300 WSM, 180 gr Accubond

I tried these things for the 1st time last year. I shot a medium sized mulie from 300 yds. He was quartering away and he dropped like a rock. The near side was a mass of blood shot tissue, much of it inedible. I thought that it was maybe just this particular hit that caused so much damage until...........

Yesterday I shot a medium sized bull from about 250 yds. He was quartering toward me. I hit him in the shoulder, clipping but not breaking the bone. I found the bullet under the hide about 2/3 of the way back in the rib cage. It was mushroomed beautifully, a classic mushroom. It killed him alright, no question about that. But guys, I work way too hard for my elk to have to leave half a shoulder lying on a hillside. It was blown to pieces. The bloodshot area was massive, going back about halfway down the ribcage on the NEAR side.

There are too many quality bullets on the market to have to use Accubonds. My 2 partners just looked at the meat and "highy recommended" that I switch brands. I fully concur. They're killers, to be sure, but I don't need just a killer, I need one that will leave me a little edible meat, too.

If a game warden saw what these bullets do, he'd probably ticket me for wanton waste of game meat.

Hmmm......Where possibly could this thread go?

I'd think that most other cup/core bullets would have caused similar damage, especially at those ranges.

I am sticking with the Partition(or TSX)-no Accubonds for me.

TSX did great for me little meat damage... The E-Tip should be good bullet to......

Don't take this the wrong way. I know that is a very popular cartridge, and I don't know how it's external ballistics compare with others, but maybe it's just too fast? From what I understand, speed has a lot to do with meat damage. Just my 2 cents. Please take no offense.

The 300 WSM is about 200 fps faster than a 30-06 and just slightly under that of a 300 WM. It can be closely compared to the WM. I shot both of these animals between 250 and 300 yds. By that time, the bullet would have slowed considerably. I can see speed being a factor at 100 yds, but not out there.

According to Speer's ballistic tables, comparing a mv of 3000 for the WSM to 2800 for a 30-06, at any distance, the WMS bullet will be traveling roughly 100 fps faster than the 30-06. So, at 300 yds, the WSM will be traveling at the same velocity as the 30-06 at 200 yds. If speed is the factor, then this bullet is also worthless for the 30-06 and the .308 Win. If it's too fast for those mainstays of American hunting, then what in the world is it good for?

I haven't actually tried the Accubond on game-none of my rifles(about 6?) that I tried the AB in shoot 'em all that well.

However, I know too many local guys that have had similar results to yours, Rock Chuck.

I for one don't want to mess with the AB on game, especially elk.

Thats why lots of people call them Accubomb.......

No doubt, Randy!

No wonder why the bullet engineers go crazy. Damn...dead elk...dead right there...

last year 300 wm 180 grain partition, I did not hit exactly where I wanted you can see in the picture the blood spot on the front leg, same spot on both sides straight through, No problems with the meat just a baseball sized hole I had to trim up to get all the jelled and bruised meat.

I had several bad experiences with Accubombs several years ago, as did my friend Allen Day. I used up the rest of my supply at the range and switched to other bullets for hunting. I just returned from a CO elk hunt where my son and I took two nice bull elk with our 300mags loaded with Barnes 168gr TTSX bullets. After using them on mule deer last year and now these elk, I won't bother looking any further for a bullet to hunt with.

That's not what I want to hear, my 300 H&H loves the 200 gr AB. I'll give them a shot this year and see what happens.

Last year I shot a cow bison with 250gr 9.3mm Accubond at 2400fps(chrony). Shot was at 75 yds.

Worked just fine. No explosion, ruined meat, etc. She didn't drop at the shot(lungs) so I hit her again(same place) and down she went.

If I'd hit a shoulder maybe things would have been different.

I hae noted this before but will again: AccuBonds, like Nosler Partitions, are built according to the game that's expected to be shot with them. The lighter models are designed to lose more weight on expansion, which tends to kills deer-sized game quicker. As the bullets get bigger, they are designed to lose less weight, since they will probably be used on bigger game.

This is one reason the 250 9.3mm chews up less meat than, say, the 180 .30. The other reason of course is impact velocity.

One of the basic principles of "killing power" is how much tissue the bullet chews up. This is why AccuBonds kill so quickly (and the same applies to Ballistic Tips, as well as some other bullets). If you don't want meat shot up, switch to a bullet that makes a smaller hole, like a TSX or E-Tip. But don't expect animals to drop quite as quickly on average.

These ar all basic rules of physics and animal anatomy, nothing magic. But still it kind of surprises me when somebody puts a quick-killing bullet in an animal's shoulder and then complains about meat loss.

Good points, Mule Deer-

There's always the option of waiting for a broadside shot, and shooting 'em behind the shoulder....

Can't win. Usually we gripe about bullets fragmenting, or not expanding. I have had good results with Interlocks, so guess I will stay with them.

Main reason I like Partitions, you get the best of both worlds.

Great! now I'm scared...I had planned on using 225 grain Accubombs in my .358 WSSM.

The reasons I prefer Barnes all-copper bullets are:

1) If I do have to penetrate more animal due to an unfavourable shooting angle - I know nothing will penetrate better.

2) The newer TSX's are SO accurate - in so many rifles.

3) In my experience, they destroy much less meat.

4) I don't like the idea of eating lead fragments.

5) I can use a lighter bullet, gain more impact speed, have a flatter trajectory and get penetration equal to or greater than a much heavier cup & core bullet.

No bullet is perfect for every game, in every situation - of course.

But, Barnes bullets are better in most of situations that I shoot game - and for that - I just love 'em!

