Hey Guys,
I've got a tag in Alberta this year that SHOULD put me in front of bulls in the 320-380 range......with my goal being to shoot a nice 350 class bull if all goes well.
I know how to judge a 300 class bull pretty easy, but wanted some tips, pics, etc on deciphering those really big bulls that push that mark.
Any tips or comments on what to look for in those big bulls? I am certainly not a guy who is worried about inches....just want to know when I'm out there what I'm lookin at.....I know if it makes my jaw drop its going to most likely get shot....but wanted to see what was out there...

Thanks guys!! Pics welcome....

Rackmastr:Congrats on your tag. I used to know all the rules for judging big elk,but have mostly forgotten them.... But I'll try to help and others with more experience will no doubt chime in.Maybe they'll remember all the "rules".

First,I'd look for length and mass.A 350 class bull looks big and "boxy" and has a typical 6x6 configuration,in most cases;look for length and mass everywhere, in the main beams,and all of the tines.I think you want main beams in the 50" range,and the back "forks" will be deep and well formed with the main beam sort of (sometimes but not always) turning down.He will sort of look like he could scratch his ass with his back tines if he stretched his head back a bit.The swords should be long as well,IIRC between 18-24".The trez(is that what they call them?) will be long and sort of curved,out and up,and in a big bull seem to add to the appearance of a wide spread.

The first two tines will have length and sort of appear like they'd stretch out at least half the length of his face,maybe more in a really big bull,and sometimes sort of hook up.

With all of this,he will have a lot of mass carried throughout the rack,including the tines.

Each bull is a bit different,and some will have more of these characteristics making up for a lack of others;but a 350(and up)class of bull is a very solid notch up from a 300-320 class in all these characteristics,and once seen, will not be forgotten.A big bull will knock your eyes out and make a lot of these evaluations pretty unneccesary.He will look like "WOW" at first glance unless you're a really hard core elk hunter with a lot of bulls in your background,and exposure to lots of really big elk.

The biggest I've seen was a huge 6x6 in Arizona that I looked over for a long time.He had all the above characteristics in spades and I sort of concluded that he would gross book(about 375 IIRC)and may very well have been considerably larger;he appeared VERY wide because he was,and had very long trez that swept up and out,adding to the appearance of spread.Viewed from the side, his beam length had the "scratch the ass" length and forks were very deep.Generally he had all and more of what I described above, and was bigger in every regard than the 350 class bulls I had previously seen.

In the case of a really big bull,all this excrutiating evaluation will be unnecessary.Like Jack O'Connor said, the big one's will "look big".

Its really difficult to say exacly what to look for, bulls in this catagory can make the 340-350 mark by having exceptional brows, and average everything, or a big top and average bottom or nice all the way around. IMO brows and 4ths are usually pretty average on most mature bulls, but if you see one with a big 'y' at the top and long 3rds, you're looking at the kind of bull you want. By the big y means long mains and long 5ths, long 3rds should be 12" or more. If you find one like that, I doubt you be disapointed.

There are a gajillion pictures on the net of dead elk with the score. Spend some time studying them, and you'll get a lot better feel for what to look for.

If you know what a 300 class bull looks like, a 350 class bull will look huge in comparison. If its bigger than that, it will have long points all the way around and you'll probably be crapping yourself... I know I would. Only a Utard would be able to hold his composure in such a situation.

Haha thanks for the tips guys....kinda what I was thinking....

I have never killed a bull over 260.....the area I havent hunted in the past is an OTC area with easy raghorns but not much for anything big. Mostly farmland elk that get killed when they get past 3pt.

I have been waiting for 9 years for a good elk draw and a season opened up in an area right at home. From all accounts there sounds like a good herd with some very good bulls (pusing 400+ inches) and my goal of harvesting a 300-320 class bull has increased a bit.

I still have no idea what I'll do if a nice 320 class bull steps out on opening day. Hopefully pre-season scouting will give me an idea of what type of bull I'll hold out for.....either way I'm VERY excited.....

