Hey All, old hunter, but new to elk hunting.

I am a non-resident and have a general tag in wyoming and looking at the two areas/units in the southern sierra madres. We will be going over rifle season, but toying with the idea of skipping opening weekend and going the week after for a DIY 7-9 day hunt. To hopefully get some weather to move elk, and to avoid the opening few days circus.

I've read the elk completion reports and spoke to the wildlife biologist this week for one of those areas, as well as e-scouting and watching videos.

In my conversations with the biologist and what i've seen and read, it isn't only distance that creates a sanctuary for elk, it can be elevation and vegetation too. Coming from southwest Michigan, elevation gain is hard for me to grasp, as i can walk 4 miles around trails by our home and probably only gain 100-150' in elevation.

So my question is what elevation gain over what distance makes you start paying attention that it might create that sanctuary effect. for example, I'm looking at areas that are 1000' elevation gain in about a mile, which seems like a lot to me, but there are many of those areas on the topo maps i'm looking at. When elevation creates a sanctuary, is that something we are talking about over a mile in distance, or over 300-440 feet in distance and steep enough that you are crawling up or downhill?

Thanks for the advice!

Matt

I would be surprised if you are hunting a unit, especially late season, where the elk have not changed their feeding and movement habits after hunters start shooting. You need to also understand that when you look at a topo and it shows only 1 mile to the next canyon or meadow that’s as the crow flies. On the ground it could 6-8 miles up and down.

Rick

Just looking at a topo map is too general. It might show green and white, forest and open, but it doesn't show vegetation density. It doesn't show how much brush is between the trees. It doesn't show any rocks or hills that don't cross a topo line on the map. Most mountain area topo maps use a 40' interval between lines. A LOT can change in that 40'. A map program like OnX can be set to show satellite photography AND topo lines. That can help a lot but it's nothing like being there.
45 degrees is a really steep hill but even steeper ones are common in the Rockies. An elk can waltz up 45 degrees as easily as you can climb 10 degrees. Anything an elk will use for safety will also have several escape routes. If you sneak in one side, they can be going out 1 of possibly several other ways. You won't get them penned in.

Something we've talked about on other threads: if you find what looks like a good bedding area STAY OUT OF IT. Get there early and stay late but hunt around it, not in it. If you kick elk out of a bedding area, they won't stop running for 5 miles and they won't be back until they're kicked out of wherever they go.

I might also say that a smart move is to get to your hunt area two to three days early and get in some serious hiking so you can get acclimated to the altitude. I lived in Idaho for several years and hunted or fished constantly so my body was used to the altitude. When I left I went to sea for four years and afterwards came back Idaho and I had a real hard time with altitude. Sea level is low and the Rockies are high so Michigan to the mountains will need adjusting.

Rick

Here is the real deal. Your hunt may have little elevation gain, BUT might start at 7,000 feet.

You will need a couple days to acclimate to the conditions.

BTY elk can move 40-50 miles in a day.

thanks for the advice. I know the sheer scale and size of the area is going to be a shock. Originally we planned to get out there 3 days before season opened to find a campsite, acclimate and scout. After talking with the biologist about how much of a zoo it is out there, it has us thinking that going a week later would be better. Hunt/scout easy the first few days, acclimate and then be able to hit it hard for 5 days or so. I've been walking stairs and hiking with my a weighted backpack, but i know i'll have my hands on my knees sucking wind the whole trip. I've lost about 25 lbs over the last 8 months, so feel good, but know i'll likely be wholly unprepared for what it actually is like.

RC, thanks for the advice. I should have said I've been using Gohunt maps. I use the topo only to look at contours and such, then add the aerial overlay. Never used a software like that before, but man is it cool.

I've been e-scouting the area for a couple months. Initially i just started out with the largest roadless/trail-less areas in an effort to get away from the roads. I found what i think are promising spots based on burns, thick cover, water and elevation, but the conversation with the biologist about elevation being able to create a sanctuary effect got me thinking that there might be areas i'm overlooking, or walking by because i was solely focused on distance creating a sanctuary. It's hard for me to envision what a 45degree slope looks like as they just don't exist here, at least not for more than 30' up the side of a landfill! So I'm just trying to reconcile what i see on a map with what experienced hunter and folks in the area say.