Well done.

I use the 7mm TSX in my 7mm-08(140 gr). It works well on elk, deer and lopes but was a bit lacking on bison. Penetrated well but took many holes through the lungs.

Since I got the 9.3 it has become my go to elk gun.

When you have a standing elk in the open quartering toward you but looking at you, you're not going to get a broadside or quartering away shot...except at a dead run. This is a very good shot but your opportunity is VERY short so you'd better forget waiting for a broadside and put some lead in the air or you'll have nothing better than a Texas heart shot.

MD, is there any difference in construction between the 180 and 200 partition in 30 cal or is the change between calibers. I ask because I started shooting the 180's in my 06 over 48 gr of RL15 limping along at 2625 fps. At 300+ yards it still tore up more speedgoat than I like to see.

I built a 338 federal for a guy and he shot a big cow elk at 427 yds with the accubond. The bullet went in behind the last rib and disappeared out the front of the chest. It didn't ruin much meat at all. The accubond might be a better bullet for the more modest cartridges and to help ensure longer range expansion.

I second that.

And accubombs recoil very sharply, as compared to what yer used to.........It appears......

There are a lot of guys here who don't live and breath metallurgy, bullet construction, etc. We just want the best bullet for the purpose. I started this topic to inform the average hunter that there might be a better bullet than an AB. We were getting some good info and keeping it civil in the process. I think you own this group an apology for trying to turn the discussion nasty.

I've never had a problem with one outa an -06 at around 2750mv. bullet hole in bullet hole out and tissue damage similar to what I'm seeing from a 140PT out of a 7mm-08. Never recovered an AB from the -06. But do not at all like results I see from the AB at higher velocitys.

Wow Are You Serious? An apology, for giving his explanation of how these bullets generally perform, giving the point of impact etc. I sure dont want or expect an apology from someone giving valuable feedback gleaned from years of actual experience,

A 300 WSM at 100 to 150 yds has the same velocity as a 30-06 at the muzzle. In my case, the elk was at 250 to 300 yds. The bullet would have slowed to about the same as a 30-06 at 100 to 150 yds. So, we're talking about the same velocities here, just a bit difference in range.

Anyone have experience with the .24 or .25 AB's? Maybe they are the ticket for turning a .243 or .25 06 and the like into an elk gun. Some of this is a little hard to understand, not picking at any one thing, but using a 180 on antelope, great big bullets on deer and elk. The large calibers came from the old days with regular bullet construction. The only thing worse than ruined meat is meat that runs way off and disappears.

DON'T try that. A while back I was on Nosler's site looking for info & I found a statement that specifically said that AB's smaller than 30 cal were not designed for elk and larger. They're too fragile & will blow up before they penetrate. I just tried to find it again but didn't. I don't remember where on their site I found it but it was definitely there.

My son dropped his elk with a 115 Combined Technology Ballistic Tip in 25 cal. DRT and lost maybe 5 pounds of meat. Silly kid is going to use the same bullet on what we hope is a big mountain mule deer any day now. This was out of a 25-06 Remmy. I would use a 110 Accubond without a second thought on any elk in Colorado. That said, I'll use a 100 TSX at 3600 out of my 257 Weatherby next.

Swift Aframe; Nosler Partition.

Switch to a 200 grain AB and quit shooting them in the shoulders...

Third.

What was very interesting in this thread for me, was the 427 yd elk with a 338 Federal.

eastplace,

Was that the 180 or 225 grain? Assuming the former.

My only experience with AB's so far is with the 130 grain, which shoots bugholes from one of my 6.5 X 55's at around 2700. Two deer, one just short of 400 yards, one at 20. The far deer was DRT, the close deer ran fifty feet. Bullets worked well, I thought. I have a box of 150 grain .30's, haven't decided yet what I'll load them in.

Dakotakid, +1, MuleDeer owes none of us an appology, I'm always thankfull to get some of his advise.

There are times when the shoulder is your best or only option. Use a bullet capable of doing the job when needed. The AB isn't it.

Sorry I just dont buy into that. I dont have a recovered Accubond yet because the 2 whitetails I've shot with my .280 Rem.have been complete pass-thrus and both DRT.

As a sidebar to the original post every head of game I've ever field dressed and cut up in 30 years of hunting has had plenty of bloodshot lost meat if shot in the shoulder.
That applies to moose,elk and deer and bullets from every maker.

Bone fragments cause at least as much damage as the original projectile.

Just my .02 cents for what its worth.

A Shoulder Blast is never going to fair well if it's lack of meat loss your after!!

Just my humble opinion.

Rob

DRT is great and a shoulder shot will do it but, if it's done, don't complain about spilled milk.

Again, just my opinion.

Rob

180 grain out of a Winchester 670, 338 federal, Shilen 24" tube, clover leafs three shots. This gun might shoot better but the first load he tried shoots like this so he loaded up a bunch and started shooting. I will ask him the recipe, he found it an a magazine article.

Wow, that sounds reasonable - the same weight bullet recoils more - I'm glad we have applied logic here....

When did DRT get so darned important? Can't anyone stand for an animal to go 100 yds any more? I understand if you're in the mountains and hunting goats or sheep on cliffs, or elk next to a canyon rim, but seriously, DRT has become more talked about than almost anything else these days. I for one plan on shooting my next deer at 100 yds or less with a boolit I cast myself from either a .357 Max pistol/carbine set up or a cast boolit from my .30-06. I doubt I'll get DRT performance, but I know I'll get through and through penetration and I'll eat right up to the hole.
Selmer
PS - Yes, this is in fairly predictable situations. If I were to book a hunt and put thousands of dollars in it, I would be toting the .30-06 stoked with 165 gr. Partitions.