I am in the same situation as you--I have drawn a chance of a lifetime, and have the most realistic chance for a 350+ bull that I will every have. One way that I am trying to learn to judge them is just by experience--looking at photos to be able to compare the differences.
One place I found on the web is Bull elk photos

A big bull has a squarer rack as opposed to a more narrow U shaped rack. Then I think tine length comes into play.

take a deep breath and THINK and compare,look around and take a few seconds, don,t get tunnel vission on the first 4 point or larger rack you see! I see far too many guys that quickly count points and sqeeze off a shot all within a second or so of spotting anything approaching a decent bull, now thats TOTALLY understandable since I normally hunt on BLM or public access land, and seeing any good bull is reasonably rare, but Ive seen several cases where guys dropped satilite bulls and only then noticed the herd bull after the shot!
ask your guide if hes there but remember most guides want you to shoot ANYTHING thats near decent, and rarely hold out for a monster, because most guys would rather have a decent bull down to brag about than go home empty handed, and they know that.
plus many guides are part time locals who either don,t know what a truely large bull looks like or would prefer you took an average bull and got back to camp early, or might want to get the largest bulls themselfs. now obviously not all guides think like that but Ive known a few that were in the guide business only to make a few extra bucks and were not exactly worried about the elks BOONE/CROCKETT scores, thier main concern was getting the tag filled and the ELK out and back to camp.
ITs your hunt and YOUR choice,but keep in mind ANY decent bull is a trophy of sorts and its rare for a guy to get a decent bull on every hunt, on an average hunt, your probably going to see only a few bulls and if your holding out for a monster your taking a chance on going home with an un-filled tag!
I know Ive gone home with an un-used tag a few times when I passed on average/legal bulls , I was seeing,having shot something similar in the past, while hopeing for something bigger would show up and it didn,t

340mag you always crack me up.

rackmaster, if a number (350) is something you are hoping to end up with (in addition to a great hunt), you'll have to add some numbers in your head when looking at the antlers..

Don't worry about any shapes, "boxy" etc.. that plays no role in the score of the bull. Look for length of tines and the beam. Mass and spread are secondary.. To get to 350, the average length of tines should be pretty good. If you have some stunted brow tines of 12" or so.. you'll have to have some really good length up top to make up for it. And vice versa.. all elk racks vary. If you have 10" 3rd tines.. you'll have to have really long stuff elsewhere to make up for it. Good rule of thumb is 15" avg on tine length will end up with something in that range of bull.

A 320 bull usually looks a whole lot bigger than something in the 300 range. 350 is a whole different league that 320. It won't look small, and in most cases, no real need to add numbers, just shoot. If you're looking at a nice 6 point, but you are unsure, just start doing some math. If you're in a difficult to draw area with bulls around that are in that near 400 range, I'd do a lot of practicing and evaluating bulls in the 320-340 range and convincue yourself to pass... which will be tough as those are some terrific looking bulls. Take your time.

Good luck.

Since your tag is in Alberta, I would spend a weekend in Banaff National Park and view as many elk as possible in early September. If the season begins after the rut go to Banaff during the rut and glass any and all elk. Find the biggest bulls and use them as a benchmark.

Second visit all of the local taxidermy shops as they should be finishing up with last years mounts and ask what is the B/C points for each elk. Ditto with sporting goods stores. This will give one a realistic view of the what is available in your location. Go from there

If his fronts are as long as his nose... If he can scratch his ass with his whale tails... SHOOT!!!!!

At least in Unit one in AZ, we look at the 3rd's and 5th's. Usually one is short and the other long.
If this is the case in Alberta, make sure the 3rd's and 5th's are nice and long. If one is short, think twice unless you know he has it everywhere else. Soetimes its easier to tell a long or short 5th than a long or short 3rd.
In any event if the beams sweep back and that back fork is long and deep, you have a good starting point. If those fronts look as long as the nose like casey said and kinda have a nice sweep up, that is also good. If you got both of those and that 3rd point looks as long or close to the first two, thaen you got a solid bull.
Look at mass aswell. That big bull will carry it most of the beam.