I will stay out of the bedding areas. Prior to all this prep, I never knew how much elk can travel in a day.

Thanks again.

It’s the altitude along with the altitude gain and slope where you’re hunting. For me, terrain that caused me to transition from a walking gait to climbing gait made a big difference.

Also, after 20+ elk hunting trips to Colorado, when each hunt was over I NEVER thought to myself, “I didn’t need to work out as hard or as much as I did.” 😁

I use a topo map for the area I hunt and the most gradual slopes on the map are still steep enough to require being in good shape and not outpacing your abilities. Everything is steep. RC is spot on about topo maps leaving out detail that you can only experience from the ground. I do try to use Google earth or my phone to zoom into potential areas to identify areas of dead fall. Large swaths of deadfall might be good elk sanctuaries, but they can put a real damper on your plans if you are trying to travel.

I'd say a climb of 1000 feet will weed out some hunters but not all. You'll have company. 2000 would weed out most.

The limiting factor on the steepness of the grade is not how steep you can climb, it's how steep you want to pack a heavy load down. Especially off trail, in rock's, or heavy blowdown. If you haven't done that before, it's the hardest part of the trip.

As Smokepole says a 1000’ of climb at altitude is a ball buster for most but add fallen brushy timber and it’s gets a lot worse real fast. Working through dead fallen timber for me was always tough as years ago I wore jeans and sweaty legs makes it even worse as the fabric keeps binding on your legs. As I got older I’d always try to side hill my climbs if possible. I’m sure the new fabrics make it easier but in the 60-70’s it was Levi’s or Wranglers.

Might add in all my years hunting food cows I always had very good luck around burns or where BLM chained the land usually late day and late season. New growth

Rick

^^^^^ this.

I live in east TN. I regularly hike on and off trail in the Smokys. I regularly spend alot of time at 5-6000 feet elevation. The Smoky's has most of its terrain as steep as anything in the Rockys, cliff faces and all. 2 differences:

1. Absolute elevation. I have zero issues hiking, rucking heavy loads, backpacking at elevations under ~ 8,000 feet. Between 8 and 10,000 there is a big difference. I'd even cut it finer and say 8 to 9,000 there is a difference, and between 9 and 10,000 there is a bigger difference in simply getting enough oxygen molecules into your lungs. Oxygen concentration is the same - ~ 21%, but the density is much less, meaning less oxygen molecules available to feed your aerobic engine. A finely tuned aerobic engine is your best friend, followed closely by, or in combination with, well honed muscular endurance.

2. Terrain slope. I find gradual slopes, even if the climb is 1000 feet, not all that bad even under load. When slope angles approach 20% (1 foot rise every 5 feet), you aren't running up or down the slope, at least not far. Combine steep slopes with lower available oxygen and a sanctuary is born. I hunt more than few steep areas and normally see exactly zero dudes. Find a bench on a steep slope with cover and connected to a remote meadow/aspen patch........

Matt, Congratulations, you've got a good tag. I've not hunted that specific area but I've camped there a few times and I did a little bit of scouting in the southwest portion for deer some years ago. I used to work with a guy that had a honeyhole on the west side of Battle Mt. He and his father in law got their elk there every year for the 6-8 years that they hunted it. They got a few in September with archery and most with rifles in October. Another friend hunted with success for a few years in the southeastern part. He'd access his area from the Colorado side of the border. I can't give you many tips beyond the good advice others have shared except to say that most guys will run the roads in trucks, ATVs and UTVs. Your willingness to hike is to your advantage. Weather is always a wildcard when hunting the last half of October. 6 or 8" of snow isn't a big deal but a big snow can really screw up your plans. Good luck! Post pictures when you get home.

Griffin Butte in so. Idaho, 8400'. A few years ago a friend of mine had a cow tag there. He hadn't seen anything and after several days he decided to climb it for a better look around. On top he found a flat just crawling with elk. It looked like every elk in the county was hiding up there. There was nobody else around, just him and the elk. He easily got his cow but then he had to get it out....That was a long haul. Once he got it off the hill, it was another 3 miles to the trailhead.
A few years ago I got a cow at the base of it, but I have llamas.

