A few months ago I made what I thought was an honest offer on a 'buy it now or best offer' auction on ebay - I offered more than what a couple that had sold recently had brought because his had some extras I wanted. The seller got nasty when he refused my offer because he thought it was to low and said he blocked me from bidding. I emailed him back with links to 2 recent auctions that had went for less than I had bid and explained that I thought it was a reasonable bid and I had bid more becasue of the extras. Just recently I have found myself blocked from bidding on a couple items, one was from someone I had bought from more than once in the past!

More recent I tried to bid on an item on GunBroker and found myself blocked??? I do not have any negative feedback, I asked the seller on GB what was going on and he said I probably was on a blocked bidder list that he uses!

I did a little searching and found there are downloadable lists that are available for sellers - anyone can add you for any reason - it appears you do not even have to really been blocked at any time to get added. Google search for lists

I could not find a list specific for GunBroker but I think many will remember this auction and the blocked bidders it generated - GB auction I had asked a question on this on myself, might be where I got blocked on GB, but my ebay name is the same so it might also have come from there.

This recent seller emailed me back and said he looked at my feedback and unblocked me - I answered back telling him just to keep me blocked if he is going to blindly use a list that can be added to by any vindictive seller without a legitimate reason...and sent him the link to that GB auction. I also told him that if I hadn't been blocked I may not have won his auction but it would be higher than it is right now - the bid I tried to enter was a bit higher. I hope he doesn't get another bid on it.

If you read comments on the sites with the lists there is very little to no mention of even the possibility that any seller ever was the problem or deserved a negative.

Gene

cant remember his name, but thats some idiot thats on this forum from time AND HE IS NOT WORTH ANYBODYS TIME

Gene, Im one of the blocked bidders on that gun and havnt had any other problems with being blocked.

cant remember his name

OLdman/larry/Nancy/45-70 etc.

I think that it's outrageous that someone can be put on a "list" without cause and be blocked from bidding on an auction.

Gene, you were completely correct to tell the second seller to leave you blocked if he was dumb enough to use an arbitrary list like that. I would have done the same as you did.

this bears some investigation. That numbnuts with the Savage is a certified moron. I queried Gunbroker on this guy and they blew me off. Maybe we should be more vocal and foreceful...

He currently goes by the name of shooter4570, but he's had 3 or 4 different names.

PS: Oh yeah, he started a PM thread with me about my commenting on the lunacy of buying from somebody with a 6 month delay on shipment.. and he was REALLY pushing for my gunbroker name. Now I think I know why.

He is affectionately known as Ol'Douche!

If I was dying of thirst, I would not buy water from him/her/it!

Larry Root = nut case.

JEff

My point is that possibly because of him, or someone like him on eBay, I got put on a blocked buyers list and am now getting blocked from bidding on items even from those I have bought from before - just thought anyone who does purchase online would like to know what could happen if you get blocked by anyone for any reason - I now have been blocked by several because of the one, and the multiple blocks might now show up on a list somewhere. My being blocked on eBay might even be the reason I am blocked by at least one seller on GB.

Gary; I just bought a couple other things on GunBroker, no problem - not all sellers use these lists ....yet.

Where is this Larry Root from?

Wyoming part of the year, Florida the rest.

He is a demented weirdo with a bizarre inferiority complex to boot.

Used to go by Rootmanslim on GB not sure if he still does!

Wasn't this the same guy that someone had put on wikipedia. I believe if you looked up Pinedale, WY, they were listed there. Not there right now, however.

Definitely would not lose any concern over being blocked by such.

I think many are missing the point - I am not concerened about being blocked by those couple of idiots that originally blocked me - the problems is that many sellers now blindly see that you were blocked by someone, anyone, for any reason, and then block you themselves. Like I stated, I found myself blocked by someone that I had delt with several times in the past simply because I had been put on a list by one of those idiots.

Someone could put you on one of these list for any reason, justified or not, and you could find yourself blocked from bidding in the future on something you really want. The way I see it, these 'blocking services' do not require any reason - I could take the names of those who blocked me and add them to these lists if I wanted - or I could even take the names of someone who has outbid me and add them just to try and eliminate some of the competion in the future - you don't have to have a legitimate reason.

Gene
I think your statement of not wanting to do business with folks that operate like that pretty much sums it up. No matter what the item may be.

