I've been bombed with Emails,PM's and phone calls from guys that are goin' turret crazy all of the sudden. As my typed words are of even less use than my verbal communications,I thought it prudent to Post a coupla pictures that might help those that I managed to confuse.

I just hope my text doesn't muddle the pictures!



OK,in this picture is a Leupold "regular" turret. The type that wears a cover if you should want it and I generally do. So this is the way your rifle sets after you have it on paper at your preferred "normal'' zero range. On this particular rifle I like it sighted in and zeroed at 250yds. The bullet must strike +2.3" high at 100yds to yield that desired result. After that confirmation,I loosen up the three hex head screws that affix the micrometer head to the internal elevation spindle. I align the "0" reference number,with the vertical index indicator at the base of the turret assembly and retighten the set screws.

So in this configuration,I have a "regular" rifle sighted in a regular manner,the turret is just a bump on top of the scope and from my muzzle to the 250yd line I needn't give it a thought.

Savvy?



OK,now here is the turret moved in the upwards direction and it will shift impact from my pre-established zero. It is at the 3MOA setting,which is 12 seperate .25MOA graduations from my zeroed starting point. The U- indicator at the top tells me that counter clockwise increases elevation and the opposite reduces it.

With just that subtle amount of elevation increase,my rifle's zero has now changed from the 250yd line,to the 375yd line. So at that predetermined distance(as this ain't a guessin' game),I can paste my crosshairs dead on the target and that is where that bullet will impact.

After the shot,I return the scope to "0" and I'm back to my predetermined 250yd preference.



In this picture,the crosshairs have moved even farther upwards in elevation travel. The reflection from the flash obscures the whole minute designation mark,but this is a 7.5MOA poke. That is 7 whole minutes and two .25 "clicks".

The micrometer head is marked well and easily read. It starts at "0" goes to "3","6","9","12" and 15 ='s a complete revolution back to "0". Between those numbers are hash lines,designating the whole minute values(the longest of the hash marks). The mid lengthed hash marks are .50MOA designators and the tiny ones are .25MOA graduations. With about 7 seconds practice,it becomes very easy to cypher(even for me).

So with 7.5MOA up in the glass,this rifle is now dead on at the 525yd line. I make that shot,return the glass back down to "0" and I'm back to my favorite 250yd zero for this particular rifle.

Now to find the info to feed your scope,you gotta know a coupla things. The bullet's speed,BC,sight height and atmosphere. That will yield a trajectory drop chart that will likely yield an amazingly close ballistic profile.

From there,one must ascertain that generated data and the rifle/scope combo are in perfect harmony. That is yielded by shooting at a known(confirmed) distance and comparing generated findings to actual findings and fine tuning the data. All very easy.

This game is won and lost with range determination and an accurate/repeateable scope(they call 'em Leupolds). The laser is the measuring device and the 1200LRF Leica is THE machine for po' folks like me.



So here is a trajectory data reference chart,as spewed from my PACT Ballistic Computer.

I sorta screwed up,as this printout is not in sync with the above trajectory curve,though the principles are precisely the same. This is for a different rifle and I'm guessin' you know which one,from the El Marko credits atop the ribbon.

Anyhow,we'll use this for reference and at least it uses the same 250yd zero,one which I find useful for a bunch of different chamberings.

So let's say we've done the 100yd thing(sighted +2.0") at that distance and we've confirmed that we are on the money at the 250yd line. We now loosen the set screws an index the turret's head,to correspond with our "0" designation.

No we wanna see EXACTLY what it takes to get further downrange. To start,you divide the trajectory drop in inches,by the distance of the shot which is in yards.

So let's jump right to 450yds as a curiousity. To find the MOA info you need to feed the scope,you divide the drop (20") by range in yds and I designate yardage in decimal configuration. A 50 yard shot is divided by .50. A 125 yard shot is divided by 1.25. a 500 yard shot is 5.00. An 875 yard shot is 8.75. That decimal will yield a factor that we can use to round up to the nearest .25MOA "click" adjustment in the scope. Savvy?

Soooooo...20" divided by 4.50 yields 4.44MOA. Well we haven't the graduations required to dial that elevation in as the scope is graduated in 1/4MOA "clicks". BUT,we can round to 4.50MOA. that is 4 whole numbers and 2 "clicks" of .25 per each.

Now as a curiousity,let's see how much precision we "lost" by rounding up to the nearest 1/4MOA graduation our scope allows us. Simply multiply 4.50(range in yards) x 4.50MOA(our nearest rounded adjustment graduation) ='s 20.25". The correction we dialed deviated but 1/4" from perfection,in a perfect world.

A 1/4" "click" at 100yds shifts impact 1/4". That adjustment at 200yds,shifts impact by 1/2". At 1000yds that 1/4" "click" is now moving impact 2-1/2" per "click". Savvy?

Some would think that because it is a 1/4" "click" scope,you'd have the graduations to negate that 1/4" difference between the actual 20" drop chart figure and the 20.25" correction we rounded up to,but the ''clicks" grow in size as range is extended. That is why I like toss that decimal in there and round to the nearest .25MOA graduation,because that is the finest adjustment I can mechanically make at ANY distance.

Soooooo....let's crack somethin' at 850yds. That is the drop in inches (152.1") divided by 8.50 and that yields 17.89MOA. My preference is to round up and the next 1/4 minute graduation mechanically available is at 18MOA. So that is one complete turret upward revolution(15MOA per revolution) and 3 more whole minutes. Whammo,make the shot,crank down to zero and you are back at 250yds.

