I ran across this guy doing a google search for ballistics and loads, etc. His site is Terminal Ballistics Research and he writes as if his is the authority on all fact. Here is his comment in regard to the 250-3000 Savage. I had never heard this before. Have any of you? (see his quote below).

The .250-3000 became extremely popular for a time, then gradually lost favor. Hunters, not only in the U.S but throughout the world adopted the Savage for its advertised virtues but soon found the cartridge wanting. The lightly constructed 87 grain factory load would sometimes suffer bullet blow up on impact and fail to penetrate the onside muscle and bone of a variety of deer species. Wounding was often both narrow and shallow and game animals would run after being hit with well placed shots. To add to the frustration, many hunters found the light recoiling, fast handling and highly accurate Savage rifle extremely nice to use. Hunters were loathe to part with the Savage rifle but loathe to use the cartridge on deer.

Eventually, a 100 grain load was created for the .250 but by this time, the cartridge already had a bad rap. Nevertheless, a small portion of hunters continued to enjoy using the .250 on light bodied game, favoring the light recoil of the .250 combined with the desirable qualities of the Savage 99 rifle. As can be expected, the .250 was a great cartridge for training young hunters and it is in this last role that the .250 Savage has survived through to the present.

There was always controversy around any new cartridges and bullets, they weren't any different back then than they are now. Remember that when the 250-3000 came out that it was only 20'ish years since black powder was still king, so there were a LOT of hunters who blamed any deer that ran on the 87gr bullet because that NEVER happened if you used a serious caliber with serious bullets.

And, there surely were bullet failures. Metallurgy and quality control weren't as good back then as now.

But it remained a popular round for a long time. I'd compare it's popularity then to how popular the 243 is now, and the 243 gets many of the same complaints to this day - even here on the campfire.

I think the 100gr bullets made their introduction in the early 30's?

New Zealand employed many deer culler's after WW2 a lot of these used the old military 303 but as funds increased moved to other calibers
Many went to the 222 & 22 Hi Power & a small number went to the 250-3000 only because the 250 rifle was hard to come by down here
Their daily tallies increased with these modern rounds because it all boiled down to the hunters ability
Many of these hunters shot in excess of 30 deer a day, I know one gentleman who shot 106 in just over an hour
Cheers

Well, you guys know the truth. If more people read that article and shunned the 250, that would be more for me. Before my 99 I hunted with a marlin336 in 35. I used to shoot my deer through the front shoulders. Can't run on two broken legs. The first deer I shot with my 250 I used the same hold, and the deer took off. Follow up shot hit it at the base of the neck. The 100 gr Remington CL did not penetrate the shoulder blade(Actually, I think my first couple boxes of ammo were Winchester Silver Tips) . It did turn that whole shoulder into a black mass of jelly. Now I aim behind the shoulder or in the eye. Both shots work like a bolt of lighting. The old 35 was MODeer accurate. The 250 is MOPI accurate. That's Minute of Pigs Eye, Joe

Yes, that's exactly what I have heard about the .250 and the 87 grain bullet. Seems folks on here use it with authority though.

Charles Newton wanted Savage to introduce the caliber with a 100 grain bullet at 2800 fps because it was more effective on deer size game but Savage stuck with the 87 so they could advertise it as the first commercial cartridge to exceed 3000 fps. David

In hindsight and public opinion, it seems the 1-14 twist did/is doing more damage to the 250 than anything. I've used 1-10" 100 grain 250's to kill deer and bear and they work. Not "340 Weatherby fast" on the bear, but dead, with prejudice.
If I hunted with a 250 I'd be very careful about shot placement and probably not take the "riskier" shots at running game, etc.
As a rule, it seems like the guys that hunt with the smaller cartridges are more careful about their shooting, probably due to necessity, no? Wouldn't surprise me if they had higher percentage of kills as a result.

Proper shot placement and a well constructed bullet work every time. Shoot a deer in the foot with a 458 and you end up with a three footed deer running around. With todays bullets it's more about shot placement that 87 gr or 100 gr.

Yep, I had that same exact thing happen to me when hunting with a 99C in 284.

Never occurred to me that the 284 was underpowered. Just occurred to me to quit shooting thick bones with expanding bullets.

