I was on their website looking and noticed they offer three types of bolt face...coned, flat, and enclosed..

Is there a reason for that and what do most Defiance users seem to prefer for a hunting rifle

Beautiful actions

Bob - I've been contemplating a Defiance action and noticed this option as well. Would be interested in hearing from those who have them too. Seems as though the "flat" configuration would remove a step in the barreling process as you wouldn't need to machine a recess of any sort in order to accommodate a coned or recessed bolt nose.

Bob..Ive been looking at them also...a little to close and often

I have used recessed on all my repeater guns and cone on my single shot.

sorth any reason why in particular? Are there advantages to either one over the other?

I've never seen a flat face with a sako extractor normally they have a sliding plate extractor in the lug like Bat and Stolle panda uses!

You won't want to use a cone bolt face if you are building a repeater, could have issues with feeding from the magazine, as for the flat or recessed I can not tell you which would be better, the gunsmiths I use get in recessed ones so that is what my guns were built on.

I believe the claim is with a Sako or M16 extractorr the flat bolt nose provides more of a safety factor? Coned is only for single shot unless you have a mauser style extractor.

http://defiancemachine.com/options/

I have to admit that I dont think i've ever seen a rifle set up with the flat version.

My 6.5x47 1000 yard Defiance has the cone bolt nose.
Its a single shot and is just about the smoothest functioning action i've been around.I like it better than my Stolle Pandas.
The Panda has the sliding plate extractor cut right into the cone on the front of the bolt and is a very clean set up.
I had the gunsmith ask Defiance about doing that and they declined.
With Defiance you get a M-16 style extractor.
I only have about 600 rounds on my Rebel so far and the function has been flawless.
Had more than a few top end ladder tests without a hitch.
At some point and time im going to build another 17 lb "light" rifle.
It will be a Defiance Rebel action without a dought.

I have two Defiance long action repeaters.
One with a 06 bolt face and one with a mag bolt face.
Both have the enclosed bolt head.
And the same smoothness and workmanship of my single shot.
Its like handling a work of art.
They should be done this year.

One of the things alot of people miss about these actions is the primary extraction.
Defiance uses a 5 axis cnc milling machine and the mating surfaces are "matched".
When the bolt handle is part of the bolt.
Its the right way to do it.



dave

Can't imagine why a cone bolt would impair mag feeding. Case head contacts the bolt face, not the coned lugs. My 6.5 CM has a coned bolt and feed excellent.

Joe/Dave: They look very nice!

Thanks guys! Seems the M16 extractor is a good way to go?

Bob,
Its just a longer,heavy duty version,of the Sako.

I had my repeaters sent to Dave Gentry for the M70 safe install.
Got them back and they look great.
Have all the rest of the parts.
Just a waiting game now.
And I have still have to make up my mind on the mag bolt face.
dave

Yes. I've got 3 Defiance actions w/M16 type extractors....well built actions/good CS.

Can anyone tell me whether the Talley lightweight alloy rings built for the Nesika Bay actions will work on these?

Not just the lugs are coned, the bolt face lip is also, with the bolt face lip being coned there may not be enough of a lip to grab the shell from the clip.

Depending on the bridge style you get, I have two different styles, with the one style Nesika Talleys fit, with another style Rem 700 fit but hang in to the port area a bit and I think there is a third style but not sure what kind of rings they take. With the Remington bridge my gunsmith usually machines the front of the base a bit so it does not hang in to the port area and makes the fit/finish a little better.

Nesika action with flat bolt face seems to work well.




Don't know the advantages/disadvantages though.

I seem to remember that the bench rest guys liked the cone shaped bolt nose saying that they felt that shape helped feeding. Maybe dave7mm or butchlambert1 would know why they preferred that shape.

Stoney/Everyone: Thanks for the info.

Got to get you out of the antique mil surp action mindset..........

I've talked to a couple smiths and one action builder that said the sliding plate extractors can be fussy, but they are a safer option than a Sako type extractor!

I only have 1 Defiance (GAP Templar) but must agree with everyone else, it is without a doubt the finest action I have ever owned.

I do hope, however, that Defiance comes out with the CRF action they have talked about!

Maybe somthing simular to Mcm's crf but more reasonable...