But their action of blocking me has now kept me from doing business with someone I have bought from in the past and want to deal with simple because my name is now on a list.

I agree with you 100% Gene. Blindly blocking someone simply because someone else did somewhere is just a lemming-like, knee jerk, reprehensible display of ignorance and prejudicial behavior. We are fast deteriorating from a society of free thinkers to a society of followers.

You know who they are. Block them back. If they can't list or sell, they may wish to unblock everyone they've "assaulted".

Block everyone till the "lists" have no value.

The lists have value when they are monitored and used correctly but when they are not then it is time for them to be dumped. The only way I can think to stop there use would be to load so many names in to them that there is no one left to bid if you use one.

+1

In fairness, I wonder how many of those complaining are serious internet sellers ?
Let's say feedback (GunBroker, Auction Arms, Ebay and GunsAmerica.com) of over 3000 or hold FFLs ?

Ebay, in particular, is so "buyer biased" that a seller cannot leave any feedback except positive, which leaves the seller up the creek except for the blocking option.

Not really aware of what is going on, on the gun sites except that appears to be some level of disagreement on how auctions should be run among the sites. GunBroker and Auction Arms are basically pure auctions where GunsAmerica is like the fixed price option on Ebay.

IME, sellers/buyers on Ebay are more serious than the gun sites and most, if not all, disagreements are worked out either by the buyers/sellers or with the help of PayPal or Ebay. Those mechanisms don't exist on the gun sites so perhaps that would be a worthwhile change.

As for "blocking everyone", that will make it difficult to sell anything and would be a really big job. By looking at a potential bidder/buyer's feedback, you can usually get a pretty good idea of what he buys and spends.

Finally, there is a difference between a courteous relevant question ("could you tell me the size of the boots you have listed) and trolls telling you how you should be listing or pricing your item. 100s of thousands of folks make thier living on the Internet, it's a business not a game.

Discourtesy is not a relevant cause for blocking a potential buyer. Harassment perhaps,lying, dishonesty, but not discourtesy. Ebay should have an "appeal" court whereby ill-advised blocking for spite results in loss of seller's privileges.

Like my mom used to say. It's always fun untill someone gets hurt.

I find it kind of hard to believe that Larry/Bosslady/old man has not been put on the blocked list himself.

See if you can join that "buddy list" and put his handle on it.

Here are links to 3 sites that have blocking list that one can use - there are many more - Here's an example set up so all someone has to do is copy and past into their eBay blocked list - (I am not on any of these) - to look for your name on these just hit CTRL + F and a box will appear that will look for any text you type in it - this will only search the current screen buffer (what you can scoll to see) if you go to another page you will need to run it again.

http://www.firemeg.com/blockeda.htm

another that you have to sign up for to access - http://www.trustedblacklist.com/

On this last one page down and look at some of the comments - most by 'Anonymous'
[url=http://blacklistedebayers.blogspot.com/2009/05/blocked-buyerbidder-list.html
Here are some examples from that last list -


I have done enough buying on eBay to have ran into several sellers that range from no to good to total crooks - all used the threat of negative feedbacks for leverage in the transactions. Those who complain about eBays newer policy restricting negative feedback by sellers has to realize it was widespread abuse by sellers that brought that change about. I had one who emailed saying he no longer had the item and would refund the money - he did not use the normal refund but sent the funds directly through paypal which cost me their fee - he then managed to somehow flag me as an unpaying bidder even though I had the paypal reciept! That was so he would not be charged any fees - I left no feedback for him because I knew I would just get an negative back for myself. I did try to contact eBay about the nonpaying bidder but never got any response - this was a few years ago.

To update. Ebay now has a direct phone number on the site (as does Paypal) with real people to speak with. I have yet to find a problem they will not deal with in a profesional matter.

Your information is out of date. Sellers CANNOT LEAVE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK, no matter how slimy the buyer.The consortium of Ebay sellers who have banded together to share information on bad buyers, is no evil plot. Only a reaction to Ebay's policy that now prevents sellers almost any recourse against deadbeat buyers who use tricks like the "weighted empty box return" to steal merchandise and also get their money back.

I would note that my initial question:

"In fairness, I wonder how many of those complaining are serious internet
sellers ? Let's say feedback (GunBroker, Auction Arms, Ebay and GunsAmerica.com) of over 3000 or hold FFLs ?" has gone unanswered.