I saw Fireball's statement of shot placement and taking care to ensure that.

Think about that.

You're at the range on the bench. Take a breath, let it out. Take another, let some of it out and CAREFULLY press that trigger. WOW, MAN, MAN OH MAN!!!!!!!!!!! Will you JUST LOOK at that group. This gun'l shoot 1" groups all day long. Yet that same guy gets into the woods and takes any shot he has and then blames the rifle/bullet/caliber for the miss. I'll take ANY .250 I own and kill any animal I shoot at deader than a door nail. Now I WONDER why that is????????????

Practice, placement and patience.
If a hunter does these things which includes a pass on a risky shot, he will be successful more times than not.

And you said that WITHOUT a word about rifle/bullet/caliber..........GOOD man........

I never failed to kill a deer with the .222 Remington 788 I had as a kid. Most DRT! I knew I had to make good on placement, no excuses.

Hmm. Killed 2 bucks in just over an hour with my .250 and 100 gr. bullets. First time out. Both bucks took one jump and keeled over. Seemed plenty deadly to them....

If you need to use a small, weak, marginal bullet and cartridge on big game then as you write you must pass up shots and also deal with wounded game.

If that's all you can shoot then too bad.

the OP reminds me of an article I read many years ago, "the british .303 wounded more African game than any other rd."

Probably one of the oldest arguments that comes up whenever two or more hunters get together. Having killed deer for 45 or so years with everything imaginable I found pretty much anything works. The couple I lost were admittedly hit badly for which I have nobody to blame but myself- each time was with a cartridge more than suitable for the job, .30-06 and 6.5x55 for example.

LBK hit it- there's no substitute for experience in the woods. Experience gained from sitting at the shooting bench (or at the computer) means very little when it comes to putting the bead on the right spot on an animal that seldom presents a classic side-on perfect shot to you.

Personally all this debate over which bullets kill and which ones don't has me tired out. I think I shall switch to hand grenades fired by potato cannons next year. Or maybe one of those net throwing cannons they used to use on Wild Kingdom.

Interesting anecdote: when Stewart Edward White went on his extended safari in Africa in 1913, he carried one of the very first Springfield sporters in .30-06. His bullet of choice was the government full metal jacket, proclaiming that it was the one bullet that gave the most consistent kills over the course of killing dozens and dozens of animals. (I theorize that it had as much to do with the poor quality of jacketed hunting bullets available at the time as anything else. Materials, design, and quality of manufacture of jacketed bullets have improved dramatically since those dark days. That fact probably bears on the original subject of why the early .250-3000 87gr. bullet got a bum rap as a killer, a lot more so than its weight.)

The 3 P's apply to riflemen, archers or playing marbles.
Depends upon which game you choose and what level of challenge you are looking for.

Posted by a guy with less practical experience than many. What's the solution Don? Shoot 'em with a Mannlicher in 358? That would, of course, beg the question of how many legal deer a guy from CT actually sees when he is hunting in a game-poor environment like VT.

Jeff

Not to piss in the corn flakes here but most of us have a lot more opportunities to "pass" on risky shots than our fathers and grandfathers did, especially here in the NE.

Nobody passed on risky shots and I suspect that is still the case for some. When you and your kids are hungry, that is easy to say and hard to do when that might be the only legal (or illegal) deer you see all year. The only risk you take by not shooting is not getting your piece of meat. 100% of the shots you don't take...result in no game.

Which begs the question, what will the 250 do that the 300 can't do better? A consideration back in the day when most people could only afford to own one rifle.

There are a lot of variables to consider.

Price wise, I believe that one of the reasons that Winchester 94 carbines in 30-30 are so common across the U.S. is that they were always significantly less expensive than a comparable Savage 1899/99. Before the advent of telescopic sights, the "advantages" of side ejection that Marlin and Savage could claim were more theoretical than practical. Or so it seems to me.

Also, prior to the post-WW2 economic boom, few people had sufficient income that allow them to travel far from home to hunt. I grew up in rural New Hampshire and often went hunting by walking out the back door or walking out the back door, going to the garage, and getting the Honda CT-90 into action.

Jeff

Randy
The 250 will Shoot or Travel Flatter than a 300, and I Think a Bit More Distance.Just My 2 Cents.