In Colorado there is a lot of hunting pressure most places. Elk go high to avoid hunters but they are usually reluctant to break cover for long. Treeline in Southern Colorado is about 12,500ft and right at treeline has been very successful for me. As you move further north in latitude the treeline elevation becomes lower.

Thanks Jeffrey. I'll try using Google earth. I've only used the aerials from gohunt, but will get into GE and peek around. I've read the thread you started on killing mature elk and picked up some good tips, unfortunately no alfalfa by where we are:)

Bwinters, I've found a small burn on the mapping software in the middle of a big roadless area. Thinking that will be our first stop. Has a small knob that seems like it would overlook most of the burn area. But it does look like a trek in.

I'm guessing most off trail stuff is about 1mph progress so probably a 2 hour hike for us..

People are working a lot harder than they use to.

With all the focus on burns from “influencers “, I’d have a couple other plans ready.

When packing a load downhill, a pair of good trekking poles is invaluable. Your knees are taking a pounding and poles can take a big load off of them.

Just a tip that has proven fairly accurate over the years.

No matter how steep or gradual the elevation gain is, a good rule of thumb is to allow an hour of travel time for each 1000 ft. when climbing during a hunt.

Work on your abductors and adductors. you'll need them in the nasty thick stuff.

My comment was directed to Frozentexan..

Going on walks with your pack is good, but in addition to that you should spend TIME with your pack on. In the off season here in Texas, I do morning hunts for pigs. Not the most fun way to hunt with these 100 degree temps, but I’ll have my pack on for several hours at a time. It’s not just the miles travelled with the pack, but familiarizing your body with having your gear on to the point of complete comfort.

I live in GA. My home is about 900' elevation and I hunt some places here at 3000-4000'. I can feel the difference at 3000'. But after a day or 2 I can get used to it.

I've traveled, hiked, camped, and hunted in Colorado numerous times over the years. A lot depends on how quickly you gain the altitude. On one trip I drove straight through from GA in about 24 hours. Camped one night and drove up to Pikes Peak at 14,000' the next day. I had a bad headache and was light headed until I got off the mountain. BTW it's still around 7000' at the base.

We drove to Rocky Mt National Park the 3rd day and camped there. By the 4th day I didn't feel any different than at home. I even jogged about 1/2 mile near the top of Trail Ridge Road at around 12,000' in order to get into position to get a photo of a Bighorn sheep.

The times I hunted varied between 8000-11,000'. Each of those times I struggled at 1st, but after about 3 days at that altitude I felt fine.

To get ready I'd strongly suggest getting in some steps. Walking up and down stadium steps is a good place to go if you live in flat land. Or use the fire escape inside a tall building in your town. EVen if it is only 2-3 floors going up and down several laps a day helps. And going down is just as important as up.

I'm at 4000'. We live only a few miles from the county fairgrounds where I can climb the stairs at the rodeo arena. They're steep and a few times up can get me puffing a bit.

Lived in CO a couple years, around 5500 feet. Would go in the mountains fairly often. Camped out at 9000', and hunted between there and 11,000 feet. Even a light pack made a huge difference at 11k, and after a few hours I'd get a headache. Below 10k my head was fine, but you still drag ass when getting about.

Idaho is a little lower. Usually the hunting is at 9k and below. It's steep and rugged, though. You'll be sucking a lot of air even if it's not the altitude.

Nobody has mentioned hands and arm conditioning for rifle carry.
The problem with carrying a rife on you work outs is sure to have you talking to law enforcement

I've found that a Boony Packer Safari sling is the easiest way there is to carry a rifle...if you can't afford a gun bearer to follow you. The one problem with the Safari sling is muzzle control. It's very easy to have it pointed in a wrong direction.

Escouting is a great way to see the country but be ready for the shock of reality. I live and hunt in the west and I still find spots that I fall in love with on the computer and say "Oh fugk!" when I see it in person. If you have a spot you think "it doesn't look too bad" it probably will be a biotch. Just be prepared for the shock and have as many spot options in the country you plan to hunt.

