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I've seen very little info on C&R actual audits. I know that in the past they have done very little inspecting but that does not mean that they won't reverse that in the future. Who knows how they might interpret all those gray areas. I've seen the crap they make the Class 1 FFL holders go through to feel easy about dealing with any kind of an inspection.

I've been a collector/accumulator 40 plus years and the thought of an inspector asking "...and what are all these other firearms?" bothers me. It's not that anything is illegal but how the law might be bent to cause me trouble. At this time I am in Loggah's group.


Savage...never say "never".
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It's my understanding that you can choose to have the inspection performed at their office? Or if you had it at your home, why not just set out all the C&R rifles that are in your log-book - out for them - separate from everything else. Such as just take those guns out of the safe, vault, basement or whatever? Why would they need to see or know about anything else?



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Originally Posted by boltman
It's my understanding that you can choose to have the inspection performed at their office? Or if you had it at your home, why not just set out all the C&R rifles that are in your log-book - out for them - separate from everything else. Such as just take those guns out of the safe, vault, basement or whatever? Why would they need to see or know about anything else?


This is what I was thinking... I can not believe that short of a search warrant you are under any obligation to show them your gun collection, certainly not from before the C&R. Could be wrong but would like to hear the justification.


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Originally Posted by boltman
It's my understanding that you can choose to have the inspection performed at their office? Or if you had it at your home, why not just set out all the C&R rifles that are in your log-book - out for them - separate from everything else. Such as just take those guns out of the safe, vault, basement or whatever? Why would they need to see or know about anything else?


If that has been proven to work then I would have no problem with it. Has it been proven? I'm probably reading to much Class 1 FFL into the situation...but better safe than sorry until I have more info on the C&R audits.


Savage...never say "never".
Rick...

Join the NRA...together we stand, divided we fall!


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Again, it was my understanding that you could choose to have the inspection/audit at their office. Rory probably know the chapter and verse on this. Also, if you are audited, it is my understanding that the sole focus is the guns in your bound book, not anything else you happen to own.



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Rick:

Quote
Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 44, 923, section (g)(C):

(C) The Attorney General may inspect the inventory and records of a licensed collector without such reasonable cause or warrant�
(i) for ensuring compliance with the record keeping requirements of this chapter not more than once during any twelve-month period; or
(ii) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation.


Quote
Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 44, 923, section (g)(D):

(D) At the election of a licensed collector, the annual inspection of records and inventory permitted under this paragraph shall be performed at the office of the Attorney General designated for such inspections which is located in closest proximity to the premises where the inventory and records of such licensed collector are maintained. The inspection and examination authorized by this paragraph shall not be construed as authorizing the Attorney General to seize any records or other documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law. If the Attorney General seizes such records or documents, copies shall be provided the licensee within a reasonable time. The Attorney General may make available to any Federal, State, or local law enforcement agency any information which he may obtain by reason of this chapter with respect to the identification of persons prohibited from purchasing or receiving firearms or ammunition who have purchased or received firearms or ammunition, together with a description of such firearms or ammunition, and he may provide information to the extent such information may be contained in the records required to be maintained by this chapter, when so requested by any Federal, State, or local law enforcement agency.


Even if you allow them in your home to view the log book and inventory rather than carting them to the AG office, they have no right to inspect anything not in the log book without a warrant.


The big gotcha with this is the chance of running up against the ignorant/rookie ATF inspector, or the arrogant/retaliatory inspector who decides to make your life miserable. Haven't heard of that happening with a C&R holder, but it's not like the ATF under a Democratic president is a gun-owner friendly agency. I've never been inspected, but I didn't renew my C&R. I went a year without and got a new one, and rumor has it that inspections are most common during renewals.


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Here's the section from ATF about entries in the log book. The bolded section is why I've heard that you have to enter in every purchase/sale of C&R eligible firearms, regardless of whether you used the C&R to get it shipped to you.

Quote
(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. <etc, etc, etc>


The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”.
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Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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DONT TRUST THE DAMNED GOVERNMENT ON ANYTHING,ANYTHING A PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION HAS SAID OR DONE DOESN"T HAVE TO BE ADHERED TO BY A NEW ADMINISTRATIONWe been thru this on a wild and scenic rivers designation !!!!!! !!!!! mad mad mad

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You guys crack me up.

I wonder how many ex C&R holders there are rotting in jail right now because our government railroaded them?

Jesus.


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Originally Posted by 99guy
You guys crack me up.

I wonder how many ex C&R holders there are rotting in jail right now because our government railroaded them?

Jesus.


And THERE you have it. The way it IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! grin grin grin wink wink

This is getting "almost" pop-cornable!!!!!!!!!!!


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Rory, if you must record all C&R firearms wheather purchased with the C&R or not, are you then required to record all sales of C&R firearms purchased both while a C&R holder and before?


Savage...never say "never".
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Rick, yes you do need to enter in the sale of C&R firearms that were bought prior to having a C&R (all acquisitions and dispositions is the key). I find it hard to believe you ever sell anything, though. grin

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Originally Posted by Calhoun
Rick, yes you do need to enter in the sale of C&R firearms that were bought prior to having a C&R (all acquisitions and dispositions is the key). I find it hard to believe you ever sell anything, though. grin



And That is why I will Never Get One., I'm not about to record the guns i bought with-out P.W. prior to anything.I don't care for the goberment knowing all that i may or may not have.


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Originally Posted by 1899sav
Originally Posted by Calhoun
Rick, yes you do need to enter in the sale of C&R firearms that were bought prior to having a C&R (all acquisitions and dispositions is the key). I find it hard to believe you ever sell anything, though. grin


And That is why I will Never Get One., I'm not about to record the guns i bought with-out P.W. prior to anything.I don't care for the goberment knowing all that i may or may not have.


But.. if you're recording guns that you sell, you don't have them any more. grin

Personally, if I use a FFL in either Lincoln or Omaha I'm at a high risk of having those guns go into city firearm databases due to ridiculous laws that are in place in both of those places. Finding an FFL outside of town is problematic, so having a C&R reduces my gov't exposure rather than raises it.

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Rick,

Even with an 01 FFL they can only inspect your FFL inventory and bound book unless they have a warrant. I'm also NICS exempt by being an FFL. When I order something for myself all I have to do is log it out to "Owner's personal collection" and that's the end of it.


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I have not sold many but some day I might want to. smile


Savage...never say "never".
Rick...

Join the NRA...together we stand, divided we fall!


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