Now that's funny. Using the words REASONABLE and LOGIC in a discussion about bullet selection. Apologize Selmer!

Now you're talking. I have a hard time using the AB on elk in .257, as well.
I shot 3 different bullets into milk jugs at 655 yards, a 100gr sierra, 110gr AB and 100gr TSX. All fired from a 25-06. The sierra and TSX blew the jugs and kept going. I found the AB inside the jug, fully expanded...hmmm

I've put TSX's from 7mm and .243 through deers' shoulders and could always eat right up to the hole.

Here's synopsis of this discussion so far. Many have seen bad performance from AB's. A few have had good performance. The experiences are enough to say that there's reason to question the overall performance of AB's. Very few will question the performance of Partitions, X bullets, and some others. I've personally had equal or better performance with standard Speer Hotcore spitzers. So, why use a bullet that's consistantly drawn criticism for bad performance? They're a little cheaper than other premium bullets, to be sure, but questionable performance is a good reason to spend a bit more.

Rock Chuck,

I had no intention of turning this discussion nasty. I was just stating a fact.

Maybe did I assume that anybody who is on the Campfire much would know that AccuBonds are designed to lose some weight, just like Partitions. This is why they make such a big hole--and tend to kill more quickly than bullets that retain more weight and don't make such a big hole. So essentially you were complaining about the bullet doing exactly what it was designed to do.

One thing that's become apparent to me in my years on the Campfire is that many hunters do not really understand how expanding bullets do their work, and too often judge them on things that are kind of irrelevant, especially whether or not they exit, or how much weight they retain. And when we talk about how GREAT a certain bullet is, it's often on those terms.

At the opposite end of the spectrum was a guy who chose 140 .270 Fail Safes when they first appeared for a Dall sheep hunt, because he'd read how GREAT they were. Then he complained after the hunt because his ram went 100 yards after being lung-shot with this great bullet. The problem was that he was expecting a super-penetrating bullet to make a huge hole and drop the ram right there. That's not the way things work.

Personally (and you can call me old-fashioned) I tend to judge bullets on how well they kill game, not how much weight they retained, or whether they go on out the other side, or what the bullet looks like after expansion. But it seems to me the bottom line is consistent, clean kills. And, as others have stated here, I have generally found that ANY expanding bullet will cause cnsiderable damage when put into a shoulder. I have even seen whole quarters pretty much ruined by X-bullets, especially if driven very fast.

The AccuBond, like the Partition, is designed to lose some weight and hence kill quicker. Both are also designed to retain most of the shank and so penetrate reasonably well. That's why both are a good choice as an all-around big game bullet. If you put either in meat they will make a big hole in the meat, but they will also make a big hole in vitals. That is what they were designed to do. If that's not what you're looking for, fine, use a TSX or an E-Tip--though they are no guarantee against shot-up meat. Not much is, except an arrow. But it isn't logical to complain about an AccuBond performing exactly as it was designed to do.

eastplace,

The partition in 200-grain Nosler Partitions is placed further forward than in the 180--and the 180's is placed further forward than in the 165, and the 165's further forward than in the 150. Thus the heavier Partitions will retain more shank and penetrate deeper than lighter ones. This is generally true of Partitions in any caliber.

In the really big Nosler Partitions from 9.3mm up, the partition is placed so far forward that they normally average about 90% weight retention. This is because such bullets are usually used on much bigger game. Yet because they start out fatter in the first place they usually kill smaller game very well, because they open up so easily. I have had great results on deer-sized game with both the 286 9.3 and 300 .375, for instance.

I read an article the other day in which a .277 Accubond didn't give desired results on a big animal. Believe it or not, the author actually admitted that it was his fault for picking that bullet over something known to be tougher!

Get a bigger gun and shoot solids.
BBJ

Or get closer and shoot cast boolits at 2000 fps or less. They did the job for centuries, and still will.
Selmer

tirty-tirty

woofer

Or........

Just pick the appropriate bullet for what you are shooting and how you intend to shoot it. (grin)

I hunted most of last year with Ballistic Tips, which I like for whitetails, but I knew better than to shoot one up the chute. I was hoping to hit one lengthwise with a light/fast TSX, but of course that buck stood perfectly broadside.

Can't think of a time when I pulled the trigger that I wanted the animal to go someplace else and die.

Seems like many brag about bang flops and drt's. With the exception of brain and spine, those kind of kills usually require busting stuff up. Meat is stuff.

Bottom line for me over the years continues to point to monolithic expanders as the best compromise. I'm not thrilled on going lighter though, IE I'll use a 168 as the lightest in a 30 cal mag.

The partitions proved some depth of penetration lacking for me, in 180s on nilgai, out of a 300 mag. I should have gone to 200s...

But I went to X bullets and I can say this, if you need to dump them right now break some bone, and you can trim around the wound, something I never did with cup and core very much. I will admit I've never pushed an X over about 3500 fps, yet very little damage so far.

Compared to standard and even the partition, I just plain see dead animals everytime I shoot and much less wasted meat, regardless of the impact area. I got to one point where we needed to go out and dump some does and leave real quick so we road around, and I didn't have the best of shots, most facing me, and very little damage meat wise, compared to the waste I'd have seen with other bullets.

Yep its your choice as mentioned, and I'd never be surprised at tossing some meat with a non monolithic type bullet. ITs why its monolithics for me, even for deer. They don't break the bank and they work fine in every situation. Thats win win to me period. There is no downside that I can see so far.