But Heck I can Do Just as well with a 22,. And Many Have Killed Some Large Game With a 22

Sorry to disagree Steve, but that is baloney.

The 30 cal will shoot just as far, drift less and deliver more energy down range than the 25 cal. The very reason that most militaries in the world use the 30 cal as a long range sniper rifle.

Not saying the 250 isn't capable of taking game, just saying the 300 is better at it than the 250 is.

I shot an antelope last fall at 300 yards with my 300 in a 30+ mile an hour crosswind. Knowing that my 150 gr bullet dropped 10" at 300 yards I held 6" over the root of his tail and delivered the 30 cal ball behind the front shoulder.

I could have easily shot a box of 250 shells trying to hit that antelope under those conditions.

In his book, "Shots at Whitetails," published in 1940, Lawrence R. Koller had great praise for the Savage 250-3000. But he too stressed the importance of a well placed shot.

Just face it you guys, the 250 don't work!

If it is/was marginal there are a lot of those Eskimo's that have being doing it wrong for a long time.

Just sayin.

Eskimos used to kill game with spears, but they traded them in for guns...cause they are more versatile and work better.

The 300 is more versitile and works better than the 250.

Cracks me up that when somebody points out that something is better than what they got or like...they get all defensive and pizzed.

The 250 does work...the 300 just works better.

Just sayin.

yes he did and it's a great book. and if you read more Koller books he mentions handloading 117gr. bullets to use in his M1920 Savage.

Just for fun I put a couple of typical combinations through Hornady's online ballistics calculator. I compared an .257" 87 grain flat base at 3000 fps vs. a .308" 150 grain flat base at 2600 fps, both of which are quite common combinations for the respective cartridges.

I set them as zeroed at 200 yards, and put in a 30 mph crosswind. Guess what? At 300 yards the 87 grain bullet drops 2.4" less, and has 1.1" less wind drift.

So your last statement may be a bit hyperbolic.

If you follow Larry Koller, this may interest you. According to Paul Koller, Larry's Son, Larry had at least four 1920 and 20/26 rifles; a 1920 that he used with the Lyman #54 peep sight, a 1920 that he modified to allow for a Lyman Alaskan to be mounted via a Weaver "N" mount (this is the one I have), a 1920 that had been rebarreled to 228-250 (Paul thought that Risley did the work some time after he'd made a 228-250 for Harvey Donaldson, 'chuck hunters talk), and a 20/26 in 300 that he used with the Lyman #54. Paul told me that Larry had a 40 or 45 SuperSporter that he'd rebarrel in 219 Zipper during WW2 and that it was his favorite 'chuck rifle unless he got a Remington 722 in 222 Magnum.

Jeff

Ah... the old online balistics calculator.

Can't argue with that. Hyperbolic or not, can't think of too many experienced rifleman that would opt for a 25 instead of a 30 in a 30 mph crosswind.

Maybe based on your ground breaking info the US Army which doesn't know much about this and hasn't done much thinking on it, will consider giving up the 7.62 Nato which was developed from the 300 Savage and consider the 250 Savage as it's new long range sniper rifle.

Not likely. Guessing they looked into it and decided that the 30 cal was the best choice.

You want to hunt with a 250 instead of a 300 in heavy wind...I am not going to try and stop you.

What were we talking about anyways?

Hang in there guys, just a few more weeks until spring.

Rod

Actually in a heavy wind I'll opt for a 243 with a sleek bullet and smoke both of them.

I don't know how much 99guy gets out and shoots, but I've put about about 800 rounds downrange in the last month.

There is no real argument of which cartridge is "better", there are many and they are all different. Pro's and con's of each depending upon what we are doing.
Some are faster, flatter, more power, etc. The point is we pick one for our purpose, dial it in and give it a go. Squirrels, grouse, deer, elk, elephants it doesn't matter.

What is really interesting about 99's and the 250 in particular is that when introduced it was the first 3000 fps ever. And that could do a lot of things a Winchester and a lot of others never could.

Personally I get a charge out of knowing what I have, what it can do and use it as such. And if that means not taking a shot in a small window of opportunity for whatever reason, so be it. The year is 2014 not 1914, meat is not an issue. If it is for you, sell your rifle(s) and buy beef, it's cheaper that way.

