What a great idea!

I've heard of a few over the years, but I'd like to know who you think qualifies in the TOP 5.

Bill Leeper comes to mind.

Who else?

Martin Hagn and Ralf Martini

Two shops in BC, Weber and Markin, and as mentioned Martini and Hagn are as good as anybody in the world at producing high-end Custom Gun Guild type of rifles.

Dennis Sorensen is supposed to be very good.

Bill Leeper is a friend of mine, and is my first go-to choice for rifle making, but he is also back-logged to the point of not taking in any more work at this time. Worth the wait however. He has built walnut stocked, controlled-feed rifles for me with sporter weight barrels that shoot 0.3 MOA at 100 and 200 yards.

Prairie Gun Works in Winnipeg makes their own actions and can make some screaming accurate rifles, but I have heard they presently have a contract with the Defence Dept. and are taking in only limited work. Not sure on that however.

There are another couple of shops in western Canada that are good at screwing a barrel into a M700 action, half-ass bedding it in a a synthetic stock and selling it for relatively high dollars as a "custom". They shoot well enough to fool a lot of people. I would prefer not to say the names on the board, if you are serious about building a rifle PM me and I'll spill the beans.

If I was starting from scratch I believe I would contact Dennis Sorensen on Vancouver Island. He is taking on work and has been producing high quality work for a long time.

Several others of course but I have no personal experience with them.

I am not impressed by Sorenson, having met him and seen his work. Chris Weber is/was the finest stockmaker in Canada, but, he is very slow, hard to contact and is supposedly back in Germany working; his partner Steve is good, went to school with my youngest brother and is an artist. I do not think his work quite up to that of top US guys like Jerry Fisher, Echols or Goudy, based on what I have seen, to date.

I would not own a Ross Spagrud rifle, based on experiences of a chap I sold a tarted-up P-64 H&H action to; the rifle he built was, IMHO, pretty pathetic,so, Prairie Gunworks is not high on my list.

Martini & Hagn are about our only carriage trade 'smiths, I like their singleshots and may buy one in a couple of years; I don't care for their bolt rifles and my Dakota 76 from the late '80s has workmanship every bit as nice as the bolt rifles i have seen from their shop. I think that you pay a lot for Hagn's name, in all honesty.

The other shop that comes to mind is Corlane and they do charge far too much for what they offer, yet, a number of very good shooters I know use and enjoy their rifles, each to his own...........

Bill Leeper is the man, I only wish that he was younger and could be cloned, he KNOWS how to build a hunting rifle!

Dewey, we think alike!

I didn't know Weber was back in Germany. I have seen, and drooled, over his stock work. Totally out of my price range anyway.

That's a shame about Sorensen, I had heard good things. The list of smiths in Canada is shorter than I thought.

The Hagn single shot is also at the top of my wish list. I have heard it described by someone who knows as the best that can be produced by old-world methods, while the Dakota may be the best that mass-production can provide. I have compared the two and the Dakota did not fare well in the comparison.

Leeper is definitely the go-to guy in my mind, but as I mentioned is so back-logged that he is unfortunately unavailable for the time being. A little while back I had the latest sheep rifle built, instead of having Leeper build it I sent the action to Gaillard for truing and barrel installation, then the barreled action to BRNO284 for action lightening and stock work. It will be in my hands literally any day now, will keep you posted on my thoughts.

Kutenay , you had me worried for a while when you mentioned Martini & Hagn, but you managed to bash them also.Hmmmm.
In Canada with the current political attitude I think gunsmiths tend to be more reserved when it comes to publicity.
We have gunsmiths like Vic Swindlehurst.There are some making high quality barrels ,Ron Smith comes to mind.Lot's of good people out there.
You also have to remember to do this job you have to
have a sense of humor.

I did NOT bash anyone and I have 40+ years of experience with custom rifles to base my opinions on. The first Smith barrel I ever shot was in 1990 and it was crap, some of the subsequent ones were excellent. Sorry, pal, but your comments strike me as being an attempt to enter a discussion by denigrating the opinion of someone else, rather than by gaining experience for yourself.

If, you are a gunsmith, as you imply, then why not tell us who you are and let your work speak for you. I bought my first custom rifle, an Al Biesen .270, in 1968 at age 22; I only offer opinions on rifles I have actually owned or shot and those of my partners. Hagn, not Hagan, is a superb gunmaker, but, I have seen and shot a number of his boltguns that were less than spectacular, especially for the cost. Stating this is not bashing, it is simply my experience.

There are NOT many "top" gunsmiths in Canada, in fact, there are almost none compared to the USA, where there are dozens of top gun makers. I have found that every one of the gunsmiths in this country that I have contacted was quite eager to do work for me, including Weber, Martini, Uno, Smith, McPhee, Corlane, Prairie, Bevan King and Ted Gaillard as well as Carey Stricker, Bill Leeper and Jim Dugan. I have not found anyone who wanted to avoid publicity or lose the opportunity to build a rifle for a serious gunnut, in fact, Weber was after me for some years to have him do a pair of rifles on some actions I had and to let Steve re-build my Mod. 71.

However, you may know people I don't and perhaps you would be kind enough to share your knowledge and list the smiths you consider "top" with contact info; this would help all of us and be a great boon to everyone. Thanks in advance.

I didn't see where he bashed anyone, just offered an honest opinion. I can't disagree with anything he said. Can you add your experience with these or other Canadian riflemakers that would differ from this?

And it's "Hagn" , not "Hagan".

I haven't met Kutenay personally, but can say from his postings he's as straight a shooter as they come, and has the real experience to back it up. He didn't bash anyone, simply stated his experience.

I've also seen the works of some of the highly touted smiths that simply didn't measure up, in fact we have one such shop in Anchorage.

The selection of Canadian gun makers just isn�t that good. I concur heartily with Dewey on his assessment of Martini and Hagn. Some of their stuff is stunning, while some leave something to be desired. Prairie Gun works stuff leaves me cold. And so do their ethics. Life is just too short to deal with people like that, and I won�t.

Corlane are pretty good at assembling rifles. They turn them out pretty quick and their rifles are pretty serviceable. I�ve had two rifles built by them and unless things improve there, I won�t have them build any others. Bill Leeper has to be the best gunsmith in this country. He built me the best rifle I have ever owned and will build me others. He is busy though and, as has been pointed out, is not taking any new work.

My next rifle will be built south of the border. In fact, I�ve started collecting components in Millville Utah�������

Chuck

Kutenay I respect your knowledge and opinions because they come from experiance. I know some of the people you mentioned , one is a friend.My first reaction was that this was turning into one of those negative internet pile on's we all hate.
It was not my intention to insult anyone and I apologize If I did.I was not trying to poke the bear with a stick.

Now back to guns .
Glenn

For target rifles,Mick Mcphee is building good barrels, PWG has a good reputation as does Keith Cunnigham.
But for custom hunting rifles Chris Webber .
Geroge Pohl and Eddy Vanatsan (SP) used to do VERY fine work, but I don't know what happened to Ed.
Mr. Pohl drops into Elwood Epps sometimes wjhen they are stuck, according to Wes ( one of the proprieters) but he is packing an oxygen tank these days instead of a micrometer!

Ron Smith is getting up there also, but he is working woith his son, who built one of my barrels.
Things carry on.

Cat

I think there is certainly a difference between a "Gunsmith" and a fella that can screw a tube on straight.

The art of "Gunsmithing" is all but lost in Canada, as there are very few that can build and fit stocks from scratch, make cartidges feed flawlessly, build and fit actions and other small parts, as well as the other finicky work involved with making a rifle into a finely crafted work of art.

Martini and Hagn are likely the best, and Bill Leeper gets great reviews (certainly a favorite of the "name droppers") but I have not seen anything he's built that was extrordinarily special in the barrel or stockwork dept. Certainly nothing that warranted a few years wait over the others. I hear he is very talented though, and able to make things feed slick and work well (triggers), certainly foreign to many "smiths", and is an excellent benchrest shooter.

As far as "Pipe Fitting" - making a great tube, squaring up an action, and twisting on a tube with a good chamber, I have have great success in using Ted Gaillard, and Rembo (on this site) has the skills to twist a tube on with precision as well.