See howww easy it is?.........................

Stick,

Post a pic of the "Cheat Sheet" that is taped on the stock that shows MOA values at the various ranges or someone will think you need a pocket calculator and ballistic printout to figure how much "up" to click in.

I discussed a drop chart but didn't illustrate it. There are lotsa deviations on the theme,but this is how I like mine oriented.



My preference is to have them on the port side of the buttstock and running perpendicular to the stock. That way it is easy to glance at from any position and confirm a reading. I generally use a 10MPH wind factor,to keep abreast of that situation. If it's blowing 25mph it's easy to multiply by 2.5 to get the 25mph value.

Reading and doping the wind is more MOJO and Black Magic than Physics......................

Good post Stick. You explained yourself rather well! I don't especially like the looks of a tall turret on top of my scope but I can sure see it's benefits. I'll have to ponder some on this.

HogWild

The Cheat Sheet/Drop Chart illustration ties it all together and makes/made perfect sense to me.

Laser a buck @ 400yds- glance at stock- go up 4 MOA-paste crosshairs dead center-squeeze trigger-punch tag...

Makes sense to me.

That was well done and solves another head scratching, befuddlement of mine. Much appreciated. I have been curious though I used reticle bracketing and hold over. Maybe one day, if you ever buy another Ruger 77 MK II, you might, also, discuss how to stone the trigger and post photos for those of us who are mechanically challenged. Then again, there could be liability ramifications with that so I would understand. Do you use the Heavy Duplex or 4A? I assume you do not because of the distances that you shoot.

Awesome stuff. Thanks for posting it.

My main problem here is that the ONLY range within 1.5 hours driving time only goes to 200 yds. so I can't perform the actual verification.

Can you clarify one point? Do you prefer to send a scope back to Leupold for installation as opposed to Premier?

Thanks.

I touched on it upon another Thread(forget which one),but my preference is for Leupold to do my work. That because they are both the Manufacturer and are a repair facility,which Premiere is not. That's not cussing Premiere,but I like to have the scopes innards checked while it is in the "shop".

Leupold does that(gratis) and will install the turret all within a very short timeframe. The turret is $53.

I'm very happy with a standard duplex reticle in all applications..............

Thanks Stick, appreciate it.

Stick

Many thanks!

Delbert

Big Stick,
Newbie here. Very first post, gotta start somewhere. I have been using the same system as you for just over a year and it seems to work very well. There will always be some changes in the very upper end of the chart with temp/press etc but for the most part it is very reliable. When I get my drop chart just the way I want it, a best fit average from real world groups, I am thinking of purchasing one of these little jewels:

Kenton Industries Tuned Trajectory Compensator

I am not quite settled for a drop chart as I haven't made a final decision between 3 fairly good loads.

Shummy

Shummy,

I see alotta guys like the Kenton,especially on the M3's.

There is another doohickey that resembles another turret that has a drop chart you can pull out of it,sorta like a tape measure. You can mark your dope upon it and affix the assembly upon your scope's tube. You've likely seen it,though the manufacturer escapes the tip of my tongue this very second.

I like the stock deal,as that is what I am accustomed to and it is easy to swap out,should the mood strike. As long as a guy has good dope secured in some fashion,he is in very good shape. Preferences will vary,but the end result will largely be the same..............

The only turreted rifle I've shot was Flinch's 25-284. I really like the way he handled it. He wrapped the top portion of the elevation turret with masking tape and drew lines corresponding to different distances. That way you lazer the yardage, turn the turret to that number and BANG. Seemed pretty slick. BTW, the lines were oriented so that they meshed with the marks on the turret. I guess this is another option to a 'cheat sheet'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Pointer, I hadn't thought of that.
I find two more handy things about turrets. One, they make rezeroing for a shorter range nice too. Why do that ? To eliminate that plus 2-3 inches for a precise shot, like a small critter, or hole in cover. Two, they are handy for switching ammo.
I don't have the windage turret installed on my hunting rifles. Long Range hunting/target rifles yes. But I find the single elevation turret is sufficent for anything I'll do under say 500-600 yds. E

Hey, Flinch must of added that to his scope since I last shot them. I like that idea. I've used Big Stick's cheat sheet method as well, but I had the advantage of him coaching me at the time, it was bad news for the bear. Let's just say those turrets really work and I'm a confirmed believer. Now what I really want to know is how Big Stick got those custom "rust" blued rings? Izzat part of the camoflague scheme? Looks like a real art and science <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You mock my Custom SE thread locking compound? The nerve!

I even steelwooled the bastards a smidge before I took the pics and said ''hell with it" and admitted defeat.

Bad part is that's one of my "purty" ones(Lilja heavy barreled A2 in 7-08). 'Tis the price of playing in this park...............

Does the rust cost extra?

WB.

Everybody interested a little tip I like to use when just shooting for fun(not doping the wind, humidity, elevation....ect.). After establishing you rifle's zero at 100 yards, take a plain white sticky back label and wrap it around the turret and cover all those marks. Make a mark on the label at the vertical center line and above it write the #1, with a fine line marker. Next, zero you rifle at 150 yards and at the same vertical line on the turret make a mark and above it write #1.5. Continue to do this as far as you care to shoot. Then cover the label with a strip of clear packaging tape to make it water resistant. The next time you are out shooting and see a target at 350 yards spin the elevation to #3.5 and dope the wind and send a bullet down range. This tip has worked very well for me in the past. This is the same type of system I used on my Leupold Mark 4 M3, except that the turrets came from Leupold already marked for the round I was shooting.