I have 4 Pandas.There all coned on the bolt nose.
Yes its for feeding.
You'd be surprised how fast you can get 5 rounds down range with a right bolt left port action.

dave

Also by Glenn Harrison.
Running the 300 RSAUM on this one.


dave

Man alive that thing looks heavy duty. They polished the [bleep] outta that thing too.

That is how all defiance actions come from the factory.

When I ordered my last one, I was thinking about going with the flat. I was told they have that option for the guys building big magnums. More bolt lug = stronger.

RD,
The action in the pic is a Nesika model G.
In the 17 lb "light" rifle with my furry buddie Frank.



As nice as the finish is on the Nesika.
The new Defiance is even more so,
Glenn Harrision used to own Nesika.
He started and now runs Defiance Machine.
Hes upped his game and there are improvements on the Defiance that the Nesika models never had.

dave

Sniff.... Haha! Thinking I want one of these but not sure "what for"...

No question these are cool actions.

I do have that Bartlein 6mm #4 hanging around..6XC?...but am sort of lusting after a 6.5 Creedmoor but there are no factory rifles I want....all too heavy.Thinking one of these in a short action.Build a gun kinda like Pat's GAP 260....with one of those larger than average scopes with toorits... I want a repeater.

Bob,
Lapua just came out with a 6.5mm,136g Scenar L bullet.
Trade off that 6mm thing and pick up a 6.5mm barrel and build yourself a tacticacool carry rifle.

Last summer I pushed 136g Hoover VLD bullets out of a puny little 6.5x47 all the way out to 1000 yards.
killed steel just fine at that distance.

Watched my spotter buddie last summer kill two woodchucks with his 6.5x47 1000 yard "light" rifle.We were doing alittle 500 yard load development and the Suicide woodchuck squad showed up.
He shot one off the 200 yard backstop with a 140g Berger Hybrid.It says on the box, TARGET ONLY.And there not kidding.
At the shot the little fellow did a back bite like he was stung by a bee or something and made a mad dash for his hole.
We just kinda look at one another.
Hes dead in the hole alright but we wont be trying that one again.
Bout 20 minutes later victim number two shows up.
Buddie switches out to a 123g AMAX.
This little fellow was sitting on a log sunning himself about 175 yards out.
At the shot the poor guy got flipped into the air about two feet and landed about 3 feet behind where he was sunning himself.
Pretty much a unrecognizable pile of guts
We just kinda looked at one another,again.
The 6,5x47 is your huckleberry Bob.
You need to talk to that Scenarshooter guy on here.
You need one bad.....
Am I helping....


dave

Enabler....

What am I gonna do with that Bartlein? Gotta start all over again....

Hell what's wrong with a 105Amax?

Not a thing wrong with the 105 AMAX.
Sure does make a mess of a chuck out of a 243.
But as soon as I can swing it,im dumping the 6mm 243 stuff for the 6.5x47.
We scoped my 243.
A 243 WCF tears up a throat alot faster than I care for.
My spotters "light" rifle has 1000 rounds down the tube and we scoped it to.Very impressive.At 1000 rounds hes not even close to being half way done.
Thats the thing Bob.
I dont want you to wear it out.
Thats what 6mms do.

dave

I made the mistake of talking to him quite a bit. And I am now hopefully halfway through my wait for a Non Typical in, drum role please, .260 Remington....

Sell me the Bartlein...

Oh....shidt!

Off topic, but interesting Ed Brown CRF bolt face.

In the process of building a 6.5x47. Defiance Deviant Action, Krieger 5R 1:8 fluted Medium Palma, Manners T4 90% Carbon Fiber Mini Chassis, Vortex Razor HD 5-20 MOA EBR2B. Waiting for the 136 to be available and going to have the reamer ground for them seated to max OAL in the AW magazines and minimum no turn neck.

Now theres a real nice blue print for you Bob.
Lets see.
You could hunt vermin with it.
You could hunt deer from a blind.
You could hunt pigs from a blind.
You could shoot f class matches with it.
You could shoot sniper matches with it.
You could shoot steel targets at impossible distances and just impress the crap out of yourself...
See Bob, you really do need one.
Am I helping yet


blackfootkenai,
Loaded 6.5x47 Lapua rounds typically measure about .290/.2905.
At least the blue box brass that i've been messing with does.
I reload with a Redding full length S die and a .289 bushing.
I just got done skimming my first 100 pieces with the K&M neck turner.I got about 90% clean up at .2892 on the loaded round.Thats with a 130g Berger VLD at the pressure ring.
All I have to do is drop the bushing size in my die from .289 to .288.and im good to go.
Figured id try the 130g Berger VLD.The 136 Hoover is a VLD and it outshot my 140 Berger hybrids....at least at 500 yards anyway..
Good luck with your project and I will expect pictures when its done...


dave

Bottom lug sure seems to have been weakened, but an interesting design!

