Wow. Not much here on this subject. I read the links up in the other posts, and I am a bit confused. I took some Goex FFg -- 70.0 grains on the scale, and by volume. It fills the case. When it is tapped down, here is what it looks like.



Here is a picture of the bullet I am loading - a 405 grain wheel weight water quenched tumble lubed.



Hardly seems like there is enough room to use a grease wad in there. Tell me -- will these things work without a wad? Looks to me like the powder will be compressed between 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch without the wad.

What am I missing here?

There are a few problems with your approach, including tumble lubing and not using a wad. A .45-70 is limited in space to take a grease cookie, but you might be able to do so by seating the bullet out pretty far. You don't mention using a drop tube, but that is an essential step in loading black. Before you go much further with your efforts, check out this free tutorial. It's a bit dated, but contains lots of good useful info. You might also check out the Shiloh Rifle forums, perhaps do a search or several. A lot of experienced BPCR shooters are regulars there.

http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf

If you have other specific questions, I'll be glad to try to help.

I just got back from a morning at the range with a factory .45-70 I just acquired. All my shooting was at 300 yards, and my worst group was just over 6" and my best just over 3" or one MOA. For the first time I am trying paper patched bullets, no lube, and about 82 grains of Swiss 1.5 black powder going about 1300 fps. These are long range target loads, and wouldn't work for hunting, too fragile.

Good shooting!

Paul

I use a drop tube made out of 3/8 copper tube about 18 inches long. Pour slow and it helps pack it down.

Doc

I know a guy who made a drop tube out of an aluminum arrow shaft. Easy to make one out of just about any old tubing.

Paul

Here's a current thread about .45-70 loading on the Shiloh forum:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17550

Paul

Thanks, men.

Yes, check out the Shiloh forum. Get a compression die and pack that powder down. One can run as much as he likes as long as he does not ballooon the cartridge.

Paul: I had to look twice at your earlier post.....you can get 82 grains of powder into a 45-70 case? I thought for a moment that it was 62....cleaned my glasses.
Over at the Shiloh link there was this note - a different powder and granulation but still...

What kind of compression are you using with 82 grains of the finer Swiss powder and that big bullet?
No Lube? I lube the paper by hand, like you'd apply lube to a case being sized beeswax and olive oil.
I use pp bullets that I swage on a Corbin press to 480 grains.
Even with a 18" drop tube, i am at 70 grains tops. Bullets seated by finger into unsized cases,grease cookie, light crimp.
With all that, your best groups are better than mine.
Pete

Yes, I can get 82 grains of Swiss 1.5 in my .45-70 cases, and the load isn't compressed all that much. I use one or even two .060 wads.

The trick is a vibrating drop tube; couldn't do this without it. The bullet is finger seated to a depth of only about .150, and lightly crimped. Like I said earlier, it wouldn't work for hunting. I've tried two bullets, that patch to .451 or .452, and you can feel them slide into the barrel as you chamber your round. You can't extract a loaded round without leaving the bullet in the bore. When you think about it, this is almost like the breech seating that the Schuetzen shooters employ.

Paul

Yes, it does sound very Schuetzen-like.
You are patching bullets to .452". Is that correct? Or patching .452" to a larger diameter?
Do you have land and groove diameters for your rifle handy?
Bullet weight?
Pete

.452 as patched is correct. Bullets are .442 and .444 respectively, and the paper is .0025, so the patched bullet rides the bore. My rifle is a new-to-me Browning .45-70, with an unmodified chamber. A .451+ pin gage will fit down the muzzle, but a .452- gage wont go, so I guess the Badger barrel is about .451 and a few tenths. Reading Wayne McClerren's book on the Brownings, I learned that for whatever reason Browning chambered the .45-70 with almost no leade or freebore, so the rifling pretty much starts at the chamber. This led me to think it might work well with paper patched bullets. So far it seems promising, but I haven't shot it all that much yet. I have gotten groups just over one MOA at 200 and 300 yards, but I need to shoot more to verify and fine tune. I'm hoping to make this my long range target rig.

