming bore cleaner in the chamber end (Wipe Out or Gunslick foaming bore cleaner). Let sit overnight or at least 2 hours. Brush with bronze brush then patch out

Always clean the bronze brush right after you use it with any copper remover. I use carburetor cleaner spray. Helps them last longer.

Continue the above (Bore Foam routine) till no color, black or blue is on your patches.

Every 200 rounds:

JB Non-Embedding Bore Compound on a patch wrapped around a worn out bronze brush, short-stoked end to end till your arm gets tired, twice. Patch out. Finish with a patch of alcohol.

Drink a Makers Mark and smile

What contour barrel on your rifle ? Thinking the really light contour on my NULA heats up very fast. Perhaps that why I am seeing some slight fire cracking after only 150 rounds.
Received 8lbs of WC-872 today so this w/e should start working up some loads with some 140's

LC

RC - Pretty much exactly what I was looking for and I appreciate the detail in your post. Thank you and good shooting!

Lefty - I used a 1-8" #3 Brux. I'll let you know how it goes!

I've heard that as well, but you should see how good this looks. Really like new

Light Palma

A .264" 140 grain bullet at 3,250 is pretty dang amazing out of the .264...

My next build will be either a large capacity .264" or .284" strictly for coues deer. Not that there are flies on the 7mm-08....

This thread has me reevaluating my cartridge choices...

Great info and just in time for I have a new 264 win mag coming in mid sep. Will start looking for WC-872 and give it a try.

I got plenty.........laffin'

Just got finished doing some testing with Alliant's new powder offering; RL-33

Looks to me right now that it may be the "Go To" powder for the .264

Ran a ladder with the 140 VLD from 66 grains to 73 grains since the powder was unknown to me. I had talked with the Ballistician at Alliant and he told me the burn rate was similar to Retumbo, maybe a touch slower. I began with the 66 grain charge and velocity was puny at 2750. I began stepping up in full grain increments till 70.5 which gave me 3000 fps. No Pressure.

Since I only planned on 73 grains as being the top end, I had to load a few more up from there. Started shooting the ladder from there up in .5 grain increments all the way to 78 grains, still no pressure.

Velocity was fantastic and over 3350 at the top end. Great accuracy node at the 3000 fps range (70.5 to 73) and at 3150 to 3200 fps range (74 to 75 grains)

My best 200 yard load was 74.5 grains with the bullet seated to touch the lands, Fed 215M

No pics, had to get my azz to work....

Have 8# WC872 on it's way. Now just have to wait for rifle

still got beaver fever I see............ sad that....

JUST FYI for those interested in 264 win / WC872 data,....Keep in mind, I have only been loading the 264 win for a few months but here's some figures in my work up loads, none of which have been shot for groups. Just worked up in half grain increments with WC872. Most of the 140s probably were at max velocities, but the 120 grain bullets may not be maxed out (besides the HNDY GMX's)...

Handy interlock 140..76.5gr-3174 fps, : 78gr-3244
Speer 140 sp ...76.5gr-3129fps: 77.5gr-3220
Nos 140 BT...77gr.-3152 fps: 78gr-3220, slightly stiff bolt appeared from 78.5-79.5gr. With no noticeable increase in velocity.
Nos 140 ptn, 76gr-3000 fps: 79gr.-3167
HNDY I.B. 129, 76gr -3108: 78.5-3252
HNDY GMX 129, 77gr-3200: 79.5-3341
Barnes 120 ttsx 75gr-2976: 80gr-3228 (very accurate bullet at all loads at 100yds)
Nos 120 BT, 77gr-3115 fps: 80.5g-3292

These are loads for my rifle only, work up with caution.


Here's one 3 shot load (all different powder volumes, in 1/2 gr increments) with the ttsx at 100yrds)


I am no target shooter, just a hunter who likes to reload...just FYI.

Good info, I figured it was a great powder for the heavies not the light ones..
I wonder though if it would sling my 130 grain TSX's at warp speed out of my 30" barrel...hmmm

RBH,

What barrel length on your rifle?

thanks,

Lefty

26",