[For What It�s Worth Department] Went out today and chronographed some new loads as it was up to 40 degrees, calm and overcast with minimal light on the target. Target is at 120 yards. (Don�t ask �why 120 yards�; it is just what my benchrest range is)
Rifle was my Westley-Richards imitator(#3 Ruger), with the Ron Long barrel in .40-65 RL.
Load was: R-P casings/210M primers/POPWad/53.0 grains on Swiss 1 � /.065 poly wad/ Ron Long 425 grain RN spitzer 20:1 @ 2.885"-OA.

Had loaded 10 rounds, match quality to the best of my ability.
(Note the target below) First two were foulers; they printed as the two high, as expected.
3-4-5-6- dropped into the group. 7- went to right. 8-9- dropped into the group. 10- (last shot) dropped low (with lowest velocity- 1167). Average Velocity was 1176 fps. Max velocity spread was 17 fps. Don�t know what SD was as I bumped the wires and reading dropped�



Not too shabby for a Ron Long barrel and some �old eyes�? Would bet that the two that were �out� would have all been �in� with a better rifleman <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Old eyes or not, looks like 'Minute of Something" to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'd take that afield on any day, good on ya!

What ...no disparaging remarks as of yet?
(I expected a really BIG '$hitt-slide' in response to this post) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

"SOCK-IT-TO-ME" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, let me regroup and try again....

IF I HAD A SHOTGUN THAT PATTERNED THAT BADLY I'D SELL IT TO DAN REAL QUICK!!!

(good one!) ....NEXT!

How about...

ITS A CRYIN' SHAME WHEN YOU GET THE DTs, HUH? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I have never fired this #3 in any match, but have no doubt that it would work very well on Silhouette. I went back in a BPCR publication and noted that a fellow named ODEN shoots a Miller in a Schuetzen match. Apparently he does very well at it...
Can anyone fill me in on the 'F' class? I think it may be the 'unlimited', but do not know what it applies to; anyone <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> ??

Idahjo, I am not sure what you are asking but if it pertains to using the #3 in silhouette it would not be allowed since it is not an original or a copy of a pre-1896 single shot. Silhouette also requires an external hammer. I am sure there are other disciplines that would allow it.

SS

SS: that was my understanding, but there must be something that allows for such as Sharps Borschardt, Miller, Ruger, etc....
Maybe an 'open' class... or a pre-disqualified match or something? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Miller model 'F' Rifles (seriously doubt people are plunking out 6K for something they cannot compete with somewhere <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

Idahjo, now I said the #3 was not kosher for silhouette. The Miller is indeed legal and I have seen them in competition. It sort of meets the requirements in that it is "sort of a reproduction of a pre-1896 action (Farrow)" and it does indeed have a little stub of an external hammer. The #3 is a bit Farquarhson to meet the rules and of course it lacks a hammer.

The Borchardts are legal for Creedmoor, but I don't know about the Ruger. Wanna see a neat old Borchardt? If I can remember how to get a picture, up I'll post mine.

SS

Try this.





SS

Sorry about the size.

SS

Dam, sharpshooter,

You must be from Texas, BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG PICTURE. I happen to like Borchardts. I'm building a 44-90 on a Military action. Most of it's completed. I'm just now completing a 44-70 on an original High-Wall action, a little more finish on the wood and it's done.

idahjo,

You could shoot your rifle in the target catagory of B.P., that's mid range and Creedmoor. Mid Range is 2 3 and 6 hundred yards. Creedmooe is 8-9 and 1000 yards.

Kelley O.

P.S. Crossfire , come out, come out, were ever you are. Alli, alli oxen free.

"Nice" Cushy-chair too (Looks like it has fuzz in one of it's belly-buttons)

Kelly O.; "See your 'BIIIIG Picture' and raise raise you a 'BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGER picture'" [/i] (P.S. I like Borchardts too!)

Kelley, we need pictures of that 44-90.

Idahjo, that's a pretty cool chair but Goldie doesn't allow me on it.

SS

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

e-mail question answered by Mr. Miller:
----- Original Message -----
From: Cyle Miller
To: Info
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Miller model F


A: Yes it will for all BPCR.
Cyle
----- Original Message -----
From: Info
To: Cyle ; steven@DakotaArms.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 8:06 AM
Subject: Fw: Miller model F



----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Walterscheidt
To: info@dakotaarms.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 5:15 PM
Subject: Miller model F


Q: Are there any BPCR classes in which this rifle can be used for competition?
thanks

Idahjo, isn't that what I just said?

SS

This page is SoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooBiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig, is that better, D.D. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Annnnnnnnny Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, Sharpshooter,

I don't know how to post pictures. My wife would teach me except she says her hand hurts after teaching me anything. I wonder if that tapping feeling I get in the back of my head when she trys to teach me something means something. Well I ask her of she'll help me and I'll wear a helmut for protection.

Kelley.