The best thing you can do and should do, is contact a taxidermist or a few taxidermist in Alberta. Ask them what the average 350 bull has as far as tine length, beams and mass. As him for pics of those big bulls and measurements if he has them.

I did this when I was starting to field judge coues deer. My taxidermis said most mature coues deer have 15 inch beams, 22 inches of mass total, and about 14 inches inside. So I start at 52 (beams and mass), look at ears and guess spread, use ears or nose to guage tines. That saves me a lot of time field judging.

Contact a taxidermist and find that stuff out for the area you will be at. That will save you time and also help you tell that 320 from 350. I am sorry, but after a certain size big is big untill you hit that 380 mark where the oh poop factor sets in and you know he's a monster and who cares score.

Good luck and I hope you share some pics from your hunt and God willing success.

Kique

Pay attention to how much of the tip is polished. If you see plenty of ivory tip on all the tines, you probably have a mature bull. The points should all be distinguishable and distinct.

Everyone has their own ways of judging. I have mine, I usually shoot the first bull I see and then go over and measure it. It's just that easy...



My first bull opening day 1978 he grossed 385; since then I have shot the first legal elk I have seen, 40+ elk and counting, This one a 7X7 grossing 324...





I believe the tines are the key...how long, how much ivory on the tips, how do they compare with the mass of the main beams. I have shot quite a few elk, but not many big ones, no matter what they say, big elk are scarce.

That's the way to do it everywhere. That and the mass at the bases.

OK all you elk judges, what does this one score?

I'd guess 320 to 330 but it's hard to see the right side !!!
Later Taters

Both sides are essentially the same.

I'll even give you a hint: The left side has a 58" main beam length.

I've got him at around 356-367 give or take with out seeing his spread.
18" G1
17" G2
15" G3
20" G4
8" G5
55" mass
58" Mains
Assumed 40" inside
Helluva bull.Shooter on most hunts.

I was thinking 355 =- 5.

I hate judging pictures!!!!!!!!

By doing a quick glance, I would guess 335 to 345, closer to 335. I feel I am waaaaayyyyyyyyy off, but in any event doing a quick score that is what I would guess if I only had a quick second to guess.

The 4ths are nice and long, the 3rd's and 5th's to me are good, and the first two are good.
Can't see bases, but the mass looks good and like already stated, the widths is hard to say.

If this was the only look I had, I would bite the bullet, tell my client to shoot the dang thing as many times as he could. If I was wrong and he was way small, It would be on me. If I was right, then I would be the man.

Great bull from the side, so I would say a definite shooter. I wouldn't hesitate to kill that thang.

Kique

I'd have to say by looking at the pic closer, I'd guess a solid 360 bull.
That is taking time to guess everything out and using 58 inch beams to double, triple or quadruple the other points to equal 58 inches.
example, how many G4's will it take to equal 58inches? I'd say bout 2 and a quarter or so. and then doing the same with the other points.

Solid 360 by taking time, 335 to 345 by quick guessing.

Kique

That is NOT a 360 bull. He is not an inch over 340.

For a guy who has never killed an elk even CLOSE to that big....he would be shot if I had him walk in front of me during the season...

He's over 320...and thats my mark I'd love to hit......would he go 340?? No idea...haha.

Those main beams are crazy long and he has it all....cept for maybe a few inches on his 5th points.....but heck he makes me drooooool.....

I never said I could judge pictures. And going by what was supposedly known (58" main beams), I used the best tool I knew. Math.
However its no excuse, other than pictures are decieving.

Thanks for sharing that with us. It was fun.

Does anyone know the right score?

Kique

Here is a pic of my elk hunting buddy's elk that looks to be a twin of Kilmer's picture. We got him last fall and he scores (officially) 338 1/8" B&C.


My elk, taken on the same hunt scored 358 2/8"....like someone else said on this thread, most of the big ones are 6x6 big and boxy, with mass...he described mine to a "T", except he had two small additional points up front that made him a 7x7, but it was really a 6x6 frame. Both elk were taken fair chase. Best of luck to you fine folks this fall!

Those are two awesome elk!!! Wow....that bull is what dreams are made of....