Of course I don't require DRT, yet I can get it if I need it to happen. But I am like a few others, I don't like the waste of meat if I can avoid it.

I do not buy into a few lead frags in meat hurting me though....And I'm much rather bite into a lead pellet in my duck rather than a steel one... but I digress

Do accubonds work? Sure, but I consider them the cup and core that they are, nothing else, and expect that damage as a result. Its much like JB said, the folks that like to see a huge hole, lots of blood and guts, and a DRT kill and are happy, were generally VERY unhappy when they tried X types.
Personally I don't generally see what the big deal is about DRT... there are very few instances where its a must have IMHO.

Jeff

Plenty of folks that shoot deer broadside complain about X Bullets! Accubonds are designed to retain about 65% of their mass. The front acts like a Ballistic Tip and blows up quickly, the bonded thick jacketed rear remains for deep penetration!

Clearly you need to consider shot placement before you pull the trigger.

The Accubond is more or less a compromise between a BT and a solid copper bullet. IMO, it is a good all around choice, you don't like the BT part so don't use it.....but I bet that when you shoot a deer broadside with a Barnes X bullet and only hit lungs that you will complain that it ran 150 yards!

edge.

I will use whatever kills quicker...to quote Elmer Kieth.."I like to do my huntin before I shoot". Could care less about a few pounds of meat..after all coyotes have to eat too! Besides less weight to pack out.

LC

Wait...the elk was dead, and so was the deer right??? Sounds like it did its job to me...maybe I am mistaken somehow.

That kind of puzzled me too. It hit the shoulder, and was recovered from under the hide 2/3 of the way back along the rib cage, "perfectly mushroomed." Yet somehow it isn't adequate for shoulder shots?

I have, by the way, seen exactly the same performance from monolithic expanding bullets on game from deer up. Apparently it becomes pretty diffcult for a bullet to make it through the hide at an angle after busting a shoulder and angling through the chest cavity. Or at least that seems to be the case to me after seing it happen quite a few times.

I nominate this as the gayest post of the year....

Done it several times. Never had one run more than 75 yards, with 90% of them DRT.

Give me any kind of bullet in the .375 range other than pistol bullets and I can kill them dead with no yardage from the critter and it will only have busted ribs with lungs like mush and an exit the size of a golfball. Most times I never find the bullet. But I avoid shoulder shots because the hole will be big enough to push a football in. LOL. Placement and angles guys.

I haven't read anything in this entire thread that'll keep me from shooting Accubombs in some of my rifles that really like them. OTOH, I could like a whole lot of other bullets on Elk if that were my quarry. Like 378Canuck said, "placement and angles guys".....

"He was quartering toward me. I hit him in the shoulder, clipping but not breaking the bone. I found the bullet about 2/3 of the way back in the ribcage. It was mushroomed beautifully, a classic mushroom."

"They're killers, to be sure, but I don't need just a killer."


Its gotta be letters, emails, and statements like this that cause ballistic engineers to run screaming from the room and seriously contemplate a career in alcoholism and golf.

I've known some people that would fit into the descriptive phrases like "If they ain't bitchin', they ain't talkin" and "You could give them a solid gold watch and they would complain about how much it weighs!"

I rest my case, and will kill deer with Accubonds some day. Heck, I love Ballistic Tips and it will be hard to switch! Yes, I butcher all of my own deer at home.
Selmer

Some ramblings from the past:

Core Locks: Used a lot, years ago. Have had them drop right now, and
some ran. Sometimes meat tore up bad, sometimes not. Still one of my favorites for consistent results.

Ballistic Tips. "First Generation."-Just blew the inside up.
Can't remember a lot of meat damage. All shots
up front however. Most didn't go to far.

Those made in the last 5 years: A lot more
penetration. But still fast acting.

Partitions: .30-06: 165 and 180gr. Steady and reliable. Animal
size didn't make much difference. Some ran aways
some didn't.

Sierra Game Kings: .30-06: Placement became more critical. But
they worked. Some ran, some didn't. Fast acting. Used only on deer, penetration could be an issue with hits back aways. Never did it so I'm just guessing on that point.

Tsx: Only one animal, .30-06 165gr, Mt.Goat
40yards, came out of recoil and he was laying
on his side. Quarter size exit, both
shoulders and stuff in between broken.

Seems like from my experience and observing the results of others, it is not always a cut and dry answer. I don't like to waste meat unnecessarily, but if a pound gets lost here or there I don't get excited about it. How many trim the rib meat or take their animal to the butcher? I've seen those guys "working" when they have a lot of animals to process. Saving every last ounce isn't part of the job description.

If I was overly concerned about lost meat, it would be big caliber and bullet weight combined with moderate velocity along with just about any proven bullet. As I get older, I'm not as fond of recoil, so that leaves many of that class out. However to me the .338Fed may be a good compromise and I hope to see how it works this year.

As someone else said: I would rather waste some meat and punch my tag rather than waste everything and not punch my tag.

Addition: To paraphrase Wayne VanZowell: A little fragmentation is not all that bad. Those pieces don't just disappear. They go someplace inside the animal and it just may be to the heart or spine and could save what may be a lost animal. In one of his articles he comments on how balanced todays ballistic tips are for an all around bullet. I put a lot of faith in his experience, knowledge and common sense. To me the Accubond is just an improved ballistic tip.

Do it a few hundred more and I bet some will go further!

I could care less what you use, but if you make a conscious decision to pick a varmint bullet, a solid, a monolithic, or any combination then accept the consequences of that decision.

