Just got back from guiding a 10-day sheep hunt. The hunter had just gone through the Best of the West shooting school and had bought one of their rifles. He said he was confidant out to 500 yards but when he checked his zero, he wasn't even on paper. I thought it would be pretty simple to adjust the scope but it didnt work out that way. He didnt know, and I couldnt figure out how to adjust the thing other than to raise it for different yardages. By cranking it up to 450 yards he finally got it on paper although it was still 18 inches low at 100. He didnt have enough ammo to continue so ended up borrowing a rifle. He wasn't what I would call a happy customer. I've been guiding for 30 plus years now and Ive never seen a rifle off so much, nor one so hard to adjust in the field. Is it even possible?? Not sure why he thought he needed to shoot into the next territory as we wouldnt let anyone shoot at unwounded game past about 300 anyway, as the mountain winds are just to fickle. Would like to know if it is possible to adjust these scopes out in the bush in case I run into it again in the future. Thanks

Once you get it zeroed,unscrew the screw on top of the turret and pull turret off and rotate to zero and set it back down. Do not over tighten screw.

Well, I gotta ask - did he get a sheep with a loaner rifle?

Nope he passed on a 36 inch ram on day one and never got another chance. We were hunting right next to the new Nahanni National Park and extreme winds kept the sheep on the park side of the range.

Was the rifle supposedly sighted in before he got there? Sounds like the turret got turned a revolution one direction of the other to be off by that much.

well that answer`s my question I will stay with Nightforce now for sure and my rifles too.

What was your question? I may be assuming something here, but, I assume you could plug any name brand into that story with the same outcome.

Sound to me like It's simply a story of a guy unfamiliar with his equipment.

Scope wasn't the problem. Hunter was. Or person posing as a hunter.

No it was defiantly a scope issue. Personally I cant imagine going anywhere let alone on an expensive hunt without a good set of iron sights on my rifle, but thats just me. Most rifle scopes are easy to adjust in the field but the Huskemaw seemed a bit different. Maybe it was damaged on the trip up, but it looked ok.

Either the scope was bad,or neither of you could adjust a scope or shoot.

It was the hunter as sidepass stated, he didn't know his own gear.

Yukon, serious question. Have you guided anyone in the last 15 years for sheep with iron sights?

I've never seen a bolt action rifle that I couldn't get on paper by pulling the bolt. and adjusting the scope to the center of my view through the bore at something 100 yards away. I haven't done it with a Huskemaw. But it should get you within 6" without firing a shot.

I'll bet that scope got jacked in transport. I have not seen anything too bad about those scopes. This is the number one reason to always have two rifles. ANY scope can fail at the most critical minute.

Yes actually I have. Not as their primary sighting system but they were on the rifle. I remember when every rifle came with irons.

Hogwild7 You are correct, and I have done the same thing before, the problem was the Huskemaw doesn't work like a normal scope that I could tell. The turrets move the point of impact for windage and elevation at longer distances, but that only works if it is zeroed first. In his case the gun was supposed to be dead on at 200, but it wasn't even close. Obviously there must be a way to adjust them but I didnt know how.

Gear-queers flock to these scopes like democrats flock to promises of free stuff.

I have seen a handful of them and so far I am not overly impressed. Widgets and Gizmos. Yet another company promising you that for XXX $$$ they will sell you better marksmanship.

But what many people seem to miss is the fact (which is a FACT, not an opinion) that no scope will make you hold a rifle steadier.

If you can hold for drift and elevation you can hold for it. If you can't, spending a lot of money on a fancy looking scope doesn't make it any better or easier. 2 things you need for long shots is #1 Skill and #2 knowledge of your drifts and drops. Scopes can be made to let you see a grid for those things, but they don't hold it for you, and holding X many inches up or over is no harder to do with a plane scope then it is with a scope full of grid-patterns.

When I take hunters out I am always a lot more confident in them if they show up with a Waver K4 or some simple scope (or even irons sights) on a worn rifle then those that shot with with the "latest-greatest gear".

Can rifles shoot well with those scopes on them? Sure.