As far as glass stockwork goes, nobody in Canada has put one together that impressess me greatly (100% of the time). Brno284 is the best bet. There are some capable folk, but the small details often get missed, but most customers just grin and walk away happy. Not me..... warranty work is almost a given! Not a super hard thing to do, simply the small attention to detail and pride in your work. Certainly not rocket science, but unfortunately it seems to be for some.

As far as the other one that Kutenay and Chuck mentioned......they have the best warranty in the business, and belive me, if you are going to use them, you'll need it. In my experience (I'm a slow learner), they are batting about 1:10 in their success ratio for projects I've seen them do that actually make it without a few trips back for fixin'. I swear they don't even read the detailed written instructions you send them!!!!!! Saw 2 bolt knobs they milled out (Rem 700 TI style) that I swore I could have done better with a case of beer and a cordless drill... and when I asked over the phone how they looked the reply "AWESOME"!!!!! That speaks volumes for their work, enough said!!!!!

So, I personally haven't found any "ONE" person that does it all, and as a result end up shipping a rifle all over Canada to get the desired finished product. This has proved to be super successful, and I will continue to do so.

In my experience, beware the "Jack of all trades", as they typically are the "Masters of None"!!!!!

280_ACKLEY

Stonewall, no problem here as I am not the sort of guy who posts here or on the other two forums I participate in to harass or insult anyone and I am not upset with your honest opinions. I will be 59 in about two weeks and am long past the time of life when I "need" to denigrate others, even indirectly, in order to bolster my own self esteem. So, keep up your posts, bud, we ALL have something to learn from each other.

I admit to being a bit too blunt, at times, but I am refering to the gunsmiths mentioned from the perspective of being "top" rather than just competent smiths. Bill Leeper ( dare I drop his name?) has impressed me very much, however, he would be the very first to publicly refute any suggestion that he is a "top" smith; he is a highly intelligent, witty, knowledgable gunsmith/shooter whose skill at his craft is far greater than his humility will allow him to mention. He is not a worldclass gunmaker, but, he can build a serious hunting rifle that does what you need it to do and his wry humour just cracks me up.

I have currently got 33 centerfire rifles, just sold one and many of them are custom or customized. I strongly prefer very plain rifles to the fancy customs that I lusted after when younger as I backpack hunt and hate beating the crap out of a gorgeous wood stock, BUT, I must have absolute perfection in function and therein lies the rub, as we all know.

Overall, I agree with .280 on the way to get a rifle together, I have met Tim and Rod of Corlane and like them, but, I can do my own bedding and just get them to paint for me...or use spray paint. There are a couple of other guys who are good, competent smiths, but, the actual market for "top" gunsmithing here in Canada is tiny and it is very difficult to make a decent wage at gunbuilding.

I have quite a few friends and acquaintances who frequently call me about rifles and we all bemoan the fact that the type of gunsmith quite common in the USA just doesn't exist here in Canada....and, in view of contemporary social trends, that is not likely to change. If, I were younger and more of a gung-ho trophy hunter like .280 or my good friend Chuck or RickF, whom I hope to meet in person, I would damned well take out a loan and buy an Echol's Legend in .338 Win. As it is, I can find the people here at home to do what I cannot do and can fit my stocks myself, well enough to usually shoot m.o.a.; this is about all you can expect from we old farts.

Much of our opinion(s) on this topic also stems from our personal requirements for a rifle and that is going to make our individual desires differ markedly. I want a light, crf, medium bore rifle with flawless function and reasonable accuracy that will take hard use without problem. Someone else may need much greater accuracy, gorgeous wood, engraving or perhaps just a rifle that they can brag about. It's all part of the game, whether your thunderstick is a full house Paul Dressel fullstocked carbine that costs more than many new cars, or, a light mountain rifle built by a number of individual craftsmen that you coordinate yourself. Me, I used to want them all !!!!!

Bill Leeper has a touch of magic when it comes to working metal.He truly can turn the sow's ear into a silk purse.He has done that a three times for me.A fourth,a 8x57 is with him now.

I've never seen Leeper's work but have heard it is top notch.

Rocky Mountain Rifles (aka Corlane Sports) make some beauty lightweight rifles. I've dealt with them on a scope deal and was quite impressed.

I was surprised at the poor review of PGW and their rifles. Actually shocked is more to the point, plus the comment about their "ethics". Please explain. I've known Steve and Ross for a while now and have not seen anything that struck me as less that exemplary in the customer service department. Please kutenay, enlighten us. If there's a reason we shouldn't be dealing with them, I for one would like to know it.

Rick Timmins Alberta Tactical Rifle is a good friend of mine and does very nice work. His rifles tend to lean more to the long range shooting end, but are very fine examples nontheless. Rick is very demandnign of his rifles and refuses to settle. A quality I quite like.

I did NOT make any comment concerning the ethics of PGW, so, lets be very clear on that from the outset. I also only comment on what I have actually seen and the treatment I have received as I do not believe in basing my opinions on hearsay. There are those who choose to attempt to denigrate others in order to appear to be very knowledgable about a given issue, I am not one of them.

I have been in contact with PGW on three occasions and I found them to be rather abrupt and not overly courteous on the phone. This is not my concept of how a business should treat potential customers and I decided not to spend my money with them as a result of this behaviour.

Now, the actual gunsmithing concerned was done by them on a P-64 Mod. 70 that was one of three that Joe Dlask surface ground and trued for me about 15 years ago; Joe's work was meticulous and compared favourably with the top metalsmiths in the USA, whose work I have examined on rifles belonging to buddies afflicted with gunaholism as I am. I sold this to a chap I know, whose name I will not mention as he is not conversant with this thread and he sent it to Spagrud with very precise instructions as to the rifle he wanted built. He is a medical professional used to working with great precision and has many other custom rifles, so, he knows what should result.

The rifle came back, after several thousand dollars expenditure, with various accoutrements that he had specifically stated he did not want, the stock design was not what he requested and the dimensions were wrong. When he removed the metal from the wood, the inletting was terrible and he could not get the rifle to shoot. He sent it back and it still would not function as a top custom rifle should, so, he got another gunsmith to re-work it. This is not the only case like this that people I know and trust have had happen to them, so, my opinion of Spagrud is not very high.

I don't know you and have no idea of your actual experience with custom rifles, so, I can only suggest that you go to one of the big custom rifle shows in the USA and examine the work of some of the masters there, if you have not already done so. This will give you an idea of what can be and is being done and also what should be done for a customer's hard earned bucks. Third rate work and a snotty attitude is NOT acceptable to me and I will not accept this from anyone with whom I deal......and neither should anyone else, IMHO.

Again, the comments concerning ethics were made by Chuck, not me, so it is his prerogative to reply or not. I simply do not consider Ross Spagrud to be a "top" gunsmith, based on what I have seen and I would not have him do any work for me. I do not care which gunsmith anyone chooses, I simply offered my take on the current situation in Canada as I have experienced it; quite honestly, the single finest stockmaker I have EVER seen was the late Russel Fletcher of Nelson, B.C. whom I knew as a young man and he was better than Beisen or Fisher, even to my young, inexperienced eyes circa 1967.

PGW ethics are not a big secret. I know individuals that have fed Spagrud for several months recieving nothing, and I mean nothing, in return. So as I see it, it's more than an ethics issue, they're thieves. Then there are cases of missing parts on completed rifles etc. Plus, Spagrud is a first class dick to deal with.

Chuck

Nobby Uno on Vancouver Island (Comox) has built me guns that were as perfect as can be done. I love his work, plus he's a gentleman to dealk with. He get's my vote.

After reading all the posts carefully I do agree with most every thing said. I remember one Wichita rifle at Guncraft, a lh .223.The metal work was amazing -you did have a extremely hard time to see the joint between action and barrel.The wood was blond with beautiful dark figure in butt and perfect layout.But it was the attention to detail -I looked at the borderless checkering for two hours and didn't find a fault.I think Bishop at the time did the stocks.
It made a far greater impression on me than the three rifles I saw at Expo 67 in the Austrian pavilion .
I know many of the people here have projects that they consider a sucess-show these and what you would do now if different. How did you do it and why?
We have many new products even in Canada in the last ten years.Some actually work.