I well know one of those spots. It looks great on the maps with no roads or trails and a good creek down the bottom. It's an out of the way draw, a bit steep but little easy access to attract hordes of hunters. There are plenty of elk in the area. Then you go in for a look. The maps don't show that it burned out 20 years ago. It's a mass of underbrush and deadfall. Yeah, the elk are there and they're likely to stay there. It's hell to hunt and even hotter hell if you're dumb enough to shoot one in there. Forget the horses or llamas. They'll break a leg trying to get through that crap. The elk sure can get through it, though.

I’ve seen these slings before and heard from some people who I respect that they are quick on the draw, very quick and don’t slip around. But they also said they are different and you have to get used to them. So let me ask you, having never had a rifle across my chest, how are they climbing and crawling around ? Doesn’t your rifle hang down when you’re bent over or does it stay put ?

Thanks
Rick

It pretty well stays put. I've never had a problem with it. Remember that it's always right in front of you where it's easy to get a hand on it, unlike a shoulder sling. I have a lot more problems keeping a shoulder sling in place, especially with a pack. I always use a single trekking pole when hunting. I had more problems getting used to using it with the sling than anything. I don't worry about it being quick on the draw. I've never needed a draw faster than what I can do with a shoulder sling. Once you get used to it, it's very handy.

I should mention that before a bought a Safari, I looked at how they hang then used a strap and some paracord to rig a temporary one to try. After a couple hunts and some adjustment, I liked it and bought a real one. I'd suggest that anyone considering one do the same as they are different and many won't like it. I've been using it for about 5 years now.

In my experience pressured elk will go to the same slopes that sheep and goats call home.
Aside from cliff faces, nothing is too steep for pressured elk.

And they have 4 wheel drive with front and rear lockers. They have enough power to not need ultra low gears. They can climb them in high gear.

"Work on your abductors and adductors. you'll need them in the nasty thick stuff."

Yep, going over deadfall will tax them mightily.

Watch the wilderness areas, no need for trouble from the GW.
Nice and green this year, was just over there but to the north a bit.
Plenty of folks will be hunting that other week too but not quite like opening.

Get a game bird license, grouse are great eating.

Thanks to everyone on this thread. Tons of great information and i appreciate all the responses.

When we first made these plans and started out planning, i felt a little overconfident. Not so now. I'm prepared to be humbled by the mountains and the animals, but open to learning and getting better!

Not everybody acclimates to altitude at the same rate. Most people in decent shape can handle 4-5000’ quite easily but I know from experience and from a doctor friend that 6000’ is where most low landers start having problems. Normally a couple days of activity at 6K will let a person adjust then the biggest obstacle to the body is 8-9000’ . Once you hav3 that made I think most strong healthy people can make 10-11000’ with not much problem.

True story: I lived in Idaho for a number of years hunting fishing going to school and working for the UPRR. I was single and lusted to travel and left God’s country and went to sea for about 3 1/2 years. Returned to Idaho, hooked up with a couple old hunting buddies and got an over the counter elk tag with my old Idaho drivers license at Pep Boys. Well I’d been in Idaho less than two days and we were off to this high meadow honey hole they knew about. We parked the truck at 8200’ , two pack horses, full back packs and an about 5-6 mile hike to a camp site. My heart never slowed down that night beating like a hummingbird with a dull headache. I couldn’t eat not even Raman Noodles everything came back up. After two days my body was still in deficit and I couldn’t get past it. I walked off the mountain and got a ride to a doctor. My buddies thought it was hilarious and put the wood to me for years, everybody heard about it. But I got even when I had a yacht delivery job from San Diego to San Francisco and ask my buddy if he wanted the trip of a lifetime. He drove right down and was really jazzed about the fancy 65’ yacht and making the passage. We got underway and sea conditions were mild but forecasts showed twenty to thirty knots out of the SW for a couple of days but nothing to worry about the autopilot could handle it. He didn’t show up on the bridge so I went below to find him in one of the crew cabins curled up and smelling of puke. I offered him some sardines.and walked out chuckling. He stayed that way two more days and man he was sick. When he got his legs back I told him hey Dave this isn’t 8200’ but it’s sea level think about it.

Hope my stories are okay cause it’s about all I have to share these days.