Got a Bartlein for sale, 260 8 twist, attached to a Borden Alpine, Jewell, all wrapped up in a McM Classic

What many are coming to realize what I did in the mid 90s, about 99% of ALL I do and NEED to do, can be accomplished with these:

6BR and 260.

Any variation from 6-7mm in a case from a BR/variant, 47 Lapua/22-250, or 308 case. They WORK, KILL well, accurate, MILD recoil/blast, and bbl life is good.

For a repeater, a mild 6.5 or a 6XC would be my VERY top picks.

Will a vanilla 308 'Get it Done?' SURE, but more bark/bite on MY end than I want....or need.

Not much a good 105 amax, or a good 120-130gr 6.5 can't do when placed right Excellent on deer/hogs, and if larger I'd go 6.5 just b/c.

Not owned a Defiance....yet. Perhaps someday, zero reservations.

Was thinking .292" neck. Was thinking 140 Hybrids until I saw that sexy 136 Lapua with the promise of even better consistency than current Scenars.

Interesting alright.
kinda makes you wonder what would happen if you had a case head separate.?


dave

Any word on when you can get those 136 L bullets.
Grafs says sold out.


dave

They haven't gotten them yet but the Lapua USA rep was saying on some other forums to expect them in the next couple of months it sounded like. Grafs lists them already but they haven't arrived.

"These will be available in pretty short order, but I don't know exactly when the first shipment will arrive. The BC should be better than the 139, as the ogive was sharpened a bit. This was a bit of a departure from the other L's, in that it actually did incorporate a slight redesign. All of the earlier L series bullets, were in exactly the same shape as the original standard Scenar bullet it supplemented. Our new 69 and 77 grain Scenar L's follow this format, and are ballistically identical to their existing Scenar forerunners. As Pekka Lintula, our R&D Engineer described it, this (the new 136) is actually an "optimization" of the previous 139 grain bullet. The weight turned out at 136 grains after the reprofiling, and that's what they went with. Same situation exactly with the 120/123 grain bullets.

There's also two new 30 cal additions to the L line that I'm eager to work with; the 175 and 220 Scenar Ls. The 175 in particular, is very streamlined, and should show a notable BC advantage over existing 175s currently on the market. These won't reach full production status until the middle to latter part of 2013, but I'll keep you posted just as soon as I hear more.
_________________________
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
"

....and 300 WM brass.........

Good to see you here Kevin.


Roy

That was his post from Accurate Shooter.....

Buy the best and cry once.....

www.batmachine.com/

I did, once....

Only ever got a good look at a bat one time.
Very nice.
I still like the Defiance better.


dave

Sorry I missed that. I was speaking to Kevin last week about Lapua 300 WM brass on the horizon.

I'll be testing that bullet and the new 120gr scenar this coming week. They both appear to have a "hybrid" type ogive. I'll run them through both of my .260's and find out what the BC's are, both G1 and G7.

How about a report on weight and base to ogive consistency also?

Ya, I know.....that piece of tape was a real bitch....

Take a stroll up and down the competition line and compare who's shooting what...

Benchrest, or tactical?

Sorry, I deal in BR...but they do have VR and HR's which are 700 clones, quite suitable in all configurations.

I've got a HR single shot for my 338/300 that seems to do alright.

That has to do more with the fact that Bat has about a 20 year head start on Defiance.
And short range BR has always been alot of monkey see monkey do.
I dont have a problem with the Bats.
In fact I think there very nice.
I just like the way the Defiance actions finish up.


dave

Well yea,it figures you'd already have some.
I need 1000.
Know where I can get some?
You need to chew on Bobs ear some and get him addicted....


dave

Is Defiance geared more toward the competition crowd, moreso than hunters?

I really like the looks of their "Sheep" tang and port and those options would make for a nice hunting rig, IMO.