Glenn

My apologies to kutenay, it was Chuck that I should have been referring to.



Who are these individuals? Have they taken action against Ross and PGW? Again, I would like to know to prevent dealing with anyone who might be dishonest. Are you saying that people have commissioned work from PGW and never received it? Did PGW take someone's money and never deliver? Did these bilked customers take any action? Surely a lawsuit or criminal court action would be taken! Missing parts from actions sound like defective products that would likely result in civil action. Please do tell as I do not wish to buy a rifle missing valuable parts. There must be some records of such incidents. How did such a company win the contract to replace the C3?

Please, more details!

I've told you everything you need to know.

Chuck

HMMM, why do you think someone with such a contract would treat the rest of their insignificant, lowlife, common customers like dirt. The answere seems pretty clear to me.

Chuck

a friend of mine (and I will pm you his contact info if you want it) paid for a timberwolf and was given a delivery date.

After well over a year of being lied to, and told 'no refund, wait for your action", he had a lawyer send a demand letter of sorts, whereupon he got his refund. He is still out of pocket the loss he took on re-selling the McMillan he bought for the Timberwolf, along with the lawyers fees, and a bunch of wasted time.

"Top Gunsmith"

What is required to qualify? Does the "gunsmith" have to make the barrel or use a barrel blank? Does he have to make the action? Are we talking only wood stocks? Obviously he would have to be a superb stockmaker.... that lets out a lot of "gunsmiths". What about engraving? Does he have to be able to do high quality engraving? That lets out 99 percent of them. What about an absolutely superb stockmaker who also engraves but does not machine and fit and chamber the barrel to the action? Is he out of the running?

What is the definition of a "top gunsmith"?

Stonewall, where was "Guncraft" located?
In TO?
I believe that was the name of George Pohl's company.
Cat

THERE IS ONE THING THAT I HAVE TO SAY IN REGARDS TO ALL OF THIS BULLSHIT THAT IS BEING SAID ABOUT GUNSMITHS GOOD OR BAD IN CANADA. I FIND IT SICKENING THAT UP HERE IN CANADA ALL WE EVER DO IS BITCH BITCH BITCH! I HAVE YET TO JOIN A FORUM (I BELIEVE THIS IS A CANADIAN FORUM BY THE LOOKS OF THE THREAD) WHERE THERE IS NOT ONE BIT OF BITCHING ABOUT GUNSMITHS UP HERE IN CANADA. TAKE A LOOK AT BR CENTRAL PEOPLE. THERE IS NO DEGRADING A SMITH OF ANY SORT BY NAME. IT IS JUST SICKENING TO SEE. I SEE ALL THIS PUTTING DOWN AND NO ONE HAS THE DECENCY TO SIGN THERE TRUE NAME TO THE RESPONSES. BUNCH OF COWARDS. I JUST HAD MY FIRST GUN EVER DONE BY A GUNSMITH. THAT SMITH IS DENNIS SORENSEN. I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANY OF HIS WORK OR MET HIM IN PERSON. I JUST WENT ON REFERENCES AND MANY AT THAT. AS A MATTER OF FACT I HAVE NOT YET SEEN THE GUN. IT IS ON ITS WAY BACK AS WE SPEAK. LISTENING TO THE BS FROM ALL THE SLANDERING MAKES IT PRETTY TOUGH FOR SOMEONE NEW IN GETTING A GUN BUILT. I HAVE YET TO HEAR OF ANYONE THAT WAS HAPPY WITH THE SAME GUNSMITH. I HAVE YET TO HEAR OF ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH ONE ANOTHER ABOUT OUR SUPPOSEDLY GREAT CANADIAN BARREL MAKERS. I HAVE HEARD IT ALL WHEN TRYING TO DECIDE WHO WAS GOING TO TOUCH MY GUN. I AM 39 AND THIS IS MY FIRST GUNSMITHED GUN. I AM NOT A KNOW IT ALL OR PRETEND TO BE ONE. THERE IS ONE THING THAT I DO KNOW AND THAT IS IF YOUR GOING TO PUT SOMEONE DOWN PUT UP OR SHUT UP. AND YES I WILL GLADLY SIGN MY NAME. IF YOUR NOT HAP[PY WITH ME I AM IN THE PHONE BOOK. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

CALVIN YANCHYCKI
BRANDON,MANITOBA

Who pissed in your Corn Flakes? The truth sucks sometimes. Deal with it. And what part of my name are you having difficulty discifering. Is it the Chuck or the Nelson.

Chuck

This is a discussion of gunsmiths, not a gripe session of how bad they are.
I have been a member of benchrest central for some time, and yes, I have seen some bad reports on work there, also.
but the commentary is warranted.
I have also discussed things with Dennis Sorrenson, and his reputation precedes him in many circles.
I belive, if you look at the threads, you will find more than a faie assesment of our 'smiths here.

I personnaly would not go Stateside, nopt because it is a bit difficult sometimes, but because I feel that we have more than competant people in Canada.

I have rifles built by Cunningham, Mcphee, Smith, and others, and they are to a weapon super accurate, with no less than 4 with Canadian made barrels.
I don't know what made you so anggry, but maybe step back and look at things from a "half full" attitude rather than "half empty"?
Just an observation.
Oh, and BTW did you have the caps lock on accidently, or were you intentionally yelling at someone?
cat

WELL IF THERE ARE SO MANY UP HERE IN CANADA THAT ARE EDUCATED ENOUGH TO CUT DOWN INDIVIDUALS WHY ARE THEY NOT IN THE BUSINESS? OR IS THIS THERE WAY OF TRYING TO GET THE BUSINESS THAT THEY UNFORTUNATELY DO NOT HAVE? I, LIKE IAMANOLDGOAT WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT THE DEFINITON IS OF A "TOP GUNSMITH"? I THINK IAMANOLDGOAT HAS ASKESD A LOT OF VALID QUESTIONS. ANYONE CARE TO DEFINE TOP GUNSMITH FOR ME. I CAN SAY ONE THING THAT JUDGING A PERSONS CHARACTER USUALLY DOES NOT IDENTIFY A GOOD FROM A BAD GUNSMITH. I BELIEVE ALL TRADES PEOPLE HAVE A GOOD AND BAD DAY IN REGARDS TO CHARACTER. I WILL BE THE FIRST TO ADMIT I WAS NOT A TRADESPERSON THAT A CUSTOMER WANTED TO BE AROUND TODAY. IT WAS 29 CELCIUS WITH ABOUT 90% HUMIDITY TODAY. IF I WERE NOT KNOWN PEOPLE WOULD WONDER WHO PISSED IN MY "CORN FLAKES". IT SUCKS WHEN WE ARE ON THE RECEIVING END OF A BAD DAY BUT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT IN A CIVIL MANNNER IN TRYING TO RECTIFY THE SITUATION. I KNOW THAT A LOT OF UNFORTUNATE SITUATIONS CAN BE RESOLVED QUITE EASILY BUT THIS ALL HANGS ON HOW ONE IS APPROACHED. YOU APPROACH ME LIKE A RAGING LUNATIC I WILL RESPOND LIKE A RAGING LUNATIC. IN ESSENCE A LOT OF THESE UNFORTUNATE EVENTS COULD POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN RESOLVED IN A CIVIL MANNER. THIS IS ALL IN REGARDS TO INDIVIDUALS HAVING SUBSTANARD QUALITY FROM A SO CALLED TOP GUNSMITH.

CALVIN YANCHYCKI
BRANDON, MANITOBA

Hello Guys and Gals,

I am new to these forums and bumped across this topic in search of a canadian gunsmith, a little about myself.
I am from Saskatchewan, Canada and i am an avid big game hunter. I shoot a 270 and have just begun bowhunting as well to catch the early season bucks.

Anyhow back on topic..i am reading alot about these gunsmiths and your opinions but noone is leaving contact information for these gunsmiths, names are ok but not what i need.