Wow !!! Now thats 2 outstanding bulls. What State???
Back to the first photo I'll stick to my first guess.

Those are two great bulls also!!! But the first bull doesn't have 58" mains, let's assume he has 48" beams (which maybe a little long).If he is pretty close to being Kilemer's bull's twin and officially goes 338" adding the extra 20" would put him(Kilmer's) at 358". Just curious Godog what are the main beams and the inside spread on your bull? 50"-52" mains? And FYI here in NM we call those little nontypical points you described "Devil's tines" or "Acoma points". Awesome bull for sure!!!!

58" beams are world class. That first bull doesn't look like anything special to me. It's a nice bull, but not even book. I figured maybe somebody had killed it and measured the beams. I think they look about 50" tops but photos can be deceiving.

In any event, I wouldn't shoot that first bull.

This pic shows his length better



Here he is on the ground, that is me on the left. He's 48" wide at his 3rds, and 22" wide at the tips (pretty cool). Killed with a muzzleloader at 25 yards. This hunter's first elk.



I misjudged this bull after watching him for about an hour (including a 20 minute brawl with a bull about the same size) at 1500 yards. The picture is taken through my spotting scope. His face is really short, which threw me off. I could tell the main beams were exceptional, but I overestimated the length of his fronts. I guessed him at 365-370, he taped just over 352.

I guess my point is, I've looked at a ton of big elk, on the hoof and on the ground, and the difference between a 330 and a 350 (or a 350 and a 370) is less than 2" on each tine, and pretty tough to see at distance.

Shoot one that looks "big enough" to you, and you won't be disappointed. The hunter in the picture wasn't.



PS: Nice bull Godogs.

Thanks Kilmer! I think the short fifths on that bull really throw everyone off! If he would have had 15" fifths everyone would have been calling him 370-380(and I guess he would have been close-approx 366?). Anyway he is a great bull and they're always better when they are on the ground!....Besides I knew a Utahn wouldn't post a pic of a 330 "rat"!!!!

How about this one?





Sorry about the second picture (i hate back of the truck shots) but it shows the tine length a little better. Both pics are of the same bull. I'm on the right in the first pic. I know the score.

Experts?

Wow Kilmer that's a great bull for anyone,anywhere,anytime.
Thanks for the lesson in field judging. I'll take a stab
at that huge 6x6. I'll say 358 and put me down as one of
the guys who would not blink before droping the hammer on
him.
I'm just hoping to top 300 this fall in Colorado. I'm may
never get there hunting public land DIY but I'm still trying.
Thanks again for taking the time to post the photos. Later
Taters

I'm guessing 362 on that last bull. Nice one. I don't mind the back of the truck photo at all. At least it's not a Ford. (sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Im in 362 and call.

I'm damn sure no expert! They kick my a$$ every year!! But to me if you doubled the bulls big side(his left)with average mass and 42 inside you'd have a 380ish gross bull. With the differences between sides -not confused with net- he's a 370s gross bull maybe less. Great thirds!Shows what tine length does for a score. Another gagger bull on most hunts!! But if this bull and the first were standing together I'd shoot the first. I love the mass on those big black horns!!!

Pictures can be tricky, but the first bull is quite a stud, regardless of score and a few shorter tines. From the photos, I can't get more than 340 gross (best case) out of the one in the truck. Nice bull no doubt, and impressive enough to have been able to load him whole. That's my dream.. a big one, whole in the truck.

Once upon a time I was gonna make up a bumper sticker that said "real men get their elk out whole"...

Unless of course it's high fence or big butt rancho.

Dober

"real men get their elk out whole"...

We got the whole elk out, but he was in halves. If you look closely, you can see that the hind end is not in the truck with the front end. There happened to be a 4 wheeler road in the bottom of the canyon he was shot in that we didn't discover until we went to put our hands on him.

The bull in my first pics left the mountain in pieces, on our backs, just like God intended. 2 miles, uphill, to the truck - 3 trips.

Those big thirds are what cost this bull his life. He nets 362 and change. I didn't think he'd break 350 on the hoof, after watching him bedded for about an hour. The guy with the gun disagreed, and he was right.

No fences, no ranchos, just good quality limited-entry units in Utah.

EDIT :By the way Mark, you have yet to ask me about the bear pictured in my avatar. It was killed in your home county. I'm surprised you don't recognize it.

OK, my bad tell me about your bruin...grins

Thx
Dober

Oh, that little old thing? Well, since you asked

I killed it June 2007 just north of the park buffer zone and south of Big Sky (can't remember the name of the drainage, maybe Taylor?). .35 Whelen, 200 grn TSX, 147 yards.



One little rub on a hind leg, and a belly full of rotting elk calf. He was 15 years old, and measured 20 2/16 green. I'm still waiting for it to come back from the beetles for an official score (getting a little nervous about it taking so long). Hide squared 6'10".

Sorry for the hi-jack. Back to elk business.

Nice bruin! I'd kind of like to hunt them some day...

Thx 4 sharing

Dober

I'd let you tag along with me, if you wanna give it a try. All of my spots are hunted out, do you know of any good ones?

What am I missing on that bull? I can't get 340 out of from the photos.. Not calling BS, but my guesstimates must be way off. Was it entered into the B&C awards at 362+? I was honestly getting under 340, while gifting everywhere - because everybody else was guessing so much higher.

My first thought was 362 also, but it was posted twice so I didn't bother. What I see is a very typical 345-350 frame with extra inches on the 3rds and 4ths. It's hard to tell how good the fronts are in the pictures, but figured maybe a few inches there total. The hard part for me is getting the frame size right when guys are sitting back behind the animal. That bull is very simular to my 350 bull but has longer 3rds and 4ths. I'm usually more wrong than right in these games but they're always fun.

Kent

I'd be proud to claim any legal animal and the all of the 1's in the GREAT pictures provided.

Good thread Rackmastr. Seeing how I also managed to draw a bull tag here in Alberta after a 9 year wait I can sure benefit from everyone's pictures and feedback. Regardless of all the videos, and magazine articles I still really find it tough to judge them. Also being in a zone with potential for cranker bulls I hope come crunch time I make the correct judgement. My goal also is for a bull in that 350+ range, seeing how this will be a bit of a unique opportunity.
Thanks, and keep it coming.

Know what ya mean Duk....should be a good year. Cant wait to get out and scout some bulls with ya on the weekend and maybe do some field judgin....

Great pics guys!!!

He'd gross 320-330--his 5th points are very short for a bull that size....He looks to be an Arizona bull?


Casey

Discussions like this are always interesting, especially when very detailed directions are given for precise estimates.

Last fall I hunted elk on the Whittington Center in northern New Mexico with a friend. We were guided by the center's two top guides. I have also seen a few elk killed, and killed a couple myself. My friend had never killed anything big, but had passed up a lot of bulls over the years looking for a really big one.

Each of us took a nice 7x6. Mine came on the first day, and we didn't get to look at too long, as he appeared suddenly with a companion about 100 yards away. But there was no hesitation on the part of either the guide or me. I didn't guess score, just knew the bull was quite mature, with long tines. My guide did make a quick guess at 340+, and it turned out a little optimistic. I didn't give a damn, because it was still a big, really mature bull.

My friend shot his bull on the next-to-last day. BOTH guides got to look at a long while, across a canyon, and neither thought it would gross over 300--but the hunt was gettng short. It turned out to gross 345. The reason? The body was huge, and made the antlers look small.

We later took a photo of my friend and me, standing side by side, holding the racks. They look to be really similar, and yet there is supposedly a big difference between a 320 bull and a 350 bull, easily noticeable to any experienced elk hunter.

This is yet another in a long line of stories I've accumulated about field-judging. In general the only animals that look really big, ARE really big. The rest of it is mostly guesswork, with "experts" getting fooled a lot more than they like to admit.

I don't know anyone that is perfect on elk, but I know a guy here in AZ that can absolutely peg a coues whitetail to the inch. I have had several guys tell me this. In fact while in Mexico, there was large buck nailed to the barn and after some discussion and betting, they got a ladder and took the buck down to settle it once and for all. Alan was within 1/4"! Too me, antelope are the hardest!