***If anyone from Leupold is listening I wish you would make the turrets without any markings available for aftermarket purchas and I would make the marks myself.***(personal rant)

One other tip is for you range card. Take you holdovers/holdoffs and using double stick carpet tape stick it to the inside of you flip-up scope caps and cover it with clear packaging tape. Using the computer I shrink or inlarge the chart to fit inside the caps. You can not read it that close with you head on the stock but lifting you head back a little works for me.

These are just a guess since I don't have them handy right now.
Mine look something like this. 100 yards/10mph crosswind/20 mph crosswind.
You can substitute the number of clicks for windage instead of MOA as I have used.

100/0.5/1.0
150/1.5/3.0
200/3.5/7.0
250/7.0/14
and so on

For my hunting rifle, without turrets, I zero the rifle for my Max. point blank range and insert bullet drop in the chart instead of the 10 mph holdoff, and move the 10mph windage in place of the 20mph..
Just a tip for those interested

Darkside

Sky, I admit the "tactical tape" is a new thing on the scope. I get excited and can't count MOA's worth a crap when a critter is in the scope. Two years ago I turned the turret the wrong way and shot a buck in the leg at 400 yards. I now have masking tape with hash marks marked with the yardage above them. No more misses for me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

One more very quick and easy way to set up your turrets is to find a rock, target or other stationary (small) object and range it to the nearest whole number, ie. 300 yards, 400 yards, 500 yards etc. Do this after initial 200 or 250 yard zero. Shoot and walk the bullet to the target at 300 yards and make a note of the # of clicks or MOA to consistently hit the target at that range. Next, find a target at 400 yards and repeat. You get the idea. For me, this method shortens the guessing that takes place on computer ballistic programs, B.C.s, velocities, etc. You don't even need a chronograph or ballistic program to perform this. You set your scope for your current load and run with it. You will need a spotter to call your shots accurately though and a good rest. Then write your cheat sheet on your scope or stock. Mine use to look like the one below before I put the masking tape on my dial.

200 yards 0 clicks (zero)
300 yards 7 clicks (2.25 MOA)
400 yards 14 clicks (3.50 MOA)
500 yards 21 clicks (5.25 MOA)
600 yards 33 clicks (8.25 MOA) etc.

The neat thing with the above sheet is that it works exactly for my 7mm loads, .25-284 loads and my .22-250 loads. My .30-06 shoots slower, so I have a separate sheet for it. Flinch

Awesome post guys. Clears up a lot and 'splains it in little words guys like me can understand. Saving, printing, saving again, putting in the safe...
SD

I have learned so many things from you guys.

This thread is clearly one of the best. It has helped me understand

why so many proclaim the functional excellence of target turrets. Now I understand

why. Stick, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.

J_Scott

Very interesting. Makes a lot more sense now. Can you just buy one turret for elevation and leave the short windage knob as it is. Where do you buy the turret?

i believe thats the way most of the Paridise crews scopes are set up, just elevation turret.................yah have to send it in to leupy, IIRC the stated turn around time by the crew is about 2 weeks

I called Leupold yesterday, all of this is done directly with them. Example:

Purchase a VX-II 3-9x40 Duplex from them: $300
Add an M1 elevation turret: 100
or add M1 elevation and M1 windage: 130
Shipping to me: 15
Total cost is either: 415 or 445

Obviously, if you currently have a Leupold scope that you want to customize, send it to them with your work order and money.
Maybe others will chime in here, but I would call before you ship them anything to make sure that your model of scope is capable of being customized with the turrets of your choice
(target or M1) and to get a firm quote on total price.

Steelhead, posted a nice pic of a couple of Leupold's with the M1 turret setup.

J_Scott

J Scott,

Thanks for dredging up this old thread.

I've got this one saved in my favorites ... but it really should be a sticky post ...

It should be a sticky...

So that's how you use them.......

Ever seen somebody try to adjust their scope by loosening or tightening the covers? It do happen.

Might be the same fellas that claim the bullet rises in flight, as evidenced by the bullet being 2" high at 100.

Sticky Turrets?
Sounds like a weird medical condition or something
grin

I found this thread as a while back and after reading throughly and realizing just how simple the concept and use of turrets is I took the leap and sent my VX-III 3.5-10 off to Leupold and had them install an elevation turret on it. I was sitting there thinking after I read this thread a while back and thought, I use a rangefinder and I mark my drops on a card thats fixed to my stock but I am still guessing when I take long shots at game using the holdover method, why guess. The saying holding on hair not on air someone once said here made total sense. And so now I have a turret on my scope. The gun a 300WSM shoots so damn flat out to 300 yards with a 220 yard zero that I dont know if I will ever actually use it in teh field but if I do need to I will and I will know that the shot can be made. I just cant wait for teh weather up here to lift so i can head out and play with it. Was -44 degrees at my house this morning, not much chance of getting to the range anytime soon. Late winter in interior Alaska, UUGH!

I am looking forward to trying the turrets, myself...
I am taking a hard look at a VXIII 3-9X w/turrets.
I have never given them serious consideration until I joined the fire and started reading about it-now I am very interested in learning all I can about them.

Dang, all this time I've just been using them as handles to lap the rings. Who knew???

This is a great post...

I've often wondered whether having a turret installed would help my wife make shots a bit easier. She is a steady shot and can handle shooting out to 300 yards no problem with any rifle she has shot, and I usually just tell her exactly where to aim. I've wondered if having a turret installed would help her make shots a bit easier as I could just rangefind, then dial and have her aim at exactly where she wants to hit.

