You guys hunting with 30 cal 155 Scenars: what kind of terminal performance could I expect when impact velocity is 2000 and below?

Dead Critters..............

I've seen them crush a very nice brown bear (9' & 27") at something like 2200 fps. Seeing their effect would make it hard for me to believe that they'd bounced off if they were a tad slower........

It'd be tough to trump the deadening they can do.

Hell...they even hold together when Subsonic..............(grin)

The only criticism I've heard from anyone I know (not pushing the design's possible limits) is that they don't open as fast as Bergers. How are they are 3k on something big and heavy?

Bergers aren't even on the same PLANET................(hint)

Not being a reloader I must ask, w/ great trepidation, who makes these in 308. Thanks in advance.

mike r

Lapua and Cor-Bon

You'll want to fasten your seat belt,with Cor-Bon...............(grin)

.284 Bergers at 3000-3200 fps are one shot killers for Rocky Mountain elk and moose. I have used this bullet myself, watched my son (we use 140 gr or 168 gr), and my neighbor (168 gr and 180 gr with the latter at about 2800)all demonstrate the same results numerous times. I can't be made to believe they are not totally effective. The same neighbor shot a Yukon moose (I forget how it scored, but it was exceptional) at about 1000 yards with a 180 VLD from a 7 Rem Mag. Again a one shot kill. This video was on You Tube for a while but I don't know if it still is there as this occurred back in 2010 or 2011. This is not to say that there are not equal choices among the other brands of bullets but I tend to use what works for me in the field.

Wow!

Thanks for sharing!.............

Yep. The Bergers really stink�

168gr VLD, 10 shots at 100m, about .6 MOA.



155gr VLD, DRT.



155gr VLD,DRT



155gr VLD. Ran maybe 30 yards.



130gr VLD, DRT



130gr VLD. Moved maybe 15 feet and was too sick to move further.



130gr VLD. Made it maybe 30 yards.

[img]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/Hondo64d/39aee0c9.jpg[/img]

130gr VLD. DRT.

[img]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/Hondo64d/d62e8e1f.jpg[/img]

115gr VLD. DRT.

[img]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/Hondo64d/IMG_0389-1.jpg[/img]

115gr VLD. DRT.

[img]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/Hondo64d/IMG_0388-1.jpg[/img]

To be continued�

John

Hondo,

Holy Smokes,that is some magnificent work!...................

Really nice photos and info Hondo. I need to post some of my kills with 140 gr and 168 gr VLD's. The species vary but the shots are as impressive. Thanks for sharing these pictures.

155gr VLD. DRT.



155gr Scenar Ran about 100 yards.



155gr Scenar. DRT.



The pig and the coyote are the only things I've shot with the Scenar so far. Scenar Shooter has indicated they are a bit harder in construction than VLDs and based on the very small sample size of the critters I've shot with them, I believe him.

That being said, they are very easy to get to shoot well. Here's a couple of groups at 400 and 500 yards. Plates are 8":

400 yards.



500 yards.



John

Holy SMOKES...that is AWESOME!

Thought for a minute you were going to regale us with how the multitude of critters you have shot with VLDs somehow got away unharmed. I should have known better. I am fortunate in that I don't have to guess...

John

Thanks for the pics John! Those steel plates...great shooting!

I have a lot of confidence in VLDs. They do as well as anything I've seen. My only complaint is they haven't opened fast enough. The wound channels have looked like std CE hunting bullets. I shoot for the ribs though.

True. On broadside shots on small critters, they don't really come unglued until a pretty good ways into the vitals. Even so, they have anchored everything I've shot with them much quicker than other bullets on the average.

I still plan on shooting more stuff with the Scenars though. They are very easy to get to shoot well, the BCs are great and there has been enough success with them on critters by others that I am sure going to give them a fair shake.

John

Hondo64,

I reckon that when you are done guessing,you will see the Scenar light and still be sluicing Rats,Dinks and Vermin.

ToldjaSo..................(hint)

Yes! Everything I've shot with Bergers have been anchored, and none went far. I'm sold, and I have a bunch left, plus a bunch of other bullets I want to try out. I'd not be surprised if Scenars ended up on that list. Too bad the 185 isn't markedly more slick than the 155. They should have scaled it better.

I am very happy with with Scenar's, and see no need to switch. 3 elk and a Dall ram so far.

Haven't owned a gun yet that liked to shoot Bergers.

Wow...!

Bet you didn't spend much time working on loads and COAL's.