Anyone here actually hunt with their Defiance actions? If so, please detail.

The two hunting versions I have are 700 clones with a tennon .125 longer than a M700.Only difference.
Mine are not done.
Yet.
They will be set up with BDL PTG bottom metal.
They will get hunted with for sure...



dave

I hunt the crap out of mine. I couldn't find any photos in my photobucket account. Have to check the hard drive. My other computer blew up and i have limited stuff on the one I am using now. Mine is a long action repeater, 6.5-284, Mcmillan Hunter pattern stock, Glen Seekins 20 MOA rail, The entire barreled action is nitrided, 8 twist Shilen on it.

I'm listening to everybody...I have no experience with these Rem clone-type custom actions.....looks like my 8 twist 6mm is sold,if I want to....

Correct

I'm talking 600/1K BR, not point blank..

But now that you brought it up, if they didn't work, it'd be sorted out damn quick, short or long range. It ain't just flavor of the month club...

And for the record, I'm not bashing Defiance or anyone's action. We're damn lucky to have the choices we do. I've got Stolles, Bats, one Phoenix, and a Stiller on the way, so I'm an equal opportunity spender....

I have hunted & killed numerous game with my Defiance actions, what else would I do with them......

This buck got Defianced....

Defiance hasn't been around too long, but Glenn Harrison who owns Defiance has, ie Nesieka. I've had Stolle and Stiller, and trued Remingtons, but my next will be a Defiance purely based on the results I've read from others and the features they offer. I called and talked to them and I can specify a .062" firing pin hole, what tang I want, they are cut to run either AW or AICS mags, the longer barrel tenon, etc. What I really like over Stiller is they actually lengthen the port and give you a choice of port length, whereas Stiller has actually written to me that his actions were not designed to eject a loaded round. That's fine for BR or varmint hunting, but for hunting things with teeth and claws or for tactical matches/situations, I want something that will eject a loaded round that either doesn't go bang or won't chamber.

These actions on the heavy side?

Depends which one and which options you choose. I would think the Rebel with a hunter port, deep flutes, and sheep tang might be a little lighter than a Remington? The Deviant with the integral lug and rail are heavier I'm sure.

Not really.....this rifle(.260)weighs in right at eight pounds ready to go. I have an identical rifle to it built with a R700 SA in .308 that is only a few ounces lighter.

Along the same route as slg888 up above, this elk got "Defianced":

What triggers are you guys dropping on these actions?

Jewell & Timney in mine.

I run Jewell HVR's and have one with an old style Rem. tuned to 1.5

Stoney/Sendero man: Thanks!

My 17lb rifle has a Jewell.
The hunters will have Rifle Basic.
2oz triggers really dont need a trigger shoe.
Theres not alot to feel at 2 oz.
Rifle Basic has nice trigger shoe and have been zero defect wise on all my other stuff.

dave

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3803792.0
From the very same crew that built my twins my 375 H&H and my 17 mach IV and one of my 6mm PPCs Bob.
Scott and Meredith.
Am I helping yet

dave

Dwight Scott is surely one of the best Barrel chamberers but is not so good at the finishing touches, but for a guy just looking for a really good chamber he is one of the best!

Tape? No, looks like a dremel tool got loose on the feed ramp.

Many remember the story, the owner had a 'Don't give a CHIT' attitude, so I sold it, Stoney bought it, BAT repaired it, no 'tape' wherever you get that idea I have no idea.

When a company proclaims they are 'THE BEST' and puts out CHIT like that above....well - I am unconvinced.

Cannot believe any custom action maker would let an action go out the door w/a feed ramp looking like that - and if I am expecting too much for the price paid, I guess I should have bought a SUCKS action....b/c it would have been better.

65BR,

Let it go!! You sold the action, bought what you wanted & Stoney got an awesome BAT action in which he's very happy with, game over.

FWIW,

I bought a BAT HRPIC action after your issues, it was delivered to me absolutely FLAWLESS!! Even though you had a bad experience, you have to admit BAT makes great stuff.

Jeff - Stoney had the BAT repair the action as I mentioned, obviously BAT chose to take more interest in the situation after a long delay on my end.

Now Jeff, i.e. you received a barrel from a company that is regarded as a top mfg, and that bbl shows up w/chatter marks in the lands/grooves, or perhaps no grooves at all, I am sure you would be just as disappointed, and expect much more for your money, or at least I do b/c I work hard for mine.