I saw the crossfire opps posted on the up and running site, so I wonder if he's going to abandon us? How do you propose to get him back here?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

SharpShooter: �easy big fellow�, that was your quote and EXACTLY what you said. Just looking at the situation from 360 degrees. Never doubted you for a minute � just trying to figure out, �who, what, when, where, how and why?� someone usually manages to slide in under the �foul line�!!
Even posted the, "IS THE RUGER LEGAL FOR ANYTHING?" question on the BPCR.net Rules and Regulations.

HELL, I wouldn't mind even entering a Silhouette match as a 'DQ' up front... what happens, happens... so what IF it isn't posted in the match records <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

(Presently considering welding a Sharps hammer to the side of the �ole #3 and makin' a faux-Miller outta it� <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />)

Joe, we allow, and encourage " Unclassified" bpcr rigs, at the matches here in Az..........at least in Sierra vista.

Kelley, I haven't gone anywhere, we were just discussing the way 22 Nov. ( yesterday) came and went with no particular comment. Boggy put up a good reflective , and intelligent post, regarding same..........on the Hunter's Campfire.

I'm in no particular hurry to say much of anything , about anything , to anybody here..........at this moment. Kinda organizing a few facts, and waiting to get a heads up, from some of the folks discussed, in foregoing posts.

......................see, a good hunter knows how to WAIT.

DFTFT, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />............... GTC <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Idahjo, I think we are talking past each other. I have posted and agree that the Miller is indeed legal for the BPCR sports. From what I understand the Rugers are not legal in any. It is strange that the Borchardt is not legal in that it was made well before 1896 and meets all the requirements except for the hammer. In a similar vein the Peabody is legal, the Martini is not. I dunno.

Your #3 Westley-Richards would be quite welcome in a silhouette match at my home range of Fort Chadbourne. We're always pleased to have another shooter. You wouldn't get scored with everyone else but you would be recognized for your score and unique rifle.

Does this help any?

SS

Yup, the Hotchkiss ( sp?!), and the '71,'71-'84 bear some scrutiny, too. They were THERE, during the buffalo era.

The finely tuned long range rigs that the Connought bunch have lashed up, for DCRA BPCR shooting are superb rifles, and a good example of where you can go with a # 1 Ruger. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Got word today about all kinds of hell being raised at the Az. state match <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />............................( hope my dotted line doesn't offend anyone too bad here, DFTFT <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) about " Switch Barrel Rifles", and all their implications. This will no doubt be the next furor, " Tempest in a teapot" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />..........and will hopefully replace this tired , worn out .38 cal. BS. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The CPA 44 1/2 Stevens....THAT is an example of a Bastard child seeking solace, and yet it garnered acceptance, and certification...........a design that did not materialize, until late 1903 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. Bottom line, ...........and yet, I don't feel like your Kliengunther Instafire, or super tuned sucks, in a BPC, would have any particular edge, over my '74 sidehammer rig....lock time is a somewhat overated subject......there's still a $hitload of barrel time to deal with.

Wierd Planet, NO? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Work safe, shoot often <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, GTC <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes, my friend, thank you! You hit the 'nail on the head' with the Borchardt being not allowed even though it is "period"... of course IF 'they' (powers to be) allow the Borchardt, they would probably be opening Pandora's Box, and then the Martini, Rugers #1-3, Westley-Richards, etc. etc. will be beating down the door also. Faster lock times(may) = higher scores?!?
VICIOUS CIRCLE <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

WHATSAMATTER, don't like my idea of a Ruger#3 with a Sharps side-hammer welded onto it?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Greg,

The Stevens was allowed because at the start of BPCR there just wasn't alot of rifle manufactures that produced rifles that fit the 1896 rule. At the start of BPCR there were only original rifles being shot. Now it's take your pick.

Lock time another de-bait.

OK, so what was the furor over? Did someone shot a switch barreled rifle?. So the rules state you have to shoot the same rifle for the match, does shooting a rifle that is altered during a match count? By the way that very same thing happened at Raton one year, barrel switching and I'm not sure what became of it.

Let's start a de-bait on lock time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Kelley O.

OK Kelley, I will jump right in...
Lock Time. that nanosecond between the time the sear is released and the hammer makes contact detonating the primer? ok.. In my opinion and not so humble, I do not think that there is a shooter alive that can hold the rifle steady or long enough to know the difference between a fast (Hiwall) lock time and a slow (Sharps) lock time. Not even between a striker action (Borchardt) and an underhammer front stuffer.
Well maybe there but I really doubt it. In a machine rest and electronic timers yeah .

OK everyone give me your best, but do not expect me to change my opinion. I will respect yours though.
Jim

My version of the truth on lock time...it is but a small bit player in the symphony of things beginning with the break of the sear, the list almost endless, and variable as well between one shot to the next. It may have a different color from one rifle to the next but the wagon still gets there, queered and steered by all the other noise attendant with the launch. 'Tis a subject outside the box of my interest for the most part.