Cool forums so far but only time will tell.

Thanks

CATINTHEHAT THAT IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO FIND OUT. YOU SAY IT IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT SMITHS BUT I HAVE SEEN A LOT OF DEGRADING COMMENTS. LIKE I SAID EARLIER THIS HAS BEEN MY FIRST CUSTOM JOB. WHO AM I SUPPOSED TO TRUST WHEN IT COMES TIME TO GETTING THE WORK DONE? I DID SOME RESEARCH AND GAVE SOMEONE A TRY. THIS SOMEONE NOW APPEARS TO BE SOMEONE THAT A FEW PEOPLE FEEL HE IS NOT WORTHY. YET I HAVE HEARD MORE GOOD THAN BAD. HE HAS BEEN VERY ACCOMODATING AND I FEEL HAS GONE THE EXTRA MILE TO FULFILL MY WISHES. IF YOU HAVE HAD SOME BAD
SITUATIONS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO E-MAIL ME PRIVATELY SO I MAY HAVE A CHANCE TO POSSIBLY SEE WHAT YOU MEAN.

You might want to try approaching those of us on this forum who have come to know each other over a considerable period of time and who respect each other's opinions with just a tad more courtesy. You are new to this forum and obviously have very little comprehension of the etiquette that is practiced here, as your loud, capitalized ranting demonstrates.

You now have ordered your first custom rifle, quite frankly, I have been at this for longer than you have been alive, so, may I politely suggest that you pipe down, grow up and behave yourself. There are men here who have, as I do, very sound reasons for not publishing their full names/addresses and these reasons are none of your bloody business.

You sound like one of the CGN ranters who thinks that you will impress someone by aggressive yelling; I should tell you that this forum is not quite the same as CGN and your tactics do you no credit, so, calm down and try to learn something.

Potlicker,Corlane Sports,Dawson Creek B.C. And take the Caps Off.

Kutenay, not to worry about me being one of those CGNr's who is trying to impress by ranting and raving. I have also voiced my concerns there as well in regards to some of the threads that I have seen there and have not been to impressed with. Not to fret, I get the same responses there. But because we live in a free North America were are able to all voice our opinions. I will be the first to admit that I will never know as much as you have forgotten or any other person in the shooting industry. Just as you will never know about my trade. If you are true to what you say. I will leave it at that. But I am still waiting for the answer to the question of what makes a "Top Gunsmith"? How am I to know who to trust and not trust? If somone can give me a list of the winners of the Canadian BR champions over the years and who smithed there guns and what the components were, I might have a clue as who I might be able to trust.


Calvin Yanchycki
Brandon, Manitoba

Let's not throw [bleep] at each other too much here. I've not had bad experience with PGW but admittedly I have not ordered a rifle from them. They've treated me well whenever I've dealt with them.

Let's not hold ourselves too high and mighty in comparison to other boards on the internet. I can't see how this board is any better than CGN, so let's not belittle others just to make ourselves feel important.

Potlicker, please take off your caps lock. It's considered shouting and is quite rude. And if you're shouting, please stop. No one wants to be shouted at and, I suspect, it will not be tolerated.

Now back on topic... are there any good Canadian stockmakers? I'm curious about walnut stocks.

Potlicker

I think perhaps you have given one mans opinion about one gunsmith too much importance. After reading all the posts I see kutenay was the only person saying he was not impressed with Sorenson .... and reading carefully you can tell there are very few gunsmiths who impress him... and after reading all his posts I have the feeling he is very opinionated. That's okay too... everyone has the right to their opinion.

Opinions are a bit like a**holes - everyone has one.

Well, this is where this thread becomes a waste of time as the new members demonstrate their expertise.....

Potlicker,
I have work done by both Ron Smith and Bevan King. I cannot complain about the quality or service of either. In fact, I recently took possession of a King barrel which was built and tapered as per my request and arrived literally within days.

If you frequent this forum any length of time you will notice several gunsmiths who are almost always respected. Other forums you may wish to check out are CanadianGunNutz, and gunshop.com if you are into shotguns. With a bit of research you can learn a lot of info about guns, gunsmiths, reputations, and which opinions should be valued.

Because, unless you spend a lot of time posting one pone particular web site, you have no idea what you're talking about, right? And if you have 5000 posts on Shotgun World and come here does your knowledge base revert to zero with your post count?

Funny how, for some people, post count seems to equal experience in the shooting and firearms community. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think he means at least two people on this thread don't know jack, yet challenge statements made by others who obviously have some experience.

By your response, I guess it's easy to tell which group you align yourself with...

I do not have to justify my opinions or detail my personal experience to you or anyone else; you have already falsely accused me of making comments that I did not make on this thread, so, you might want to reconsider your remarks, or, simply confine them to the issue at hand.

As to attempts to make oneself feel important, that is an all too commonplace situation with many of your colleagues, especially those just out from Regina, so, maybe you are somewhat confused with respect to the difference between honest opinion based on real experience and ad hominem bullschitt of the sort you just posted. In any case, I have better things to do than waste time with this sort of nonsense.

BTW, why don't you give Dave Mathiesen a quick call and ask him about my level of actual experience with rifles?

What's with you? The original posting in this thread asked "who you think qualifies in the TOP 5."

You choose not to state who might qualify, but rather make negative comments about various people. These comments were not asked for. What started out as a decent thread is gone.

I notice you did the same type of negative posting on the thread about Top Gunsmiths in the USA.

And you choose not to answer my question about defining the qualifications of "Top Gunsmith".

Talk about a waste of time!

Are you being deliberately obtuse or simply trying to stir up trouble? I very carefully stated what I have seen here with a number of gunsmiths, yet, you ignore this and keep trying to instigate an unpleasant exchange....maybe you are a troll?

What is with me, is that I posted honest opinions based on actual hands-on experience with the rifles/makers that I refered to; I did NOT make any negative remarks about anyone's character, simply commented on gunmaking skills as shown by results. But, you obviously know so much more than I do, so, maybe you could tell me exactly what the major obvious differences between the Dakota 76 and the P-64 Mod. 70 actions are as you must own examples of these??? How about what one notices in a Champlin when the trigger adjustment is not correctly set, this is, as you surely know, a real easy thing to spot.

If, you want to get into very precise, technical detail on "top" gunsmithing, I'm your man, so, correctly answer these questions and then we can go from here. What, btw, is a "swamped" barrel and why would a custom 'smith use this???

If, you want to get into very precise, technical detail on "top" gunsmithing, I'm you man, so, correctly answer these questions and then we can go from here. What, btw, is a "swamped" barrel and why would a custom 'smith use this???

I don't know what btw is.

"swamped barrel" ...
I guess I would describe it as a barrel diameter larger at the muzzle and I guess a custom smith would do that if his customer wanted it. He may want it done for better balance.

But I don't really care if you answer anything. You are rather boring.

I would like to hear from others though.

Mr. Catnthehat Guncraft -Calgary -Alberta many years ago. About the only thing on BR.com that gets hammered regulary is Leupold and......
Glenn

OOPS! Gunco was his conpany, likely!
I remember Guncraft now.

IMHO the "top 5 " alla round gunsmiths would likely not be buildiing comp rifles of any kind, as the level of metalwork needed to win a match is incredible, but the stockwork is in a different category.
I am sure Kutenay's idea of a well made stock (and mine ) is quite different from a BR looney's idea of perfect!

Mcphee and rangesports unlimited build top notch DCRA/Palma rifles, and Ron Smith is known as a shuetzen rifle builder and BPCR guy.
Still otheers do wonderous work on service rifles.
In the end however, I think you will find that most are specializing in one type of competition rifle and do not do too much old time custom building in wood and fancy engraving, etc.

But that is just my opinion and may not be the same as others.
I do know that when I ask Paul at rangesports to put together a rifle that will get the job done for me at 1,000 meters plus, he delivers the goods with prompt service.....

Nuff said....
Cat

Cat, I have had quite a number of pleasant exchanges of views on this forum with you during the past couple of years, so, I am going to consider your misspelling of my "handle" to be a mistake, rather then a deliberate insult. If, this is the case, perhaps you would edit your post?