Is it worth installing a turret on a 7-08? I'm thinking I could have a lot of fun shooting coyotes in the winter with one....

Yes

Stick,
Big thanks for the clear way you took us through the steps.

Now the remaining challenge is to develop a load that shoots tight enough groups beyond 400 yards to use this info.

Amazing how easy it is to hit when you have a solid aiming point.

Okay.....I think I'll have to do this...now I just gotta find in the Leupold site the whole deal on these.....

Anyone have a direct link as I must be stupid today and cant find it in the site....

custom shop

But my adjustments are 1/4" so that wouldn't work for me. a 1/4" is a 1/4" no matter the yardage....




















grins

Paul and Steely,
So, you guys just send your scope in to Leupy's custom shop and have just the elevation turret installed?
Sounds pretty good, what is the cost and turn around like?

Roger

2 weeks from the time I drop it off at the PO.

I think prices just went up. I only have 2 with elevation turrets, the rest have both.

$100 ish for 2 target turrets, $60ish for 1, $140ish for M1's, $80ish for 1.

That don't sound bad...
Thanks for the info.

Just got two back with Targets. 104.99 both with 15 for shipping. 120 bucks and they is done in two weeks....

Should add that that was a Per each price. you can send them together but they send them back separate..

I wonder if they are sent seperate, will they come back together........

I don't suppose someone could post a pic of target turrets vs. M1's? Saw something about M2's...what the heck are those?

What's best for a huntin' rig?

J

Stand by.. pics coming............

Thanks Paul...
I assume you guys are mostly using 6X42 FXIIIs?

M1's

You guys are quick!!

I'll let Paul do the TT's........

Those M1s look nice...

The VERY first picture on this thread are TT's..

A true gentleman....you have any M2's? If not, what's the difference?

Slightly more "used" than your M1's pic.

M2's is 1/2 moa clicks. Last I knew Leupold was only retro fitting M1's and TT's to the standard line of scopes.

M1's



TT

I went back and forth a bunch between going with the M1 and the Target and ended up going with the target for fear of bumping the M1's while stalking something that I wouldn't be using the turrets for. Figured if I am taking a shot longer than 300 yards I have plenty of time to get into position and range, read, dial and shoot.I cant see unscrewing the turret cap being a crisis when I have time.

Any preference?
i.e. M1s over the TTs for example?

M1's don't "bump" that easy.......

Targets on a gun....

I dig M1's, but I also dig TT's........

I prefer the Targets. The M1's are great on the MK 4's but they don't feel positive enough for me when you have them put on a retrofit...

You're not positive enuff..............grin

I think i need to give the M1's another chance though. i'll probably put them on my next one....

Thanx guys...
I guess I gotta find a "donor" scope for these turrets
grin

Nope... i want to go shooting tomorrow. you game?

Donors are easy to find....grins

Let me finish the C&C and I'll get loading.................

I'll bring the PACT...

How bout 1pm'ish, the morning freaks should be gone...

Cool... i'm going to dig though and see if i have anymore WW 223 brass that i can load up to Fire Form...... I just want to play with the new press....

It's a plan... i'll bring the Ti and see what i'm doing with the 130's..

I want to go.... what do you think a last minute ticket from Portland would run me?

I'm gonna load up the 168 A-max's for the 06AI. How much and what powder you think, probably gonna do it by "feel"........

You like the rust on the ring of the 264? i think it adds to the overall look..

Bring a HOT willing chick and I'll cover plane fair. Hell, I'll give you a bucket of ammo, a few rifles, and my truck for the day. You and Paul have fun......

I'd stay away from 2400 and filling cases. other than that you should be cool...grins

Hell, the only time I notice rust anymore is when the bolt won't open......

You're gonna need to give me more than a day....and cover her airfare too.

Let me know when you get in. i'll pick you up from the airport....grins

I'll give you the weekend, but she stays with me. You can twist turrets till you develop carpal tunnel........

I'm sure something could be arranged if you brought a willing LEGAL female with you..

For steely of coarse......

So the M1's dont come with a cover, and the TT's come with a cover? The TT's look a bit higher than the M1's?

What are the chances of bumping the M1's in the field? Either one 'easier' to use for in field conditions, hunting only?

Thanks boys.

You're worrying to much, pick one and go.......

Hah.....okay okay...I'm a worrier...what can I say? LOL

You'd have to hit them pretty hard to bump the M1's and if you did the 0 should alway's be faceing you. if it's not then just spin it back. The targets are a little taller. I like Targets best but have hunted with both and will continue to do so. I've only one scope with M1's and about 1/2 dozen or so with Targets..

Don't help much, do it?

I'm mailing the 3.5-10x tomorrow, going M1's....

Cool. i need to pic up about a dozen scopes... i need to make more money...

Interested to see it when it gets in....

Haha nope.....guess I just gotta decide and get at it!

Yep, either way you'll be happy.. money well spent...

I think the next "order" will be for some scopes. At least I won't have to drive around the back of the PO to pick up that order.........grin

Need 2 more 6x42's and a 3.5-10x40.

Waiting to see how much I like the Target on my 3.5-10 before I ship another one off for turrets but I am a itchin.

I could use at least 2 6x42's for the kids guns and a dozen or so 3.5-10x40's for me....

Gimme your card number again, they'll be here by next Friday....

Dude, I'm losing my mind. I had an entire coffee can full of 30caliber X bullets, can't find it.

Hope I didn't drink the damn things...

TFF! you gona load some up for spring??? inquiring minds and all...

If I can find them. Found a old pin on Marbles compass, didn't know I had that, but no X bullets..

