If you get a C&R license, are most places that sell or auction off rifles 50 years or older going to accept just a C&R license?
Most of the time they always ask for an FFL. I can't find any good savage rifles around my location anymore.
Is it worth getting a C&R license?
I've had good luck with getting folks to send rifles to me with a C&R, but I always keep a full FFL handy in case I run into somebody stubborn.
As I understand it, the person receiving it is the one taking responsibility for a firearm being C&R eligible. If it's not C&R eligible, then you have no reason to send a copy of your FFL to them. Basically, if you lie to the shipper and use your C&R to get a 40 year old rifle shipped to you, it's you that the ATF will come after if they find out - not the shipper.
Is it worth getting a C&R license?
Yep.
I find mine very useful for internet transactions and at gun shows.
It's a homerun. My only regret is that I didn't get it 15 years ago.
I'm only interested in older firearms. I have only one new rifle and it's a Winchester commemorative that I've never even fired (not much fun). Guess I'll fill out the forms and give it a try. I want to try and get another Savage at some type, either a Model 20 or another 99.
Totally worth it. It's $30 for three years. You'll make you fees back the first month. I applied for mine last winter and received it in eleven weeks.
Rod
One thing.. just be amazingly nitpicky about keeping your logbook correct. I hardly ever hear of ATF doing an inspection of a C&R holder, but it can happen. And you don't have to turn it in to the ATF when your C&R expires.
Couple of good links:
http://members.cox.net/cruffler/ffl.htmlhttp://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html
I haven't really studied this but it is my perception that the C&R is intended to make it easier for Collectors to acquire pieces to add to their collections. If your goal is to buy and then sell firearms under the C&R, I think you could run into trouble down the road. Fact or fiction??
Fact. It says repeatedly through the regs in regards to the C&R:
"This license does not authorize the holder to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms".
How much selling constitutes dealing is a gray area that only the ATF inspectors will clarify.
Federal firearms violation is not worth it, if you do a lot of buying/selling of +50 year old guns then you might want to avoid a C&R.
Edit: What does dealing mean?
"The term �engaged in the business,� as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms."
It's my sense that you can buy and sell without any problems as long as you can show that you are not using your C&R to acquire your primary source of income.
JMO
One thing.. just be amazingly nitpicky about keeping your logbook correct. I hardly ever hear of ATF doing an inspection of a C&R holder, but it can happen. And you don't have to turn it in to the ATF when your C&R expires.
Guy on another forum was inspected earlier this year. Said it was very professional but very thorough. He passed without any problems. I can probably dig up the post and copy the pertinent details if anybody wants them.
Dale
The record keeping part of it is not difficult.
Basically serial #, manufacturer, model, action type and caliber of the gun, who you bought it from and/or sold it too, date and purchase or selling price.
Are there any storage requirements...must be stored as a group (booked C&R's), tagged, secure location, etc.?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=236448409This is the book that I use that you can get right off GB. As far as I know you only have to be able to make this information available to ATF should they want to see it. I just keep mine in my filing cabinet.
You can see any 10 year old kid could keep the records.
In addition to this information I also keep a copy of either the FFL of the person I bought or sold the gun too or the driver's license if they do not have an FFL.
It's not required, but I figure it's good insurance.
I downloaded a template for the Bound Book and keep it in a MS Word document as well as hard copy. I keep all the associated paperwork for each gun in a plastic sleeve in the binder I use for the Bound Book. Minimal cost.
Are there any storage requirements...must be stored as a group (booked C&R's), tagged, secure location, etc.?
I was refering to storage of firearms.
I think you are concerned with co-mingling firearms obtained with a C&R with those you might have owned previous to having the C&R? If that's the question - I have no idea.
Are there any storage requirements...must be stored as a group (booked C&R's), tagged, secure location, etc.?
I was refering to storage of firearms.
None that I am aware of.
Once you own the firearm it is not any different that any other firearm you own. ATF has given you a license to buy, sell and collect curio's and relics without having to go through an instant background check though a commercial FFL every time you make a transaction. They (ATF), have determined that through an extensive background check you are not a threat to own these guns and it is pointless to hassle you every time you want to make a transaction. They are actually making things easier for you. Since you are not going through a commercial FFL for these transactions all they are asking you to do is do the record keeping yourself.
If you collect firearms over 50 years old and you can get through their background check, it's a no brainer IMO. One note is that you also have to notify your local police authorities that you are in possession of the the C&R
My C&R guns aren't treated any different than any of my other guns. As long as you are not holding up liquor stores with your C&R's you can do basically whatever you want with them
I would much rather pay a ffl holder ,dealer the extra money then have "UNCLE" coming around visiting !!!!
Don
Rick, there are no storage requirements, no need to tag "personal collection" versus "C&R" received rifles, no need to log firearms out of the logbook to yourself, and no need to log any firearms you owned prior to getting the C&R. As I understand it, you will need to log the purchase or sale of any C&R eligible firearm that is done while you have the C&R, even if you don't use the C&R to buy it.
And 99guy, I think if you buy and sell a lot of C&R eligible firearms you are in a gray area and you are subject to the whims of individual ATF agents and supervisors. The law doesn't state primary income. Only if you can show that you are doing it to enhance or upgrade your collection are you guaranteed to be safe.
And 99guy, I think if you buy and sell a lot of C&R eligible firearms you are in a gray area and you are subject to the whims of individual ATF agents and supervisors. The law doesn't state primary income. Only if you can show that you are doing it to enhance or upgrade your collection are you guaranteed to be safe.