I have no doubt that if you pick a VMax and hit everything in the neck that they will drop fast....

I like the Accubond as an all around bullet. Not the best in all situations, but pretty good for most.

edge.

Yes but it's been stated multiple times that in order to make a Barnes work you need to hit bone.

Would you rather eat bone fragments?

Also, I have yet to eat or taste lead in any animal I have shot.

\

Where's the rest of the original statement? You took this out of context and totally changed it's meaning.

This is totally pathetic. I started this thread to help some guys who aren't familiar with all the various types of bullets. I've been misquoted, called names, one SOB even called me queer. Is there no one here who can have a civil discussion? Apparently not. Goodbye.

battue,

Wayne does indeed know what he's talking about, and from experience rather than theory.

One time he and I were discussing the 200-grain .338 Ballistic Tip, now sadly discontinued. It was the first of the heavy-jacket BT's and Wayne and I had both used it quite a bit in Africa, both shooting the .338 Winchester Magnum. According to many armchair theorists this was a bad idea, but both Wayne and I had great luck taking all sorts of plains game up to kudu size with them. One gemsbok I shot at about 150-175 when quartering toward me dropped right there with a broken shoulder AND broken spine, and the bullet was found under the skin on the rump on the opposire. Even the PH's were impressed. But no, Ballistic Tips just aren't enough for that kind of work....

The 200-grain AccuBond, by the way, is just a bonded version of the 200 BT.

I thought some who have been on this thread would also be interested in the "Barnes TSX Failure" thread on the General Big Game forum. Of particular interest are the close-ups photos of the shoulder area of a zebra shot with a 168 TSX.

It's not just speed, it's how fast the bullet expands and dumps KE into the surrounding tissue. A fast FMJ won't damage much meat, a fast frangible bullet will ruin the most.

For my money the Nosler Partition is the way to go. I've shot animals as small as a young blacktail buck to a bull elk at ranges from 30 to 320 yards and rarely lose more than a pound or so of meat just around the entrance wound.

Maybe you owe the forum an apology for posting such rubbish.
If you dont want meat damage, dont shoot the through the shoulders. Pretty simple concept.

One of the best comments on bullet performance and expectations ever on here and IMO, 1,0000000 % on target.

I find it hard to understand some people's fascination with the requirement of 100% pass thru penteration, bang flop /DRT & no meat damage.

I've killed more animals with Partitions than all other bullets combined and have zero complaints, just praise and reverence..........last 4-5 years, have used TSX's and TBBC's with equally happy results; TTSX's & E-Tips may be next, just because they're there, not because any of the others are lacking.

No, I've not used Accubonds, as I've seen no need.

JMHO

MM

Just back tonight from a week of pronghorn wacking with the 110 gr. AB. 4 animals taken between 150 to 250 yards from a MV of 3100.

Animals went down fast with exit holes noticeably larger than I was getting with the 100 gr. Speer boattail. Used up the Speer's on a pdog town on the last day.

too much fun

I'm confused. You're complaining about the loss of meat due to a shoulder shot, but that was where you aimed? Why?

Sure is funny how a Barnes X bullet can tumble or fail to expand and you get all kinds of explanations/ excuses for it but let a Nosler Poly tip bullet kill an elk quickly and all you hear is condemnation.

Accubonds as most require proper placement for maximum effect, If saving meat is your thing, it is for me,, try the third visible rib past the shoulder

The only Accubonds I have experience with were 140gr 7mm out of a 7x57 with 50.0gr H4350. I DID NOT see the damage as being equal to the Ballistic Tip. My son shot 3 whitetail last year from about 105lbs to 135lbs, the size where blood shot meat should have been very apparent. The largest deer was shot at about 100 yds thru the back of the right shoulder and out the front of the left shoulder without hitting any bone except ribs. Deer went about 10 feet and the shoulders were absolutely not jellied. Smallest deer was hit from about 40 yds in the left shoulder socket destroying it then traveled to the rear stopping against the femur in the right ham. Measured penetration was +/- 32". Messed up the shoulder with bone fragments but not the jellying I have seen with BT's. Go figure.

There ya go!! Ever wonder how the pioneers shot all them thousands of deer and moose with 30-30's? LOL

My son and I have shot more than a few deer with the 140gr. AB's from a 270WSM and 2 deer with the 110gr. AB's out of a 25-06. Whether one believes that DRT's are necessary or more desirable or not, that has been my experience with the AB's.......each time. I, for one, appreciate such results, especially when most of our PNW deer only need to fall in place at the shot and they're already in the thick stuff and can be very difficult to find. We have many different, low lying bushes which exhibit beautiful fall colors right about now......many of them blood red in color..........not so helpful when one finds it necessary to track any non-DRT animal any distance, much less 150 yards or so.

We've recovered only 2 of the AB's and if we're looking for "beauty" here as an indication of effectiveness, they were both Homecoming Queens. I do coax both these cartridges along at healthy speeds and have asked them to perform well from 80-305 yards, which they have done quite well. They do expand and cut a notably wide swath on broadside, double lung, nicked or split a rib type shots.

From my observations, albeit limited only by our State's bag limits and time out on the market, I will continue to use the AB's on deer sized game on down. I have no doubt that they can be effective medicine on elk as well in the larger cal./cartridges/weights, but there are bullets available out there that more specifically address the larger/thicker/hardier game on the menu. For those moments and/or situations, I have found both the NP's and TSX's to give outstanding performance.