Glad your experience differs. As to 'letting it go' not sure where someone above determines the FACTS above are not legit. The pic does not lie.

Sure is interesting how many on the board get upset when their pet product receives less than favorable reviews by someone who has received a Lemon. Enjoy your BAT's.

If someone does not like the facts I report - ignore them, but don't call me a liar.

65BR:

If I receive a component that is messed up from the factory, I too would be calling that company to explain the problem & get it fixed, no doubt!!

My question to you is, how come Stoney was able to get it repaired by BAT with minimal effort, but you could not??

Also, I wouldn't have went on 3 or 4 different forums and ranted about the problem before BAT was given the chance to make it right!!

Not trying to be an ass here, just telling you how I truthfully feel.

65BR:

Believe me, I have had some problems with a few companies in the custom rifle/shooting buisness - I think we all have.

For example: bad gunsmithing work, wrong components, a $2500 scope that was junk outta the box, etc.. etc...I called each customer service and got things squared away. Was it a royal pain in the azz - you betcha!! Was I disappointed - you betcha!!

Schit happens but you just got to deal with it the best you can & move on!! You got a new action you were happy with & Stoney got his, game over.

Jeff - why are your panties in a wad about MY bad experience?

The Fact is I received CHIT, and when I contacted BAT repeatedly I did not get any satisfaction for days. It was unacceptable.

By the time Stoney bought the action, he had PREVIOUSLY asked BAT if they'd repair it, PRIOR to buying it. Stoney had time to wait for the repair.

I don't buy CHIT for Top $$$$ and expect to have to wait a week to get a reply w/a 'Don't give a CHIT' attitude.

Yep, CHIT happens Jeff, and it chaps your azz that it happened to brand you own.

Again, enjoy your BAT.

65BR:

To be honest, I don't give a schit about your experience - just tired of hearing about it!!

I tried to post/talk with you rationally, but I guess you can't do that??

I do enjoy my BAT - its a hammer!!





Take care.

Congrats Jeff, my Borden Alpine will hold it's own no worries.

Rationally? If Factual is not rational, I guess you are living in something other than reality.

Just b/c someone has a different and negative experience w/a product that happens to be YOUR huckleberry, it does not make it irrational or illogical. It just means you got your feelings hurt.

If you cannot stand the facts, then put me on ignore, b/c that's what I share, MY experience, based on facts.

Fact is BAT Fubbed up, and when contacted, dropped the ball on me. Call a spade a spade. So, I simply bought my next 4 actions from another mfg.

I might not like a #5 tube on a hunting rifle, but does that make you irrational or illogical b/c I disagree?

Here are my two:

65BR:

Where ever you got that BAT is my go to action is wrong - I have rifles built on Defiance, Surgeon and BAT actions. To tell you the truth, I'd buy a Surgeon or Defiance before I'd buy another BAT (nothing against BAT at all, just like the other 2 a little more).

Out of all the custom actions I have used, Surgeon is my favorite by a mile!!

PS-If you think my feelings are hurt because your're bitchin & moanin about your experience with a rifle action, you're waayyy of base!!

I could care less what component you like or dislike - I don't give a rats azz, believe me!!

Funny Jeff, and you said above for me to let it go?

You are like a Democrat, if something is said you don't like - you criticize the messenger.

Jeff..Cliff, calm the F*ck down!

Here are the facts...

1. The Bat had a piece of embedded scotch tape that resembled a scratch in Cliff's pics. It was removed.

2. The feed ramp had some scratches also shown in 65BR's pics. Bat buffed them out.

Thanks for selling me the action Cliff. Jeff, I have nothing to thank you for so GFY.

No Jeff I do not drink Corona, the wife does. The Bat........

Hey Stoney how about you SMD!!

LOL!!!

I know you don't drink Corona - you really enjoy your Bartle & James wine coolers.

Stoney, glad you had a nice rifle built with it and enjoy it.

I never was not calm...during this discussion.

Stoney,
How did you get the Corona bottle to hold the rifle upside down without spilling all that piss water out of the bottle???

Lol, you use your IPhone on 24hr like myself. When using my IPhone the pics are upside down, but on my laptop there not. I have no idea why...maybe someone knows the answer ?