Yeah, antelope can be tough too. I was on a hunt a few years ago on a good ranch in New Mexico with 5 other guys. We all got bucks that scored between 78 and 86, and even the guides couldn't really call all that much difference in the field before the bucks were on the ground. They were all 15-16" long with good prongs. And these were also guides who had seen a LOT pronghorn taken.

Well, this bull scores..heck, I don't know and could care less. I took him on the last day of a bitterly cold and windy late season hunt in CO and hunted as hard as I ever want to again. My guide who is very knowledgeable thought about 330 once his one broken tine was repaired to match the other.

I, however, scored about a 2 on a comfort score of 1-10, ten being very comfortable . I had to put the camera batteries in my pocket for several minutes to get about two pic's worth out of 'em. I'm sure that had something to do with the pic's quality too.

I almost threw in that disclaimer, too

20 years ago, a buddy and I were glassing a big bull during the winter in the Gunnison Basin. We watched him lead a bunch of bulls out of the timber. We guessed the big one to be pushing 365+. Then a small raghorn pulled up beside the big one, and it was quickly obvious this bull was HUGE bodied--he was literally 14-16 inches longer, and 6 inches taller than the raghorn. We quickly figured out we were looking at a 400 class bull, and easily the heaviest bull I've ever seen--maybe 900+ lbs. Several other folks subsequently saw that bull hanging on the outskirts of Gunnison, and the consensus was that he was a bona fide monster.


Casey

Opening day is creeping up quickly. Any other pictures or words of advice?
Thanks!

I have found a lot of nice photos that are helping me learn to spot the differences just by using google. One of the best sources of bulls that have been scored is
kings world

this guy is 7x7, scores 355 and change. He stars out in the back on both sides and has 21 & 22" #3's

Nice, what state?

Dober

Just did a quick search and couldn't find if you posted it or not, but what did that hog end up scoring?

Dont want to get into a pissin match here, but ya, there is a big difference between a 320 and 350 bull.However, there are far more "experianced" elk hunters than there are trophy elk hunters..the average experienced elk hunter may encounter a 350+ bull one time in his carrer, or maybe even never.

Don't want to sound like a know it all, cuz I aint..but if a trophy guide around here missed a bull by 45", he wouldn't be around long.

At archery ranges I would think it would be relatively easy to tell, but at very long spotting ranges it would certainly be harder. A 350" is REAL big, whereas a 320" is very nice. I doubt I'd spend even a moment wondering if it was a 320 or 350 though, I'd just shoot. Really, barring a change in hunting venue, the odds of me even seeing a 350 are so slim I don't even worry about it.

I was once told to start with 200" thats avg mass/beams/spread measurements on a 6x6. then start adding the length of points. For example: 1st 14" + 2nd 15" + 3rds 12" + 4th 20" + 5th 16" = 77". 77 x 2 both side are approx the same = 154. 154 + 200 = 350ish.

The tricky part is est the lengths. I've been told to use the ear as a guide. The ear is approx 10-12 inches long.

Of course I used this method and shot what I estimated to be a 340 class bull. only later to figure out that he was only 300. His mass, beams, and spread didn't come anywhere near the 200". He was unusually narrow. and I overestimated on point length.

I prefer the "no doubt" method. I've developed it.... You hunt until you find one that you have no doubt about. Shoot and leave the tape measure in the tool shed. He's a trophy, numbers don't matter.

That's some super-silly stuff right there - even worse than Eastman's "rack bracketing".

Kurt, you know nothing about judging BIG elk (grin)...

One thing I know about big elk, I've blown more opportunities on them than on any other size elk...

If his brow tines get to the cow he's pushing before his nose, shoot. He's plenty big.

So Rackmaster...................I would guess the bull in your Avatar should score about 350. It certainly is way over 260. Is this the bull your draw tag?

Wyoming

My buddy shot this one in 2008. It went 340, but it gives you an idea how special of an animal you have if you break 350.