I think that giving oneself a bit of a "cushion" with the bullets we choose to use on specific game is a prudent move. We all strive for perfect shot placement and should. Whether we all strive for the least meat loss is of no consequence to some, while important to others. I think that most would hope to experience a DRT shot, while others sound as if they somewhat expect a 150 yard tracking job each season. For me, give me a bullet that will penetrate to the vitals even when the whole scenario goes south and my perfect broadside shot turns into a shoulder shot rather than a double lunger.

I think that AB's can be very effective on deer even in a miscalculated and misplayed situation, while TSX's or NP's and the like do the same for elk on up. Using "enough gun" is no more important than using "enough bullet", IMHO. When we do our part, using that "perfect for our needs" combination rarely fails to meet expectations. It's our individual and very specific "expectations" that seem to differ so much, which seems to be just enough impetus for some to take issue with.....when none really exists as these things are just that......our own expectations.

Just my thoughts.......

Rock Chuck,
Maybe Im missing something but it does not appear the accubond performance was a secret before your post. To me it looks like it did everything you wanted it to do. Im sorry you lost half a shoulder but that still leaves you with 3 1/2 quarters to make meat from.

What bullet would have been a better choice for you considering the same placement and speeds? Im guessing a conventional cup and core would have given all of the meat damage without the extra penetration.

Congrats on your elk and enjoy your steaks.

So little time, so many bullets...

I'm sorry, I'm so very, very sorry.

I've seen bloodshot meat from every bullet on the market.

Once again, I'm sooo sorry.

That's classic man. Great line.

Thanks for posting the results!! Sounds like perfect performance to me, I'm gonna have to try some of those!

I though the whole purpose of a bullet was to ensure a quick and humane kill on an animal.

Sounds like it worked just like it was supposed to.

I am sorry you lost some meat (sincerely, not sarcastic), but to me a quick and humane kill is the first priority. Loss because of bloodshot meat is a distant second, and I hate to lose meat as much as anyone.

Bill

I noticed that the accubond is being fired by magnum cartridges for the most part, what if you used a 140gr in 7mm-08 for elk?the reduced velocity may be a very good combination.

I went to 2 different sporting goods stores trying to find 30 cal. 165 grains accubonds and both were out. The third time was a charm. The secert is out. Sportmans warehouse has the smallest inventory of any store that I have ever shopped at. They only carry 2 boxes maxium of any one bullet. I am glad that Costco more than 2 of everything in there store. Must be some hunters know more than I -- shop early and buy accubounds.

I am going to load up 50 rounds of 30-06 using 56.5 grains of IMR 4350 tonight. Rock Chuck from your description they are going to work just fine come Sunday Morning in Southwest Montana and if I lose a 1/2 front shoulder to bullet damage then I have a second tag. One cow and nothing less than a 300 six point for the second.

I will bet you that for each elk kill on the average over a half of a shoulder is wasted from age of freezer burn. GO ACCUBONDS --_ I JUST NEED A KILLER.

quote:
"The bloodshot area was massive, going back about halfway down the ribcage on the NEAR side. "

Sorry, i just don't believe that was actual "bloodshot" - which is defined as disrupted muscle tissue where the blood is IN the muscle, not just around it. It is perfectly normal for blood to run in-between the shoulder and ribs of any animals shot in that general area. The interstitial blood is not "bloodshot", it is just the natural path that blood takes between tissues. Blood flowing in-between the external muscles and ribs in the shoulder area will occur with bowshot as well as rifle shot game. That blood cleans up with some light knife work and paper towels. I have often seen, and I am not impressed with hunting buddies who throw away perfectly good meat because the SURFACE is covered with clots of jellied blood. Clean it up!
Just so you don't think I am another "armchair expert", I butcher ALL my own big game and that of family members, (well over 100 head to date) and I come from four generations of butchers. I have also studied veterinary anatomy. Belive me, blood running halfway down the ribcage is NORMAL with many shoulder shots.
I have very limited experience with the AB, but see no reason to condemn that bullet.

Very fine post....

I'm glad I ordered 400 Accubond 160 grain 7MM bullets from Shooterspro shop last time they were on sale.

Yeah. That is a possible 800 bloodshot elk shoulders

I am jealous, and wish I had 3 1/2 quarters of great tasting elk, no doubt. Great posts, no condemnations of the bullet, or the original poster here.

Loaded 130s in my 260 and 6.5x55 for deer/hog this season and have no concerns.

My first deer was shot with what I THOUGHT was a 'downloaded by me' 7mag ADL-old stainless bbl 700....Speer manual load.....later called them and they confirmed my 'reduced load' was about max, as they later learned the load was originally in a gun that was safe, later found out to be too hot so they changed the test rifle and updated their manual.

Bottom line, my first deer, a nice 8pt whitetail of good size came out after grunting in...1987...loaded 145 BTSP....at 30 yds hit buck from a high angle from a ladder stand, hit the knuckle I suppose, and GOD Almighty I had COMPLETELY destroyed that shoulder. Bullet disintegrated on the first shoulder, destroyed first lung-jellied, and the second was fragment/damaged. The people from the camp across where I shot it, helped clean it, could not believe the damage. Hated to lose the meat, but ironically I never got more meat off a deer since, came back from the butcher w/74lbs of weighed meat inc. sausage, etc. so I was ONE happy camper!

Later I sold that gun, too much I figured, since killed deer with 6mm/7mm Br rifles, 243, 260, 7/08, 270, 6.5x55, 338/06 - (and Lord those 200 BTs were sweet at 2900+ on deer w/o too much meat damage) 44, 7TCU....all did the job, and do not recall ever seeing quite the destruction as the close impacted 7mag. The recoil was more than I cared for as I love to shoot....alot when I get to the range or just out for fun in the field....the gun was heavier than I wanted to tote, and the energy I deemed far excessive for MY needs.