The silence speaks volumes.

My info is not out of date - I stated that the new shared block bidder lists are because of the recent restriction on negative feedback for sellers, my experience as mentioned was with the old system, and the wide spread abuse by sellers was the reason that they had to change the feedback system. Even with the new system many sellers are leaving 'negative positives' by giving an A and then making negative comments. I have been buying on ebay long enough to have been stuck several times - I still have almost always left a positive (or none at all) to keep from getting a negative for myself. If these groups of sellers start to abuse the system of blocking, eBay maybe forced to change that also. Do you really think it was abuse by buyers that caused eBay to change the rules for sellers?

I have accepted some real crap from a couple sellers and have always paid fast, and only returned two items for which both sellers still got positive feedback - and I get on a blocked list for "deadbeat buyers"? Please explain to me why?

No matter if you like, love, hate or dispise eBay I have found it sometimes to be the only place I have been able to find certain things - I wish there were an alternative but there isn't a good one now...and there may never be. It draws a lot of crooked buyers but it also draws a lot of crooked sellers.

I just asked one of the sellers again why I was blocked - this it the answer - "Who and what do you want from me I don't know you I don't want to know you it and if you died what would it matter to me. " I still don't know why I was blocked.

Because they can. Don't take much to piss off an eBay seller. Given the current situation of eBay the sellers hold all the cards. A boycott would work wonders but there aren't enough buyers willing to boycott eBay to its knees. Most buyers think that they have too much to lose as to the array of merchandise. 'Bout the best thing you can do is re-register under a new name or change your name if they still allow that. Don't go there often enough to know anymore. Your complaint is another example of where "life sucks" but if you change your name or re-register who'll know you've been blocked in the past. Sometimes you're the bug and sometimes you're the windshield. Unfortunately sometimes it bleeds over to gunbroker or other auction sites. That sucks. Life goes on.

"Given the current situation of eBay the sellers hold all the cards."

LMAO, EVERY change Ebay has made in the past 5 years has been to punish sellers not buyers.

It would appear you are not an active Ebay seller or you would know this.

Try to sell a model Civil war cannon or a letter from Germany postmarked in 1940, try to get Ebay/PayPal not to refund all of some crook's money who bought a $500 scope from you and then sent you back a box of rocks that weighed the same, I could go on for pages, but if you google Ebay frauds you'll learn a lot you obviously are unaware of.

The previous cut and paste posts degrading buyers had nothing to do with the sellers consortium that has over 5000 members and NEVER goes public outside of internal correspondence.

You're right on one count, Ebay is begging for competition. They lost 10s of 1000s of auctions with the no guns, no ammo, no cases/bullets, no gun part that helps the gun function, no WW II German stuff (although Jap., VietCong, Cuban. FARC, Iraq/Iran stuff is all fine.)

This is one of the few times I would love to be filthy rich (Bill Gates level). Think of the fun of starting a "new Ebay" headquartered in Mississippi, buying tons of ad time on FNC and FBC and allowing anyone to sell anything with 1/2 the listing and commission fees of Ebay. Probably get your picture on the cover of Business Week, Forbes and Time.
Heck you could even move to CA and run for "governornator"!

No, I am not an active seller but I have several close friends who are and they sell a few items occasionally for me. I have disscused this issue exttensivly with them - they run into a smaller percentage of bad buyers than bad sellers (only one also actively buys).

I took your advice and did GOOGLE ebay fraud - here are the hits I looked at, most had very little info, the bottom one for '2008' is the one that actually led to some information - you can follow the links your self and will end up at the screen pictured at the bottom - is this what I was supposed to find? or was I supposed to GOOLGE looking specifically for just buyer fraud? You can follow the links yourself.


I have now heard from my friends that eBay, because of wide spread abuse of inflated shipping, is changing their policy on that and will start charging a fee on shipping, it's not buyers who have asked if they could pay $5.00+ for something that actually cost a dollar or two to ship. I have been charges as high as $12.00+ for a small catalog that had less that $2.00 postage on it - I do not have a problem with this as I figure it into my bid..until I get a misrepresented item and the seller says to return it for refund minus the shipping, that's another story.