I apply the patches dry, with no lube anywhere. Of course, I have to wipe my bore between shots. Tedious, but in most long range match formats you have time to get it done.

I'm still a novice at this paper patching business, but so far it's been interesting.

Bullets weigh about 514 and 539 grains respectively, 16:1 alloy for the former and 20:1 for the latter.

Paul

Powder capacity can also be a function cartridge brand. Some have thicker/thinner walls and capactiy will vary. New brass (sized to minimum specs), and the practice of full length resizing can also reduce capacity.

Keith yes you can get by without a wad, if you don't leave the cartridge loaded very long.
Easiest thing in the world to compress 70+ grs of 2f blackpowder into a 45-70 case. Just slow pour the powder into the case, then place your wad on top, and run the cartridge into a Lyman M die or Rcbs M style expander die with the expander set to compress the powder to the level you need to seat the bullet without and undue pressure on the nose.
If you're using a good bullet with a proper bp lube there's little need for a grease cookie.
Patched bullets are best when patched to just under bore diameter.

Thanks, my friend. I have grown to trust your advice. Always seems to ring true. Appreciate it. I don't plan on hunting it, just doing a little informal shooting and personal arget stuff, maybe only out to 200 yards. Hard to find a shot much longer than that up here in the bush.

Always glad to help if I can..
Keep us up to date on your grand experiment.
Just spent the past week shooting bpcr with some good folks from Canada. There's a sillouete shoot at Bethune Sask, you might be interested in going to take a look at if you have the time.

Probably 12-14 hours each way, so I might have to look for something a but closer. Thanks.

Yep that's a fair piece to drive. Not real familiar with the activities up that direction, but will let you know of anything I hear about.
What rifle are you going to be shooting this load combo in?

For those who might be interested, here is a pic of a full length sized.45-70 Starline case charged with 82.0 grains of Swiss 1.5, Lot #150-506. It was dropped through my vibrating drop tube setup. It has not been compressed. As can be seen, there is ample room for a .060 wad, and a bit of compression.

Starline brass is probably the heaviest of cases, with the least capacity. Just as case brands vary in capacity, so does the density of different powders, and even lots within the same brand and granulation.

Just the way I do it and what works for me.

Paul

Just an H&R Buffalo Classic with the 32" bbl. It has proven accurate with lead and jacketed bullets, so I am just looking to see if it will shoot BP as well. Plus it will be easier to clean than my Marlin 1895.

It'll shoot the bp just fine. You'll need to use some lube other than the LLA tho, that stuff will leave a god awful goo mess with bp.

Ranch13:
A question on compression... When I started BPCR with my 45-90, I was initially compressing powder and wad. Folks on the Shiloh forum suggested I should compress powder only with wads/cookies etc installed as the slug was seated. I took their advice and stopped compressing the wad. Thoughts seemed to be that the compressed wad would be less forgiving and not as effective. Since wads are being hit with several thousands of pounds of pressure in the cartridge during the firing process anyway, is there really any difference?

I once pulled some loads apart when I was stepping up in charge and ballooned a couple cartridges. While I did not measure anything, those compressed wads were certainly thinner and more brittle than those fresh from the package.
Your thoughs???

I seriously doubt it makes much difference on the target, but it might.
The main thing to keep in mind with this stuff, there's really no wrong way to do most of it. It boils down to whatever works for you and your rifle.
Some folks try to make this bpcr stuff something akin to the base of Einsteins theory,,, they can make it that hard if they want to but there's a ton of things I rather spend my time on.
After you shoot enough paper patch bullets, see the accuracy and recovered bullets alot of the stuff folks go on and on and on and onnnnn about is pretty meaningless.
Keep it simple and keep life happy.

I use a homemade concoction of lard and bees wax in my flinter. Is that suitable in your experience? I don't see keeping a whole whack of loaded ammo around for any length of time, and this lube seems pretty stiff.

Only way to tell is to use it. If you get alot of hard fouling and leading, or if it melts enough to contaminate the powder charge, you know it's not working.
I'ld add a dab of jojoba or Sagebrush gun oil and maybe a touch of parrafin to it.