I see a place for magnums and I, IF/WHEN I go after bears or game in Africe, but for now, I am happy w/o them for what I do. There may come a day for a rifle w/more capability and perhaps factory load convenience and options, 338WM, 375, or if I could handle a nice 416....but as much as I'd enjoy it, not sure the opportunity will present.

I think there is a good place for 'frangible game bullets' and the AB is not one I refer to, I have taken a few deer with 105 amax/6BR at 2840, one at 400 yds, double lunged/exited deer stumbled/fell w/in 25 yds, seconds earlier another died at 200yd spine shot-bullet vaporized-DRT kill, another head shot 40 yds, as well as coyote/fox and a beautiful bobcat that I was MOST happy to have used that very amax-raking from rear, bullet lost most mass inside as the exit was about a nickel sized...nice mount in my living room.

I may try some 140s in my 6.5s and if I were loading a 7/08 for deer a 162 amax would be tried as well as even on lung shot elk-and I know that will draw flames, but I feel at slower speeds, ESP. at very long range, the amax is VERY sure to expand where many may not at a distance.

All bullets are likely 'engineered' with a velocity window in mind, as well as intended game animal(s) to be shot.

That said, I was MOST happy to have put a 243 up the pipe of my #1 Ruger RSI after I settled in a stand a few years ago, loaded with an 85 gr. X. Why did I do that last minute instead of the 85 BTHPs in my pocket-curiosity for more knowledge. That bullet did a DRT on a very nice HOG at 240 yds, mv 3100 chronied.....and I would not have wanted ANY other bullet when I made that hit, it plain worked to perfection on the tough hided/gristled hog busting thru shoulder/lungs/bottom spine/off shoulder then stopping in hide...yet minimal meat damage. One might surmise that X is the end all.......I'll just say it has it's place, and rightly so. Looked just like the ads...

SO, my take on bullets, I choose what I feel is a 'best compromise' for what the situation is given cartridge speed, game animal, and distance shot. I ALSO consider shot placement which can vary. The 6mmBR double lunged as it was a larger kill zone at the 400 yds distance, the spine was taken on the 200 yd as the deer was facing away, and my gun was zeroed dead on there so I knew I was putting it in a CNS hit with precision, whereas the 40 yd doe was an evening shot and I wanted to minimize any tracking potential w/a body hit as it was at LAST legal light, it was standing looking my direction, so non moving. Did in another at the same 40 yds distance a few years earlier, another doe, but that time neck shot...why? I had a 70gr TNT in the 243...and why....it was what was last shot in the gun at the range playing with loads and it was what the RSI was sighted in for, so I grabbed those that morning over the 85x's and 85 BTHPs as for me, SHOT PLACEMENT was going to trump bullet choice on a soft skinned animal, and I KNEW that day, shot placement was going to HAVE to be perfect should an opportunity present, and I were to take that shot. Another time a deer was lunged by me/my 6BR 70 TNT at 200 yds, no sign of hit till it put on brakes and dropped 60 yds from impact...did the job as well as any bullet would have thru lungs I suppose. No exit just for the record-so a blood trail would not have been good if I had been in the woods instead of the open land in TX where I was at then. Again/pros-cons.

There are limits, pros/cons on all bullets, and various ones may be "PERFECT" for that SPECIFIC situation depending on MANY variables. All I can say, its not a matter of how fast they expand, how much damage they do (and more is sometimes desired-as it does this to vital tissue/AND meat/muscle) my goal is to use an accurate load, KNOW trajectory/range of shot, and do my best to place it where THAT bullet/load combo is expected to reliably penetrate to vitals aimed for, and destroy enough tissue for a quick clean kill. That said, I'll pass on FMJs unless it was all I had and I was in survival mode.

Meat damage is important, but I'll accept a lost shoulder whether by my bad shooting, intended good shooting, or a bullet that gets too 'excited' on impact, so long as I put my game down humanely and quickly, which lets me breathe easier as quickly after the shot as I can.....as many know one often may hold their breathe whether consciously or subconsciously during their shot....and follow thru on that hold a few seconds awaiting your animal to drop!

The same bullets that may be too soft on elk, or 'perceived' as a little soft may be found to be great on deer, meat damage aside as less penetration is often needed and I believe in transferring energy rapidly may trump a bullet that might be less expansive.....shot placement dependent. A lung shot deer for me would have me wanting an 85gr Sierra BTHP destroying soft tissue in a larger wound channel perhaps than a 100 partition..and yes I have used that partition in a 243 on a lung shot..but if I were shooting end to end, or where as in the woods where a small sapling not seen impedes the bullet to target, a partition would be desired over the 85.

I think many more 'conventional or bullets that are not considered high weight retaining bullets' are perceived as the end all, but let's not overlook how well softer constructed bullets can/have worked on game when the appropriate shot placement is made, which I feel is best used through lungs.

As illustrated above, I have used varmint bullets, conventional bullets, AND premium bullets all with SOLID success in the field, and glad to have the choices, via Speer/Sierra/Hornady/Nosler/Barnes, etc. I will continue using all at some point, but I do have to say for what I do, at non magnum speeds and on deer/hogs, I am REALLY thinking my 130 ABs may strike a good compromise on accuracy and killing power from most shot angles. The next 2 'all around' bullets of choice for me would be the 129 SP and the 125 partition-assuming it shot accurately.