Goat, you are wrong concerning what a "swamped" barrel is, just as I expected you would be; however, since I bore you, due no doubt to your extraordinary knowledge of gunsmithing, let's just ignore one another. This forum is much different than CGN and is a gathering place where there are many very knowledgable folks whose posts we can all learn from....as my previous posts on this thread indicated. I have already given examples of who/what I consider to be "top' gunsmithing and have no further inclination to pursue this as I hesitate to bore a real expert.

BTW=by the way.

ok ok enough of the bickering guys, show some respect and courtesy. Since we are supposed to be talking about the top canadian gunsmiths how about you guys give some real useful information like their contact information, what are some addresses and phone numbers. this post is going nowhere. lol

Thanks

Aw come on, what's a good gungabfest without a little verbal asskicking??? But, you are right, too many valuable threads on gun forums do turn into schittslinging contests, so, I will offer some further info.

The best place that I know of to obtain contact info. concerning Canadian gunsmiths is "Access to Firearms" where quite a number of them advertise. Word of mouth ( in person) is also a sound source of advice, but, it will be frequently based on one person's opinion and their desires regarding a given rifle or type thereof; this is essentially what is happening on this thread. These forums are really nothing other than opinion and some people have more experience than others, but, none of us are infallible, me included.

In Canada, at present, I would pick the following guys as the "top" five, for anyone interested. They are Martini & Hagn, Bill Leeper, Mick McPhee and probably Bill Warkentin, BUT, my criteria may well be different than that of others, as Cat indicated today and I did some days ago.

Even these guys produce some rifles that are obviously better than others, as every custom producer of whatever does and the good ones will admit. The legendary Al Biesen of Spokane, Wa, USA, has quite openly admitted this and mentioned that many of the younger, upcoming gunmakers are now doing work much superior to that he did some 40-50 years ago when in his prime.....and he also states that this is the way it should be as the art advances based on smith's learning from each other.

Again, I think that the custom rifle craft in Canada is largely a dying trade/art as demographics, social mores and economic opportunities have changed this country to a degree that we could have hardly imagined in the '60s when I got into this obsession. I do not expect to ever see a gunsmithing community in Canada that is equal to the ACGA in the USA, although I would love to be proven wrong.

I said, "I guess I would describe it as a barrel diameter larger at the muzzle and I guess a custom smith would do that if his customer wanted it. He may want it done for better balance."

According to George Shumway:
Tapered-and-flared barrels or swamped barrels are largest at the breech, and taper to a minimum diameter 6 to 10 inches from the muzzle, then flare out somewhat to the muzzle . Barrels of this type not only balance the best in a rifle but they also look the best. German flintlock rifles of the 18th century almost always had barrels of this type. The flare or the enlargement at the muzzle is aesthetically pleasing, it provides a higher base for the front sight than a straight tapered barrel would provide and it adds a little mass at the end of the barrel, which is an aid in shooting.
(Recreating the American Longrifle 1970 - by George Shumway )

Amusing post fellas, I have learned a lot in the last few pages <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I think we all have our own ideas regarding what constitutes a "Gunsmith".

While my fibreglass/stainless mtn rifles differ greatly from the wood stocked, deeply rich blued customs Kutenay so loves, I think our ideas of workmanship and what constitutes good "gunsmithing" are similar.

There are a Canadian "smiths" that will NEVER see one of my rifles due to their shoddy workmanship.

There are a few Canadian "smiths" that will not get my business because I refuse to wait 2 years to get my rifle built.

I think where people often fail in having a custom rifle built is in the planning stage. Many want to just hand over a blank cheque and pick up a rifle when it is done, all by one smith.

Not too many single mechanics will rebuild tranny's, starters, do the body work, install the stereo, mount/balance the tires, and test drive your 66 mustang for you.

Similarily, I don't expect any single "smith" to build my barrel, true my action, install the tube, do PERFECT stockwork, bed/paint it, and then skeletonize the action, mount the scope and send me a sighted in rifle with tailored handloads.

My approach involves using specialized folks to do what they do best, and source out what they don't do "best" to those who can.

Undboutedly, when I want a perfect tube put on stright, with action work that can't be topped.... my rifles go to Ted Gaillard (Gaillard Precision).

He has twisted up 3 7-08AI lightweights in the last few years for me and a pard that are absolutely phenominal!

I've got a few King barrels that are scary accurate as well.

The rest is subjective (stockwork, blueing....)...... get it done where ya like, it depends on your level of "Analness".

Others that would get my business in a heartbeat:

-Mic McPhee
-Knobby Uno
-Ron Smith
-Bevan King
-Rob McLennan
-Rembo

Notice a trend? 3 of the 5 I just mentioned and Ted Gaillard........ All build their own barrels. My theory is that if you can put a straight hole in a 26" piece of tube, you have the skills to easily twist a tube on my action!!!! Hasn't let me down yet.

Canada has an unbelievable amount of talent w/regards to the rifle craft if one knows where to look and how to go about it. Sure names like Echols et al are not running abound, but EVERY custom I own spots a Canadian made tube twisted up by a Canadian "Smith", and I am damn impressed with the lot, and all the synthetic stocks are of Canuk Manufacture as well.

We have it good, and don't forget it.......

Having said that, there are a few morons that claim to be "Gunsmiths", and I will gladly let anybody know of them in a PM. I'd hazard a guess that our friends to the south have a few of these so called "smiths" as well.... I'm sure a Charlie Sisk and Mickey Coleman don't reside on every street corner in the USA.

NOW LET US ALL GET ALONG AND TAKE OFF THE CAPS LOCK <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

280_ACKLEY

I guess my next response would be that if it is turning into a dying breed up here in Canada, is there not anyone that anyone is aware of in Canada that has approached these top smiths wanting to learn the trade? I hear that it is not something that one could make a living off of but if one became that good why couldn't he or she? I have heard that Bill Leeper is not taking on any more at this present time as he is so backlogged. I would hope that his entire time is devoted to making guns if he is that busy. I know that if I could do it over, the way that I would have gone was machinist so I could learn the ins and outs of working with metal so that one day I could turn out some guns that everyone would want. I am beginning to see that not one person can do it all but it takes a team in reality to turn out a fine piece. If one could do the whole gammut I would say that the person doing the work is one hell of an artist at his trade. I guess then that person could be labelled a top gunsmith in Canada, he can do it all from start to finish. He would require the knowledge of working with metal, wood, and plastics something that could take an undetermined amount of time. My feelings are in general that it is a team effort to turn out a remarkable product.


Calvin

To the question of top gunsmith, that needs to first be clarified by what considers a top notch rifle. For bolt action rifles, there seem to be two main catagories of rifles being built these days. The more modern catagory is what I'll call the tactical rifle, this is likely a Rem 700 action that has been blueprinted, ie squared and trued, and a barrel is fit to it, then it is bedded into a synthetic stock. The metal finish is likely some sort of industrial finish, and the trigger is maybe swapped out with a Jewel or the like. Not to denegrate the folks making those sort of rifles, but they really don't require a true gunsmith to craft, they are more the work of a machinist/mechanic, ie someone that dials in the lathe and bolts on swaps out parts.

The other type of rifle is the classic hunting rifle, typically built on a mauser 98 or Win model 70, wood stocked, nicely blued and perhaps a bit of fiddling on the magazine/feed rails. This requires not only the machinist to fit the barrel to the action, but also a true gunsmith for hand fitting of metal to metal, and metal to wood. There are both darn few of such folks capable of such work as well as customers that appreciate what it takes to do such work. I'd venture to say while many of those building fine classic hunting rifles are also duly capable of making highly accurate tactical/target guns, the reverse is not true.

My two cents.

That statement is worth its weight in gold if every letter in it weighed a pound. I'll take it for the 2 pennies, and call it money well spent.

Chuck

The comment concerning a "swamped" barrel was inaccurate in that it simply stated that such a barrel was ...larger at the muzzle...and that is true of a number of barrel configurations while NOT being always true of swamped barrels. I do wonder why the poster did not simply quote his source in his initial post directed at me, perhaps he was not so sure of his "facts" as he wants to appear?