As for your reference to another list of blocked bidders, what I really want to know is why with 7+ years on eBay and gunBroker, and 100% postive feedback I am on one of your lists? If these lists have any true merit than I think someone should be able to give me an intellegent explination of the reason why? - so far I have not been offered even a good theory to a legitimate reason. I can PM you my user name on both so you can look at my feedback and then show me where I did something wrong.

Why would anybody offer something for sale with a 6-month delay on shipping? Did you ever get a logical response from him?

GeneB, On page one you state a sale on Gunbroker and a seller that is a chump. I say chump because a year ago I had a rude run in with the same fellow. For some time a lot of folks here have been treating this auction like a leg trapped otter and wanting to poke a stick at it. Did you poke a stick at it?
I see where your coming from but is this something that started with, It's always fun untill someone gets hurt?

I found myself blocked on eBay before all that and I just watched - I have the same user name on all auction sites so the blocking on GB may have came from an eBay, I don't know - no one will give any reasons.

I haven't been buying near as much as I used to on line, I have been getting bit much more often than in the past, not big problems but still enough to start turning you off.

I really look through a sellers feedback now and often that doesn't help as I do not trust the accuracy of any of it anymore. I know I have left positives for sellers that should definatly gotten negatives just to avoid problems. From comments I read while doing research on blockiing lists it seem some sellers sometimes will block any buyer that ever left a negative (or even a neutral) - if you give out any negative as a buyer it seems your just asking for problems.

From the sounds of things Gene your name might have been added because it starts with a G. May be it was because you simply questioned shipping methods or because you are competition to other collectors. I would suggest multiple user names with plenty of shill feedback. Seriously, not what an honorable man does but we are commonly not dealing with honorable people who do their homework, ship items properly packaged and timely, or care what the buyer/seller thinks.

It only takes a few jack-offs to ruin those who expect (and assume) all are on the up-and-up. My limited experience buying and selling online has lead me to believe FTF rules don't apply. Communication and shipping practices vary widely. The more I experience and hear of experiences I hesitate to make on-line buys. Even when I do my homework I'm still apprehensive until the deal is done.

When selling I check frequently and worry that everything arrived in good condition and that the buyer is satisfied. Lately, buyers have not communicated or left feedback either way.

When buying I communicate or leave feedback the day I receive the item.

My experience is limited to around 100 deals on E-Bay (since 2000), a couple on Gun Broker and a few in the classifieds. Friends and family share many stories of woe from their dealings.

I bend over backwards to properly pack and timely ship the few items I have sold online. Always charge actual shipping and only add handling if a box or packing materials cost me.

After the last round of items I sold on E-Bay the fees, communication, payment and shipping makes me wonder if it was worth the trouble. We used to have 1 Yard Sale and 1 trip to the Flea Market per year. May now be more lucrative to return to this method of ridding ourselves of usable items.

Figure out the game for yourself and play it to the best of your ability. I suspect with your intellect you will win a high percentage of the time.

Here's one for you. I have an item for sale on Ebay, the item has bids to $105 for a few days. Last night I get several bids from the same buyer up to $123.50, just past the last high bidder, then after several hours a bid retraction. Now the item is back at $105 and the high bidder is exposed. WTF? I'd expect that underhanded stuff from sellers on GB with 8000 count.

What the hell does that mean and what brought you to this thread??

I've bit my tongue and stayed out of this so far. By and large, this internet stuff works pretty well. I've been in it since the very early days. I'm pretty well fed up with the whole ebay thing as of late. With the forced paypal payments now they get about 13% of your sale. And! don't sell anything that smacks of 'gun stuff'

I've not yet been victimized by the blocking problem but I am not surprised that some people have been hurt by it. Change your ID and get back in the game - it's the internet way...

The conversation got really bizarre, with him saying that I was implying that he was breaking federal laws and that I should attack every website on the internet that offers layaway. Apparently he views himself as a Sears & Roebuck and he's just offering a "layaway" program. Course, by the time he returns home and looks at the gun he sold it's been 8 or 9 months since he's last seen it, and I can't believe anybody would buy under those conditions.

And I agree with Mike.. close that blocked account and open up a new one. Have to start with zero feedback, but that's not a big deal if you're buying and not selling.

Amen! The internet is an ugly place. If you go there not thinking there is a thief behind every bush, you will be screwed before you know it!

I say that based on 40 years in the business...