Can they shoot well with K4s on them? Sure.

Can they shoot well with iron sights? Sure.

No sight shoots!
A rifle shoots, and it cannot be made to shoot better then the man or woman holding it.

American marketing is tried and true and has shown that offering something as "new and improved" sell products, even if it's not improved at all. And even if it's not really new.

In the story the OP told us it sure sounds like a man showed up with a scope on a rifle he had very little of no experience with. Either he didn't know how it works, or it was defective (many or most Chinese scopes are) Huskemaw is a brand that is said to me "made" in Wyoming, but I have heard from a number of people it's really Chinese. Others say it's assembled in Wyoming with 100% Chinese parts.

I don't really know myself.
What I do know if that I have heard complaints and that most folks say it's a gimmick. Is it? That depends on how it's used I suppose.

But if it is not 100% reliable under all conditions and also impervious to hard knocks and rough handling, I would say it's not something I personally would spend money on. And they do cost a lot of money.

I shoot long range for fun these days, but I refuse to shoot over 550 yards (about 500 meters) at game. Just my own convictions, but I believe doing so is only working against us as gun owners and hunters, and gives "ammo" to the anti-hunting crowd. Also, there is never a reason to do it on an unwounded game animal. I speak from experience. I started hunting deer before it was even legal, and got my own licenses from my first legal year. I have over 50 years of hunting behind me now in many states and in 5 countries.

I have killed a pretty good number of game animals at 600-900 yards in my life, but I "grew up" and stopped doing it about 25 years ago. I realized I was not doing anything that I needed to do, and that I could always get within 500 yards of game. In fact, since I made myself that promise, I have not even had an opportunity to shoot past 500 yards so I have not had to 'keep my self-made-promise" in all those years.

I don't condemn those that do it because I did too, but I do try to get them to think about what they are actually trying to do. In every case so far, what they are trying to do is to impress themselves and others as the #1 goal and #2 is trying to kill game and fill a freezer.

Is that bad?
Only if you wound an animal and don't bag it. (which does happen a lot more with long shot then normal ones) some can honestly say they have shot over 600 yards "X number of times" and never wounded an animal and lost it. I am one of them. But I decided to quite while I was ahead.

Learning to shoot long range is a valuable skill in combat. So I am ALL FOR men and women learning how. But 1st shot from a cold bore on a milk jug at an unknown distance pst 600 and ot to lets say 1500 yards is FAR more impressive to me then killing a deer or elk out there. Shooting steel and milk jugs shows me skill and dedication, but also shows me that these people don't treat game as an enemy to be destroyed. It shows me someone who thinks about the big picture.

This doesn't make me right and others wrong. But I do think it's a point worth consideration.


Anyway............. I believe a hunter who showed up in your camp with an old well used rifle with a K4 on it would have been just fine and had a happy successful hunt. When I did all my long shots I always used a Redfield 3X-9X, a Leupold 4X, and a Weaver K4 scope. ALL my kills over 600 yards were done with rifles with those 3 scopes on them and I never had any problem with them, never needed 2 shots, and never lost a deer or antelope. I have never had a shot at an elk in my live over 400 yards because I have never seen an elk father that I didn't easily close the distance to within 400 yards. All the game in my 54 years of hunting that were over 600 yards away have been deer and antelope, with the only excepting being my 1st moose.

Rambling now.......
Time to shut up.

They are made by LOW, in Japan, and are high quality optics. But like any tool, they are only as good as the tool behind the tool.

Agree with this completely. I've had a number of clients over the years that have been through long range shooting schools, and they soon find out that taking a longish shot in the field is much different....longish being 300 yards or so. I personally dont know of any guides that are going to let you take a 5-600 yard shot anyway, so all the gizmos are a waste anyway. After seeing his custom rifle I just cant imagine packing that thing all day in sheep country. My personal favourite is a Ruger compact 338 RCM with a 2.5 power leopold, its short, weighs only 7 pounds loaded, and is good to 350 even with the iron sights.