A "swamped" barrel is one in which the contour of said barrel diminishes in a very slight elliptical form from a set point on the barrel reinforce/chamber area to a minimal diameter near to or usually slightly forward of the barrel mid-point. This is done for three major reasons, the first of which is to give a superior sight picture with irons sights or on a sxs shotgun with a "swamped" rib, the second is to lower over-all weight as in a muzzle loader and the third is to determine balance.

Before I started using synthetic stocks in 1985 and learned to do my own bedding, with advice from Noburo Uno, Tibor Wrabec and a couple of other Vancouver smiths who have done a lot of work for me; I used to use primarily wood stocked rifles and I wanted them as light as possible because we did not have quads or horses and packed our game out on Trapper Nelson torture racks. There were firms in the USA who made light rifles with swamped barrels as they felt that such profiles would give greater accuracy, the most well known of these was Taylor & Robbins and this was fairly commonplace until the age of plastics took over.

Certain of my posts on this thread refer to the detailed micro-precision that is fundamental to good gunsmithing and being able to tell a person who questions one about the exact details of a given action of rifle type without first refering to a book is, IMO, an indication that the poster doing so actually knows whereof he speaks. Those who substitute ad hominem comments for technically correct commentary simply demonstrate that they are not as knowledgable as they want others to believe and thus I question their ability to really tell the good smithing from the poor.

Also, my comment re: Dennis Sorenson was based on my three conversations with him concerning the action work I wanted done on a P-14, some Mauser 98 modifications and possible stockwork. He informed me that he could not do the work I wanted and really prefered working on Remington 700 actions, as does Nobby Uno. Fine, but, a "topnotch" riflesmith should be able to perform mods. on a Mauser 98, it is the basis for almost all of the bolt guns we use today. My idea of top workmanship in rifles is based on Hagn's singleshots and custom bolt rifles from major US makers; no insult to Sorensen, but, the work of his that I have seen is not quite in that class, hence, my stated opinion.

So sorry Sir!
Posting without my "readers" on again!
Swamped barrels hardly are the crteria of modern centerfire rifles, are they?
If we were tslking about BP muzzle loaders maybe....
Cat

For one to be considered a top notch smith must he have to work on all makes and models of actions? I feel it is not so. People have the ability to specialize in whatever field they want. Because one chooses one type over another may not make him a bad smith. It is ones perogative. One chooses such as it is there preference. Just as I will probably never be seen behind the wheel of a Chevy. If a probably talked to the wrong person they would think I am nuts that I prefer a wood stock over synthetic. I remember one of the first things that was told to me when I was displeased with my Rem 700 22-250 " throw that wood stock out and get a HS Precision" Would it have made a huge difference? Possibly but I highly doubt it. It is far cheaper to get it bedded than buy a stock then get it bedded. The bottom line is putting together a gun is like building a car. Some prefer these parts and others prefer those parts. What we need to do as individuals is to seek out who we feel is going to do what we want to get the end result we want. I think 99% of people would rather go to a gunsmith that prefers working on a action that they like than just saying yes I will do it but it is not my choice to work on. When will it be ready? not sure....... I think that is what may be going on out there. Biting off more than one can chew. We have to remember what we are looking for. A true benchrest gun versus a accurized action, a custom built hunting rifle versus a accurised hunting rifle, versus a custom hunting rifle with engraved stock and metal. There are different aspects to each but the one thing that is the same for all. If the smith cannot cut a chamber or crown it ain't going to shoot worth.................. What good is a couple or more thousand dollar gun if it cannot shoot? Not much in my books. You sell it to the poor sucker 1000 miles away.


Calvin

Well, I do annd don't agree with both Cat and Pot, in the first instance, the use of swamped barrels is still very much a part of contemporary gunmaking, as in very high end shotguns and to a lesser extent, in quite a number of c.f. and r.f. rifles. The whole point of this technique is that it be completely unobtrusive, it is a cosmetic adaptation to a certain gunsmithing challenge....to see what I mean, try to find older gunwritings by Warren Page, former gunguru of Field & Stream. A smith can attain the same balance, weight and overall feel with a number of barrel contouring methods, but, "swamping" simply looks better to most people.

I honestly think that a topnotch gunsmith should be able to do first rate work on pretty much any gun, especially action types as closely related as Rem. 700 and Mauser 98 rifles. IF, one smith chooses to specialize, that is entirely different, but, a certain level of overall knowledge and competence is fundamental to this issue, IMHO. I can and have done very sound bedding which allows my well-used rifles to shoot very well, but, I have never and would not try to install a barrel.

Again, we do have different needs and what I find absolutely essential is not what another shooter may deem equally important, however, really fine gunmaking simply stands out and is very obvious to the beholder....take a look at an English or Belgian shotgun, even a boxlock, made from about 1880 to 1939 and you can just see the quality....that's gunmaking, to me.

The criteria for a Gunsmith varies considerably. That is obvious. I have some of my own and am pretty opinionated about it.

I use rifles to hunt with so they must meet the demands associated with this qualifier. It must function properly, point where you aim, and group well enough with hunting bullets to hit game at any reasonable hunting distance. Wood stocks are nice and one that is properly done will function just fine for most hunting purposes. Myself, I prefer synthetic handles. Engraving has no place on my rifles and you will look long and hard to find a "complete" gunsmith that is any good at it.

I've had more rifles that have come from gunsmiths that didn't meet this criteria than those that did which is unfortunate. Because of this I've a rather jaded view of a lot of gun plumbers. For my money and wants, Bill Leeper is the best in this Country. There is a reason he's so backlogged, and what he does with his time is his business.

The remainder of my rifles, if politics allow, will be built by D'Arcy Echols. He is, in my mind, the best complete riflebuilder in North America. Quite possibly the world. He is an artisin in both wood and metal and has built rifles on 700's, 70's, 98's, Dakota's, Hagn single shots, Modern Mausers............... I've seen examples of most of these, and there isn't any room for wanting. He build's the complete rifle excepting the barrel and the finished rifle is 110% when the customer takes possession. This includes barrel break in, initial load development, scope mounting etc.......... You pay for it, but in my eyes it's worth it. Especially considering it's built to last beyond my lifetime.

Chuck

Interestingly enough, D'Arcy Echols is the first guy I would choose to build my dream rifle and, after about 100 good to outstanding big game rifles owned during the past 40+ years, I base my opinion on some experience. If, I were younger, I would get an Echol's rifle if I had to scrub toilets to afford it....now, THAT is serious gunaholism!

BTW, Steve Markin can and has built entire rifles and engraved them himself quite nicely, but, the problem .280 mentioned exists here as these guys take huge time to do your gun. I will be having Ted Gaillard and Bevan King do my next two or three re-barreling jobs, then, I will have enough(?) rifles.

I realize Kutenay and Chuck what a top notch smith means to you guys. I now nothing of D'arcy Echols. But it is all about what you want in the gun. I also do not know or have never heard of Martini or Hagn. The picture that I am beginning to see of them is that they are more like artists. Ones who can work with metal and wood as well as carving into both mediums. If I could afford one it would probably hang on the wall and never see the light of day. I could not see myself subjecting a work of art, if I am correct, to the elements. If money was never an object I guess we would never think twice. I have a Browning Gold 12 gauge which I have a hard time taking out in the field for a stubble shoot. What is it worth? Not a lot compared to the latter. Would they be the ones to build a Benchrest Gun? I think not. They should be able to but it is a whole different ball game when it comes to Benchrest. My idea of a top notch gun is exactly what Speedy, Lester Bruno, Jackie Schmidt, or Gary O may shoot. The least amount of lines possible. I have never been into the old school stuff and may never be. Those are guns they shoot damn near perfect at 200 yards. But I think I have had my say and we will never be able to change ones minds on this subject just as the Conservatives are sorry they lost Belinda!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Any way good shooting and good luck with whatever life brings your way.


Calvin

Calvin, I don't think you do.



I don't know how you got that from my post?

Chuck

Best to you too, Pot, if we all consistently agreed on or wanted the same guns, firearms evolution would still be in the matchlock stage.....some days my shooting makes me think that mine still is!