So true. Guess we need to take a deep breath. Thanks for the reminder.

And guess what..a 250Sav 87gr at 3000fps has 1115fp energy at 200yds and 882fp at 300. A 300Sav 150gr starting at 2600 has 1502fp of energy at 200yds and 1215fp at 300.Killed deer with both.If I had one to pick for Whitetail's..300 hand's down.

Shoot a deer in the chest with an expanding bullet moving fast enough to open up, which the 87 started at 3000 is easily doing at 300, and foot pounds won't really tell the tale.

Besides, my post was addressing the hyperbole about the great difficulty of making a hit with the 250, when in fact the hit is easier to make with it.

I actually love the 300 and happily use it, but not for BS bluster reasons. My 300 is a Remington 700 Classic, and it happily digests long seated 168 grain VLD Bergers which puts it a bit outside of typical 300 Savage loads.

I'll take the expanding bullet and the foot pounds.

All of this logic I'm seeing explains all the idjits I see during public sight in day with the 300 WSM's and 338's.

Cuz, no real rifleman would choose a mediocre round like the 300 Savage or 308 when they can have one of them whiz-bang magnums!

So I guess we don't want to talk about how many whitetails I killed with my Ruger Super Single Six. Since the statute of limitations has run out by now I don't mind.

Kennu
Your Probabbly right.
With all said
The Price On a 250 Will Drop! and the Price on a 300 will rise!

.300 would be great, if you can't get a .308.

Just kidding when I said the 250 don't work. Worked good for me,15-20 times.
You still have to hit them in the right spot, with anything!!

Did it ever occur to anyone to ask the deer how they felt on the subject? I heard reports that they are finally getting organized and arming themselves. Deer union meetings are taking place in the deer caves as we speak. I understand their biggest point of discussion is what calibers are best for use on hunters. Let's hope they don't reach a consensus or we'll be in a lot of trouble...

If they choose the 250 we're screwed.

"Those that are here know why they're here. And those that aren't here know why they're not!!!"

I love one of LBK's tag lines above...I love to read this stuff. Great hullabaloo! I personally have taken many deer and feral hogs, one caribou and one PH antelope, most on my wall or in my freezer, taken with either my 99EG or 99A-saddle in 250svg with 100gr rem C-lkts and some were right at 200yds when shot. (Only two I can recall took more than one shot). Would I want to hunt moose, bear, elk with it? Probably not since I have 99's in 243, 30-30, 300svg, 303svg and 308. Get'em all and you'll seldom need something else...although I'm in the market now for one of the big bores

Besides the 87g/100g comments that have already been made perhaps we should note that when the 250 was introduced hunting styles were a lot different than they are now. Folks in 1915 weren't likely to be sitting in a box blind. Some techniques that have faded over time were very prevalent, like driving deer and using dogs. While a well placed 87g 250 slug is just fine medicine in my opinion, it leaves a little bit to be desired for shooting at running deer where a shot in the ass is as likely as behind the shoulder.

The 250 is perfect for young girl's,boy's and girlymen.

well now I just have to put my 2 pennies worth in right here.
my father and grandfather could not have been mistaken for girly men at 6'6 and 6'4. during the depression they used a 250 to survive. they shot Colorado elk and mulies and I never heard of a second shot being used. I was raised with placement being a close second word ringing in my ears right after watch that muzzle. is the 250 the end all of cartridges? no but I still use the 250 for what ever I happen to see including elk and wolf. its a 1-14 so really doesn't like over 100's.
85's bang flop. by the way I really am a 30 cal fan. but love the 250 in my f.

Let's talk manpower,how about a pair of 38-55's [img:center][/img] [img:center][/img] [img:center][/img]

hullabaloo plus fantasy...can't beat that for good humor!

I'll up your pressure and see you with a pair of .375's and a 358 kicker.

Nice!Love the big bore's.50yds,255gr cast. [img:center][/img]

man you are hurting me here! and me with just my social insecurity, love your wepons!

Wow nice shooting! The big bores sure are accurate.