Rick

Requirements for elk: food, water, concealment and when hunting pressure is on, finding safe heaven. Doesn't matter if it is 5000 feet or 10,000 feet.They will go where people don't.

Their fur coats are very efficient at retaining heat and what’s cool for you is scorching for them. North facing slopes are always cooler so keep in mind that’s where they’ll be headed early to mid morning after feeding at night. Late afternoon they’ll be coming out of their midday, cool resting areas toward feeding areas.

Where I live at (1200)ft, is lower than any place I elk hunt, but I am blessed that can leave the house for a 1,000 foot climb every day if I choose. I actually focus on elevation, more than distance, averaging 3.1 miles a day over the year. I have a couple of 2000 foot climbs not far from the house which I hit frequently before the season starts. First trip this year is Wyoming, second is Oregon. I do adapt fast to the change but my age is making that harder every year. Its also hotter than hell right now , which also makes it challenging. Elk hunting is my religion, and I will stay at it as long as possible.

I have never noticed a "sanctuary effect" with any elevation change. I've found them on measured 45 degree slopes to flat land in the valley. Don't over think it, they are far from that predictable. However, bedding areas tend to be flat, but a flat area the size of a two-car garage is plenty for a small herd even if it's surrounded by 45 degree slopes. And a flat area that small won't show up on any topo or even google earth images. Your feet are the only way you'll find it.

A buddy's son just scouted this weekend and saw 70 elk at 12,500' way above the tree line. They are where you find them, though tend to move lower as fall progresses. 1000' elevation change is nothing for an elk, in an old spot we hunted they'd feed in a valley at night and sleep 2500' higher during the day - and that's a daily thing for them - until the season started.

In my experience hunting pressure far outweighs any natural tendencies of elk. Hunting today is not like in the old Primos movies. Hunt escape routes or the border to private land. Every flatlander that comes to CO talks about "oh, them elk is higher, or them elk is lower" like they are some walleye school right above the thermocline. Nope, elk are where the hunter isn't and that has nothing to do with elevation.

A few years ago we were in Albuquerque for Christmas with our daughter. Our SIL wanted to show me some elk in a place he'd hunted, over 11k. On the way up, I started seeing trails in the snow coming down and crossing the road. I said I thought they'd moved down and when we got up there, there was nothing but tracks. This was well after the season and there were no car tracks so they hadn't been moved by people. We finally found them about 2000' lower. A couple days later a major storm moved in. They'd just moved out ahead of it.

Elk will do what they want, or at least what the lead cow wants. Her job is to decide when and where they go. Early scouting is better called 'learning the terrain' rather than looking for elk. Even if you find them, don't put your bets on them staying there. They're highly mobile in the late season before winter. These elk moved ahead of the storm but I've also seen them wait until there's deep snow before moving.

If they’re not where you’re looking, they’re somewhere else. 😁

FrozenTexan: Forget elevation strata locations - afix more attention on water, feed and cover - along with fresh sign!
High elevations will "tire" you for sure - but you will regain energy shortly and after a few days you will notice your lungs are now supplying oxygen to your muscles more uniformly/quickly!
I have always tried to Hunt the Rifle opener for Elk - and then Hunt as often as possible after that, if I am not tagged out.
Good luck and enjoy your hopefully safe and successful Hunt.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: Keep an eye out for Grizz!

I like to classify elk in three groups.

1. Reservation elk.

These have sold out to farmland and hope the low private land they are in doesn’t allow hunting.

2. Scavenger elk

These elk drop down to crop land but scatter back up to hide in the timber. ( usually no more than 2000 feet above the crops)

3. Wilderness elk.

These deal with wolves and soon become a #1 or #2 if given the chance. Usually elk are between 5000 and 8000 feet IMO.


So my advice is to look for #2 s. Then find the nasty escape route benchy areas. They seek hell holes to escape from bedding areas. Use thermals for approaches and posting. Don’t blow em out their beds unless u be ready to shoot.


#1s u just need permission.


# 3 s listen to others as I don’t hunt them much.

As I've said before, if you bust one out of a bed, you'd better put him down because you won't get another chance. He won't quit running for 5 miles and he's not coming back.

