I am about to get running in a 45/70 again and I am wondering what your experiences have been with Beartooth bullets.

In particular I am looking at the 405 LFN.

Applications would be for lopes/deer/bear/elk.

Your thoughts please?

Thx

Mark D

Do it........LFN's penetrate the deepest....

Mark, the bullets are great. I've used them in .35 and .45 with no complaints. Just leave plenty of time for your order. Sometimes production lags which makes sense when you consider its basically a one man shop. You ought to see the groups their slugs make from my Marlin 336 in .35 that I bought from Idared on this site. I'll exercise the common courtesy to not ever show those groups to Larry. I have to seat them deeper than they're intended but all's fine using the Lee Factory crimp die. Good bullets but be patient. Ward

I think the Cast Performance 405 grain WLNGC work better, have a broader meplat, and you don't have to wait 4 months to get them.

How so does it work better?

Sounds like you've some experience with them, how many elk and bruins have you taken with them and tell me about the worked.

Many thx

Mark D

Why the 405 grain and not the 425 grain?There is a loooong wait on the 405 grain Beartooth and if it has to be 405 grains(I wonder why),I believe Jackfish is correct.

Just curious.

Jayco

Mark

The Beartooth 405 grain cast has a Meplat of .310 while the Cast Performance 405 grain has a Meplat of .360.The Meplat is what the Cast Honcho's call smack on impact.I decided long ago if I was ever going to use cast bullets in my 45-70 "for hunting",they would be of the largest Meplat available and in the bullet weights I chose,that would be Beartooths 425 and 525 grain cast with .374/.375 Meplats.

I just don't see any advantage to a 405 grain compared to a 420 grain and one only has to read Garretts web page to see what they are capable of taking at some astounding ranges.

If it is velocity your after then a 300 grain Nosler PP would be a better choice or even the 300 grain Speer Unicore(2350 fps in a 22" barrel from Buffalo Bore) at 2300 fps in a Guide Gun.

Jayco

No particular reason other than when I looked at their site the other day it appeared that that was the way they thought people should be looking at.

Perhaps I read it wrong, personally I don't really care which one I would use, if the 420 is the way to go I will surely go that way.

I wonder why there is such a long wait for the 405's?

Mark D

I wasn't really worried about the speed.

Mark D

Well,that is the Beartooth site and I think they are partial..Ya think.

Why people pick the 405 grain BTB with the smallish Meplat is behond me.Like I mentioned before,if the Cast Performance 405 or 420's sized at .459 shoot accuartely,I would use them over the BTB in the 405 grain weight bullet.Some people have been brain washed a .459 bullet won't shoot accurately in a Marlin Rifle and you have to have a ,460 diameter and lap your barrel 10 zillion times.Not true at all,according to my Guide Gun.

For some reason the 405 grain BTB is in demand and I do not understand it at all and that is why I asked the preference for 405 over 420/425.The larger Meplats makes a better hunting bullet.Garretts 420 Hammerheads touch at 100 yards out of my rifle and I noticed no difference with the 420 Cast Performance I have that is sized to .459.

If 405 grains is what you want,I agree 100% with what Jackfish said.The bullet in the middle of the picture I posted was from two brothers that waited just to long to get there 405 BTB and they bought the Lazer Cast instead.

Jayco

Thx for the info now that I understand the meplat thingy I know which way to go.

Which of the hard cast bullets that you would hunt with are the most readily available for you?

Mark D

I got the 425 and 525 grain Beartooths within the same week I ordered them.One might call them and ask if they have them in stock and order turn around.

If not,Cast Performance is the way to go in my opinion.I ordered mine from Midway but Cast Performance itself is a dollar or so cheaper.

I am very impressed with Cast bullets in my 45-70 but then again I have some North Forks and Noslers also.It is hard to argue the toughness of the North Fork pictured in my avitar shot into a rock pit at 2100+ fps out of my Guide Gun at 50 yards.

I actually don't know what I will choose to hunt with this year.Cast or Premium jacketed.

Jayco

I'd for darn sure like to try the NF's in my rifle to be as well.

Thx for all your help

Do you do much if any spring bruin hunting?

Mark D

I used to hunt Bears all the time and then the wife and son said they didn't want to eat them anymore so I quit hunting them.I do miss it sometimes but I never hunt anything we won't eat.The wife just got a bunch of recipes that call for bear lard and may be giving it another look..One can hope.

