Just bought the Bushmaster O.R.C.. I know nothing about optics for an AR. I am looking at Trijicon. The RMR, Reflex and the Tripower. Which one is better? Do I want any of these? Any info on optics would be greatly appreciated.

All depends on what you want to do with it. I have 3 different guns configured 3 different ways cause I haven't found a true do it all optic.

I didn't care for the Reflex and have no experience with the other 2. For a straight red dot I like Aimpoints but am fond of a low powered variable scope. I use a 1.5-5 Leupold but you might check out the Accupoints if you like Trijicon.

There's a couple of threads not too old that deal with the same question of the best optic.

I was just checking out the Aimpoints. They seem pretty decent also. What model Leupold do you use?

I have a VXIII 1.5-5 this is a 1" scope with a regular duplex. A buddy of mine bought an M4 with the SPR reticle and I didn't much care for it but that's just me, he recently bought a VXIII on closeout with the illuminated circle and dot. It has my interest a little bit. I never needed an illuminated reticle for shooting but it's interesting, I'll know more after I've ran it a bit.

I also have a VXIII 3.5-10 on another gun.

My Aimpoint is the ML3 model since I don't have night vision I saved some money, it also has the 2 MOA dot instead of the 4 MOA.

I too prefer low powered variables over other types. The VXIII 1.5x5 is a great all around optic. Very hard to beat.


TWR,

Do you know where your buddy picked up that closeout illuminated circle dot VXIII?

Midway or Natchez, I had just ordered another 3.5-10 for a 243 and then he brings this thing to me and says "what do you think?"

I was awful tempted to order one myself but too many toys and not enough funds...

Here is what I posted in a thread a couple of months ago reference the same topic:

Without going into a lengthy dissertation, I have tried and been issued a number of different optics for M4 type rifles. The short version is, after using red dots such as the Eotech, and fixed power Acogs, I have settled on low powered illuminated variables.

They allow fast, both eyes open shooting at short ranges on the lowest setting, as well as the ability to dial up for more precise placement at longer ranges. This allows flexibilty in ever changing environments.

Check out Leupold 1.5x5s Nightforce 1x4s or 2.5x10s or one of the IOR optics. I do not have any real long term use behind a Schmidt and Bender to give a solid opinion, but when I have used them on others guns, they seemed solid.

I have been running a 1.5x5 Leupold illuminated for a while now in a Larue mount and it has held up exceptionally well given the environments it has been used in. It sees constant use and gets an A+ in my book as an all around optic.






_________________________

TWR,

Thanks for the heads up. I will look around and see if they have some left at a decent price. I get a discount on leupolds, but sometimes when a retailer is closing them out they even beat the discount.

MS,

What are your pros/cons or tradeoffs with the scope vs red dots or holographic sights in CQB situations?

MM

Montana,

First off I will toss out this disclaimer. My experiences are unique and have led me to have very definate opinions on things, but that does not mean I am any sort of expert. I do not specialize in strictly CQB. It is simply one part of the pie for me.

I am very much a practical realist. I like gear that is simple to use under stress and can be operated at the level of unconcious competence.

CQB is often an interesting subject, since almost everyone believes they are some sort of CQB God. For example,you should see some of the arguements between former SEALs vs former SF guys on the "right" way to do it. It is highly entertaining to watch. Guys get very heated.

I would like to point out a couple of things that have influenced my optics selection.

A close range situation can very quickly become an extended range situation. For example, you may kick in a door to snatch some guy on a warrant or something. Classic CQB right? If the bad guy reads the script and stays inside, then yes. However if he jumps out a window, gets around the one guy covering that side of the house/structure and takes off through the neighborhood, then things just got interesting and ranges extended substantially. This is not theory, it happened.

Similar situations happen overseas. An intial coordinated attack may involve people up close and personal, with additional bad guys at distance with long guns/belt feds in commanding positions.

Many often associate "Urban" fights with CQB. That is simply not the case. You can get some very long shots in urban areas.