Agreed that there is definitely some grey in the wording that could be open to individual interpretation. A C&R cannot "Engage in the business" of buying and selling curios and relics.
I think my personal logbook shows 10 purchases and 3 sales in about 2 years. Hardly a business in my case.
I've seen very little info on C&R actual audits. I know that in the past they have done very little inspecting but that does not mean that they won't reverse that in the future. Who knows how they might interpret all those gray areas. I've seen the crap they make the Class 1 FFL holders go through to feel easy about dealing with any kind of an inspection.
I've been a collector/accumulator 40 plus years and the thought of an inspector asking "...and what are all these other firearms?" bothers me. It's not that anything is illegal but how the law might be bent to cause me trouble. At this time I am in Loggah's group.
It's my understanding that you can choose to have the inspection performed at their office? Or if you had it at your home, why not just set out all the C&R rifles that are in your log-book - out for them - separate from everything else. Such as just take those guns out of the safe, vault, basement or whatever? Why would they need to see or know about anything else?
It's my understanding that you can choose to have the inspection performed at their office? Or if you had it at your home, why not just set out all the C&R rifles that are in your log-book - out for them - separate from everything else. Such as just take those guns out of the safe, vault, basement or whatever? Why would they need to see or know about anything else?
This is what I was thinking... I can not believe that short of a search warrant you are under any obligation to show them your gun collection, certainly not from before the C&R. Could be wrong but would like to hear the justification.
It's my understanding that you can choose to have the inspection performed at their office? Or if you had it at your home, why not just set out all the C&R rifles that are in your log-book - out for them - separate from everything else. Such as just take those guns out of the safe, vault, basement or whatever? Why would they need to see or know about anything else?
If that has been proven to work then I would have no problem with it. Has it been proven? I'm probably reading to much Class 1 FFL into the situation...but better safe than sorry until I have more info on the C&R audits.
Again, it was my understanding that you could choose to have the inspection/audit at their office. Rory probably know the chapter and verse on this. Also, if you are audited, it is my understanding that the sole focus is the guns in your bound book, not anything else you happen to own.
Rick:
Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 44, 923, section (g)(C):
(C) The Attorney General may inspect the inventory and records of a licensed collector without such reasonable cause or warrant�
(i) for ensuring compliance with the record keeping requirements of this chapter not more than once during any twelve-month period; or
(ii) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation.
Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 44, 923, section (g)(D):
(D) At the election of a licensed collector, the annual inspection of records and inventory permitted under this paragraph shall be performed at the office of the Attorney General designated for such inspections which is located in closest proximity to the premises where the inventory and records of such licensed collector are maintained. The inspection and examination authorized by this paragraph shall not be construed as authorizing the Attorney General to seize any records or other documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law. If the Attorney General seizes such records or documents, copies shall be provided the licensee within a reasonable time. The Attorney General may make available to any Federal, State, or local law enforcement agency any information which he may obtain by reason of this chapter with respect to the identification of persons prohibited from purchasing or receiving firearms or ammunition who have purchased or received firearms or ammunition, together with a description of such firearms or ammunition, and he may provide information to the extent such information may be contained in the records required to be maintained by this chapter, when so requested by any Federal, State, or local law enforcement agency.
Even if you allow them in your home to view the log book and inventory rather than carting them to the AG office, they have no right to inspect anything not in the log book without a warrant.
The big gotcha with this is the chance of running up against the ignorant/rookie ATF inspector, or the arrogant/retaliatory inspector who decides to make your life miserable. Haven't heard of that happening with a C&R holder, but it's not like the ATF under a Democratic president is a gun-owner friendly agency. I've never been inspected, but I didn't renew my C&R. I went a year without and got a new one, and rumor has it that inspections are most common during renewals.
Here's the section from ATF about entries in the log book. The bolded section is why I've heard that you have to enter in every purchase/sale of C&R eligible firearms, regardless of whether you used the C&R to get it shipped to you.
(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. <etc, etc, etc>
You guys crack me up.
I wonder how many ex C&R holders there are rotting in jail right now because our government railroaded them?
Jesus.
Rory, if you must record all C&R firearms wheather purchased with the C&R or not, are you then required to record all sales of C&R firearms purchased both while a C&R holder and before?
Rick, yes you do need to enter in the sale of C&R firearms that were bought prior to having a C&R (all acquisitions and dispositions is the key). I find it hard to believe you ever sell anything, though.
Rick, yes you do need to enter in the sale of C&R firearms that were bought prior to having a C&R (all acquisitions and dispositions is the key). I find it hard to believe you ever sell anything, though.
And That is why I will Never Get One., I'm not about to record the guns i bought with-out P.W. prior to anything.I don't care for the goberment knowing all that i may or may not have.
Rick, yes you do need to enter in the sale of C&R firearms that were bought prior to having a C&R (all acquisitions and dispositions is the key). I find it hard to believe you ever sell anything, though.
And That is why I will Never Get One., I'm not about to record the guns i bought with-out P.W. prior to anything.I don't care for the goberment knowing all that i may or may not have.
But.. if you're recording guns that you sell, you don't have them any more.
Personally, if I use a FFL in either Lincoln or Omaha I'm at a high risk of having those guns go into city firearm databases due to ridiculous laws that are in place in both of those places. Finding an FFL outside of town is problematic, so having a C&R reduces my gov't exposure rather than raises it.
Rick,
Even with an 01 FFL they can only inspect your FFL inventory and bound book unless they have a warrant. I'm also NICS exempt by being an FFL. When I order something for myself all I have to do is log it out to "Owner's personal collection" and that's the end of it.
I have not sold many but some day I might want to.