Free will brought me here, same as you. It has no matter to me if a count is 8 or 8000 on feedback. When I bid,buy or sell I play by majority rule. When I bid,buy or sell and the next guy skirts the rules, I won't play at that table again. I do agree the internet auction sites work by and large pretty good.

I agree. I also agree with ring3 in that I'm becoming more interested in going back to local flea markets or auctions where the product you are buying is in front of you and when you buy it you leave with it in hand.

Too bad you have so little faith in the essential honesty of people. After 50+ years of "doing deals" (1000s) from the GunList, Shotgun News and all the Internet sights, I've had fewer than 10 problems and all but one were resolved between the buyer/seller. One took PayPal to get involved but it also came out fine.
Heck I've bought lotsa stuff here and yet to have an issue.

I gotta believe you cynics are not serious Internet buyers and sellers. If it were the horrible place you say, all the websites (including the Classified here) would be out of business.

You keep looking for the thieves behind every bush and going to the flea markets ...... less competition for the rest of us.

Think of the money I could save!

You must be very popular in Nigeria.

You buy your guns from Nigeria ? Does Hillary know about that ?

Ooops sorry missed that you live in the Peoples' Republik of Kalifornia ...... most Internet sellers won't sell you guns so I guess Nigeria is a reasonable alternative.

I'm still spending the $10,000,000 I got from the nice lady in Lagos who told me about my long lost fourth cousin with the diamond mine that collapsed on him when the UFO landed on the mountain it was in.

Maybe you have rich Uncle in South Central L.A. ? (a joke)

Just to update this...

mtdorarider is Larry Root, the guy this entire thread is about. Isn't it amazing how he trolled this entire thread and never came out and denied any allegation, as an honest man would?

Probably because Larry Root is dishonesty personified.

Hah, mtdorarider was the first person that I ever put on ignore on these forums. Good to know that I have good taste!

It's odd that a post was deleted from here that a lot of you had already read. Is the same mob mentality starting on the other thread of Cobbled Together? Emailing a seller you know is in the wrong will get at times what you may be asking for. Just because you know something doesn't make you smarter. Could it be manners stop here? I've seen this out of you guys more than once.

LP, don't be surprised at anything you see happen on this site. You may THINK it is run by Mr. Bin but he only does what he told to by a small clique (+- 12) of loudmouths who really control the site.
I've been banned so many times I've lost count and could really care less as this site is about as secure as the AZ border.
Bought a lot of good stuff here from some gentlemen who don't get their rocks off by having 5 digit post counts.

Have you considered why that post was deleted and who commanded it to be done ? The very same people who were identified in it as liars and trolls.
How do you think ONE post out of 1000s over the same period was specifically identified ? Luck of the draw ? Hardly heroic tactics eh ?

Keep your head down because if you get in their crosshairs they will first tag you as UBB buddies and then start attacking you on every thread you post on.
There are far better sites, run by adults who quickly can the types of jerks who try to CONTROL everyone here.

"Just because you know something doesn't make you smarter. Could it be manners stop here? I've seen this out of you guys more than once."

That just could be your kiss of death as you are not dealing with adults.

Larry, Larry, Larry, yet another new handle? How do you keep track of who you are? Heck, you have more 24HCF personalities than Sybil and she had 16!

If you were honest with yourself, you'd know exactly why you get run off shortly after you reincarnate yourself. Why? Easy answer, 'cause you're a transparent poser and as the old saying goes "you can fool the fans, but you can't fool the players".

JEff

Lowprofile--
I suppose there's a kernel of truth in what you're saying, but I would stop way short of calling this "Mob mentality." For the most part, this is a pretty genial and welcoming community of folks--far more so than is usually encountered in similar web discussion groups. The guys here are friendly, generous, and helpful, in my experience, but they have a low threshold for BS and for con-artists.

As for my actions with the seller in question on the other thread titled "Another Cobbled-up Mess," yes I did e-mail the seller to ask for his explanation of the rifle's parentage (a question to which I already knew the answer). I did this not to learn about the rifle, but to learn about the seller. His response told me everything I needed to know. Was this bad manners? I don't think so. Is it bad manners to misrepresent a basket-case rifle as some sort of rare collector's piece? Yes, in my opinion it is.

Rod

I do agree with what you said about the seller you asked a question to. Your not going to fix it, they're every were. Pick and choose, cover you assets

Well GO to those sites, because your not welcome here.