OK, I'll concede it's time for some new pitchers. The darn 375's are $5 a shot at todays ammo prices!!!

fireball, what would a guy have to give for a 375 now a days?
wish my Winnie 375 would shoot like that!

Around $1000, give or take, depending on the wind that day.

sigh!!!!!!!!!!!!
can't get that much for what I want to sell, which is nothing, why is it we only want to buy? lol
could sell my 250 and 284 but then I wouldn't have them and I really like them. oh well there is always the lotto.

284 is all you need! Whatdaya got? How's it shoot for ya? I'm just getting rolling on mine. Shot a great first group yesterday with Speer 145 BTSP.

A little more than $1K for this 375.Just wiped factory grease off it.Did someone say 284?(middle) [img:center][/img] , [img:center][/img] [img:center][/img]

Why stop at .375 caliber? I want me a .40 or .45 something-or-other. I wonder if a .458 American (.458x2") could be shoehorned into a 99? Perhaps a .300 blown out straight to .45 or thereabouts, headspaced on the case mouth a l� the automatic pistol cartridges? Just talking nonsense here, as I don't see myself confronting any beasts that a .22 HiPower or a .30-30 won't knock silly.

99f 284 from 1965. shoots good but I had the devils own time getting brass. tried some 6.5/284 necked but had all sorts of trouble there. finally got win 284 bras and been smooth sailing since. haven't shot it or loaded for it lately as I ran out of $$ and bullets at the same time. my 250 is an f also.

Well i got a 450 Alaskan on a 71 Win . one of the original ones Harold Johnson made in coopers landing Alaska ,back in the 50,s, if that one dont make it i also got a custom Remington model 700 in 458 Win. by Harry Lawson. i could load the 458 with birdshot !!!

Expecting trouble?

sooner or later !!!!

I have an 1899CD in 40-55, rebored from 38-55 to shoot lead 40-82 bullets.

Jeff

Loggah does know wooly mammoths and dinosaurs are extinct don't he. lol
withal the genetic crap going on wish they could bring back some new shooting stock.
fine rifles all.

We saw a magnum headsize cartridge in a 99 on here last year... Don't know if it worked, but someone built one.

the way 99 stocks crack at the tang I wonder if a magnum cartridge would make toothpicks?
i'll bet a guy could neck up the fat bodied 284 and have something that would sing!

shot at a small armadillo this afternoon at 75 yds with my 250EG with 100gr clkt and the bullet bounced off its armor and hit a squirrel. When I got to it, the squirrel had caught it between its teeth and was laughing at me...just ain't no firepower in a 250svg so guess I'll have to go to a 416 rigby

No need for to break out the 416...300 would have killed that armadillo grave yard dead.

Just sayin

99Guy: "No need for to break out the 416...300 would have killed that armadillo grave yard dead. Just sayin"

gee I never thought of that, now I can buy another savage

Can't think of a better reason for a new 99.

Everybody should have a 99 armadillo gun...or two

How about this dreamer?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=398337541

I understand that the Russians are going to start selling a depleted uranium sabot round for the 250-3000 that will make 4K muzzle velocity and superior penetration on seven band armadillos. So fast that the innards are sucked out the off-side hole and so hot that the remaining 'dillo parts are dried and ready to display on a side table.

Jeff

That guy on GB is smoking crack.

4k and e can't manage more than 2 pictures? guy needs the mone for whatever he's been smoking.

Guy is a dreamer with such a high reserve. Why do people do that? Seems like they don't really want to sell it.

Yeap that rifle screams with condition and worth what ever somebody wants to pay, New In the Box, How many left around?

Hey, don't go changing my post! I said dreamer not screamer!

I fixed it!

back to the 250 , GUESS I should have read the thread before cause I just bought 3 of them and a 22HP am I under gunned If I line them all up to aim at minute of deer and fire all at once will it b DRT

norm

It's a shame that the deer I've killed with a .250 haven't read this thread, if they had, they be alive today. That said, I just picked up a 99a in .250 for my 12 yr old to hunt with this year. Should be a good year.

I was hoping to hunt with my 1920 in 250 this year, guess I'll have to drag out the 300 Sav or 358 Win to make sure they stay dead. Guess the 243 will stay in the safe also.

Steve

First of all. Do NOT choose a 1920 in 250-3000 to kill a deer with. They are just not accurate enough.