Check the freezer...grins

Found them!!!!!! They was under the kitchen sink, behind the trash can and next to an empty Pendleton bottle. I'm sure there was a good reason at the time....

So am i!

Am thinking that the 300WSM Montana with turrets oughta work real well on a nice Kodiak Billy this coming fall too! Come on September!

I'd use X's but to each his own....grin

Oh XXX's it'll be! Hope to see some of them dark horned blacktails fall too.

Steely, what weight of xbt's? Need any 180's, I've got 50 I'll never use?

J

165's don't need to go any bigger. Plus if the 180's shot well I would have to buy 500, and I ain't in the mood.......grin

The 168's will hump some chit up..... thinking you'll be very impressed.....

Hopefully 180's will too cuz thats what I am shooting..

They should work fine. the 168's is just more of a good thing.... i left 13 of them in africa...

Congrats ,dont remember seeing pics. I hope to leave a few on Kodiak myself.

It was last spring.. if you ask nice i'll post up a few in another thread.....

Well where they at dude?











please

Speaking of Turrets, what's the scoop on this?

http://www.swfa.com/pc-8561-971-new-leupold-3-9x40-mark-2-riflescope.aspx

I was curious about that too, couldn't find any info on Leupold.com.

Hmm......Poor man's Mark 4?

Looks to be....

I'll through some up in the big game forum for you....

It's "throw" you DMF.....Kiddin', love you man.....

blow me.........

Firefox dont work on those kind of spelling errors Paul.....grin

Gotta love it......

Both of you can Blow me!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not changing it!

Changing it now would destroy the beauty of it......or I'm just drunk.........

It's cool. I'm normally drunk! been playing with a new press... having a good time.........

Idaho shooter,

I'll make it easy on you............

M1's




Targets,

I have a scope very similar to that one! Leupold used to make a Vari X-II 3-9X40 Tactical, which had target turrets. This looks like an updated version of that.

What do you guys think about only putting an elevation turret on, and not doing a windage turret? I'd like to have elevation dialed in, but have no experience in wind doping, etc so feel I wouldnt use the windage turret as much. Is it weird to just have the one?

I've never seen a scope with just one ele turret. I think it would make the rifle too topheavy

LOL....top heavy?? As opposed to 'right side heavy'? I htink it might look goofy.....but wasnt considering weight or balance at all....

I think its a great idea and am planning on doing the same. Dialing in for 400-500 yards is way more important than a few wind inches that you're pretty much guessing on anyway.

J

a few? Looks like it could easily be 2 foot at 500 yards.

Gotta be M1's on my rig.

http://www.riflescopes.com/products/LEU62920/new_leupold_3-9x40_mark_2_riflescope.htm

While no photo is available; read the description. Leupold likes your idea.

J_Scott

It could be, but it depends on wind and how good you are at doping...It not so good right now, but would like to learn.

My point was that with a LRF you could be exact on the elevation dialing but you are sort of guessing wind when hunting. Even if you know how much it's blowing where you are and where the game is, what it's doing in between is always an assumption.

No doubt; and it should be stongly considered before lobbing projectiles at critters at 400 and 500 yards. With just a 10 mph wind, I have a feeling both parties could be unhappy. Not suggesting you'd do that, just thinking lots of practice and little wind is a good thing. I'd try to get closer whenever possible . . .

Take it easy Jason.

Am running just an ele on my 6x42, and wouldn't think about having a windage put on it (or most any 'hunting' rifle). My 6.5/284 play rifle is a different matter however...

J_Scott, Midway has a description www.midwayusa.com


Product # 217320

Having a windage turret comes in handy.Much as you dial in your elevation the same is nice to have for windage.I used my windage turret quite a bit when I was shooting silhouette but in all honesty have never used a w/turret for game.

For those that like to go to running deer shoots just dial in your lead,aim and fire.

Having only one offends me personally. i can't like it at all. give me both or nothing......

Looking forward to see it when it's in...

Dang-
I do have a scope with turrets, a VXIII 6.5-20EFR I use for rimfire competition, I don't know how I forgot that!?!

I guess I could slap it on a centerfire as an experiment, and see how I like it...

That you could....

It has the TTs on it, I think...
Hey, this could be fun!!
grin

Here is a 1 turret rig....

I like that rifle you got there, Mr. Steelhead!
Is that your 7-08 in an M7?

Yep, and it is about to become a 250AI. The 20" M7 tube just don't balance right for me, besides I could never warm up to 7mm's.......

Steely ... is that a factory bbl, or a custom? Either way, PM me about it ... I might want you to trip it my way ...

Factory

what do you want for it?

What to you want to give for it?

i WANT to give nothing for it ... I'd have you pay to get it unscrewed, and ship it to me (insured) all on your dime ... that's what i'd WANT ...

but the reality is, I'll pay you market value for a used remmy factory barrel ... I figure it will be a good stash for my son when I go to build him a 7mm-08 in the future ...

I'll trade you for a box of X bullets.........

or some 223 brass

or some 358 Win brass

I've got an azzload of once-fired .223 brass ... also can source some X bullets as well ... still, can offer cash too, so you get what suits your fancy ...

continue to discuss here, or send me a PM regarding this, and the .223AI bbl'd action ...

(hint: the wife has given me the green light to start building this rifle, so I have to act before she changes her mind ... otherwise, it's back to the "sneaky bastid" method, which is slow and painful at times ...)

It will be some months before it gets screwed off, probably. I'll send it to you.

The 223AI barreled action was a JOKE..........