I've just recieved a hunting rifle built by Bill Leeper, and it may be one of his last for some time, as he has indicated that he has more work than he knows what to do with it.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

My desires around rifles are similar and different to many of the posters here.

I am primarily a hunter, and I want to have a rifle that is accurate, easy to maintain in the field (and that means a good synthetic stock and stainless to me. Yes, I know that millions of hunters have used wood/blue rifles for years), somewhat ligth of weight, and- above all else- I want the rifle to FUNCTION.

I want it to feed properly, to extract properly, and go BANG when the trigger is squeezed!

I wanted ONE rifle that I could hunt with for years, rather than bounce around between a bunch of guns that were "specialized" or were just factory rifles that always seemed close- but not quite- perfect for ME.

I settled on a 300WSM, Stainless Mdl 70 action, Smith stainless barrel, and a Bansner stock.

I have owned alot of rifles, (not as many as Kutenay <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> }but enough to know what I like.

I decided that a good 300 woudl be the best "all purpose" gun for NA. I have owned 300WM's before, and if I had a 300WM action at the time, I would have happily had that customized. However, I think the WSM's a re cool, so I went wiht it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I will still use my 375 H&H for bears, especially grizzlies, but for averyhting else, from mountain goats to low swamp moose, the 300WSM will do it.

I could not be happier with the rifle, so far. It is an excellent piece of hard hunting hardware.

While I appreciate VERY GOOD wood stocks, they don't have much place for me. I'm not interested. I prefer the looks of stainless andfiberglass over them, anyway. That's why we have chocoate, vanilla, strawberry and rocky road ice cream... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I cannot think of a better choice. Leeper took a LONG time wiht my rifle, but not all of that was his doing- We waited about 5 months for the stock, after al the action and barrel work was done.

I supose it would be a big deal if I had no other guns, but I went hunting last fall with my very capable semi-custom 7RM, and for bears with my semi-cusom 375 this spring. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I now own 3 full cusotm rifles, including one by Gaillard, (a varmiter) and I can't remember the other gunsmith (both bought used)

The Gaillard is an extremely accurate rifle.

For my purposes, this Leeper rifle is my favorite.

I have had Dennis Sorensen do a small bit of work for me, and I was completely satisfied, it was just a small job on my Brno 602, which took aboiut 8 days form the time I shipped it to the time it was returned, and cost abotu $40. I have no other expereince, but he seemed liek a nice guy.

Teh only real experience I have had with PGW is using a PGW action of a buddy, He build his own super accurate rifles and was one of the top shooters I have ever seen.

It was extremely accurate rifle (.338 Lapua) and he felt it was an excellent action. He knows far more about precision rifles than I do, so that's all I have to say. I have no idea how his deaings with PGW were, but I think they were fine, since he knows them, as far as I know...

Leeper is a hell of a nice guy, wiht an excellent sense of humour, as well! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


I have pics, I'll post them when I get to my high speed conection! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Gatehouse can be a little slow typing, so here is a sneak peek at his fine Canadian Firearm. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2126507470&idx=65[/img]

Hmmm

Why didn't hat work?

You have to right click on the image itself, go to properties and pick the web address the image is on.

Kute, as a Manhattanite I certainly don't have a dog in the Canadian gunsmith discussion [except that (1) there are still some Elwood Epps High Wall varmint rifles in upstate New York, and well thought of they are too, (2) I have a Savage 99C with an Epps barrel in .257 Roberts] but I noted your remarks on swamped barrels. I am familiar with them on Jaeger FL rifles but you seem to say they are used on modern contemporary custom breechloaders. I own a fair number of 20th C customs and have looked probably at thousands at big and small gun shows and I don't recall seeing a barrel that tapered and then got thick again towards the muzzle, whether round or octagon. Something like gunbroker 33701283 has a fat muzzle but I wouldn't call it swamped.

Simple brevity.

On the other hand your replies are verbose. It makes you appear to be full of yourself.

I don't know why "hat" didn't work.
You better get somebody with skinnier fingers to type for you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here is another view.
Seeing as how Gatehouse has to type with those sausages he calls fingers, I will help him out.
Of course this means I better not show up in Whistler looking for a beer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

No, I am not stating that contemporary muzzleloaders are using swamped barrels, I am not a muzzleloader fan and spend very little time even looking at them; the barrel contour to which I refer was quite common during the Page-O'Connor era and I have seen references to it's recent use bu smiths who still build very light wood-blue rifles for those who respect craftsmanship rather than parts blending. I remember Epps, dealt with him as a young lad and have handled a couple of his rifles, ah, the good old days..............

Well, i knew some of you guys would get around to positng my pics for me...:)

I would like a pair of rifles built just like that, plus good irons, in .280 Rem. and .338 Win. Mag. In fact, I would like that very rifle!!! Good taste, Gate, I prefer irons as well, being an old fart, but that gem is as close to practical perfection as one is likely to get from ANY smith.

I just don't get it. Why would I waste Dave's time to check on your credentials when I really do not care what they might be? As a man running a gun shop on Fraser Street I think he has better things to do with his time than vouch for you. I know he doesn't need me pestering him.

And I'd thank you to keep you "paint the force with the same brush" opinions to yourself. I don't care to hear them and I doubt anyone else wants to watch you make veiled personal attacks at me or the RCMP.

And contrary to what you might choose to believe, not every post I make is directed to you.

B.U.M. so far you haven't contributed a single thing as it relates to the topic of this thread. Yet you belittle and undermine those that have? (the reason Kutenay has seen the need to defend himself) Why don't you tell us what you know as far as Canadian Gunsmiths are concerned instead of telling the rest of us that we haven't got a friggin clue.


Pot, Kettle, Black.

Chuck

I leave town for a few days and this thread goes in the toilet... The anonymous interent makes it soo easy to fling the dung without the requirement of actually contributing to a topic. Play nice, boys. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I notice that Leeper has been the recipient of some compliments so back-handed as to be transparent, so I will offer this. If all I want is a great barrel threaded straight into a trued M700 action, then bedded properly into a synthetic stock, there are a handful of smiths in Canada who can do that much faster than him.

If however, I want a screaming accurate, benchrest competitive quality rifle, or a chrome / walnut beauty, he can produce great work in both disciplines. And there is a reason I can live with a rifle of mine sitting in his shop for a long time until he gets it back to me...it is worth the wait.

RIck

I hope you are not referring to my comment that the rifle took a long time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I knew it was going to take some time long before I sent my rifle off to Bill. And, like you, I was completely fine with having to wait a little while longer for top notch work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Once again, I could not be happier with my rifle. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sorry Clarke, no not you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

PM on the way a bit later.

Where does Bill Leeper live - anyone have his number?

Leeper lives in ELko.