I know this is very subjective but until the last few months I had been shooting a Sharps in silhouette. It had double set triggers. I decided to change calibers and sent it to a gunsmith to re-barrel. Rather than set up another rifle for silhouette while waiting on the Sharps I decided to shoot my hunting rifle in silhouette just for fun. It has a single trigger.

I can tell a difference in lock time. The single trigger is faster and it seems to me to make a difference especially at chickens. I realize that it could all be my imagination, but it certainly FEELS different.

Same way with my Borchardt, when I pull the trigger it seems to be in the ignition speed range of my Nesika bolt action.

As always YMMV, but there is my nickles worth.

SS

I have a Nickel, so will toss it into the pot�

[Awfulhand shooting:] �the fine art of hopeful precision predicated upon discharging a projectile within the opportune window of opportunity as the intended aiming point on the target wobbles hither and fro�.

That said, narrowing the time interval during the �grab� while still in the window of opportunity, cannot be all bad... [my vote is for faster lock-time]

CHEERS! (Happy Thanksgiving)

I'm still thinking about it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Kelley O.

Better think 'fast', or soon you'r a'gonna be too stuffed with Thanksgiving dinner to think for quite awhile <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

AH, such bliss <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Kelley O.

Before I fall victim to the Turkey Snoozles....

Lest their be any confusion on my words above, I don't doubt that a shorter lock time is beneficial, assuming it can be accomplished without stressing the bolt/breech/receiver etc etc by spring load. I do think a fine trigger is more important though....having trouble trying to understand how a single or double trigger could affect lock time though. Have used them in the past and present, absolutely love set triggers for target work though I don't use them much afield. Well, I carry them but just don't use the feature much. Gloves. Have one on a #1/Bob, embarassed a Palma shooter at the local range one day with that one. THEY don't get to use 8 oz triggers and other such woosie stuff. IIRC they are handicapped with a 5# minimum, or there abouts. Makes a huge difference IMO, you all already know that probably. Sorry about going off on a tangent.

Anyhoo, for 'awful-hand' shooting I think other factors would play more distinctly than lock time. You barrel doesn't move that much in a half millisecond...if that's the difference...more or less. So, .5 millisecond X 2"/sec = how many MOA?(all numbers hypothetical, calculations subject to scorching review, do the math yourself) Just my mind running amok. Happy T-day.

Dan, double set triggers especially of the Sharps variety are known to be slower than the single. Something about the mechanics of it all. I don't think we are talking about milliseconds, more like hundedths of a second. I am guessing that someone out there has measured some lock times on these types of rifles. My sense is that several hundredths of a second on a moving rifle could have an effect.

Bear in mind this is just my instinct, could be wrong.

SS

I'm with Sharpshooter's point of yiew.

The double bar set triggers on these '74 sidehammer guns are glacially slow, in comparison to just about anything else around.

in a back issue of " Accurate Rifle", or ' Precision Shooting', theres an article with oscilograph printouts of a launch cycle in millisecs.................. sear break, hammer fall, pinstrike, and than the burn time lag, or deadspot, prior to bullet movement.

This was on turnbolt rigs of course.

must dig around and see if I can turn it up.

GTC

Well then, we should search out some research on the subject as it relates to the gun in question. Knowing that bolt guns have several speeds in the lock time race....fast-faster-lickety split-yesterday's news...doesn't play on the specific guns do it? I'm not familiar with the workings of a Sharps trigger. Just like women I suppose, all different when you start takin' things apart.

A little research(unverified by a calculator) reveals a factoid suggesting that 1 mil of offset in barrel position is equivalent to .3" at 100 yards...so if you want to race lock time this might be a starting point...remembering the significant number is the difference between fast and slow...1/100ths or milli's, it won't be a big number. So, how fast is a barrel weaving(radians) whilst held in the awful-hand position? I dunno...

My reference above is Harold Vaughn but I may have taken his info out of context, 'twas a quick scan, it's late and I'm tired.

My feeling is that I'm wobbling back and forth past the chicken maybe 18 inches total twice in a second. So maybe I'm traversing 36" per second at 200m?

Just a guess.

SS

Cold-hard facts are... I 'wobble'!
I will take ANY help I can get (real or imagined... ) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK, Don't wobble, that help enough <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Kelley O.

There are a few cures for the "Wobbles" that I'm aware of... lots of caffeine turns it into the "jiggles". Another is a healthy dose of Pepto Bismol...turns it into the "locked up solid syndrome", and that may help, not sure. You might try the 'Bobbles' instead, vertical dispersion might be easier to manage... just guessing here guys, but one thing for sure, when you get the "Screwbles" you need to pack up and go home. There is no cure that I'm aware of, at least not one that can be administered in public.

I don't wobble offhand!! It's those stinkin hyper-active Chickens!! If I could just figure out how to get some Ridlin in those spray paint cans, we might all do better! I only got 2 today, but that was all anyone got- the light snow flurries might have been a little distracting- Kelley, you can stop sending it our way any time now.... Dennis

Well, I'll be... never thought of that; "I'm not moving, it's the 'target' that won't stay still..." Got it!; thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />