Earlier this year, I picked up an old Browning BAR Safari in 30-06 with a Bushnell 3x9 Elite 4200 for my first elk hunt ever in Montana. Unfortunately, the trip fell though and I'm enjoying deer hunting here in Michigan.

My little brain is always wondering if I can improve on the BAR. I've grown to appreciate carrying a peep sighted Savage 99 for deer hunting...much I believe due to lighter weight w/o a scope.

So for you weight-conscious western elk hunters, what to you tote? Would be interested to hear your thoughts on a Remington Model 7 in 308 or similar "compact" rifle. Is the short action and barrel length of a carbine of appreciable disadvantage out west?

I'm hoping an elk hunt will work out for next year and may trade the BAR for something lighter.

I'd get a Winchester M 70 Featherweight in .30-06 with a 2x-7x or 3x-9x scope and go forth and kill elk/deer.

Good advice right here. I am not a fan of semi-auto big game rifles. I've been around too many that failed in the field. Mostly because of operator error doe to a lack of cleaning or getting the rifle prepared for sub-zero temps. If you want something different than a bolt action, I'd be more inclined to get a Rem. pump action .308/30-06/.270Win.. No need for a scope over 9 power and better yet if you can convince yourself to got 6x36 Leupie or 6x38 Weaver.
Good luck.

Its heavy because its an auto. Keep the scope and switch to a bolt like the Tikka T3 30-06.

My choice for elk hunting has been a Kimber Montana in 300 WSM. You can enjoy a light rifle AND a scope.

donsm70

I think your 308 idea would work just fine. Are you hunting in the mountains or across the prairies? If it's steep lighter is better.

I'd go with something like a 270 or 30/06 that is relatively inexpensive to shoot if you are not a handloader, and then practice like hell on being able to shoot quickly and accurately from standing, sitting and kneeling positions. If you are like most, you are way overthinking what rifle to use and way UNDERTHINKING being able to hit a pie plate size area at 300 yards quickly.

^^^^^


This�EXACTLY


And you can improve on the BAR by getting something with a bolt handle�.

if you like Brownings, consider a BLR as an alternative.

I hunt with a .358 BLR, and really like it. very lightweight, and shoots great out to about 300 yards.

I echo the others. Ditch the semi auto and weight. Get something light with a good trigger. Don't need anything bigger than 3x9 scope, though I prefer a 4.5x 14, even though it rarely is used over 6x. I've been running a kimber Montana and tikka t3 the past few years with no complaints.

I believe that the weight of a rifle really doesn't matter as much as being able to accurately hit your target. That being said my rig weighs just under 10 lbs scoped up and ready to go and I'm okay with that, but that's JMHO.

Shameless plug, but I've got a stainless A-bolt in .30-06 for sale in the classifieds. It has accounted for 5 elk, many deer, and one antelope.


P

YES!!!

I've got the cheapest solution for you.

Get in shape, and keep the BAR.

S-I-L did just that. He's on a run of 5 elk in 5 years, nothing big, but for DIY on public ground by a non-resident that isn't bad.
1st one he hit at 45 yards with a 165 TSX out of a Ruger stainless 300 mag. in heavy timber. Decided he didn't like nearly 10 lbs to carry or the recoil.
2nd one was another raghorn but with his old 7 mag 160 AccuBond at 200 yards
3rd was a cow at around 200 with the M70 Fwt 165 TTSX. Took 3 shots, 2 of them better placed than the 1st. Wasn't real happy with the lack of reaction to the hits though the shooting could of been beter.
4th was a cow at 450(GPS Co-ordinates not lazered) with the M70 and 165 Partitions. Went through both shoulders and dropped her right there. Full exit.
5th was a cow at 40 yards in the black timber. Same M70 30-06 and 165 Partitions, found the bullet under the hide after going through both shoulders. She went 20 yards.

He's convinced that he's found the perfect elk rifle. I'm convinced I need to stick closer to him so I can get a shot!

Bolts are 100x more common than autos for a reason - they're lighter and more reliable. A 30-06 is plenty for elk but I sure do like my 300 WSM although I've never killed an elk with it that couldn't have been killed just as well with a 270 or 30-06. A 308 is also very good.

I tote a post 64 Mod 70, 300 win mag. Chet Brown stock, Harris Bipod, hunter sling, Zeiss 4.5 X 14, and 8 rounds on the stock. Been out 20 days with it this year and next and last hunt starts this week with a bow.

I hunt thick stuff for elk. My model seven in 260 Rem weighs 6.5 pounds loaded and is always in my hands. I don't have a sling on it and therefore never get caught slung with an elk eyeballing me. If I hunted in big open country I might be tempted to go bigger/heavier. So part of the answer to your question is where are you going hunt?

No love for the BAR!!?? My dad's been hunting with a 1982 .30-06 BAR ever since he bought it, damn thing shoots as good as any non-custom bolt gun I've ever been around and its never failed! I love bolt guns myself and I only hunted a couple years with that BAR till I bought my own gun. If you've got the money go ahead and get a bolt, that BAR would be an eastern whitetails nightmare if thats the route you go. I don't like to hunt with any scope smaller than a 4.5x14, just personal preference.

Stick with a Savage 99 in .300 Savage. Something about hunting in the woods in the Upper Midwest just says that combo to me. You would also need a red plaid, wool Mackinaw and matching hat to complete the scenario. Personally, I would but a 4x or 6x fixed scope on it, though in my younger years (eyes) a peep sight would be cool.

The Model7 with a fixed 4X leupold will weigh just over #7. My caliber of chose in that weight rifle would be 7-08. Recoil should be pretty tolerable too.

1. Ditch the BAR and get something lighter.

2. If the scope doesn't have a drop compensating reticle, get one that does.

3. Practice out as far as you can. Even if you don't end up taking a 400-500 yard shot it will help you improve your shoooting at shorter ranges, too.

4. Practice a lot.

5. Get in shape.

6. Study the area you plan to hunt. know where the elk are likely to be and where they are likely to go. Maps, Google earth, people familiar with the area, anything you can find.

Bingo . I have a BAR II which i have owned for about 6 months chambered in that gay 270 Winchester with a Leupold VX-R mounted on it. Heck of a nice gun and I have owned about a dozen of these in either 7mm 30-06 or 300 win mag. This is the lightest one and shoots factory ammo as well as any bolt gun.....well maybe not like a Tikka T3

I think you are over thinking it for sure. In all the years elk hunting ( which are a lot) I have run across a lot of NR hunters here in Colorado and they mostly bring what they hunt deer with in MN, PA,OH, everywhere and they all kill elk when the opportunity is there.

It makes more of a difference of how good a hunter they are vs what kind of rifle they carry. A lot of them from MN,WS and PA carry the Remington Semis, usually in.06 or .270,as they are use to hunting in heavy cover where shots are fast and close. Some carry levers ,even in 30-30. I every once in awhile hunt with Marlin 94 in 44 mag.

The horror stories I hear of missed elk, are usually with hunters who show up with a new rifle that they have no experience with or someone told them nothing but a big magnum will kill elk and they quickly get recoil shy.

Bring what you have, spend your money on good accessories, but not necessarily every high tech gadget on the market. Spend your time on researching the area you plan to hunt

Get in shape, but that doesn't mean you have to run 10 miles a day carrying 50 lb pack .Juts reasonably good muscle tone and cardio workouts

Good advice here.

If I was to rank items of most importance, I'd likely start with being in shape. You can have the best elk spot on the planet with a gazillion 400" elk but if can't get to them, you might as well stick near camp. Next would be learning to hunt elk. I considered starting with this one but have taken people to great spots but they couldn't make it to where we needed to go. Third is attitude. As Mark D used to say "show up with a PMA - positive mental attitude." Long hikes, steep slopes, few elk sitings will have the Craft-Matic calling your name after a couple days. Fourth is equipment in general. The gun is not rocket science but the thing we all obsess over. I'm guilty as anybody. A lightweight 30-06 is God's gift of an elk rifle. The Kimber Montana is pretty dang close to perfection in that respect.

If you like the BAR, then by all means take it. A friendly word of advice - them hills is steep and oxygen is in short supply. I've heard people say to lose an extra couple of pounds instead of switching rifles. Suggest you do both.

My first elk hunt saw me buying a new M700 BDL in 338 WM. It weighed 9 lbs but I was going to be ready for the 'tough shot' and have the horsepower to make it happen. Did manage to see elk and a bull but the thing that I recall most was how heavy that rifle felt after hiking around at 10,000 feet for a couple of days.

After having killed a few elk now, the 30-06 should be the standard from which all other rifles are judged - at least for my style of hunting which is mobile and getting to far away nooks and cranny's. Plunking a 180 Nosler at 2750-2800 into an elks lungs at 400 yards will yield a dead elk. A 180 Nosler at 2800 drops something like 16-17" at 400 yards. Basic top of back hold. 400 yards is still a long way.

You gotta get to the elk, you have to find the elk, and you got to be able to hit them when you see them. Not really many ways to shortcut the first two and a bunch of ways will get you the last.

Good luck.

I much prefer a bolt action to other actions.. If you like an 06, pick the bolt action of your choice..

I think many over think their choice of rifles for hunting; myself included. There is nothing wrong with the BAR or the Savage 99. Bring both. Use the savage as a back-up or hunting dark timber.

If you want something lighter, there are several good choices out there. A Kimber Montana in standard chambering would be hard to beat.

You mean something else will????? The magnum crowd aint gonna take that lightly.

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I'm not familiar with the terrain we were supposed to hunt as I was a "tag-along" but was told to be ready for up to 250 yard shots. I'd like to think I could move in closer than 250 yards but thats coming from my eastern hunting perspective. Seems a 308 bolt would be just the ticket for a lighter weight rifle.

I had spent time and effort getting into shape and shooting and will continue to do so in hopes of going next year.

I'm in no rush to dump the BAR either. However, I may jump if a deal on the right 308 (or 30-06) bolt gun passes my way.

Cmon...admit you just want to buy a new gun.

I hunted my whole life with a lever action 30-30 with no lost elk. What you think you need, and what you want are different.

That an interesting point.
The BAR as well as any decent firearm can take elk.
Competency with the firearm is a great thing to have.
Know your firearm and your capabilities practice often at different ranges and positions will provide the greatest returns when it comes time to pull the trigger in the field.

It all depends on whether your primary focus is the rifle or the hunting. For most kinds of elk hunting, the number of rifle choices are daunting. Most of them will probably work for 95% of the elk hunting that occurs, provided they shoot where they look and the guy with his finger on the trigger can shoot.

If you want to shoot elk from more than a quarter of a mile away, the choices narrow somewhat. Stretch it out to a half-mile and you have eliminated all but a handful of choices. If you like to prowl thick timber and shoot elk out of their beds, the choices narrow again, but not as much as with the long range shooting.

For me, I want a rifle in which I have confidence, one that I can carry for the kinds of hunting that I do, and a cartridge/bullet combination that will kill quickly and humanely. Any number of rifles commercially available will probably fill the bill. After that is where the "loonyism" kicks in: the choice of bolt vs. lever vs. semi-auto vs. single shot rears its ugly head.

I am a bolt action and single shot kind of guy, but I prefer CRF bolt actions and falling block single shots. I have a few high-dollar customs that I like to shoot and fondle. However, I like my elk rifles to be pretty much impervious to the kinds of abuse that go with the sport. At this point, I have a couple of favorites that work for me and a few more that would work just as well if I actually took them hunting. Being a certified loony, I can imagine having just one elk rifle, but right now that ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

Want and need...there's allot of truth in both your statements and applies to much in life as well

Actually thought about using my 1952 300 Savage 99 but wouldn't want to D&T for a scope. Of course the peeps on it could work but I digress.

Aren't you glad I don't think I "need" a 300winmag or larger?

Interesting you mention this. Prior to deer hunting this year, I took my 300 Savage 99 and BAR 30-06 to the range to not just insure they were both sighted in but to decide which one to take on the deer hunt. Honestly tried to approach the bench with no pre-conceived notions...at least the best I could. Both were sighted in but I intentionally spent additional time just shooting several rounds through each of them. For whatever reason(s), I felt more confident with the 300 Savage. Hence, the rifle that went north with me last week.

I can make the decision a bit easier for you. Do want to sell the Savage 99? I've always NEEDED one of those.

My Tikka .270 was a pleasure to pack in the mountains this year. I mainly carried my 35 Whelen, but when the weather turned south I grabbed the Tikka. I'm in decent shape, but the Tikka was more pleasent to carry than the 700. The Tikka is light, has a great trigger, and is accurate too.

Dude. It's easy, don't overthink it.



In a pinch, you can really turn the flame on with one of these little rifles. I prefer the 99F lightweights with 22" barrels.

This ^^^^

The recommendations crack me up. Not because I disagree but because the "West" covers a lot of ground!

I have several rifles that are ideal for elk hunting in the west, they are not all the same.

Depending on where you are at you may find a short barreled quick pointing rifle is ideal. You may also find a long range stable platform is ideal.

My two most used are a Ruger m77 in .338WM with a 3x9 Leupold and a Rem Model 600 in .308 with a 2.5x scope. One is very light easy to carry and quick to point, the other is quite accurate and easy to shoot at better distances. I also have a .300WM but it hasn't been used as much. It's great for open areas but not my cup of tea where it's thick at all.

Between weight, accuracy, and chambering the only thing you could improve on much is weight.

That being said there isn't much left to think about there. The rifle itself will work fine.

Elk country is highly varied. Usually getting closer than 250 is possible but not necessarily. Either way, 250 isn't a long shot at all. Practice a bunch at 300 and you'll find it to be fairly easy if you can get a good rest. Most elk hunters I know sight in at 200.

Seriously.....Do you know how many elk are taken each year with bows, and muzzleloaders with open sights?

If your outfitter can't get you closer than 250yds. I'd look for a new one.

Thanks for the offer Mauser_Hunter but I'm going to hang onto the Savage. My wife looks at the small stash of firearms and asks why I NEED that many. Can't say I have a solid answer If she would just substitute the word WANT into that sentence, then I could talk for hours!

I found out a long time ago that I didn't need another wife. Just me and the dog, and he lets me buy as many guns as I want.

You don't want to get teh wife involved in the gun procurement program, she'll mess it up with logic.

+1

If you like the rifle, keep it. If 2 pounds in a rifle is the difference between getting up the mountain or not then there may be other issues to resolve. I hunt everything with an old M70 30-06. It's a heavy bugger weighing in over 9 lbs but with a decent sling or better yet a pack with a built in scabbard it's no problem. Then when you get ready to shoot, the extra weight is a plus.

Nailed rather nicely.......what they said

Yes, keep it simple.

Winchester Model 70 Classic.

For a dedicated Elk rifle .338 Win Mag With 200gr-225gt BT/AB

For a GP rifle that also kills elk nicely, as above but in .300 WSM or 30.06 with 180gr NBT.

Reliable 3-9 or 4.5-14.

I normally hunt elk with a muzzleloader but if I was using a scoped bolt action rifle and my outfitter got me within 250 yards of a nice bull, I'd shoot it. But before that, I'd become proficient with the rifle and utilize it to its full capabilities.

If I was the type to use an outfitter. I would too.

Ive seen a whole lot of different rifles used in our elk hunting club over the last 45 years and theres been fads come and go,in what was considered the ideal elk rifle type and caliber,the 300 mags and 7mm mags were hot in the 70s the 338 win and 35 whelen still have guys who believe they are the best choices,
the fact is that your 30/06 will do the job just fine! especially if YOUR familiar with how to use it and use good ammunition, and the BAR is a bit heavy but its certainly a good accurate and dependable choice that Id have no issue using.
IVE LOADED AND USED THIS FOR DECADES
30/06............200grn speer....215 fed primer......48-49 grains win 760
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000212211

Id suggest forgetting about changing rifles and concentrate on rather extensive practice shooting from field position's, learning to use a sling and bi-pod and use of a good 180-200 grain bullet.
what your armed with will have far less effect on your results that how good you are at using it, knowing your games anatomy and how effective you are at finding and getting well into range of a decent elk, and believe me when I say on most hunts its that finding and getting into range thats difficult, not killing an elk, especially with a 30/06, its just not that difficult once your in reasonable close, and with a 30/06 , a good bi-pod and sling even 350 yards or more is do-able

I've owned two BAR's. Both rifles the bolt got sluggish when then temps were in the teens and below. Also if you carry with an empty chamber, its going to make a bit more noise than a bolt when you load one in the tube. You can get around the first problem by using a different lube. As the temps where I used to hunt were usually in the 30's and 40's this wasn't much of a problem, once or twice a year. But say a 4th season hunt it can be a factor. As for the empty chamber, there is no way to do it quietly and be certain that the rifle will go off when you hit the trigger. At least not the two BAR's I had.

you bring up a valid point if you use some lubes and don,t winterize the semi-auto action, but in 45 years I can,t think of a single time I heard of a properly cleaned and lubed BAR having issues.
I can see where it might happen, but I can tell you,
the dry graphite based lubes and a good intensive solvent cleaning then limited application of dry graphite based lube helps.
thats what I used on my 338 bar and 270 BAR, in Colorado and it seemed to work out well.

A synthetic oil should do well.

Clean all lubes of, then lube with Mobil Synthetic, Zero to Minus 20. A person will never have a problem with temps using it.

I don't consider the BAR all that heavy. What was heavy was Browning 1886 reproduction that weighed 13 lbs loaded and a M1 Garand that tipped the scales over 10 lbs.
Even the old TC Hawkins and Senecas muzzle loaders in 50 cal were heavier than the BAR

I was going to buy a BAR 7mm mag from my gunsmith, but he sold it before i could get to it. I had asked him to weight it, and it said it was 8 lbs without a scope. It's no lightweight.

One of my nephews uses a BAR in 30.06 with 180gr NBT.

The only problems he has are the result of insufficient practice.

Never used one myself. And that fact alone would keep me from advising others on when they need to get a new one.

Can you imagine me hiring an outfitter, and showing up with a flintlock?

He'd probably hand me my money back.

Funny!

Nahhhh. You should try it

I think, the instant you choose anything other than a 30/06 for elk hunting,you have already "over thought" your elk rifle.

Sez he with his Simillion 7mm Mashburn......

I dunno, but, here in most of BC, the only legal Elk one can shoot in most, not all, areas and seasons, are a minimum of 6pts. to at least one side.

These bulls are wary, live in some of the most densely forested, rugged, steep and usually "trackless" country in North America and the season is in warm to hot weather.

To me and many far more accomplished Elk hunters than I am or would ever probably be, this has come to mean using a .338WM with CEx. 225-250 gr. loads. NO, it is NOT absolutely necessary, but, this hits harder and makes bigger holes than any .30-06 load I know of and tends to put these very tough animals down faster, from what I have seen.

One of the most successful hunters here that I know, uses a customized tang safety Ruger .338, one of a pair that I had built circa mid-1980s. He is a wealthy contractor, 6+ ft., 200+ lb. former "pro" hockey player, superbly fit and hunts his butt off every year. He has shot several HUGE bulls with this rifle in the very tough Kootenays, where some of the finest Elking anywhere is found, IF, you know the country and are as fit as the average NHL player and he is also my eldest cousin's eldest son.

He started with a Winny 670-.30-06, then, after he and my youngest brother got a huge bull and had a fracas with a Grizzly, decided to go with the .338 and has never looked back in 30+ years of avid hunting. Maybe, he "overthinks" it and so do I, but, after almost 46 years with the .338WM, I "think" that we "thunk" right!!!

Kutenay, I think you smacked it way out of the park!!

Am I Overthinking My Elk Rifle?

Yep

If you want another rifle - Get one!

If you want to Elk hunt - Go kill one with that 06 BAR!
Then you can judge for yourself whether you want to continue hunting with it or replace it.

kutenay having killed some bull elk that soaked up solid hits,and behaved like they were love tapped,I can understand how guys come to use 338's and similar. Never been there but can't imagine anything better for your thickly forested elk country,if I wasn't in fact tempted to bring my 37H&H.

At times I thought nothing is really "enough".....you won't catch me dumping on folks who use mediums on big bulls.When I have carried a 338 the elk did not cooperate but I have seen it used on them, along with the 340 and they are good gear.

The Mashburn is just another in a procession of elk rifles.

I think the 30/06 represents the reasonable middle ground for them...and a guy is never far off base with it.

I am a huge BAR fan, however I wouldn't take it elk hunting. Not at all out of reliability concerns, proper care can ensure that. It is the weight. When I quit hunting out of shooting houses and started hunting more on my feet, the weight of the BAR I owned was just more than I cared for, that and the huge scope I had on it for long bean field shooting just didn't match up with how I was now hunting.

For a trip out west I would suggest a BLR in a short action caliber or a 99 D&T either with a decent 2-7 or 3-9 scope, those are great lever action choices.

Otherwise there are many many good bolt action rifles out there, take your pick of what you like, what fits you well, and what doesn't weigh a ton. Same optic suggestions as above.

For me its a long action M70 or Ruger MkII in boring old 30-06, 270 and so on. I have a VX3 3.5-10 with CDS dials on my M70. With a simple 180gr Partiton load my dial works out to 650 yards, way way further than I am good to right now. Working on that and dropping a few lbs are my goal in-between now and elk season.

to your original question, yep you're over-thinking it.

the 30-06 is more than adequate to take elk. I've killed em DRT with a 25-06 over 300 yards. bullet placement is everything.

now if you're thinking it's too heavy, then it sounds like a good excuse to get something else. I've always liked the Ruger M77 line.

This represents a great deal of common sense. I will add the .270Win, .280Rem, and .308Win., that also fit the sentiment.
However, if a hunter wants to deviate upward into the 300's and .338WM's, I'm all for it if they can handle the cartridge.
And that, is the stumbling block many never admit too. When the extra power cannot be utilized, the chances of a long fruitless track become more probable and therefore counter productive. Too many times ego gets in the way of reality.

If given the choice, a hunter is better off with the 30-06 class of cartridges they have mastered. They would be better served then to upgrade some aspect of their equipment which would make them more productive, efficient and even safer.

Well, that certainly makes sense and I much prefer a good .270Win., .30-06 and, especially the superb .280Rem. WITH my handloads, for a LOT of the "general" hunting available here in BC.

I have all of these, have owned scores of other rifles, mostly P-64-70s so chambered and prefer to load/use "medium-heavy" NPs in all of them, as in my two remaining .308Winnys.

Upgrades of equipment, well, BOOTS, PACK, BINO, FIRST and FITNESS are THE real issues with hunting big Elk and one can NEVER be "too" fit.

When, I go home to the Kootenays, Elk tag in hand, I keep encountering many "hunters", some are smokers, sucking bag a "soda" midday is commonplace and ATVs are everywhere.....some of the 30-somethings are in worse shape than I am at 67 and, guess what, they don't seem to kill very much......

I'm a bolt action guy through and through. Having said that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your set up. If you want a reason to justify buying another gun or a different gun, your upcoming elk hunt is about as good of a reason as any of which I can think. As for weight of your set up, if that is your biggest concern, if you are like anybody else, lose two pounds of your own weight, and you will be at the same point of a two pound lighter rifle and $600 to a $1,000 richer to spend on other hunting toys.

Or, you can buy my stainless Winchester Model 70 300 Win Mag for $600 plus shipping. Hey, I had to offer.

Recruit,

Yes, in my opinion you are over thinking your elk rifle. The 06 will be fine with decent bullets. As far as the weight of your BAR, well I think you will hate carrying it in hand. But put a good carry strap on it and throw her on you shoulder and you will be fine. Elk hunting normally means a little walking, understated, and frankly the weight of your rifle is of little concern. As kutenay mentioned above...Get in GOOD SHAPE...a good pack is going to be needed. My advice is get it as soon as possible, load it up with about 40 pounds and start walking at home. Then increase it to 60# and walk as fast as you can for an hour. And keep increasing the weight and time you walk. That should get you ready for all day hikes up in the mountains.

The rifle is a very small part of elk hunting. Spend your money on other good gear. Just to let you know I chase elk with an over 10# rifle, that ten pounds doesn't bother me at the mid 50's mark in my life.

Good post wild bill 375. I'm in agreement with what everyone is saying. A lot of good advice here. I'll just leave it at that.

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I do a little backpacking and adventure racing so am in relatively decent shape. Not great though so will be putting the hammer down this winter to get in excellent shape. Also have two good pair of boots and pack. Binos will be the final upgrade...famous last words.

In the spirit of overthinking the rifle, I traded the BAR on a Ruger M77 30-06 yesterday. It's a tad lighter and the cold weather concerns with a semi-auto mentioned gave me enough excuse. Sounds like both concerns could be rectified but must admit part of the equation was just wanting a another rifle. Figure I have plenty of time now to practice with it and therefore no excuse for making a bad shot when the time comes!

Excellent choice. "Binos will be the final upgrade...famous last words." Personally a better spotting scope has saved me many miles of walking in the hills. I use a good pair of bino's for quick viewing but use the spotter to see if it's a bull I want to walk way over there to kill. Just a thought.

yup and sell the boat anchor or leave it at home

There's always a trade off. You lost a little weight from the BAR, and gained quite a few lbs of recoil.

Copy that. Felt recoil was my primary concern in stepping away from the semi-auto. Figure practice, practice and more practice is where it's at though to adapt to the extra thump

That and adding a softer recoil pad. The existing one is quite stiff.

That is among the BEST choices that you could have made, I suggest that you have the trigger "tuned" by a REAL "pro" smith, the rifle bedded in epoxy and fully-bedded works better for me than partially. I further suggest that you get two identical scopes, 4x Leupolds in fitted Ruger rings are just fine and then develop a sound, 2700+ load with the 180 NP.

Get a good sling, practice from FIELD positions and sight 2" high at 100, ON at 200, 2 FEET low at 400...works for me, very well.

Now, I spent many years where the daily use of optics was a major aspect of my wilderness employment. I must disagree with the previous gentleman, get a GOOD spotter, but, A SUPERB bino, NOT the reverse.

You SHOULD be using your bino MUCH more, every day, than your spotter and a decent Bushnell or Leupold spotter WILL work just fine. However, Leica, Zeiss and Swaro binos, ARE worth the hideous prices and this is from 46 years of owning these, Leica and Zeiss, at the moment and just giving up anything lesser....which, is everything else.

If, you are a novice with a bino, get a 7x or an 8x and a spotter, 20-25x for Elk is enough. The recent fascination with 10x and higher binos is, IMO, NOT condusive to the long, grinding hours of use that makes them pay off in game found by glassing.

The single best BC guide I have ever known used Alpen 8x and he was/is a master mountain man who has found more game than most will ever even think about.

JMHO, but, think over what I have said.

Think you hit it out of the park with your rifle choice! Best of luck this coming season.

Someone else touched on this and I will add to it. Get yourself a good bipod- Harris or equal- and learn to deploy it and use it quickly.
I don't care how good of shape you are in, when climbing mountains at high elevations you are going to be huffing and puffing at the exact moment the biggest elk you ever saw (or any other legal elk) steps out. Nobody I know can shoot accurately off hand at any decent distance when tired and huffing and puffing, and a good rest isn't always available. A bipod will fold into place in an instant and you can be as steady as a shooting bench if you've practiced using one. It will increase your range substantially and adds almost no weight to your rifle.

As far as rifles, I've seen all of the above rifles used on elk and they work, but after many years elk hunting and seeing well hit elk run into the bottom of huge canyons before expiring, I wanted something that put elk down right now. I've been using my trusty .338 WM for many years now and it does make a difference when and elk is hit by that 225 grain Partition or Aframe. They usually just flop over and expire without too much ado.

If you can train yourself to handle the recoil, the 300 and 338 WM's have their places and IMHO, work equal to their increase in horsepower. In the last 4 years I've shot 4 elk and none of them made it more than 50 yards. These were shots from 125 yards to 600 yards and somewhere in between and all shot through the lungs and/or heart. I like to have the extra horsepower when reaching way out there.

Besides, some of us LIKE to overthink our elk rifles.......

Another thing I keep seeing- losing weight is the equal to a lighter rifle. Nonsense! Losing weight is a goal with it's own rewards, but you carry your rifle with your arms. Carrying a heavy rifle all day long will quickly wear out your arms when humping mountains.( a slung rifle gathers no elk) The less weight your arms have to deal with, the more ready you will be for the shot when it comes if your main shooting components- your arms- feel up to holding the rifle steady. (see bipod comments above)

Bob

Yup! Losing weight off a fat ass is not the same as carrying a heavy gun.

Excellent choice in rifles right there. Now we want to hear more about it. Is it blued/wood or stainless with a boat paddle stock, newer Hawkeye or MKII, or older yet a tang safety model?? I love my Rugers and my 338 M77 MKII is my primary elk rifle. We can never "overthink" our elk rifles, especially in the off season

Thanks very much kutenay. I appreciate your insights. A few questions:

1) Why two scopes? Haven't made up my mind on 2x7, 3x9, 4x or 6x. I have a relative who may be willing to part with a Bushnell Elite 4200 3x9.

2) Also have been reading up on accurizing. Before doing anything, I'll shoot some factory rounds and hope for a tack driver. However, I'm also hearing some of the older 77's have inconsistent throats...some deeper than others. Should an OAL check be done? I do reload. The rifle is 1989 vintage which was apparently about the time Ruger started making their own barrels and as a result tightening up tolerances.

3) Those are some high-end names you mention for binos. No luck with Leupolds or Nikons? 8X is what I have in mind.

Thanks Wild Bill. Hadn't considered a spotter scope but will have to check them out.

I don't think you need a spotting scope for elk hunting. Good binos will do you an dafter lugging a spotting scope around a day or two, you will leave it in camp the rest of the hunt.

You just trimmed 2 lbs or so off your rifle, why do you want to add 2-3 lbs for a spotting scope?

You can only get so much off your ass to make up for it.

Lots of folks with lots of good advice here. Thought I better chime in. I am a long time deer hunter started in Appalachia and moved west in 1982, feeling like I have now gained enuff elk experience and success to add something useful. first, what fun would it be if we didn't do a little overthinking. I am not a semi auto fan, but that BAR would surely kill elk. I shoot a ruger no 1 300 win mag and it has been very effective, as was my #1 270 before I moved up in caliber 10 yrs ago. 2 of my main elk hunting buddies use tang safety 77s in 30-06. They are deadly. I might use a 165 gr monometal or bonded bullet, which equals a 300m wm 180 cup and core of 20 yrs ago, but that is splitting hairs- very flat to 400 yds, though. Spotter depends on where you are hunting, I sometimes wish I had one but don't carry one on my long foot hunts. I typically hunt places where it is a mix of spotting at long distance, sometimes then dropping in on bulls spotted a long way off, which IMHO is one of the most exciting kinds of hunting there is, to hunting semi-open country, to working the timber. (My #1, despite a 24" bbl is very short and handy and great for this combo,both a flat shooting gun for LR and quick in the dark stuff, not that I mean to recommend it)ONE THING, and I see that many here disagree, is that, when I shift into timber, I really really insist on a low bottom end on my variable scope. I use a leupy 1.75-6. I see a difference in 1.75 v.s 3, and don't want a fixed 6. But again that is just when sneaking through the dark- and I have now wacked a few elk this way and the low power is enuff faster and brighter for me to make a difference. Just my opinion.I'd be happy with a fixed 6 elsewhere. Elk are also BIG, and I feel that 6x or maybe 8 is plenty on the top endfor as far I am confiednt in shooting, say to 400 yds, maybe 5 (I have shot 1 deer over 400 in all gthe years, no elk over 300). for binos, I have both 8x30s and 10x40s and agree with getting the best you can- but there are some good values and good glass on some higher end Japanese optics these days. Oh...and the first one might be intimidating, but only when after killing many deer, you walk up to that horse sized critter on the ground and start to try and roll it over and gut it... Good hunting to you!

Well here is what all the hubbub lead to:



Its 1989 vintage so am not sure if Ruger made the barrel or Wilson did. Isn't this right about the time Ruger made the change? Also, anyone know if the laminate stock is stock or aftermarket? The butt pad is not exactly soft

Fifty yars in the field have taught me elk are tough kritters. Keep the scope and get another BAR in 300 magnum w/180 gr. or 338 magnum with 210 Barnes TripleShock bullets. My $.02.

If there is an elk in the world that can't be killed by one well placed shot from an .06 with a 180gr bullet, I have yet to encounter one.

No doubt it's a better looking gun than your old BAR.

How were elk killed prior to magzappers?

Just as easy as they are today. Part of the problem today is hunters want to knock an elk off its feet, or it's not enough gun.

Either that, or they want to take very long shots. Not sure why, but they do.

That's good to hear.

I have a stash of Barnes 168gr TTSX to load up. Sound like good elk medicine? In good conscience, I already overthought this one earlier in the year.

More than enough.

Scopes break, ALL makes and this almost ALWAYS happens when you are on a costly hunt of the type that you can only go on a few times in your life. I have owned and do own scopes, binos and spotters from ALL the "name" makers plus others from "Wollensak", Weaver 330, "Bear Cub", Lyman, and on and on....including the top $$$$$ Zeiss, etc.

Generally, I prefer two, identical low-end variables, or a fixed 4x for 90% of my hunting and I can pretty much buy any scope I consider "best". I DO NOT, as do some of my buddies, use the Zeiss, Leica, S&B and Swaro "Euro" types as they are just TOO heavy for typical azz-busting Elk hunting.

My actual favourite Elk scope is the Leupy VX3-1.75x6 Matte, HEAVY DUPLEX and I have never found anything that works better in western/northern Canadian big game hunting. So, two of these, sighted, rings as mentioned and you are "GTG".

Binos, these and your footwear and your pack are THE repeat THE items that will have the greatest actual impact on your Elk hunting and there is NO REAL reason to NOT buy Zeiss Victory HT-8x40s. I see kids all the time, several hundred dollars of fancy, supposedly "weather-proof", signature camo, stretchy and SO trendy and "kewl" clothing on their bods and a crappy bino around their necks.

I don't care WHAT anyone buys/uses, but, I firmly believe that a fine bino and learning to USE it, will result in finding more game than any other single aspect of Elk hunting. YMMV, whatever.

+1..

Very nice tanger right there. looks like a factory laminate. I had one exactly like it and it was an excellent rifle. I culled it and many more back in the mid 90's after reading some very bad advice from Col. Craig Boddington. Live and learn..Your rifle will make an awesome "do all rifle".

Thanks Mauser. Hopefully, the elk won't see the little blue tip coming either

Paint the tip camo,problem solved.

Thanks Kutenay. It's apparent this isn't your first rodeo.

Man do I wish I could swing some of the equipment mentioned. Truth is, I just can't. To put into perspective, if my lead on a Bushnell 4200 doesn't work out, I'm wondering if going with a Leupold VXI is worth the extra few bucks more than a Redfield Revolution. Binos will likely have to be in the $200 range. That's just my reality.

I do have a newer pair Danners and Irish Setters for boots. This is one area I want duplication.

No more camo for me however. As a side note, I often wonder why I even put it on since a bright orange vest has to be put over it

Leupold will be lighter than the Redfield, and have better glass.

That's if you meant the VX-1, and not the VX-I

Recoil will be plenty managable. Depending on the real estate being hunted bino's and spotting scopes can be the difference. Sometimes (area) good quality 8-10x bino's are perfect and the spotter is just weight. Where I am hunting close to home now long shots and spot & stalk don't exist. It's just way to thick to hunt like this.

Being well practiced, in shape, and ready to hunt will make the biggest difference in enjoyment. Consider your clothing & equipment, be in shape, have a reliable gun, & good knife.

Thats a lot of our reality - don't have the jing to buy top end. When the choice boils down to buying top end equipment and not hunting or buying decent equipment and going hunting the choice is easy.

Kute is spot on with boots, packs, and binos in general. A few suggestions for the budget minded:

Scope: Leupy VX-2 3x9x40. Buy one on fleabay for a couple more bucks than a new VX-1. IMHO the VX-2 is a great scope value

Binos: I'd look strong at the Minox. Doug at Cameraland has great prices. Buy a pair of open box specials. You can get a decent pair for $500 if you are patient. I have 3 pairs of Minox and have sold 6-8 more for Doug. Dad has Leica's and Zeiss. I've had all three in different light conditions using a acuity chart and in natural settings from woods to field. The top end glass is definitely better but not 3-4x cost better. I don't believe having the Minox vs Zeiss/Leica has ever cost me a game animal. The other bonus is that I'm not worried about breaking, losing, or having someone steal them.

Boots: sounds like you have that covered - as long as the Danners are American made version. I'm not a fan of the imported Danners. Bought my first pair of Irish Setters this year. So far so good but have only worn them a dozen times. Time will tell - I'm hard on boots.

Buy the best you can but most importantly go hunting.

YES!

Recruit,

Over time you will find yourself spending a lot of money on this elk hunting gear stuff. I to am forced to hunt on a budget, especially when you drop decent money just on tags to hunt as a non-resident hunter. Getting there costs, staying there costs, & everything you need to hunt there costs!

Buy smart, but don't think you'll have much fun if you try to do it as a minimalist. You can do it, but it isn't much fun. Been there done that. Montana can be COLD, especially if the wind blows.

Good pack boots during late October/November will be well worth the money you spend, warm clothing that is fairly light in weight w/warm long johns. Wool is the way I fly. Gaiters would be nice high up in the deeper snow. A good pack to day hunt with and assist in carrying meat out is a must or you can add trips to and from truck. Two good knives & survival equipment & some rope a must. Then everything you will need if you are camping out. That's pretty much minimalist right there.

If you add all this up as far as money you'll spend, you could hunt Africa and kill more animals. It's expensive so do your best and have fun.

Gear will last a long time if you take care of it, and you don't buy junk.

The first year you buy everything hurts the worst.

Then it's just those pesky tag fees from then on.

Thanks bwinters. Your last comment is my favorite.

Like your advice on a VX-2 too also. I buy used quite a bit if in very good to excellent shape.

Wish the boots were U.S. made but just checked and they're not. Will see how it goes...just glad to have two pair.

Yep, meant the "one" not the "eye". Leupold sure didn't pick the easiest naming convention A used VX-2 is appealling too.

Thanks BSA. Good to hear you've had postive experiences with the M77.

And all along, I've liked reading Craig Boddington's stuff. Oh well, such is life

Now that's just plain good advice right there!

Thanks for the laugh

Thanks Wild Bill. Fortunately, I've amassed a collection of quality outdoor clothing over the last few years. I'm all about layers that can be added or shed as needed and wool is part of that equation here in Michigan too.

Yea those darned non-resident fees...ouch! But to me, it will be worth every penny as I've never experienced an out west elk hunt. You guys that do it on a regular basis don't know how good you've got it...or maybe you do. The only time I've seen elk, antelope or mule deer is on TV...and it just ain't the same. My brother lived in Kalispell for a few years and I was able to fly out and spend a week with him back in 2000. We spent 3 days canoeing the upper Missouri, fished and camped on the Blackfeet reservation anad also the Middle Fork?, hiked in Glacier, Bison range, etc. and while the pictures I brought home were nice, they just didn't do justice to seeing it first hand. I know the experience will be the same see elk, antelope and mule deer first hand.

Thanks Big Nate. I appreciate especially your last two sentences

You're welcome.

Apropos, of costly gear, I DO have it, a LOT of it and I grew up in brutal poverty, have NEVER been "wealthy" and did not/will n ever inherit dime one.

HOW, very simple, I WANTED IT enough to WORK two jobs, I would take the most unwanted and toughest solo sites in my forestry employment and DO IT RIGHT and I learned HOW to buy the good stuff FIRST and look after it.

I was living in a mountain tent, in the snow near my hometown, unemployed and cutting wood,etc, for food money when I bought my current Zeiss bino in 1975 on "layaway". I had NEVER met the store owner and he asked his son if I was "OK" and the reply was yes, he is the most honest guy I know...I busted my azz with O/T in a local planermill to pay on time, with 365 surgical sutures in my right leg...so, I KNOW all about "hard times" and HOW to get the BEST gear, what little you NEED, not merely want, even when it LOOKS like you can't.....

You will NEVER regret buying a Zeiss bino and a really GOOD pack to hunt with, almost anything else, even your riflescope, can be of "GOOD" not absolutely BEST, quality and a 4x Leupy is a FINE choice for Elk, especially on an '06.

Whatever, I am NOT trying to argue or to denigrate the choices of others, here. For the BEST advice on hunting optics I know of, PM John Barsness, probably among the top 5 or 6 gun writers I have read in almost 60 years and the best working today, no question. He KNOWS his stuff and is also not some egomaniacal azzhole who will fill your head with bullsh!t.....

HTH.

Kutenay,

I apologize if I came across feeling denigrated by you with my words. I do not at all feel that way and was certainly not my intent to express in that matter. I appreciate you sharing your background. It's apparent you've worked hard for what you have as have I.

Perhaps the way I should have worded it was that hunting is a medium priority for me...or something like that. My personal downfall is having TOO many hobbies. My wife reminds me of this often . I enjoy hunting, woodworking, backpacking, adventure racing, radio-control cars and airplanes and I absoulutely love riding dirt bikes. I currently have 4 dirt bikes and have torn down and am in the process of rebuilding two of them. Couple that with annual trips to West Virginia for "riding adventures" and well...you get the point.

Anyway, what all this means is splitting funds to fuel the hobbies I enjoy. I'm a strong believer in if you want something material bad enough, you can aquire it through hard work. You have done this for your hunting "hobby". I wish I could focus on fewer or even one hobby but I'm entertained by too many things I guess.

At any rate, thank you for your help and insights. I appreciate hearing and learning from those who are truly dedicated to their hobby

Don't own them but read on here that the Leupold Yosemites are suppose to be decent binos for about $130

OK... Now I have more to say! :0
If you can afford 4 bikes, RC cars and planes, as in plural, and woodworking as well as dabble in backpacking & hunting, you can afford to buy exactly what you should.
You Need Swarovski EL's, a Zeiss spotter, and a custom built .338 Edge with a NF for open areas, and a lightweight .338-06 with a nice low power scope for the thick stuff. You should probably also get a custom knife as well!

All kidding aside, you gotten good advice.

13 pages of overthinking your elk rifle.

The most important things I have had for any of my elk hunts is a permit in hand and an airline ticket.....I can figure out the rest but I ain't going anywhere without those.

Yep, I've heard the same.

Yeahhhhh. I'll run this one by the wife

Anyone interested in buying some RC cars and planes?

Ironic, isn't it? I thought the same thing last night

There's wisdom in those words right there

Recruit: There's lots cartridges that work good on elk....the reason there is so much anguish and discussion.

We should give what we use some thought,of course,but concentrate on getting yourself there,shoot something reasonable, use good bullets and shoot straight,and you will be successful.

Bingo!!

I didn't read a single post, including the authors original, but I can say with confidence the answer is "yes" to the original question.

Put your money into good boots and glass. The rest is just fluff.

Dave

I always thought glass was fluff. Still do.

That's silly talk.

Depends on how you hunt. I don't use any, so it's not absolutely necessary.

Underwear aren't necessary either.

Bob is one of them guys that IMO, post useful, accurate info.

Took the M77 on her maiden voyage to the range today. Or perhaps more accurately our maiden voyage. Anyway, shot about 50 rounds and bottom line is...I like! My relative graciously loaned me his Bushnell Elite 4200 3x9. Weather was a sunny 20F with low-medium wind.

Started at 25 to get the scope close, then to 50 and finally to 100. Everything went as expected until at 100 yards. Was shooting way left for some reason. Thought about adjusting windage but could tell something just wasn't right. How could I be right on at 50 and 8-10" left at 100? Looked through the scope again and noticed the cross-hairs were no longer horizontal/vertical. Sure enough a loose scope. Next time I'll be using blue loctite. Tighted it back down, took three shots, adjusted windage a smidge and I'm back in the ball park. Half dozen more shots into a 5" group and yes, it's apparent I have plenty of practice to do

Now the overthinking part. I know part of reason for the large group is me...no question. But the barrel was smokin hot at this point and also wondered about the early barrels on M77's with long throats.

For those than hunt only, do you go to the pains of bedding, trigger work, reloading at the appropriate OAL for your rifle, let the barrel cool, etc? I'm not looking for a competition shooter but at the same time want it accurate enough to consistently hit the boiler room on an elk and not wound it. Again, I have lots of room for improvement. The gun, maybe not so much...or maybe so?

Yes.

Yes x2.

I already covered EXACTLY what you really SHOULD DO in order to obtain what was designed into your rifle. I suggest having this work done, buying a Leupy 4x and having it professionally mounted, THEN, shoot 3 shot groups and LET IT COOL completely between each group.

This, is NOT especially "difficult" and some here may disagree, but, this approach WORKS and will also keep your bore in good shape for the longest possible time.

BTW, did you CLEAN your rifle, thoroughly when you got home?

Thank guys. I consider myself pretty handy so could likely do a few accurizing items myself leaving tougher ones for a gunsmith.

You know Kutenay, I intended to clean the rifle tomorrow as today has been a full day. However, after reading your post, I got off the couch and took care of it this evening. Thanks for the motivation

I couldn't sleep at night if I didn't clean the gun when I was done shooting it.

I know this, because one time I forgot to do it. At 2am my eyes popped open, and I remembered I didn't clean the gun. I got up, cleaned it, and then slept like a baby.

Overkill? Yes, of course, but it's how I am. If you ever buy a gun from me. The bore will sparkle.

Dang Mauser Hunter, you are one dedicated rifleman...waking up in the middle of night and all. That's good to hear though; a lesson many of us, including myself to learn from

I've decided to start some of the accurizing items mentioned. With the holidays upon us, it may take some time to get started...but am planning on moving in that direction with at least 3 items:

1) Determine actual OAL and seat bullets accordingly. I'm already reloading so this should be easy.

2) Free float the barrel. Looks like there is only a small area on the laminate stock near the front of the forearm to contend with. Unless someone advises otherwise, it doesn't look like that big a deal.

3) Glass bed the action..not sure how far forward to bed yet? There is a thread in the Hunting Rifles forum with the same gun so between that and watching a few Youtube videos, the process looks relatively easy and cheap too.

Of course, I'll be overthinking each of these. Hopefully not overkill but want the job done right the first time. This will be my first rodeo through this process. Any words of wisdom?

If there is a pressure point at the front of the forearm, it is probably there for a reason. Many rifles come with a pressure point there to make them shoot better. Best to shoot it first before removing that particular area, you may find it shoots just fine the way it is.

If you are going to glass bed the action, usually the action, recoil lug (rear of lug only), and about 1" of the barrel shank forward of the action that needs bedding if you are going for a free floated barrel.

Seating bullets to depth is pretty easy. I first find a powder charge that gives me the best accuracy with a rough seating depth close to what I need. Then, I usually use a Sharpie marker and mark the bullets. Seat them intentionally a bit long, then try to chamber one. You will see how much the bullet is marked by the riflings. Adjust almost this much and try again. Repeat, adjusting just a small turn of the seating die until the riflings don't mark the black on the bullet. Then I measure with a micrometer and adjust about .005"-.0010" more and shoot a few. This usually is pretty close to the sweet spot, IMHO.

Bob

yup

Yeah, good luck ....Just kidding, here are some pics to help you out:

Bedding is a must:





Bed it tight (don't put anything on the front of the recoil lug on a Ruger 77)....

Leave the speed bump until after you have shot it after you have properly bedded it,or you may end up doing this (OOPS!!!!):

[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/017-2.jpg[/img]

However, sometimes you need to freefloat them. Just make sure you seal up the barrel channel when you are done:
[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/004-46.jpg[/img]

I'd love to show you pics of how all these rifles shoot, but they limit me to just 10 pics per post but here are a couple:

M77 MKII 338 win mag:
[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/Image023-1.jpg[/img]

Tang safety round top M77 270 win:
[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/005-53.jpg[/img]

Pretty easy to make these Rugers shoot, just takes the right amount of tender loving care....Now you have somthing else to "overthink" about

Thanks guys. I'll wait on free-floating then.

Your pics are worth a thousand words BSA! Thank you for posting them. Hopefully my final groups will look half as good as yours.

After seeing the myraid of bedding materials available, I felt overthinking would be inevitable. However, I intentionally limited the search to about 15 minutes and made a decision. How bout them apples!

Devcon 10110 is pretty easy to work with and very strong. Good luck with it sir...

Use Brownell's Acuglass Jel for the bedding. Everything you need is in the kit for $20-$25.

Before you get too involved in finding the optimum seating depth, check the length of your magazine box. Many times that is the deciding factor of COAL. You want the rounds to be .020-.030 shorter than that box length to insure easy loading and feeding when hunting.

The number of bedding choices mirrors that of most things. Lots of choices! Anyway, here's what's in the mail:



I read mostly positive about Brownells Acraglass gel and only a few negative...even though I didn't see negative opinions substantiated with actual evidence. Nonetheless, the only negative I found for Devcon 10110 was cost. Got lucky though and scored for the same cost as Brownells.

Have some Johnsons Wax and Hornady One-Shot laying around too.

A little nervous but anxious to get started too

Thanks for the heads up on this Saddlesore. Will have to check this out.

Just use plenty of release agent where needed, don't get in a hurry, sometimes when its cold out it helps to let those devcon containers sit in hot water. You can use the Johnson's paste wax on the outside of your stock as well and the bedding won't stick to it. PM me if you need any extra help, I have more pics to walk you thru the process..

Will do BSA. Thanks for the guidance

You better shoot an elk after all this.

You ain't kiddin Mauser. 16 pages in and the trip is still more than 10 months away! Wonder if threads are shutoff after say 500 pages?

Overthinking can be a good thing but it's been my downfall sometimes too. Oh well; I really do enjoy the learning curve

I do all my bedding with Devcon Steel. The unsaid benefit of Devcon is that it does not shrink, (or, not enough to worry about) meaning accuracy does not go off after a few years. Some of my rifles were bedded 20 years back and still shoot very well.

Also tried Devcon Aluminium and it was just as good but naturally you get the silver finish where Devcon Steel comes is black.

John

you're not overthinking your rifle.

we're ALL overthinking your rifle.

I'm overthinking mine too... thats what God made the off-season for, it seems.

10-4 on the extra weight shooting. I have a weatherby ultralite in 300 wby mag and one in a remington 700. The remington weighs a couple of pounds more but is more enjoyable on the range. the wby is great to carry but sighting in is a pain. Both have killed elk and deer. I can't tell the difference when shooting an elk or deer between the two.

Today was the day to establish a baseline for the 77 prior to bedding, trigger adjustment and OAL seating/reloads. A few issues sighting in today (had to remount scope and add blue loctite) but eventually zeroed in. Sunny, 20F and no wind.