Huskemaws adjust just like any other scope. it doesn’t matter that the turret is marked in yardages, the clicks are still 1/3 Moa each. Also the gun was shooting low so you can initially ignore the zero stop for your problem. Dial it to zero at 200 (those turrets are made for 200yd zeros) loosen the center screw on the turret and lift it free of the gears, put it back down on the 2 mark and reinsert the lock screw.

Still weird that it was that far off unless it totally shït the bed or as mentioned above the turret was left a whole revolution out which would be 20 moa high at 200yds.

szihn says,



That's a silly statement. Anti are illogical and don't need "ammo".



How do you know this? I bet you if you could discover the truth you would find you are way wrong.



I would also bet the folks here really don't care if you are impress with their shooting or not.



Now we're impress!

I've used guides about half dozen times. Never had one yip about range or muzzle brakes.

That might be true in the lower 48, but you would be hard pressed to find a guide in the north that would allow you to take a super long shot. Not even sure why you would want to, in over 30-years I've never missed a chance at an animal because of distance. Average distance over those years has been under 200 and I guided sheep exclusively for 5 years. I've got no problem with guys doing it on their own at all if they are capable but wouldnt take the chance when its an expensive hunt and I will be the one looking for a wounded animal for days if things go south. In my experience the vast majority of hunters shouldn't be shooting past 250 let alone 500.

As a guide,(ex guide now) and knowing a lot of other guides, past and present, we often compare notes and come to generalities we agree upon.

"Yip about muzzle breaks or range."

We need to define "yip"

As a guide I cannot stop anyone from firing at game if they insist. What I can do and I have done is to let them know if they miss or wound an animal that I tell them not to fire at, my job ended at the shot. If they wound the animal I will do all I can to help recover the game, but if I don't (so far I have been lucky and have recovered them all) I am not taking them out the next day. It's over when we are done with that animal.

If they wound I often have allowed the hunt to go on, but that is if they have not defied my instructions. If I can get a man a lot closer and he decides to show off and fire, I am OK with it, as long as he kills clean, but if he doesn't the hunt is over as soon as I am done with that animal.

If I were to try to track it down and was unsuccessful the hunt is over.

If I do track it down and it's killed, the hunt is over.

If the kill is quick and easy, the hunt is over.

But the next hunt the next year is going to be with some other guide.

See, my job is to not just show game to the hunter, but get them into a place where they have a very high chance of bagging an animal. If the hunter refused my skills, knowledge and my advice he is not under my command. I know that. But the opposite is true too. He pays the bill so he's the boss, but if a boss refuses to allow an employee to do the job, the employee can always quit. If the boss wants the employee to break the law or help "bend it" by allowing waist of game, quitting the job is not only reasonable, but should be expected.

If I can easily get a hunter from 800 yards to 400 yards, or even 150 yards or 75 yards , and he were to refuse to let me do it, I feel no obligation to do anything more for him.

Anyone out there think that's unreasonable?


Now most of this is theoretical. So far I have not had any clients lock horns with me on these issues. And I speak form about 1/2 a century of experience. IT IS SOMETHING I DISCUSS WITH THEM before the hunt, so we are all on the same sheet of music.

And most hunters are fun loving, reasonable men who want to take advantage of all the services I can provide to them.

But that is not to say there are not some fools out there. My cousin Clint is also a full service outfitter, and he has told me of 4 clients he's had that wanted to fight him at every turn. He did exactly what I would have done. Let them do as they see fit -----and let them handle the consequences by themselves too.

An animal that is hit and not recovered is always interesting to the wardens and if they find that animal with the dogs, that hunter is done with his hunt. Clint has told me of that happening 1 time here in Wyoming, once in Montana and 2 times in Arizona.

So Ringman may be correct in saying guides don't "yip".

I don't. But that's because most hunters are not fools.

I just want the hunter to understand I am there to help him get an animal, but not to chase unreasonably wounded game and then allow for another chance on another day. There is no reason to fire from X range if I can put he hunter to 1/2 or 1/4 of that range.

And Ringman, you'd be 100% wrong in saying that longer shots are not missed more then closer ones. I do know the truth of the matter. How did you come to a different conclusion?