Now if she will only buy into the twin thing, you'll have it made.................grin

I never know with you, what's serious and what's a joke ... Until I get to know you a tad better, I have to take just about everything you say at face value ... (grin)

Poor bastard.......

dude ... I'm already on that train ... can't say it's working, but I do keep trying ... (grin)

We all wish you the best of luck, make us proud!

bump for Wildswalker...

Stick composed one heck of a post. I can't believe it was so short lived back in the day.

To those who have never tried turrents, you're REALLY missing out!

Thanks Paul....I know you didn't bump it for me, but I had never got around the bookmarking it.

Now it's saved forever.

Great thread.

Getting ready to play with my Kimber this coming week and try out the turret. I have a question for you guys that have generated a starting point of MOA adjustements using a ballistics program to determine your starting points. How accurate have those numbers been for you guys at the range?

they'll get you in the ballpark..... sometimes they are spot on.. sometimes off a little....

Bringing this thread back up has only reminded me that I need to get out and decide on getting some turrets for the 7-08......damn!!

Real hunters don't need turrets. They're for shooter-wannabe-snipers. No practical application for hunting.

Oops.

I would say that it largely depended on what you were hunting, and where..........

Real hunters don't need guns, nor 4x4 trucks to get them to their hunting spots.

Guess I'll stay a fake..

Me too.........grins

I sure hope that fella was talking TIC! If not whew.......

Dober

The same guy hunts with an A-bolt......they've no practical application for hunting either.....

Thanks Paul...

Had a Pard here last night showin' off his new 7 mag and drillin' me about what scope he should be questing for. Of course you can guess what I might have told him...

We drank to his finally stepping into the realm of Big Game weoponry....

Wanted to show him this thread, I got it printed out...but I either loaned the hard copy out or it's buried somewhere, can't find it.

'Course it's difficult to focus sometimes, on Friday nights...when the booze is goin' down smooth....grin.

Nice to read a Stick post again......

Sorry guys, I guess the facetiousness of my post wasn't apparent enough.

It was...........

Then why did you miss it?

So what's the best way of getting turrets...

Buy a Mark 4 or VX-III with Target turrets or send in a VX-III and have them put on turrets?

To me the latter sounds more cost effective.

Mike

I didn't, you did...........grin

both............

does this add much weight to the scope?? also does anyone know if bushnell will do the same thing, like put the turret from the 10x 3200 on another scope??

bout 1-2oz max.

I put them two Leupies on the Big Brown Truck headed for Orygun......

Tagged for future reference

I sent my 6x42 in a few weeks ago for M1 elevation, they had it back to me in 8 days.

has anyone had leupold make a custom lazer edged BDC thingy for their turret?? they are supposed to be able to make one that matches the load you are shooting, this could be better as you would not have to look at a paper taped to your stock

Kenton industries does that too. Might be good for a l load rifle that hunts in fairly similar conditions.

fyi I called zeiss today and they will put on a 3x9 conquest for $60 bucks, bushnell said no, can't do it on the 3x9 4200, I don't really believe that it can't be done but thats what the guy said,

Still oughta be a sticky.........................

Yeah, should be.

My cheat sheets.....
I have a new VX3 LR on the way with M1 on top.

[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/su35/IMG_0089.jpg[/img][/img]

Dang, why on earth did I NEVER think to write on the cap....seriously, I have 3 rifles I taped it to the stock...wth... like that poor caveman with square wheels looking stunned at the caveman roll by with round wheels...why didn't I think of that.

oh, btw, I paid extra to order some scopes that dont ordinarily come without those monster turrets

+1

I have a hard enough time not losing hats, if I wrote something important on them they'd be gone in hours I'm sure.

Great idea for the more responsible among us.

Great thread resurrected!!

up (oughta get moved to the Optics forum)

Sitting on the side of a hill 6 days ago with my 15 year old. Watching a target of interest, I repeatedly lasered him till he was stationery and broadside. Told him the yardage, he dialed in the moa, setup on the sticks and double lunged him. M1 turret in that case. Won't mention the yardage other than to say it was well within his comfort zone. For us, turrets are the only way to play at range. And that was due to this thread so long ago....

Would be nice if the images were visible.

I have the images ...

Keep losing track of this one. I agree, images would be cool.

Post 'em, please

+1

There are turrets folks and look like this.

Get the BC of the bullet and the velocity and plug it into a ballistics program and it will give you drops out to say 1000 yards.

Here we go: 120gr Barnes TSX BC .411 velocity 3000 with a 200 yard zero, puts the bullet 1.5" high at 100.

Drop at 250 is 2.6 inches

Drop at 300 is 6 3/4"

Drop at 350 is 12.5"

Drop at 400 is 20"

Move the decimal point on the yardage two to the left and divide that number into the how much the bullet drops at that range.

So 250 yards becomes 2.5. Divide 2.5 into 2.6 so that gives you 1MOA. You don't need to count clicks just turn your turret to 1 and you are dead nuts on. Assuming 1/4 clicks you will have 3 hash marks between each whole number.

Again, 300 yards becomes 3. Divide 6 3/4" by 3 and you get 2 1/4MOA. Turn your turret to the first little hash past the number 2 and so on and so forth.

I also have a program that will spit out the MOA values in a neat little sheet that you can print out and tape to your stock, no math needed.

Target turret with your 1MOA dialed up for 250 yards (course I wouldn't sweat 2.5" of drop)





Target turret with 2 1/4MOA dialed in for 300 yards





M1 turret for 250yards





M1 turret for 300 yards

So easy a caveman could do it..