Thank-you, Sir.

You're welcome sir.

1minute,

Not meaning to butt in here.

I have loaded the 45/90 for a few years and even with Swiss powders, I find a little compression is ok. My target loads get about 0.100" compression with the Lyman Postel 535 gr. bullet when cast 20:1. This load will produce +-8" groups at 600 yards, on a good day, from a rifle with a 18" twist barrel. I use Starline cases, mostly.

Jim

Back about 7 years ago I shot myself into Master Class in BPCR Silhouette using a pretty heavily compressed charge of 73g of 3E Swiss in my 45-70 with 530g bullets.

As I recall the compression was just under .300"

The gun shot as well as any I have ever owned with that load- just over 1 MOA for 10 straight shots,blow tubed- no cleaning.

My usual load is 75grs of 3F Swiss in 45/70. I've had 80grs before and it worked great. All in Starline cases. Drawback to 80grs is I got some spring back over time but just had to re-compress it and was good to go. Starline brass is my favorite and can take the compression because of it's thicker walls. Very consistent dimensions on that brass. Lee snot will put a mess in your barrel. Beeswax, crisco, jojoba, canola oil or olive oil in proper proportions is the way to go. No petroleum products in the lube and you should do well.

I just loaded up one round as I have decided it is too much trouble to do the BP thing. I shot it, and was pleased with the recoil and everything, and of course one shot didn't foul the barrel too badly.

Thanks for all y'alls help.

It's definitely a labor of love and not for everyone.

This is an update of my earlier post, after some work with the chronograph and the load shown below. This and similar loads are slower than I would have expected. I'm not sure why. 82.0 grs. of Swiss 1.5 Lot 150-506 averages about 1225 fps. With that lot about gone, I switched to Lot 010-508 which at the same volume weighs close to 84 grs. and seems to run maybe 20 fps faster. I say "seems" because of a limited test sample and chrono errors. Boosting the charge to 85.0 grs., about all the Starline case will hold, got me to around 1275. Again, with a sample too small to draw any firm conclusion. All of these were with a .444 diameter 534 gr. BACO Money bullet patched to .451 and a bit. Do paper patched bullets run slower than grease grooved bullets, all other things being equal? I don't know.

These loads are intended solely for long range target shooting, both NRA sanctioned and gong shoots. The main difference is that the sanctioned matches require the use of black powder exclusively, while the non-sanctioned shoots typically permit smokeless or duplex loads. Using up some cases previously charged with 77.0 grs. of Swiss 1.5 and 4.5 grs. of RL-7, the 534 gr. PP bullet went about 1300 and a bit.

I'm not sure there is a formula, and I have no nearby range to test at longer ranges, but my main concern about velocity is the stability of the bullet at 800 yards and beyond out of a 1 in 18" twist barrel. I believe there is a low end velocity limit at some matches. For these reason, my main goal is to achieve at least 1265 fps from an all-BP load. Accuracy is the remaining question.

The journey continues.

Ranch, Pete and I plan to be at Alliance next month. We will be driving my GUSA-mobile, as Pete's F-150 got crunched yesterday, possibly totalled. Nobody hurt, thankfully. Hope to see you and your lady there.

Paul

Paul there is a lowend velocity limit for "pit safety" at the paper matches, usually somewhere around 1200 fps for a 500 gr 45 caliber bullet.
Hope Pete wasn't hurt in the wreck.
See you guys in a month.

Ranch, Pete was with his daughter, and a car ran a flashing red light at a four-way on the edge of Omaha. Nobody was hurt, including a pregnant lady and infant in the car.

However, while they were getting things straighted out, and with a deputy on scene, there was a repeat with two other cars, and it appeared that there were injuries in the second accident.

Sounds like there needs to be some engineering looked at at that intersection.

For Pete's sake, I hope they consider his truck totalled. He's pretty proud of it.

Paul

Well hope they getit all ironed out and you guys can make it to Alliance and have a good time.