Second piece of advice is NEVER use a Hornady 87 grain spire point. They are a varmint bullet and will NOT perform on deer size game.

Good point, well taken!!

Steve

This guy was shot with a 250.Went to take off then I shot him with a 300. [img:center][/img]

To hear tell around the internet, deer now require at least a .300 magnum, minimum. I don't see how we ever got along with just .250's, .30-30's, .50-110's, and .470 NE's, etc.

Once again sounds more like a "bullet" issue than anything to do with the cartridge. I suspect any issues would be resolved by sticking a 100 gr Partition or similar in the 250.

Reading some of this is interesting....I recall the first few very early trips to Wyoming where the ranchers "elk rifle" was an ancient and abused 99 Takedown in 250-3000...it had a hunk of tire screwed on as a makeshift recoil pad;no bluing and no stock finish remaining.Iron sights,no scope.

I was incredulous...until the elk carcasses started hitting the barn and I recall nights out there with flashlights and a beer, digging 100 gr Silvertips out of elk carcasses.

Still not my idea of an elk cartridge(I bought the rancher a 270),but it is amusing when you see someone describe the 250 as a girls cartridge,worthless on a little old deer....that Wyoming cowboy is rawhide tough and has killed more elk and deer with the 250 Savage than many of us have had a chance to hunt.

The 87 grain Speer Hot Cor takes care of business for the 14" twist 250's out there.

Bob, for the older 250's, a 100 gr Partition isn't going to solve any problems. I tested it, the suckers are too long and can hit the paper going sideways (1935 99T in 250) at 100 yards or 7"-8" groups (99R/99EG).

Now, if you trim them down a bit to be short enough, you end up with a pretty decent 98gr Partition that should shoot just fine for hunting.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7215048/1

Calhoun I shot them in a Ruger M77...never in a 99. They were fine in the Ruger.So I stand corrected.

Why do you suppose those old 100 gr Silvertip factory loads worked. Is that bullet shorter?

75gr X did that boy in. [img:center][/img]

Why not just purchase a 90 grain bullet? Barnes makes one that looks good and has great reviews. Will that work in the 99's with the 14" twist rate?

Bob, the 100gr factory loads do feature a shorter bullet than most. Works well enough in most older rifles.

1899guy, the Barnes 90gr bullet I believe is still too long to stabilize in a 1 in 14" twist 250-3000. It's not the weight, it's the length - and the monometal bullets tend to run longer than the copper/lead bullets.

This would work if the 250 Savage has a 1-10 " ROT. If in a 1-14" ROT a 100 grain Partition is too long and so are most of the .257 caliber 100 grains I have tried.

Old style Partition is 1.05 inches and new style is 1.035 inches.

Some of the 1-14" ROT 99s I have loaded for will handle the old Speer 100 grain spitzers at .937 inches and Speer HotCor 100 grain at .940 inches.

roundoak I guess I did not read this with reference to the 99's.I was talking more about the cartridge...I have only had a Ruger bolt gun in 250 Savage.So, yes I guess longer bullets would be a problem for the lever rifles.

Calhoun, excuse my ignorance but would I trim the front or the back of the bullet. tried 100's in my 250 and they key holed at 50 and cleared the backstop at 100. have a good supply and would like to use them. other option is to buy a 25-06 but can't right now.

Buying another rifle is ALWAYS your best option.

yeah but have had the wife for 48 yrs and am kinda leery of her wrath until the weather warms up and I can sleep alone.lol

did they ever put a 257 Roberts in the 99?

You should be able to trim either end and have it work. On the Partitions I just filed off the exposed lead nose in front of the copper case and that was enough to make a huge difference on accuracy. And since I wasn't planning on taking 400 yard shots with a 250, I wasn't too worried about how it would change the BC.

Nope.

thanks! gonna give them a try.

Yep I went hunt deer with a 460 weatherby an the deer ran off after 3 hits to the front shoulders . need a bigger gun

The 257 Roberts will fit in the 99C detachable magazine, but the magazine limits the COAL such that some factory ammo might not fit.

The 257AI will also fit, but the sharp should causes it not to feed as smoothly as the standard 257.

Jeff