Hell ya, Larry gave me an Paul our lessons.

I'll say while he didnt give me "personal" lessons....what I learned I learned from his thread.

Here is a reproduction of Stick's original post ... WITH pictures.

===================================================================

I've been bombed with Emails,PM's and phone calls from guys that are goin' turret crazy all of the sudden. As my typed words are of even less use than my verbal communications,I thought it prudent to Post a coupla pictures that might help those that I managed to confuse.

I just hope my text doesn't muddle the pictures!



OK,in this picture is a Leupold "regular" turret. The type that wears a cover if you should want it and I generally do. So this is the way your rifle sets after you have it on paper at your preferred "normal'' zero range. On this particular rifle I like it sighted in and zeroed at 250yds. The bullet must strike +2.3" high at 100yds to yield that desired result. After that confirmation,I loosen up the three hex head screws that affix the micrometer head to the internal elevation spindle. I align the "0" reference number,with the vertical index indicator at the base of the turret assembly and retighten the set screws.

So in this configuration,I have a "regular" rifle sighted in a regular manner,the turret is just a bump on top of the scope and from my muzzle to the 250yd line I needn't give it a thought.

Savvy?



OK,now here is the turret moved in the upwards direction and it will shift impact from my pre-established zero. It is at the 3MOA setting,which is 12 seperate .25MOA graduations from my zeroed starting point. The U- indicator at the top tells me that counter clockwise increases elevation and the opposite reduces it.

With just that subtle amount of elevation increase,my rifle's zero has now changed from the 250yd line,to the 375yd line. So at that predetermined distance(as this ain't a guessin' game),I can paste my crosshairs dead on the target and that is where that bullet will impact.

After the shot,I return the scope to "0" and I'm back to my predetermined 250yd preference.



In this picture,the crosshairs have moved even farther upwards in elevation travel. The reflection from the flash obscures the whole minute designation mark,but this is a 7.5MOA poke. That is 7 whole minutes and two .25 "clicks".

The micrometer head is marked well and easily read. It starts at "0" goes to "3","6","9","12" and 15 ='s a complete revolution back to "0". Between those numbers are hash lines,designating the whole minute values(the longest of the hash marks). The mid lengthed hash marks are .50MOA designators and the tiny ones are .25MOA graduations. With about 7 seconds practice,it becomes very easy to cypher(even for me).

So with 7.5MOA up in the glass,this rifle is now dead on at the 525yd line. I make that shot,return the glass back down to "0" and I'm back to my favorite 250yd zero for this particular rifle.

Now to find the info to feed your scope,you gotta know a coupla things. The bullet's speed,BC,sight height and atmosphere. That will yield a trajectory drop chart that will likely yield an amazingly close ballistic profile.

From there,one must ascertain that generated data and the rifle/scope combo are in perfect harmony. That is yielded by shooting at a known(confirmed) distance and comparing generated findings to actual findings and fine tuning the data. All very easy.

This game is won and lost with range determination and an accurate/repeateable scope(they call 'em Leupolds). The laser is the measuring device and the 1200LRF Leica is THE machine for po' folks like me.



So here is a trajectory data reference chart,as spewed from my PACT Ballistic Computer.

I sorta screwed up,as this printout is not in sync with the above trajectory curve,though the principles are precisely the same. This is for a different rifle and I'm guessin' you know which one,from the El Marko credits atop the ribbon.

Anyhow,we'll use this for reference and at least it uses the same 250yd zero,one which I find useful for a bunch of different chamberings.

So let's say we've done the 100yd thing(sighted +2.0") at that distance and we've confirmed that we are on the money at the 250yd line. We now loosen the set screws an index the turret's head,to correspond with our "0" designation.

No we wanna see EXACTLY what it takes to get further downrange. To start,you divide the trajectory drop in inches,by the distance of the shot which is in yards.

So let's jump right to 450yds as a curiousity. To find the MOA info you need to feed the scope,you divide the drop (20") by range in yds and I designate yardage in decimal configuration. A 50 yard shot is divided by .50. A 125 yard shot is divided by 1.25. a 500 yard shot is 5.00. An 875 yard shot is 8.75. That decimal will yield a factor that we can use to round up to the nearest .25MOA "click" adjustment in the scope. Savvy?

Soooooo...20" divided by 4.50 yields 4.44MOA. Well we haven't the graduations required to dial that elevation in as the scope is graduated in 1/4MOA "clicks". BUT,we can round to 4.50MOA. that is 4 whole numbers and 2 "clicks" of .25 per each.

Now as a curiousity,let's see how much precision we "lost" by rounding up to the nearest 1/4MOA graduation our scope allows us. Simply multiply 4.50(range in yards) x 4.50MOA(our nearest rounded adjustment graduation) ='s 20.25". The correction we dialed deviated but 1/4" from perfection,in a perfect world.

A 1/4" "click" at 100yds shifts impact 1/4". That adjustment at 200yds,shifts impact by 1/2". At 1000yds that 1/4" "click" is now moving impact 2-1/2" per "click". Savvy?

Some would think that because it is a 1/4" "click" scope,you'd have the graduations to negate that 1/4" difference between the actual 20" drop chart figure and the 20.25" correction we rounded up to,but the ''clicks" grow in size as range is extended. That is why I like toss that decimal in there and round to the nearest .25MOA graduation,because that is the finest adjustment I can mechanically make at ANY distance.