Those above who use the 'stood the test of time' partitions add to the legacy....soft front core, remaining shank for penetrating so you get a 'combo' of both I reckon. Either extreme a case can be made....a solid for elephants.....a varmint bullet for prairie dogs....

For me I like to experiment a little...or alot I suppose to gain knowledge...but I hedge my bet for sure kills, no matter the bullet w/again....shot placement. If a shot requires meat loss to be sacrificed to obtain a quick kill, with bullet being used...so be it.

I have yet to kill w/an AB, but will gladly put them to the test I hope soon from a 6.5mm. My rationale, game is deer/hog, extreme penetration not needed but it will likely give more than say a ballistic tip should I need on a bad angle deer or a tougher hide/gristled hog (perhaps not - but that is my perception) and more 'expansion/shock' than a partition/barnes....yet if after elk, I would use them in a pinch if need be, but likely look for a bullet of tougher construction if heavy bone/bad angle encounted so it would be for the 'insurance effect.'

Ballistic tip fans, not to worry, I have I believe 1,500 6mm 95 grains just waiting for my next 6mm BR project...and my last BR put them out at 3,000 mv so I have plans for a few deer to succumb to them also. Had there been at the time ABs in the same bullet....I might have just chosen them as my 6.5s are cutting some nice small groups...and that is confident building and reassuring when it's time to squeeze off one at game.

Putting all the marketing/marketing hype, mental 'masturbation' as a fellow called it, May all hunters aim be true and freezers fill up regardless of what their bullet of choice is this season!

Well folks, got my 130 grain AB's sighted in today at 200 yds from 2 rifles:

After sight in yesterday at 100 yds, I took my Ruger K1A 6.5x55 this a.m. back to the range-again using my 6x42 German #4, and put 3 130gr Accubonds into 1 1/8" at 200 yds using 45.5gr IMR 4350 and Lapua brass. Chrony 2780 fps so I feel very excited about shooting a deer/hog hopefully with this set up.

My sons 260 Sako Grey Wolf put 3 130ab's into 3/4" at 200 yds, using a 2-7x35 3P#4 and followed up with a 2 shot group (saving ammo for hunting) into 5/8". Also IMR4350, but 44.0gr in FC308 brass, have 10 left for hunting, and another 50 in RP brass the same.

Let's just say that I could not ask for better accuracy from either rifle!

Both rifles BONE stock out the box, NOT bad I say, groups rival custom bbl rifles I have had!

My opinion, don't aim for the shoulders then. Any bullet going thru frontal meat area will cause loss of meat.

Hit them in the boiler maker and they go down. I use Accubonds in my 300WM (180gr) and 270WSM (140gr)and my soon to be 338-06AI (225gr). Mostly all 1 shot kills - double lung complete penetration. Small entrance wound, HUGE eixt, with major internal damage to lungs, heart, etc.

4th, but do understand the Gentleman sentiments I wouldn't want to tear an Elk up either after all the hard work one go through to harvest one. Accubonds are good bullets, but if that Barnes shoots right in mine I look no further...

Well said!

Yup.


Casey

IF you need any rec's on powder, I used IMR4320 in my 338/06 std, 2670 mv w/225s 23" bbl, put Speers, Noz, and Hornady all in same POI at 200 yds, and grouped all 1.25" w/6x42 duplex reticle. Used WW brass-'06. Nice round. What is your rifle built with...action/bbl/stock?

I must disagree completely. Coincidentally, the three critters I've whacked with AB's have all involved hiiting bone right at the start of the wound. In each case, the bullet performed beautifully.

I killed a HUGE cow elk day before yesterday... The 8mm 200-gb AB hit her elbow first as she moved across the hillside up above me at 270 yards. Then it hit a rib, took out the top of her heart, hit another rib and broke it, and poked a hole almost all the through the hide on the other side. The elk went DOWN!

I am thrilled with AB's!

jeff: See any big mule deer in SW Colorado?

Congrats on your cow elk! (I'll still take the Partition over the AB )

Good shot. What is your 8MM setup? Where was your faithful 358?

You should probably just use FMJs

Any expansive bullet(Yes, all copper included) will blood shot meat and make a mess when large bone is impacted. As another poster stated, even archery tackle gives blood shot meat. I killed two deer with archery this year and both had jellied blood under the hide. It simply scrapes off with a knife. Soak it in iced salt water if you really want to get rid of the blood.

Sounds like the Accubond did excellent on your elk. That's exactly the kind of performance I look for.

Good Luck

Reloader7RM

That's not really blood shot meat, it's just coagulated blood.

Several things come to mind from the post and that is the Accubond did exactly what it was supposed to do. Apparantly it is a bullet that works best for broadside shots in the lung area.

For Elk in my 300 H&H I use the 200 gr. Nosler partition and its a very good elk bullet IMO...

If you want to kill them pronto, then get a bigger bore like a 338 or 375 and use 300 gr. bullets, they do very little meat damage, cut a big hole and they leave great blood trails and kill very quickly..your shooting hi velocity with the 300 Win Mag. and that just equates to bloodshot meat and your not going to get around it and still kill them effectively.

I shot a large bull in NM a couple weeks ago with a 200gr 8mm Accubond in my .325, it did what it was suppose to do.

Friend of mine shot a nice 5x5 with a 30-40 Krag using 180 Power Points and it worked just as well.

For what it is worth - I have recovered a lot of the AccuBond bullets shot at 200 yards into a soft sand bank, they open up and stay together very well.

Mark