If I am wrongs then go out with a friend and let him place 4 10" targets at unknown ranges of 300 yards and less, and them place 4 more at unknown ranges or 600 yards and more---- and see if your average is better (or even the same) at the longer shots, and then see if you can find 10 hunters, selected out of the crowd randomly, to do the same test that disapprove me.

Do you actually believe that their all going to do as well at longer range as they do at close to mid range?
If so, how did you come to that conclusion?

Yes Ringman, we that have guided over several decades DO talk about these things.

Now nothing I have said here is meant to be an affront. You say in your profile you like to study and discuss the Bible. "Be at peace with all men as much as is possible." I say nothing here that is not based in many many many years of experience and truth. If you take offense, please think, and examine why you are offended. It not because of the truth. It would only be because you don't like the truth.
I expect if there is offense it's simply a case of cognitive dissonance.

But all I am doing here is reporting what I know, what I have seen and learned since I started hunting back in the 60s. Between hunting and guiding hunters I personally have been doing this since 1964. So my conclusions are not arbitrary.
_________________

lastly:

"Yip" about muzzle brakes?

I don't know why that was inserted here, because it had no context within the thread, but speaking for myself alone, I don't care one way or another.
I plug my ears with my fingers if I am close by anyway. If I am looking through binoculars I just get behind the hunter, so I have not found brakes to be a big deal in most cases. And I am ALL FOR THEM is they help the hunter shoot better. Less kick is often a help, so I think of them as a tool that some use and some don't. Some outfitters hate them but personally I think it's a bit unreasonable to whine about them. I tell them to keep plugs in their pockets. If it's a snap shot and the shot rings the ears of the guide, well I know it's unpleasant, but lets fate the truth here. It's part of the job. Like having to muck out stall if you love horses. It's just part of the package. (My opinion anyway)

For practice, when many rounds are fired I insist on wearing hearing hearing protection, so again I don't mind them. If the hunter wants to damage his own ears, it's OK as long as I don't have to.
My hearing is bad enough now from "close encounters of the worst kind" in my USMC and DOD days. I don't need to harm them more. But I can plug my ears with my thumbs when holding binos, and I do if I need to. No big deal.

I'm a wanna be. The longest kill for me on game is 410 yards. The longest rock chuck is 527.

You are talking about experienced shooters. I am including every Tom, Dick, and Harry who buys a .30-06 or .308 and heads to the woods or fields.




See above.



No offence was meant or taken.



I included the brake statement because usually when someone tells us about guiding they tell us they would not have a client who has a brake.

szihn, you are freaking awesome. And tell a mean story.

Haha god damn I guess!!!

Up here its a bit different. It is made clear right from the beginning that a hunter never, under any circumstances shoots until he is told to do so. To many bad things can happen. The animal might not be legal, think sheep, goats, and bears; or there could be another animal behind your intended target. Like szihn said most hunters are real good guys and there is very seldom any problems at all, but if a guy decides he doesn't need to listen, we just go back to camp and call the plane, ending the hunt. The areas we hunt are just to remote to take chances with some fool getting hurt or hurting someone else. Gun safety is a big issue with us, you are expected to know how to handle a rifle before you get here, we're not instructors. The fastest way to end your hunt is to forget about muzzle control. I dont know of one outfitter that will give you a second chance.

In 33 years of doing this full time there is maybe 5 guys I wouldnt want back, but I've never had to send anyone home. When an animal is wounded the wardens up here dont come into the picture. The law says you must make a reasonable "effort", and of course we do that and then some, but if we find blood or see the bullet or arrow strike, your hunt is over period. Last fall I had a bowhunter wound a moose on day one, we spent the rest of the hunt looking for that bull, unfortunately to no avail.

Personally I wouldnt own a rifle I needed a brake on, and Im the first to admit I dont like recoil. Anything over 338 is to much for me. That being said I've guided a lot of hunters that had them, and Im sure some of my hearing loss is because of them but thats part of the deal I guess. szihn said a mouthful when he said he likes to see a hunter with a well worn rifle show up. Im betting there its one guide on the planet that would argue with that. Those guys are almost always great shots, and you can be sure they are not overgunned like so many are today. A First Nation friend of mine likes to say " if you cant kill it with a 30/06 you better hide."

yukon254,

There's more to the enjoying the hunt than killing with a .30-06. I make wildcats and want to play with one. Even my light caliber rifles have brakes 'cause I like seeing the bullet impact.

so lets see the guy went to the shooting school and you have been a hunting guide for 30 years? and you guys can't figure out how to adjust a rifle scope? the huskemaw adjusts exactly the same as any other scope. its called turrets you move them. sounds like the blind leading the blind. I recently did a review on the one I have.

Your video won't load so cant see the video. It wasn't my rifle so I didnt want to mess with it, but his certainly didnt adjust "exactly" the same as other scopes. He could move the point of impact up and down or sideways by using the turrets, just like he was taught to do shooting at distance in a wind, but that still didnt fix the problem. On a normal scope I could have had it fixed in 2 minutes as long as the scope wasn't damaged.

No I've been a guide for 33 years, not 30, and I can assure you I have more time in the bush around hunting and rifles than anyone you know. I havent been around long range rigs because we see few of them up here, and until this last hunt I had never seen a Huskemaw scope up close before, so I certainly didnt want to start messing with it. The hunter assured me he wasn't taught how to reset the scope at the school, whether thats true or not I have no idea. What I am sure of is that he didnt have a sheep rifle. The rifle he ended up borrowing was a Tikka T3 lite in 300WSM, with a 3x9 L scope zeroed at 200. That rifle has been bounced around the bush for a decade now and has even made several trips to Africa, and it still shoots into one hole if the shooter is able. It weighs in at just over 7pounds loaded making it a dream to carry, and cost a fraction of his custom rig.

Ringman nothing wrong with wildcats or breaks. I like oddball stuff myself. Just picked up a Ruger 338 RCM about a year back to replace my old 338 Federal, and so far I love it, but think necking it up to 35 would be really interesting!

Well, I'll be damned.....What a concept.

If you read my OP you would have known that from the beginning...but it still didnt fix the problem.

Yeah, If he went through a school. He must have slept through it.

I read it. Having more ammo still wouldn't have 'fixed' the ignorance problem.

I have watched some of their shooting school clips no TV. I would just about guarantee that he was taught how to work the scope. Sounds to me like the guy was an idiot that never absorbed what they told him.

Fellas, this just seems like flawed logic, in my opinion.

Matter of fact, I'd go the other way - I'd question the shooting ability, common sense and seriousness of a hunter who showed up on a 10 day sheep hunt with a sub $200 scope.

I'm a member of a shooting club where there's some serious shooters (and hunters too) who are very proficient with their equipment, they are great shots on live game and none of 'em are rockin' a $135 Weaver K4.

You will, however, find some Huskemaw Blue Diamonds on the line.

"Like!"

ok here you go give it a shot this time.

This is exactly the reason I'm not a fan of the "Out of the box" 1000 yard guns. It's actually not the gun but who it's marketed towards is my real problem. Most of the guns are beyond capable of shooting that far.
Obviously this guy knew nothing about shooting or his setup. He eve paid for a school and couldn't even figure out how to adjust his scope! He knows nothing about long range shooting but buys a rifle setup for it. It is possible the scope was damaged in transport but it seems he still didn't even know how to adjust it back on target. Also was his turret setup for your elevation or for his home range? I'm sure he had no clue either!

I am of the same mind as Hogwild 7
I would bore sight the rifle visually through the bore axis. With the target image centered in the bore adjust the scope sight to center of cross hairs. If you cant get the scope to fine tune the bore sight at 100 yards you need a new scope..

20MOA/revolution of the elevation dial, 18" low @ 100yds = hunter was 1 full spin under zero. That should've been a 30 second fix.

I wasn't at the shooting school, never been to any shooting school, and I obviously wasn't on the hunt, but, I can just about bet that the last shots at the shooting school were at long range. At the end the instructor said something to the effect of, "Make sure you return your turret to zero", at which point the student couldn't remember how many spins he'd gone up and went down 1 extra. Then, he put the rifle away "so he didn't screw anything up" and didn't shoot it or attempt to verify zero again until he got into your camp.

To my knowledge there is not, and never has been a variable or gain-threaded erector assembly in any rifle scope. The closest would've been the old Realist/Leatherwood cams, but, those worked in conjunction with the base and moved the whole scope on the outside.

Once on paper, a realistic next step would've been to take 4 more clicks up and see where the bullet hit. When you saw that it moved the bullet ~1", you could've easily deduced how many "clicks" to a 100 or 200yd zero.

As I read through this entire thread, what I got out of this is that the OP was all too happy to throttle back his client and have him use a rifle which allowed the guide to "call the shots". In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that this happens intentionally in some camps. Guy shows up with new "whiz-bang" rifle/scope and gets to droning on about how far he can shoot it. While he's not looking, someone adds or subtracts a spin on the elevation or windage, owner doesn't have the understanding how to get it back on paper, guide/outfitter plays dumb and they've now got the guy over a barrel shooting a borrowed rifle and only taking shots they want him to take. I'm not saying that's what happened here, I'm saying it wouldn't surprise me if it happened anywhere given the volume of uninformed, undereducated, under-experienced and over-confident clients that guides are subjected to.

bingo......

Close brother but 4 clicks should have been 1 1/3” as Huskemaw uses 1/3 moa clicks last I knew. My questions is if the guy went through the school why they didn’t have them set the zero stop after zeroing. Always nice to have a zero stop on serious long range rigs as you always know within 3 seconds that your sitting on zero.

I got that the clicks are .333MOA and that 4 Of them would be 1.333” @ 100yds. That’s what I used the “~” symbol. Of course you’re assuming that the camp has some sort of solid enough bench and rest arrangement and a shooter competent/capable enough to tell the difference between 1” and 1.333”.

I was suggesting that the guide and client who couldn’t figure out the scope’s adjustments might make a fairly universal 4 clicks up, recognize approximately an inch of POI shift then make the adjustment that would get them pretty close. In the process, they might even figure out as they got close to getting to “0” the second time what went wrong.

No argument from me regarding the usefulness of a zero-stop.

actually the clicks on my huskemaw are 1/10th mil, funny they are marked .36/per click and 1/3rd moa, umm its not the same. but the scope is 1/10 mil I know that and its all I care about. some of their other models may be different.

In this thread I have heard the term "known distance" and "long distance" used quite a bit. IMHO judging distance accurately is a major part of being a competent shooter and one of the most difficult parts. I can get hits on a human sized target w/ iron sights on a clear day with good contrasting background using the parts of the target I can discern as a rough guide, face arms etc. Hits somewhere on a human sized target, not very precise and not adequate for shooting game at 400 yards. Walk a 12" square white target out past 200 yards and get 6 shooters to give you an eyeballed guesstimate on range and you will get 6 different estimates, few will be w/in 25 yards.

I learned to use a mildot scope w/ a mildot magic calculator and it helped but I didn't use it enough to retain capability while hunting. Then I bought my 1st LRF and became a better shot. Using holdovers only works if you know the range. Having a reticle that allows you to know your POI at the actual range of your target is a gamechanger.

Then the wind blows


mike r

The affordably priced and ever smaller LRF has fueled an expansion of the firearms and optics market that is likely only rivaled by the invention of the cartridge case. Minus the LRF I'd likely not own at least 6 rifle/scope packages I currently shoot/hunt regularly. There's 25+ scopes I wouldn't have added elevation turrets to as well. The list of things I've bought as a direct result of owning an LRF gets quite long, and I'm not the only one.

everyone is going to be using a LRF for anything that is even questionable range. although almost always not long range I over range coyotes that are responding to my calls, just to make sure they are inside 300 yards so I don't need any hold over.

Words of wisdom. Agree that much of long range is to impress rather than of necessity.

There's a vast difference betwixt hunters....and shooters!!