Soooooo....let's crack somethin' at 850yds. That is the drop in inches (152.1") divided by 8.50 and that yields 17.89MOA. My preference is to round up and the next 1/4 minute graduation mechanically available is at 18MOA. So that is one complete turret upward revolution(15MOA per revolution) and 3 more whole minutes. Whammo,make the shot,crank down to zero and you are back at 250yds.

See howww easy it is?.........................

==================================================================

so that's it ... same basic thing as what Steelhead was so kind as to post, but for those who wanted the original, that's it ...

Thanks fellas....

If you use the JBM ballistic calculator it can give you corrections in moa (or mils, inches, or centimeters).

It saves you the conversion math.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/calculations/calculations.html

I have several different programs, one I like much and they all zing them out in MOA, but I figured a little math lesson would help folks to get an idea where the numbers come from, in general.

I got ya.

How the heck are you these days Shane?

Maybe them that need all the schooling on turrets shouldn't be taking pokes at long range, eh?

MM

Maybe not yet, but you gotta learn somehow. Regardless of the topic, I'll take a little schooling whenever I can get it, as it beats learning everthing the hard way.

Some never learn................

Then again, some things are self evident.

MM

Holy Smokes,this Thread is a treasure trove of condensed info.

Too bad some of the words were too big,for Montanan comprehension levels.........................

I guess that answered my question.

Montanan's don't need explanations of the obvious; maybe 'crackers do..........LOL

MM

Thanls for putting the pictures up, WGM. And also Steelhead for his contribution.
Good stuff.

MM,

Anytime you feel brazen enough to banty the rifle,give it a whirl toots................

WTF?

Methinks you misunderstand.........I'm all for turrets (& put the 1st set on a gun 15 years ago before they became in vogue here), I just don't think their use is so complicated as to require pictorial and detailed explanations as to how to use them.

Them that needs that kind of tutoring maybe should rethink the plan.

Obviously you seem to know their value............

MM

A pic is worth 1000 words and a condensed Tutorial is a shove in the right direction.

Someone screws that up,they are beyond hope................

Sad, but true.

MM

I'm sittin' here thinking
"I wonder how MontanaMan gets his scope dialed back to zero after he spins his elevation turret a few times, but is not quite sure how many times?"

Obviously, you've not done it or you wouldn't be wondering.................

Window licking will only get you so far.

MM

Shane,

That's a nice program & is more complete than the one I've been using.

Thanks for posting.

MM

BS/PWC(same guy I'm assuming)/Others, new to this so bear with me. Any 'ol ballistic calculator work OK?

Getting ready to do this on my varmint AR that has a scope w/ target turrets....wanting to do it right...

the JBM Ballistics web site it pretty decent.


http://www.jbmballistics.com/calculations/calculations.html

i first take a guess as to MV and input everything else as accurately as possible. print out a range card and go to the range. then record how many MOA/mils it takes to get to the distant targets. then you can go back to JBM and tweak the MV input until it exactly matches your real life bullet drops. then you print out the final range card and laminate it/ tape it to your stock.

First and foremost, get a chrony and the rest comes real easy.

You can spend between $100.00-$200.00 and take all the guessing right out of the equation.

got one. but i trust the bullet drop data more than the chronograph

the quickload output entered into quicktarget or JBM gets one in the ball park. that's all a chronograph will do. but no matter what you use for initial JBM input, it WILL need tweaked to match your real life bullet drop.

and it is still so easy a caveman can do it.

I said start.....Not the finish.........(grin)

The cavemen I hang out with get their bullet drop data from shooting and recording. (o course using the tables for a guide to get started) But nothing is better than actually firing and keeping a data book. Nonetheless I lean on exbal and use a chronograph and finally do the data book. I know you guys already know this, sorry for insulting y'alls intelligence.

+1 you owe it to the critter to practise at all the ranges on your drop chart and not let a calculator from GOD do it for you.
Sure you go through a lot of bullets and spend days doing it but there is no short cut that works, period.

totally agree. the real recorded bullet drop is the gospel. making the JBM match your REAL bullet drop is the trick. that is where the tweaking comes in.

God and gospel that's pretty good there toad. Your a clever fella!
Have agood day LOL

bump

Wow. What happened to the civil person in the first post here, back in '03?

If he still acted like that, and put out info in that manner, there'd be a whole lot less animosity and divisiveness around here.

Should be a sticky. He still is like that - mostly.

He is still here. Just ask him for advice, and he will give it. Like most folks, his tolerance for bullchit wanes with time. He has gotten a little quicker calling a spade a spade though.

Exactly.

Never, not ONCE, asked Larry for advice that he didn't offer it, and in spades.

Might not have liked the answers per my preconceived notions, but his advice is normally pretty square on, and always from BT/DT.

Troof is worth duplication.

+1

Always...

Field and Stream won't hurt your feelers.

Field and Stream will also tell you to buy a savage with a tasco.......

I simply say..."Top It"...........(grin)

When and Where Lil Fish??

Yesterday and tomorrow..............

When and Where Lil Fish??

Too soon AND too late?...................

When and where Lil Fish??

Lets shoot some lead and figure out who really knows how to get the hits.

Cripes - it's "post your load" all over again...

Yeah, it's painful to watch.

I just wanna see the video... Good will be an understatement.

Gonna have to rename this thread "Tourettes 101."

too the top some good info here

Does anyone have the original post with the pictures and pictures of the drop chart in the next post? Id sure like to print it with pics!

Send a PM to Boxer and reference this thread. Boxer = Big Stick. He will be glad to help you out.

Up, so I can find it quicker

Bookmark it

Did.

It's alive!

This should have been stickied long ago.

up, as is relevant again (always).