Course your too dumb to realize that arent you Lawrence?

So, just to make sure I understand. You are stating publicly and clearly that you are intentionally committing felonies? And I'm not a lawyer, but I am an IT guy and I do know the fed and state laws on this issue carry teeth. I think making use of Rick's server to annoy and drive away the people that make up his business is a bad place to be in from your point of view. Might want to talk with your son and see about this, if you're not estranged.




And in addition you are apparently retired from active work, and actively engage in the buying and selling of firearms as a means of supporting yourself? Seems the ATF likes to get involved with that issue also.

Hope nobody that you've upset on this site is of a mean nature.

I wonder how many otherwise calm, rational people would like to visit harm on this guy. He seems to bring out a primal need for violence in some people, or so I noticed on other forums. I'll bet he took a licking on the school yard quite often as a kid. For his consistent anti-social behavior (in lo his many incarnations) on this web site I wouldn't be surprised if someone someplace snaps and takes virtual tongue lashing to real lashing.

Kids like that rarely get beat up...they just foment trouble among the other kids. Sneaky little bastards mostly. When they get caught, some poor kid who succumbs to the compulsion to punch the little twit usually gets in trouble.

Kind of like emailing leading questions, ?. I posted before that this is not game to bet or win on. You guys get into a mob thing and just push it, not worth it. Let it go and it goes away. The start of this post was just like my mom said, It's always fun untill some one gets hurt! The starter of this post got hurt and whimpered then all jump in. I've said it before, did you poke a stick at it? If so, take the bite.

Just looked around a little, and it seems that Lowprofile is Larry as well.

Could be wrong though.

Maybe a sticky should be posted revealing all of his/her/it's aliases.

Who is this guy? And why is he so disliked?

I don't understand why Rick Bin doesn't throw the coksucker off here once and for all!?!?!?!

I started this post to warn people not to take getting blocked to lightly - I found my self blocked for unknown reasons and it happened on eBay way before the auction of discussion on GunBroker occurred, I just used that as an example (I was not involved in that auction). I just wanted to warn people not to take getting blocked by one person to lightly because the sellers on these sites have a "group mentality" and generate lists of those they have blocked without having any legitimate reasons - when asked they will not even tell you why. They group together making lists with the likes of that seller on GB who is obviously blocking people just to be a jerk.

I found myself blocked on GunBroker when I tried to enter a $150 bid on an item, When I asked the seller why he blocked me, he said he probably got my name off a list, after looking at my feedback he said he took me off his blocked list and I could bid - well I didn't and the auction ended at $140 - who got hurt, I didn't need it that bad to deal with someone like him. If someone with a 100% positive feedback isn't good enough for him to deal with, he's never going to be happy with anything and I assume he would be difficult to deal with. My GunBroker feedback


I do really regret starting this thread, it has gone in directions I never anticipated or wanted it to, but as the person that started it I felt I should at least watch it - I had hoped a couple times that it would just fade on to the second page and eventually disappear. lowprofile, you sound like another resurrection of oldman42, even though you tell others not to, you keep "poking sticks" - just let it go. Hopefully this thread will just disappear.

As long as I am posting I found this stuff a few days ago but because I had hoped this thread would end so I didn't post - this is from a web site with tips for sellers on eBay, from sellers.
Here is some more about shipping � from an eBay seller.

Shipping Charges

Yes, I do regret starting this!!!! I apologize for having what I thought would be a simple informative post turn into this! I should have given much more thought to my initial post and not used that GunBroker auction as one of my examples!!!

Until then (if that is even possible) suspicion will be there is a Root behind every bush . The new posters will fall under increased scrutiny. Keep up the good work Lightfoot and Dog Hunter. Riled me before I realized his multiple ruse.

Kinda sad though. A man who has lived that long now has nothing better to do than this? Doubt he has many friends to share his exploits and laugh with. I say this from experience.

I have a close family member who is similarly anti-social. She believes her reasoning and attitude are appropriate and can't understand the negative reactions. Bright educated woman. Therapy and medications helped some but ultimately the negative comes out. She is now 69 and for all intents "institutionalized". Mental illness is a debilitating disease. Those who try to understand are often the ones who feel the greatest wrath.

I am glad you stared the thread Gene. Lots of good info between the BS .

OH GOSH! NOW IT LOOKS LIKE I'M IN TROUBLE!