Jayco

Jayco-what do you have for a sight on your 45/70? I am gonna pick up one in a week or two and am thinking of going with the XS?

I had two other Guides and sold them both, ok stupid on both counts. Both had Ashleys on them and fiber optic fronts.

Looks like the XS is about the same thing, correct?

I am gonna call Beartooth tomorrow and see if they have any of the 425s ready to ship.

Lastly you mentioned the Nozler, what are your thoughts on that bullet in the advent I can't get my paws on the Beartooths right away?

Many thx for your time

Mark D

There is always some trade offs on everthing including meplats. Wide is good for creating a big permanent wound channel but your rifle has to be able to feed it with out a hitch. Here is what Buffalo Bore Ammunition says about meplats-

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/meplats.htm

Did you see the size of the exit wound a .400 meplat on a .50 cal bullet (from Cast Performance) moving at less than 900 fps made on a bull elk?
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...Board/34/page/1/fpart/all/gonew/1#UNREAD

My guide gun hasn't had a single problem with .33 meplats but my 1886 EL hicups occasionaly with that size. I haven't tried wider meplats yet but I have some on the way. Beartooth is nice in that you can get different sizes and mepalts to try for accuracy and function but all these custom bullets aren't cheap. I like the look of the pile driver jr 425 but I don't know if it will work in my 1886 I am going to try one of these molds when they become available to use up the 300 lbs of lead I have accumulated.

http://gunloads.com/fam/ranchdogmolds/

In either the 1895 Cowboy 26" or my Browning 1886 carbine 20" the 425grain BearTooth bullet over 50.0grains of AA2230 gives 1936fps in the Marlin and 1867fps in the Browning.
(52.0grains of AA2230 gives 27,400cup).

From Montana Elk,Manitoba Moose and Bear,Minnesota deer and bear to NC/SC deer and boar this load is a "critter crumpler"!!!

I've made enough shots on game to forget about even looking for a bullet to NOT exit!
Breaking both shoulders on Black Bear,Elk,Deer and Boar is a gimmie at the drop of the hammer!

I helped trail up a poorly shot spike bull(7mmSTW/162grain Hornady BTSP)three years back and made a going away at a quartering angle shot with the Marlin.
Right about the last rib on the on-side the bullet entered and exited the off-side shoulder(both lungs and a smashed shoulder)dropping the spike into a rolling cartwheel!



I aint got all the bells and whistles of a Magnum with a huge piece of glass on top but if you do your part and get close enough(thats why they call it going hunting and not going shooting)it works just great!

Mike

Mike thx for the thoughts, I kind of think that something like this would be about model perfect for hunting up north of DL...grins

Dober

Balvarik

That is a misprint..I called them on there data and it is supposed to read 37,400 CUP not 27,400 CUP..I figured they would have corrected it by now.I also have an e-mail from them stating the same thing.

If you look at the rest of the data,you can tell it is out of place..

Jayco

Guys, this may sound stupid but in a 30/30 do you ever run a hard cast and or is it better to just run a standard bullet?

Thx

Mark D

Jayco,
Thank you.
It still work's great!
Mike

So far, only for small game like rabbits and grouse, but I got to think that at 100-150 yards a 180ish hard cast at say 2000 - 2200 fps ought to dump a deer pretty handy -- kinda like a 300 Savage.

I am just trying to start reloading for my .45/70 Marlin. I have been told that the Beartooth 425gr. & 525 gr. can be loaded with 50-53grs. of H322 with Starline brass & Win.primers. I am just wondering if anyone has loaded these and with what results.

I don't see why a decent cast bullet in the 30-30 wouldn't work well. I haven't shot much with the smaller cast bullets, but have seen what they do a few times and know that they are decent choices especially if you can introduce them to bone structure in an animal. That is a lights out scenario.

There are several factors involved in how a hard cast bullet will work - or not work - well. The meplat is important, but not to the exclusion of other things. The profile of the bullet's nose is at least as important. The forward edge of the driving band is an additional tissue disrupting factor when the profile is correct. If the profile is simply radiused or angled to meet the diameter of the bullet, then obviously the meplat is all you have to consider. A round nosed, non-expanding bullet OTOH, which has neither flat meplat nor driving band surface, can slip right through stuff with minimal disruption, the actual diameter of the bullet notwithstanding. A few years back, I shot a hare in the head with a hard cast from a 358 Winchester. The bullet was Lyman's single current offering for .358 rifles, the 200 grain RN. At 22 Mag speed, that bullet hit the hare forward of the eyes (broadside), drilled clean hole through the sinus/nasal area, and failed to kill directly. That little critter regained his feet and hopped around confused until I planted another bullet in him. Cast a bit soft that same bullet would likely have worked as well as the similar shaped 458 caliber 385 grainer RN (Lyman) has worked in years past when I used it on deer and a black bear. The bear took a broadside shot through the shoulders and that soft RN exitted through a silver dollar sized hole.