Rock Chuck

I totally agree.

If you find elk you should be very careful about ruining the deal.

But other hunters can also screw the pooch…..

So urgency and dispatch may be in order.

Just stay out of bedding areas. Hunt around them early and late but never go in. 1 man trying to sneak through will sterilize it for weeks.

Can't do it now, but up until about 2018 I camped at about 9,000 feet and killed elk from 10,000-12000 feet. Rode my mule 3-7 miles in and probably climbed another 500 feet.

Now I camp about 8500 feet and don't hunt much above 9500 feet. I live at7600 feet.

IMO, elk don't care about elevation.They go where it is safe. They can and do move a couple miles to feed and water. During rut, they frequent breeding grounds where the cows gather. After rut, the bulls will find some hidey hole with food and water where thy won't be disturbs. Later they gather in bachelor groups and later yet, all they all herd up. All rules change if there is private land and they get driven to by hunting pressure.

This photo was taken in 2018, I was about 12,500, elk was close to 13,000, shot was about 300yards. The next year I missed one about where the snow begins in the photo (Up higher in the rocks). The two previous years, I killed two bulls at about the same elevation I was. My lungs don't work very good at those altitudes now.





Previous two years I killed two bulls at about the same elevation as I was.





Now I shoot cows at about 9000 feet.

You ought to try living at 300’ and hunting at 9000-11,000’. 😳😁

My first elk hunt was outside Leadville at +11,000' and I lived on the Sacramento delta at 26". Brutal as we set up camp the day before the season started. Thankfully my bull was down at 8 AM opening day. After that, we would arrive two days prior.

My last 3 elk were in a late hunt in a wintering area. The average elevation was 3500'. I live at 4000.

Some good times at treeline.

Those pictures are great and tell a story better than any topo map. I'm planning on re-reading the thread multiple times to make sure what was shared makes it into my brain for hunting. I know I'll screw it up and make mistakes, but i sure appreciate all the advice offered on here. A great forum!

Texan have a blast you don’t make great stories sitting on the couch. My hunting partner struggles with elevation- he is as goofy as 3/4 drunk when we get to 8-9000 scouting. We’ve been using Altitude Advantage from Wilderness Athlete -available on Amazon the past few years & it seems to help. Can’t tell you if it is functioning or fooling me into believing but it makes at least a full day difference in acclimating.

I use the 40lb weight vest & treadmill at the gym at work & can wear my pack & rifle doing hills on my place in the dark. The rougher the conditions & poorer the footing the better. Adrenaline on the hunt will help but it’s hard to explain the level of fatigue after 3 miles packing out elk after dark above 8,000’ for an old fat guy who doesn’t live at elevation. It’s an exhilarating feeling for the first 1/2 mile & the last 100 yards - just pure exhaustion in between.

Hunted elk in 21 for over 25 years so I will give you the low down on the unit.

1- Opening day is good but know that our kids get a two day head start in the unit so the elk will already be a little wound up by the time you get to hunt.
2- Day 1 is usually a complete circus in the majority of the unit. This year opens on a Sunday so the crowds will be down a wee bit.
3- I prefer around day 3-4. The party crowd has burnt out and went home and the elk will usually return to normal behavior.
4- Get set to see the most road hunting pig fuggers you’ve ever seen. They are mostly harmless to the elk population. Where we set up our main tent camp, we will have a minimum of 50 atv’s come ripping by our tents that day. This is in probably the most remote part of the unit that you can get vehicles into. Prepare yourself for the madness.

The good news….
1- You can find and kill elk just about anywhere in the unit.
2- Get your boots on and get away from the roads. 1000 feet of altitude is great but not necessary to find elk. Get away from the atv’s and you will find elk.
3- Get comfy with long romantic walks in the dark to do the above. Be where you want to be in the dark and stay until it’s dark.
4- Around the wilderness is just as good as in it.
5- Booze, flat landers and altitude don’t mix. The party crowd can’t repeatedly leave camp at 5am and chase elk until dark for many days. Elk love the party guys.
6- Get as far away from 70 as you can. This isnt say you can’t kill elk near it but you will have a much more enjoyable time.

Have fun. It really is a great unit to chase elk.