DF

My VLD testing involved shooting good groups, seating bullets out further, shooting better groups, adjusting one more time, shooting great groups.

My bro picked a load and a seating depth, shot just under and inch, though stringy, and called it good.

Secant ojive bullets do best when tuned, as one seating depth will do better than others. This goes for VLD, or Hornady, or any others with secant ojives.

For high ogive bullets, check out the following Berger protocol for COAL. It saves a bunch of range time and simplifies the process. It also works for SSII's, A-Max and similar.

DF



Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets
Solution
The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a �sweet spot�. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won�t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.

Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).

Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don�t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith

Yeah that process should work for anyone loading for secant OGIVES. Misspelled it in my post above.

Tangent ogives center in the throat more easily, and are less sensitive to seating depth. They also have poorer BC. Berger's Classic Hunter line has a tangent profile where bullets contact the throat, and that is the science behind their Hybrid design: first thousandths of the nose off the bearing surface have a tangental profile, and the rest of the nose has a VLD profile. This makes them less sensitive to throat geometry and seating depth.

I've killed mule deer with 30 cal 155 Scenars out of a 300 WSM and various Bergers.

Scenars killed ok, but not near as quick as the Bergers.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/information/success-stories/hunting/p1/

No, too much time. Their varmint bullets shoot great. The VLD's are a pain in the ass compared to Scenars and Amax.

They can be a pain to get to shoot in a hunting rifle for sure.

But, if you can get them dialed in they work great.

Yep.

When they hot, they hot.

When they not, they not...

DF

Even Berger must have acknowledged they are a pain in the ass, or they wouldn't have developed the Hybrid.

Berger puts out proven methods to help people shoot them to their capability in a gun. I don't see many bullet manufacturers admitting that their bullets are not without flaws, and helping people find ways around those. What I have seen is that they oversell their products' good points, and remain closed-mouthed about potential problems. I don't criticize Berger for their honesty.

Mine have been pretty hot I guess. Course same rigs are bugholing 180 scenars too.

Appreciate the grandiose humor!..................

I hate Berger on the average and nearly as much as SMK's and NBT's...which is something.(grin)

That being said,the 6mm 105 Hybrid,do nice things. It ain't no Scenar or Hornie HPBT,but it flies nice................

Jerry Reed.

Sort of a Southern thang...

Who cain't appreciate Fred?.............

Scenar, RL 17, and lots of magbox makes the 30-06 almost respectable.

That's what 308Win guys have been WISHING for................(grin)

Watched SU35 dump a near 300lb Mule Deer buck with a 6.5 130gr Berger on the run 200yds. [bleep] hit the ground like the chute didn't open. Bullet performance was spectacular (lung).. I doubt a Scenar would of caused that much trama. It was like bleeding out a salmon. One of the best tasting bucks ever..

Cool!

You ALMOST done for yourself..................

Your right! Not sure how much I missed that one by.. Most likely alot! At least my chcunt wasn't on the couch. And I wasn't pretending...

Pretend to THE end...if only as you must.

Bless your heart............

Just what I've always wanted to do! Pretend to miss "the shot"!

I didn't realize that several hundred years of projectile use have been futile, and that no one ever killed anything until Scenars were blessedly manufactured, on edict from the Divine Christ, to finally bless worshipful hunters with a bullet that will not bounce off game, if the previously damned things could hit anything at all.

Amen.

Lotsa folks don't realize lotsa stuff and those facts typically gets them to Whining,as they wax eloquent from but one side of the fence.

I shoot more in a day,than most do in a year and I assure you that not all bullets are equal................(hint)

Scenar, TAC, and a decent magbox do the same for the .308.

Tac never showed me anything,in any chambering.

Lapooey cases,'15 and a Skinner do shine brightly,even in the POS 308 hull...........

Stick,

What's your favorite .308, RL-15 load with 155's?

DF

Krunchenticker...............

Oh well...

Didn't hurt to ask...

DF

I'm no Stick but here's my load

RL15 45.0
Lapua brass
Fed 210
155 Scenar
2870 fps

5 shots 400 yard steel (the imprint on the back tells the tale)

I missed the "load" part and thought you were asking which platform I like squirting Skinners from most,that wears a 308Win chamber...which is a Krunchenticker.

Every chamber I've had/have whether OEM or Custom,will happily digest 45grs of '15 in Lapooeys................

Thanks, guys.

Was what I was looking for.

DF

Didn't want you starting your day off with Hurt Feelers..............(grin)

308, RL15, 155 Scenar is cheatin!

It'll damned near make a 308 viable.

Almost!..............(grin)

I'm with you on the Lapooies, but with TAC I can get 2975 24") without breaking a sweat, and accurate too.

BT/DT...suffered through all my Tac forming cases.

Junk...........

I've tried 15. It's OK.

I hear good things.

I would buy the DVD of you "trying"................

And I'd sell it to you.

Seems LR .308 shooters use Varget more than any other powder, at least from what I've seen on line.

I have all three, RL-15, Varget and TAC.

May have to try them all. Varget works so well in the .22-204 and it's so hard to find, I was sorta wanting to save my limited supply for that round. But, a few test .308 rounds may be interesting.

RL-15 is probably the one I'll be using mostly, as I have a good supply.

DF

You flatter yourself.

Now when you are REALLY "trying" and doing your "best",what sort of platforms are you using as barometers of these "evaluation"?

Barrels,chambers,throats,twist,mounts,glass,etc.?

It will be funny!..............

Suffer through the Varget,before you drive '15.....................(hint)

I won't suffer it long...

DF

I've never savvied the attraction and I don't know anyone who guns it,even in reserve...............

Is this an awkward silence?!?....................(grin)

Last time out was at Huntsman22's place, shooting PD's at 550+ in a stiff wind.

Didn't think it was notable enough to take videos of.

I'd rather talk results than components. But if you're that concerned with what other guys shoot, it was a GAP non-typical, Bartlein 5R, lightweight Talleys, and a PM-II 10X.

Go ahead an tell me how worthless it is, now that'll be funny. If not 100% predictable.

DF, try 46 grains of TAC and a 155, I'd be curious to see how it does in your rig, in mine it surpasses varget in velocity and accuracy. And varget is really good.

I asked YOU,in which of YOUR rifles...do YOU make YOUR determinations.

Curiously enough,great componetry allows for great results.(hint)

So when finding THE powder,it's at 550yds in stiff winds?

Looking forward to even more humor!..................

Thanks, smokepole.

Will do. I may just try that load and the 45 gr. RL-15 load. I don't want to use up my Varget. If it's as lackluster in the .308 as Stick says, no use to burn any.

DF

Sprinkle it on Slugs in the garden...they'll start licking their azzes,to get the taste outta their mouths.................(grin)

TAC works pretty well for me too with Lapua brass and 155s, but I just ran a series over the chrono maybe an hour ago using LCNM brass and could only get to 44gr @2873 before reaching pressure signs. of course it was ONLY 100+ degrees� With Lapua brass I have easily gotten to 2930 with 46gr at cooler temps.

John

Gotta be some real nasty stuff..

DF

My go-to load as well. Can easily get 2930ish with 46gr and no pressure signs but accuracy is better at 45.

John

Full blown "icky"..................

Seems to be a firm consensus on 45 gr. RL-15.

DF

OEM rifles are gonna require more powder,to make like pressure of a Custom spout,due it's tighter chamber/throat and bore.

Never had a rifle not happily digest 45 and shoot more for sure,in some............

Trust them.....they work better than good.

Anyone happen to know the BC of the new Scenar-L .308 155gr.?

Will go that route,after I've exhausted what I've got on hand.

Didn't want to taste it and suffer 2nd fiddle...............(grin)

Lapua website is showing the 155 L's to have the same BC's as the traditional.

Pat, good to see you posting. Just read a PM frpm our good bud, Hi_Vel. He got his Reticle Tru patented. I congratulated his hard work.

Scenars: You and Stick both saying to go with them... I'm sold. Using 139's in my 6.5x55 and am going to load some 155's in my .308. I like what I see so far. Will report.

DF

Don't overlook the 123's in 6.5, good BC for that weight bullet, and accurate too.

What about 6mm? Stick what do you recommend? I've currently got 105 amax, 105vld hunting and 105 hybrids. Just waiting for my rifle to arrive next week.

I was avoiding light weight Scenars for deer after 90 gr. .240 loads were way too explosive, but they were moving pretty fast. Pat sent me some 105's to try but my 10 twist .240 wouldn't stabilize them. A 9+ twist .243 Rem wouldn't either. Probably need an 8 twist or so.

DF

I've got an 8 twist rock creek in 243match coming this week. Can't wait!

I asked YOU,in which of YOUR rifles...do YOU make YOUR determinations.

Curiously enough,great componetry allows for great results.(hint)

So when finding THE powder,it's at 550yds in stiff winds?

Looking forward to even more humor!..................

What's the application? Chambering,twist,COAL?..............

Was a Post shy of reading the whole thread and see your specifics,other than COAL. 700? AICS-esque DBM or ADL/BDL?.............

243win 8twist 2.950 Wyatt's box installed

Yes, I know you did. And who said anything about testing loads in stiff winds?

805,

You are GOLDEN in latitude...well done.

For bloodspill,I'd take the 'Max over the Berger(s). For distant dastardly pursuits without heartbeats,the Hybrid really is a wicked bastard.

Bang for the buck and connecting all dots,Hornie HPBT..............

smokepole,

You are sooooooooo clueless,it is amazing..................

For distant dastardly pursuits without heartbeats,the Hybrid really is a wicked bastard.

I wish that I haden't read that. Just finished up a 243 AI load for antelope and coues deer with 105 Hybrids at 3125

Shoot 'em like broadheads and you'll pad the equation..............

Avoid the hard stuff. I get it

It'll do you favors............

I just wish you cracked me up half as much as you crack yourself up.

Now that'd be funny.

You ain't got nearly half the smarts,to keep nearly half the pace...which does of course add more than a whole bunch to the humor.

GOOD call to skirt the Imaginary rifle(s) "particulars",it wasn't going to be pretty...............(hint)

I'm not skirting anything, what was the particular you were interested in?

Running the 155 at 2.85" kissing and 2950 avg from 46 or 47 gr of Varget...oops!


Might haul it up this year after Muley if I don't go caveman on them with the .44 mag....

Now I just got to find some unsuspecting soul to dump all my other .308 bullets on....

Go caveman, I dare ya. I'll buy the bullets if it comes to that.

Yeah what others do you have? I'm always in the market for more throwaway bullets!

Only the 3rd time:

I asked YOU,in which of YOUR rifles...do YOU make YOUR determinations.

Curiously enough,great componetry allows for great results.(hint)

So when finding THE powder,it's at 550yds in stiff winds?

Looking forward to even more humor!..................

How easy is it to get them to shoot well? My 30-06 has a very, very long throat, so in order to keep bullets in cases, they'll have to be off the lands. How would you recommend I go about figuring a seating depth? I usually start about as far out as I can get and go deeper.

I appreciate any advice you can offer. If I can shoot them accurately at or above 3k, they will shoot pretty flat. I'm always willing to try bullets that cost less than 50 cents apiece!

You should start listening..................(hint)

Yet another Awkward Silence Bump(ASB):

Only the 3rd time:

I asked YOU,in which of YOUR rifles...do YOU make YOUR determinations.

Curiously enough,great componetry allows for great results.(hint)

So when finding THE powder,it's at 550yds in stiff winds?

Looking forward to even more humor!..................

I see some bump the lands, some jump'em.

Is the 155 Scenar in the .308, COAL sensitive?

Or asked another way, is there an optimal jump range? This is a hunting application, not LR target.

DF

I haven't found the Scenars to be seating depth sensitive at all. In my rig, the 155s shoot a hair better when about .020" off the lands than when slightly into the lands, but the difference is minimal.

John

I've found the 155's very insensitive to seating depth. Like I said before, the RL15 & Lapua brass combo feels like cheating.

I'm ALWAYS gonna kiss when I can and leap only when forced.............

So, you want me to describe my current .308 set-up, and you've already asked 3 times, do I have that right?

Just want to make sure I answer your question correctly, this is important stuff.

It's funny how far everything is over your head!....................

I'm 6'3", think how much farther it is over yours.

Schit often gets stacked deep,as you attest.

Your Powder "Testing" is hilarious....like everything else you "do"!...............

LOL!

Oh it's funnier than that,but for reasons that need explained to you.................(grin)

It's more about the indian than the arrow, but please, go on, keep talking about your arrows.

Beware the best Indian,with the best arrows...............(hint)

Indians and arrows...meh. Booze and diseased blankets, followed by welfare checks. Then the only hope is building casinos and selling fireworks.

They can only do the best they can,with what little they have to work with.

Have actually worked with a couple Good 'Un's,but they's few and far.............

Well, that's mighty white of you.

I'm at ease in being a Honky.

Hey I'm curious,what does some as stupid as you "do" for a "Living"?

Thanks!...............

We've been through this before. Any time you wanna match W-2's to see who comes out on top, let me know!!

Thanks!!

Love the Secret Squirrel stuff!...................

Interesting cut-away from another post.
7mm's L-R, 150 Scenar,180 Scenar and a 168 Berger

I'm going with the 155 scenars this year in my 300 wsm. They are running 3350 fps and sub 1/2 moa. I've used them for a while in 308 and they've been my go to bullet in my 1st gen Ti 30-06 so I thought I'd give them a try with a little more speed.

Bb

Well seeing as I'm no reloading expert, Im pretty impressed with my results with the 155 Scenar in my 30-06 paired up with H4350. Seeing as I'm shooting it out of a Tikka, kissin lands is no option. I loaded em as long as the mag would allow and still function reliably and it doesn't appear to be a handicap. I've got em right at 3.34 OAL and they're shooting less than an inch size groups at 200 yards. I Just hope they kill well as I've never shot these bullets before.

At 100 for 5

At 200 yards

My 30-06 seems to do pretty decent with the 155 Scenars as well.

I'd be first in line for .277 Scenars.

have shot sierra matchkings in .224, and .243. They are extremely accurate, but do not open up on coyotes or deer. Have had 3 deer shot with a .222 with match kings that had very small exit holes on the off side, one through the shoulder. Same on coyotes. I fixed this by simply going to the 55 gr. gkhp. Still good accuracy, and they open up like a hollow point would be expected to. have talked to guys that had the same experience with 30 cal match kings on game.

I didn't look back through the whole thread, but anyone have results on big game with 6.5 123's??

Thanks.

I have shot a fair amount of game, pigs and deer, with .224 and .308 matchkings from my competition rifles.. its what I had at hand. Have yet to loose anything. Or see any issues that would make me not use matchkings. Some perform better than others at times, but thats the case with every shot you make. The only "perfect" bullet performance I've seen over the years has been Barnes.

smokepole,

In a few weeks my .257SLR will become a 6.5SLR. I have 200 of them waiting to be fired at an expected 3,400 feet per second. I will let you know if no one else does.

Thanks Ringman. They shoot well in all my 6.5's, hopefully the same in yours but there's not a lot of information on game out there.

How long is the barrel going to be?

Taking the 123s for lope this weekend. Fyi

Please post your results. Loving the 123 Scenars for accuracy in my 6.5CM, planning on trying some on deer later this year.

David

Hoping you'll do likewise.

Willl do.

David

No problem, assuming I don't miss!

They weren't shabby in my '06 Tikker. Love the 108's in my Faux 260 and wished like hell is was twisted 1:8 and AI'd for 139's.

Nice groups. What kind of speed are you getting with 56g H4350. My 1st gen Ti likes 62g. It's warm and clocks just over 3k but it shoots well.

Bb

It's a powder puff at 2,800. Sub 308 Win'ish...

Update: I shot an antelope with the 123 Scenars. 300 yards = bang flop. Will update with photos later.

Cool, I've been waiting for this.

Bullet was sinister...

Same story with my Dall ram last summer!

Entrance pic. Antelope was slightly quartering to me. Bullet went in, and broke ribs. Then veered left, traveled the whole length of the antelope and came out his hind quarter.



He lifted his head up, so I shot him again. (didn't need to, but force of habit.) I hit him in the neck. Bullet exited the neck and made three holes. One main hole a little larger than a quarter, and two smaller holes from shrapnel.



Tikka...

Not a lot of bloodshot meat there.

Finiphucked.....

Very nice DC!! Congrats.

Another 123 Scenar victim. Quartering away at 100 yds.

Assuming it exited, what was the size of the exit wound? I hope to do the same this weekend.

Looks to be a little larger than your scope objective?

It did exit, but you cannot see it in the pic. A habit of my archery days is to aim for the shoulder on the opposite side. Didn't take any pics, but it did mess up the shoulder meat. Hardly any sign of an entrance, they go in a few inches and blow up I believe.

She dropped so fast that I thought I missed, even though I heard the blap.

Those Scenars seem like they're working well. Dogcatcher, great photos!

thanks, deer tag in another week or so. Might get bull tag too.

I just ordered 1000 308 155 Scenars. Looking forward to cranking them out of my 300 WSM's, one of which will push 150's faster than a speeding bullet.

That pretty much describes the 90 grain(243) mule deer I got last year.

Dropped like a ton of bricks. Found some fragments, lost shoulder meat.

Good read in this thread.

I hope you enjoy.

Golden Oldie.....

167’s anyone?

And still quite pertinent. I really enjoy the use of the 155's in my 308's & 300 WSM's.

Yes, there is some great information here.