bsleeper@look.ca

The truth of the matter is that there may well be no one gunsmith who is the "best" in Canada or anywhere else for that matter. Of those who are well regarded, all will have produced some very good work. All will have given the best service they could and all will have usually satisisfied their customers. I think it is safe to say that all will have, at some time, made a mistake, All will have occasionally given less than perfect service and all may have occasionally dropped the ball on a given job. Some may be very good gunsmiths and very poor businessmen. Some may be good at both. Some may be great at customer relations and some may have a personality which is a hinderance at best. The fact is, gunsmiths are just people!
I am certainly not Canada's best gunsmith or gunmaker. What I am is a competent tradesman who is truly grateful for the patience and tolerance shown by many customers!
I think the best craftsman in the gunsmithing trade in Canada right now is Martin Hagn. He has abilities and experience which is hard to imagine. On top of that, he is a prttey good designer as well. That his rifles are so Germanic is beside the point. His talent is impressive to me. His political beliefs may be a bit right of extreme and he may be a bit set in his ways (he IS German!) but he is darn sure good.
His partner, Ralph Martini is also a very good gunsmith and is getting better and better as time goes on. He shows me examples of work from time to time and he hasn't showed me anything I would not have been happy to have produced. I count Ralph and his wife as friends and they are good people.
I have known a few of the other gunsmiths mentioned quite well and for quite a long time.
Dennis Sorenson installed barrels for my Dad! This is not to say that Dennis is a lot older than I ( though he is!). Dennis is a very knowledgable and experienced gunsmith. Like any good 'smith Dennis' techniques and abilities have evolved and improved over the years.
Nobby Uno. I used to shoot BR with Nobby and he was always one of my favorite competitors. If I was shooting as well or better than Nobby, I was pretty happy with life. If I was producing work as good as Nobby's, I was happier yet. The one thing that kind of pisses me off about Nobby is just this; He doesn't seem to age! I swear he looks the same as he did 25 years ago.
I, on the other hand, have aged plenty and people often say things to me like, "Say, didn't you used to have dark hair? In fact, didn't you at least have hair? And a waistline?" My response probably does little to enhance my customer base!
Mick McPhee. Before he was a gunsmith or a barrelmaker, Mick did things to guns which were to be admired. He did some absolutely amazing work with tools which should have been inadequate for the job. Mick is another guy I have always liked and admired.
There are a whole bunch of others, some of whom I know and some of whom I don't but all of whom deserve recognition. Ted Gaillard, Ron Smith, Rob MacLennan, Vic Swindlehurst, Bevin King, Carey Stricker, David Henry and a host of others.
Ther are also some who are no longer with us or at least no longer active in the field. Guys like Al Pederson, Art Bourne, Don Robinson, Sam Elliott, Elwood Epps and more. These guys, along with their American contemporaries, influenced and inspired many of today's 'smiths.
Ultimately, the customer is often as important as the gunsmith. The customer's requirements and his willingness to work with the gunsmith can greatly influence the outcome of the job. Customers give the gunsmith the opportunity to gain experience and to get some feedback on his performance. On top of this, they buy his groceries!
I wish I could make rifles for everyone and that all would be thrilled to have them. Since this isn't going to happen though, I'm glad there are so many good, qualified, people out there that every one at least has a chance of getting what they desire.GD

Hagn's certainly right of extreme, would you change your name to Adolf?

His actual name from birth is Adolph Martin Hagn, what is wrong with that? Maybe it should be Chung Singh Multiculter????

If his nazi belief's were known to Imigration Canada when he got off the boat, he would have never got in. Hopefully they deport him real quick, and his Canadian version of Eva Braun, Kutenay( the closet chinaman?)

You really know nothing about what you are saying.
Were you aware that thee great benmchrest pioneer and opics maker John Unertl was German?

Heritage means nothing, a man's character means everything.
Just because a person may be of some race, creed or colour is no reason to paint him with a big brush...
Cat

The ignorance of this poster is about what one might expect from a troll who does not post his area of residence and labels a world famous gunmaker such as Adolf Hagn as a "Nazi"; I think that such bullschitt is best ignored.

This is my fault for having made an offhand reference to Martin Hagn's political beliefs. Whether he is or is not a Nazi has no real bearing upon the subject at hand. He is a gunsmith and a damn good one. I know a good number of people whose political or religious beliefs are, to me, questionable. Nonetheless, they are people who have my respect for other aspects of their being. I even feel grudging respect for some Liberals and one friend, otherwise normal in all respects, is an NDP supporter!
My point is, the subject is Canadian gunsmiths and their gunsmithing skills and perhaps, their customer relations. I was wrong to have brought up anything else. GD

The last time I was in Martin's shop and office I saw a change of name document rearranging his name to Martin Adolph Hagn. Whether or not this was an application or final document I can't recall. Regardless , he is a very fine and inventive gunmaker. I'd love to have one of his single shots, completed by him.

Ralf Martini is an exceptional machinist and can do custom work with the best of them. I am not aware of ever seeing any stock work by his hands and perhaps he doesn't do any.

I believe I probably saw the same Dakota bolt rifle that Kutenay has referred to. The choice of wood was not exceptional but the inletting was very high quality and the finish and checkering were quite competent.

Sometimes we tend to forget that not every customer has the money to request wood of the highest quality, or, the most elaborate checkering, and has to settle for a lesser grade and be satisfied with the workmanship. That is the purchasers option and does not necessarily reflect on the maker.

I heard I got slammed over on this site. After reading all the posts I don't feel so bad. I have never classified myself in the same ballpark as kutenay stated he prefers... "My idea of top workmanship in rifles is based on Hagn's singleshots and custom bolt rifles from major US makers."

I do remember talking to you kutenay but I don't remember your name... possibly Dave ? I believe I told you I don't do the kind of work you want. At one time I did custom stocks and metal work but you were talking about Weber and Hagn and others who are extremely talented. I believe I said I stopped doing custom work like that 15 years ago and that I never did work as fine as those smiths at any rate.

For the last 15 years I mostly do quality rebarreling on factory actions and using fiberglass stocks from McMillan and Brown Precision and a bit of "Benchrest Gunsmithing".

Sam Elliott was mentioned by Bill Leeper. I thought I would post a few pictures of a rifle Sam built about 1970. It is based on a 1952 Brno. He replaced the bolt handle and made a fantastic stock from an old French Walnut blank he had for many years. Sam was the finest craftsman I knew personally. He passed away August 27, 1994.

Enjoy the pictures. Click on the links below.

http://www3.telus.net/drswebspace/Brno/Brno1.JPG
http://www3.telus.net/drswebspace/Brno/Brno2.JPG
http://www3.telus.net/drswebspace/Brno/Brno3.JPG
http://www3.telus.net/drswebspace/Brno/Brno4.JPG
http://www3.telus.net/drswebspace/Brno/Brno5.JPG

That is a beautiful rifle. I wouldn't worry about getting slammed in this thread, I don't think there is a gunsmith inCanada that didn't get slammed.
Martin

Thanks Dennis-I havn't seen one of Sam Elliots rifles for a few years.His work always amazed me.Beautiful stock work and the metal finish was incredible.I don't think any one here will dispute this-his work stands well with any I've seen.That memory alone was worth this thread. Take it easy and go shooting.
Glenn

Thanks for posting. Didn't he have fun with that.It's well over the top,but not one line wrong.To do that goes beyond skill,into talent.

Well,
New to this site, and a new lucky owner this year of a Leeper .284 that Rick used to own. I have to say its the nicest gun I've ever had the pleasure of shooting, and all I can do now is worry about howlong it will last me, and where I'm gonna get my next one..hah. Seems like I'm slowly getting addicted to the 'Custom Guns' gang......
Dont know much about gunsmithing yet but here's my vote for Leeper....would love to meet him one day and tell him thanks for building such a nice gun.....

Well I just perused the website for Martini & Hagn. Now those are some fine rifles. Exactly what I'd hope to see from someone who was so highly touted. Their Mauser in 9.3x64 shown on their custom rifle page is my idea of a dream rifle. Well, if it was part of a matched set of triplets in 275 Rigby, 9.6x62 and 416 Rigby I wouldn't know what to do with myself.

http://www.martiniandhagngunmakers.com/customrifles.htm

i'm presently pondering rebarreling a rifle so i saw this thread and thought ... excellent!
in case the fellow i would like to do the work is too busy i'll get some names & phone numbers of others.
then i started working my way through this thread. pretty useless really.
apparently there's no one qualified to do this "complex" job in canada. bull!
everyone sounds like conservatives at a leadership review.
and we wonder why we're losing the gun battle in canada?
and why no one wants to get into the business?
i'm sure even john browning had unhappy customers, but he did ok by and large ...
any names? phone numbers?

You might want to check out D. Henry Gunmakers in Bentley. (403) 748-3030. There is also "Pud" at Bashaw Sports Centre. Don't have the number with me, but a Yahoo! search will turn it up. It's a start anyway...


SS

SS:
thanks for the info. much appreciated. i have talked breifly with d. henry - sounds very knowledgable. thx again

I have a 9.3x64 Breneke on a 98 that I bought used. It was apperently put together by Martini, I could have got bullsheeted though. If Martini did do the work it was not for beauty, but for function. She ain't pretty unless like me you look past the plastic stock and years of use. Then it is plain to see that it is a beautifull rifle. Feeds like a dream and is %100 hunt worthy.