Shot two 3-shot groups at 100 yards from a lead sled using factory Remington Core-Lokt 150gr. PSP. First group measured 1.19" and the second measured 1.83". Are these groups typical? Seems like getting under 1 MOA won't be an issue...hopefully.

The Devcon arrived and hope to bed later this week. Busy time of year of course...not sure I'll finish before Santa arrives

Bwinters,
I fully agree with your post, it speaks experience and wisdom.
There is also the opposite of over thinking our big game rifles, and that is under thinking.
The ultimate in stupidity I read in "ask the gun writers" go to "mule deters opinion on the .243". What started initially as an OK post with shooting deer with the .243 under controlled conditions, detoriated in infamy and idiocy of long range plinkers using it on elk and recommending the .243 as a good cartridge for elk definitely out to 600 yards shooting 105 vld's, including photos. They even show pics of dead elk killed with their .243 over 700 yards and one just over 900 yards. That is if one believes what they are saying. However I do believe there are naive idiots that want to see how far they can stretch marginal deer calibers such as the .243, just to prove it "can be done". IMO it is criminal to mutilate and maim beautifully big game animals for no other reason as caressing some a....hole's ego.
I admire those long range target shooters for what they can accomplish from the bench.
But please do not practice on big game. They deserve a fast mercifull death. They are not military enemies.

Shrike,

I dont think what you describe is "underthinking the rifle" so much as over-pumping an ego. Such characters (or lack thereof) will nearly always be a classic douchebag, making the hunt more about him than the game he seeks.

The quarry we chase (be it a quail, a coyote, or an elk) deserve a quick and merciful death.

My elk guns are a 358 Win and a 300 WSM. I spend 11 months a year learning/optimizing in an effort to be prepared to deliver that quick death if the opportunity is provided.

shane

So a 90# kid or recoil shy women shouldn't hunt elk until they can shoot some macho mag that many think are needed for elk?

ok, my opinion explanation was poor....

IMO, a 243 used within the limits of its range (fairly short) is fine. the example Shrike cited above was of a fool bragging about 600 yard shots on elk with a .243.

I'm pretty sure neither a 90# kid, a woman, an old man, a young man, or a marine sniper ought to be flinging projectiles from a .243 at elk at that distance.

No macho mag required, unless you want to be able to shoot effectively at longer range. My back wall is 300 yards with the 358. If I were toting a .243, it'd be much, much less.

Did you watch John Burns' video ?

no, I did not watch the video, but watching it wouldnt change my opinion.

I'm of the opinion that too much can happen in the span of 600 yards for shooting at an elk. wind drift.... animal takes a step, lost projectile speed, bullet doesnt perform, sun gets your eyes, sh%t happens.

an expert (aka.... not me) with a great rifle/load combo can make shots like that, and Burns is definately an expert.

I'm just not a fan of wounding game, and at 600 yards... the potential to wound (and only wound) game is pretty good, so I'd discourage it, as I am here.

Some might be okay with wounding game. Not me. I've wounded game before and it sickens me to think back on it, but think back on it... I do.

Burns didn't shoot it, his client did. I don't think she was any kind of an expert. But to be honest with you I wouldn't shoot that far with any caliber/cartridge simply cause I don't practice at that distance.
As far wounding game, plenty of game is wounded on the opposite end of the spectrum... using more gun than they can handle.
I think with the premium bullets available plenty of elk have been cleanly killed with the 243.

agreed on all that.

I wonder how many "long range hunting videos" get made, then deleted because they show an animal walking off in a hurry bleeding from a shot to the gut or arse?

my frustration with a thread like that one is it more or less encourages would be elk hunters to use a cartridge that most would consider marginal.

Burns is more or less a professional on making long shots. I get that. I'm not, and most of the folks on this forum arent either.

Reading that thread might make the average reader think the .243 is the ideal round to use for charging pachyderms in Africa "all hail the .243".

dont get me wrong, its a great round. Most of my family uses .243's on Tx whitetails.

Its just not what I'd encourage them to take an animal that is roughly 6x the size of the whitetails we have here in Tx.

I wonder how many have been wounded that you never hear about?

I hate it when someone clumps most of us together. You don't know what "most" of us are capable of. I get that you can't shoot long distance, but don't be saying most of us can't either. That's just bs...

I wouldn't consider it an ideal elk cartridge either.
As much as I like my 243 for deer if I was going to hunt elk I'd go a little bigger.
But you hear more and more of folks from all kinds of skill levels killing elk with a 243.

I've never shot past 200yds. so I don't know what I'd shoot like at 600yds but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once

my apologies to anyone whom I might have offended, by wrongly stating that you cant make consistent kill shots on elk at 600+ yards with a .243

Can you "consistently" do it with any other cartridge??

I've done some practice at 400 yards, once, and I was very surprised at how much my groups opened up between 300-400 yards. Next time, I'll try to stay in a Holiday Inn Express the night before.

nope, and point well taken!

Dam, the natives are restless.

jswbga, I would agree with you that the 243 is not an elk rifle at 600 YDS in MOST people's hands, along with the 338, 300's etc.

curiosity (and perhaps, a bit of bitterness) got the best of me, so I used Hornadys Ballistics calculator using the following assumptions:

.243 cal
105 Berger with BC of 0.532
and a 3050fps launch velocity.
200 yard zero (probably not correct in Burns instance, but I had to assume something...)

all you need to hit right at 600 yards is no wind, and a 60" holdover. Just 5 feet worth.

At 900 yards, it's a 189" holdover. A mere 15.75 feet....

I'm not trying to bash the .243 so much in this instance, as I am the willingness to wound but never find the animal (or more likely.... a tree/rock several feet away...).

Not quite sure if youre asking a question or making a statement. But Burns builds those rifles for the task at hand, theyre not your off the rack rifle. Theres no "hold over" ya lazer the yardage then turn the dail on the scope to the yardage.
Its specialized equipment so to speak, for me anyway.

Like I said it wouldn't matter what caliber or cartridge I was shooting,i wouldnt take a 600yd shot im just not confident shooting at that distance.

Evidently elk can be killed at 680+ yds., Johns video proves that, at least to me.

I think I just got called a "naive idiot". I guess if the shoe fits and what not.



While we disagree on some points I do respect how you have stated your thoughts in this thread. Makes for interesting and thought provoking discussions.

John,

How do you decide what is "too far"? (here I'm being genuine, not a smart arse)

I know there is a ton of math involved in accounting for the elevation, wind, etc.

Is there a multi-nomial equation where you input wind speed, angle, elevation and distance? (and whatever other factors I'm not even aware of...)?

I assume you (or Berger...) have done some terminal ballistic testing to see what is the minimum impact velocity for these bullets.

Or is it a flat personal judgement call?

The Partitions I fling out of my BLR drop below 1800 fps at around 300 yards. That, plus my inability to hit reliably beyond that distance, make 300 yards my "back wall" with that gun.

I have a prairie dog gun that I can hit farther out (savage BVSS in 25-06). Since terminal ballistics aren't a big concern on a 3" thick prairie dog, I'm a bit more brave when using it.... I just don't use it on elk (mostly because I'd need a dedicated mule to carry the darned thing, at ~12# or so....)

I'm curious how you set your own back wall for a particular gun/load?

I watched your videos, and it sure looks like getting closer would be a helluva challenge with nil ground cover, so I understand the temptation to shoot from neighboring zip codes....

shane

For what it's worth, the 243 AI shooting a 105 AMAX or Berger at 3100 FPS matches almost exactly the 7mm Mag with a 162 AMAX at 3000 FPS for flight path out to 700, and the differnece at 1000 is still minute of elk.

I have both, the 243 kicks less and everything dies. The 7 Mag is for when the future MRS is using the 243 and I don't want to rethink drop tables.

I think it's funny that some people are telling John what not to shoot with a rifle that probably has 100 kills on it when the tellers haven't even tried the round for the purpose stated.

I never get to hunt as much as I like, and admit to asking a lot of dumb questions, and the occasional ill-conceived observation.

But I pretty much take what John Burns, John Barsness and Boxer state on faith, and it has panned out tremendously for me.

Shane,

�Too far� is a personal judgment call based on prior shooting experience and predicted impact velocity.

Prior shooting in similar conditions (range, wind, type of rest, time for shot, ect) gives a basis to determine if a given shot is within the shooter�s ability.

Ballistic programs or apps can determine the impact velocity at distance. I try to keep the impact velocity above 1800fps with the VLD bullets. I didn�t follow that advise this year and very narrowly avoided a bad situation on my deer. Lesson learned.

I agree with Mr Burns. It's a personal decision that's based on assessment of as particular situation and experience. In some instances, 100 yards has been too far for me and at other times anything over 600 yards is not even considered. In terms of my hunting clients, however, anything over 400 yards is definitely out of the question. But, that's based on policy, rather than someone's experience level.

Been gone for a while but the bedding on the 77 is done. I want to publicly thank bsahunter1917 for helping me through the process. The process can be somewhat nerve-racking the first time through but BSA was able to minimize that for me. Thanks again for all your help! . Our camera is broken but will have some pics of the final product up soon. I'll have to get to the range again for some follow-up shooting and post pics of before/after groups as well.

My next mission is cartridge work. Specifically, I measured 3.66" using Hornady's OAL gauge/comparator. Setting the bullet back 0.02" off the lands would put OAL at 3.64"

The magazine is unfortunately WAY less than this It is what it is though so guess the key will be to maintain a consistent OAL, even if way short of optimum while experimenting with various loads. Any advice?

Wouldn't worry too much about COAL and relationship between lands and grooves - mainly because you have no choice at this point. Ideally, seating bullets close to or touching L&G is the place to start but I've had more than 1 rifle that shot with considerable jump to the L&G. Don't be afraid to try what seems like a radical jump - 0.120. Just keep the seated depth behind the bullet ogive and see what works.

Two things you can do. You can try a single powder, start with a COAL that gives me 0.005" clearance in the mag box, then start seating the bullet deeper by 0.020 to 0.030 until your arrive at nirvana. The other option is to seat bullets with a bit of mag box clearance and try different powders at a constant COAL. I've done both. The odds are you'll find something that works. I'd also start with known powder/bullet combinations. I think you bought a 30-06. For elk, I'd start with a 180 bullet of your choice and H/IMR4350 work up to 58.0 grains or 2800 ft/sec whichever comes first. I know that load works with Partitions. Might also try Ramshot Hunter and Re 17 under 180's. I hear they might also work

Thanks bwinters. This sounds like a great approach.

I'd planned on loading up 165gr Barnes TTSX bullets with IMR 4064 instead of 180gr and H/IMR4350. Either way though, I'll work them up into the neighborhood of 2800fps or perhaps slightly more depending on which load provides better accuracy.

Thanks again

Sage advice indeed!

Just bought a new rifle, Tikka Super light 5.8 lbs stainless fluted.
It has been great reading the comments because I choose the 30 06
before i even read this.

I'm going to try some 180 Accubonds with IMR 4350 behind it and see
if I can get over 2800 accurately.

My glass will probably be a VXII 3x9, with some Talley 1 piece mounts.
To my best calculations it should come together at about 6 5/8 lbs.

I'm sorry, I can't help you, I've been over thinking my elk rifle for 20 years! If I had stuck with the first one that I bought and killed an elk with, a Browning A-Bolt in 7mm RM or even the second rifle I bought which was a Weatherby SS Fluted 300 Bee that I have killed eight elk with I would be a whole lot richer!

I own thre BARs, a 308, 30-06 and 300 WM, they all shoot great and I have killed deer with the first two. The 300 is a tree beater that I picked up for $400 from a guy in need, it shoots good but is heavy. Good luck on both (rifle search and elk hunting).

Mr.Winters,you are a wise and practical man,I like that.

There was a time (20+ years) when my only option in a bolt rifle was a 7mm RM. The rifle liked to shoot, I could shoot it well and it did the job with no muss, no fuss, no overthinking my options, no regrets.

I always wondered, though, if perhaps I had made a 'mistake' by not getting a .300 WM instead. So I did. It killed elk but no better than my 7mm RM.

As other rifles came my way and most of them went elk hunting, either as my primary rifle or my backup. Those that were tried killed elk quite efficiently, including a .45-70, two different .30-06s and a .338 WM.

This year I have four �elk virgins�, a Marlin .375 Winchester, a Rem M700 .30-06, a Ruger American .30-06 and a Ruger #1 in .280 Rem. The Ruger American was a gift from Dad and it is the leading candidate for primary rifle this year. (I want to get an elk with it while Dad is still with us.) Unless something changes, the real question this year will be what to take as my backup? The Remington M700 in .30-06 makes the most sense as it is set up with an identical scope and shoots the same as the American, but the Marlin .375 would be the most fun to carry and I would sure like to get an elk with the Ruger #1 in .280 Rem. And so it goes�

Elk season, for me anyway, is 10-1/2 months away and by then I might have another rifle or two to ponder over. In any case, I'll be "overthinking" what rifle to use until mid-October. And having fun doing it.

Fun, yes, but I don't know about the "overthinking" part. Having four rifles that you know will do the job and being willing to pick any one of them sounds about right. And I like your thinking on the leading candidate, that's the best reason to use a particular elk rifle I've ever heard on one of these threads.

Guess I am getting too comfortable. I don't have a lot of choices. It's either the ML or the .06. Either one, I take, they go bang and the elk dies. That is decided by what tag I draw or buy.

I might take the 30-30 or 44 mag carbine if I know I am going to be hunting thick timber. The.308 hasn't been out in years and the 6.5 Swede is only used on goats( maybe deer out east this coming year)

In my younger years, I worried about all that stuff. Finally came to the conclusion that it didn't make much difference in what I was using and I had to perfect my hunting talents more.
After that, things started to die with a lot more regularity every hunting season.

That's why they say 'it's the Indian, not the arrow.'

But you rarely hear about people overthinking the Indian, now do you.

Growing up on an Iowa farm I learned to hunt small game and my brothers and I were pretty hard on the squirrels and rabbits with our single-shot Ithaca 49's. (Before that we were hell on the sparrows and crows with our BB and pellet guns.) Didn't see many deer back then (now when back visiting family I see more deer in a week than in the 50s' through the 70's). Until I moved to Colorado I had never hunted anything larger than fox.

My elk hunting mentors were very good friends but not particularly good elk hunters. As a result I hunted hard for many years with average success. Something clicked in the 90's and I started hunting smarter. As I have aged I've slowed down, too, and couldn't hunt like I used to even if I had the desire to do so, which I don't. But it seems the slower I go the higher my success rate is. 12 elk since 2000 and not once did the choice of firearm make a difference.

Thanks for sharing Coyote Hunter and must admit I was shaking my head and chuckling while reading through your post.

I suspect all the rifles you mentioned would do the job but its funny the differences in thought process we all go through. Some would just pick whatever rifle that fancies them that day while others of us are slow and meticulous. The majority probably fall in between somewhere. I definitively fall into the slow and meticulous category and enjoy the journey/process as well! Decisions...decisions...

Only 20 pages of comments on elk rifles?

You have more than enough replies to cover the ideas you and your hunting partners may have had.

The getting in shape is the best idea, practicing with your rifle is a good 2nd idea. A light flat shooting rifle is a real confidence builder when canyons are 300+ yards across and you aren't getting closer that day. I like a 7 mag or 300 mag but much better to shoot something you are comfortable with using a good bullet - I like the tipped TSX from Barnes but that isn't the only good one.

Are you over thinking your elk rifle? In a word, 'yes'.

You best be using a good bullet, though.

Rest assured I overthought the bullet too. Here is proof

30-06 Elk Bullet - Cost is no object

You'll see references to a Browning BAR in the thread. Of course that all changed via this Overthinking Elk Rifle thread. It's madness I tell ya...and lovin' every moment of it!

My question is, How is the Ruger 77 shooting???

BSA; Been wanting to get to the range with the 77 but it's been so blasted cold here. I think the temp got above 0F today. The range has been open only intermittently too.

Guess I'll have to put on my big boy pants soon and just make it happen one way or the other

I'll bet it's colder than hell in Michigan. Be safe my friend..

Not sure how cold it is in hell, but just looked at the thermometer on the deck, -5 and windy. A heat wave from a couple weeks ago.

Was -10F this morning and the kids have yet another day off school.

In Michigan, 6 days off are allowed. The governor is currently considering extending school hours each day instead of adding days on in June.

It has to be tough at times for those north of me dealing with well below zero temps on a consistent basis...guess you just adapt. Will have to invite the snowmen inside for a hot cup of cocoa this evening

-18 actual temp at 9am this morning...the perils of living in the UP.

YUK!!!!

This thread is wonderful - 21 pages - which shows that not only are you overthinking your elk rifle, but we are, too!

To the OP:

For 99.9% of the time, anything beyond a .30-06 and a Core-Lokt is over-thinking the elk rifle.

But contemplating the options can be fun as well as educational so over-think to your heart's content.

harumph

bingo!