Flat nosed hard casts do work though. The bottom line to remember, of course, is that it must pass two crucial tests first; will it go where you point it, and will it reliably feed so that you can shoot it when you must? If those two questions can't be answered affirmatively, then all else is moot.

Mark:

Just for sh*ts and giggles, I'd post your question on the Leverguns.com forum, as well:

http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2

Literally tons of knowledge over there regarding cast.

Good luck,
scott

I'm a big fan of the Beartooth bullets and use them in my Guide gun. I currently shoot the 405s but my next box will be the 425 pile dr jrs. All my kills have been on smallish alabama whitetails, but it flat hammered them

Logcutter-

What is the story on Lazer Cast. Is this an adequate elk bullet in 425-gr?

Goodnews

Funny you ask..Not to long ago I worked up there 430 grain Lazer Cast.I didn't expect the results I got.I am impressed.I had a problem getting there crimp groove not to suck up the brass but finally backed off to 1/2 turn on the Lee crimp for a slightly longer OAL.

Edited to add what I forgot:
Garretts 420 grain Hammerhead had an OAL of 2.537 and the final loads for the Lazer Cast had an OAL of 2.513.

That day in 60 degree weather with Starline Brass/CCI#34 primers and Reloder-7 I got:
Garretts 420 Hammerhead gave me 1839 fps that day out of my Guide Gun as a rough comparison load.
43 grains=1723 fps
44 grains=1769 fps
45 grains=1824 fps
46 grains=1868 fps (As far as I wanted to take it in my Guide Gun)

Beartooth 425(Left)Lazer Cast 430 (Center)Cast Performance 420(Right)


This bullet is very similar to Buffalo Bores 430 cast from Hunters Supply.

Jayco

Logcutter-

I mispoke; I have the 405-gr bullets. I bought a Guide Gun a couple of monthes ago and I was simply surprised the first time out to the range with the superb accuracy and with several factory loads.

I ended up with 500 405-gr Lazer Cast bullets in a trade for handloading and I couldn't glean too much from their website nor Cabela's little advertisement blurb. I wonder how they rate among other casts for hardness. For example, would this be a penetrator on elk?

I note you use R7; others recommend H4198 (several manuals). Thanks.

Gdv

oops!!!

Any of the cast,including Lazer cast will penetrate well on Elk or anything else for that matter as long as you don't over drive them in velocity.Personally,I won't drive a cast past 1850 fps and they all do there best work at 1600 fps(impact velocity) or lower.There a hard bullet.

As far as powders go..You would be much better served with H-322 or RL-7 than H-4198.RL-7 will give a lower pressure for the same velocity or a higher velocity with the same pressure in most cases.Every pressure test I have seen except the 525 grain BTB bullet with H-4895,RL-7 gave the best performance for pressure.

Most cast users like H-322 and I have some 420 and 550 grain loaded with it also but I prefer RL-7 and "especially" Starline brass..In the Winchester and Starline Brass I have the primer sits almost double in depth in Starline than in Winchester..This is with CCI#34 primers in the lott I have..The ones I just loaded(525 grain and 420 grain cast) the primer depth in Starline brass is .0110 compared to .0037 with Winchester and CCI-200's I have my 300 Noslers loaded in and I use the Lee press to seat my primers firmly.I only use Winchester brass for jacketed bullets now and Starline for cast.Wish I would have went Starline from the Get-Go.

Owe well..I have a ton of it and haven't found any that trim to 2.10 that Hodgdons recommends for there data..

Jayco

Here's one of several articles on cast in the .30-30 by Paco Kelly:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3030varmint.htm

Anything Paco writes is the fruit of a lot of experience. I've tried a lot of his suggestions for casting & reloading, and so far he's never steered me wrong. YMMV.

Been using BTB for years out of my 444. Everything dies quick. Excellant customer service....check out their web site.