On that note, I would much rather have a fight at a distance than a close range fight. EVERYONE shoots good enough at close range. Proximity negates skill.

I have been issued red dot type optics such as EOTECHs and they are best for me at very close range. However they are not flexible. They only do one thing well and offer no target discrimination.

Fixed power optics such as the ACOG are great too as they allow me to discriminate my targets. I can look down the block and see if Haji is looking at us intently, with a cell phone in his hand getting ready to command detonate an IED on us. It also allows the user to make a better determination as to if a suspicious person is a threat or not. Perhaps (often the case) he is merely an interested observer.

Magnified optics also allow a shooter have a better chance of hitting a bad guy who only pokes part of his body around the corner down the block or at a window or dirt berm.

With all that said, the fixed power magnified optic such as a 4x ACOG is slower to get hits with at very close range such as in a meeting hall or courtyard. However I am still a fan of the 4x ACOG and prefer it over an EOTECH.

These are the reasons I finally settled on a low powered variable with illumination as an option for low light.

They are not as fast as a true red dot holographic type sight (EOTECH) for very close shooting. However with practice they are very close. Another advantage the Eotech has is head position. As long as the red dot is on the target, no matter where the dot is in relationship to the optical picture, you can get a hit. A magnified optic require a more consistant sight picture. With practice however that has not really presented a problem.

I keep my 1.5x5 optic on 1.5 power so I have the ability to shoot with both eyes open very quickly at close range.

When needed, I have the flexibilty to dial the optic up to take a more precise shot at greater distances.

BTW, in reference to my Leupold, I actually chose the VXIII over the MKIV. The reason is I did not like the exposed turrets on the MKIV. Turrets are great if you are dialing shots with a precision rifle, but I have found that shoving rifles between seats and piling kit on top of them is not conducive to keeping turrets on zero. In my line of work, guns and gear are always getting shoved where they can and the VXIII with caps covering the adjustment knobs was a better choice.

Another point. I use the same optic when at home on my Colt that I use for coyote hunting and as a general purpose truck/house gun.

It has proven to be ideal as a calling rifle for song dogs. The coyotes can come in at a dead run and be shot at extremely close ranges, or they may hang up out there 100 or 200 yards while trying to locate the source of the noise. The low powered variable has proven to be ideal. Practicing on jackrabbits is also a good and practical skill builder.

Using the same platform in a variety of sporting and work scenarios builds unconcious competence with the system.

That was rather long winded, but hopefully gets my view across clearly. Remember, I am only one guy, with one opinion, that has been colored by a unique career path. Others may have very different views on the subject.

Cheers.

I have tried 3 in my life. The Reflex sucks a bit, the aimpoint is great at close range but the 2 MOA dot gets a bit tougher for precision at 100 (but my eyes are not the best), the Nightforce 1x4 is not bad it seems to be a very tough rifle scope. Most people I talked to when I was buying this said the Leupold 1.5 x 5 was the way to go, but I had to be different. My "opinion" on the heads up display type aiming devices are that they are more easily destroyed than the aimpoint.

MS, that's solid advice. Although you may be just one guy and I get my opinions calling coyotes, it mirrors my experience. I still keep the Aimpoint simply for home defense or for using the AR when I need a shotgun for coyotes. They are just not designed for accuracy at range.
I hear guys say they can bang steel at 400 yards with their aimpoint/eo-thingy all day. That's fine but I can't get a clear enough picture of the target (coyote) at 150-200 yards to feel comfortable taking the shot. I can't imagine if my target was a bad guy or innocent bystander and I had to rely on my Aimpoint to determine it. Give me my 1.5-5 and I can clearly see what I need to.

or what may be the best compromise, EOtech of your choosing and the 3x magnifier (up to 5x if you don't mind off-brand) on a tip off mount.

MS,

Thanks for the perspective.......more or less aligns with my views, albeit w/o your experience.

Your comment on the different service branches having different views is humorous but right on; my BIL is an x-seal, now DOD and is coming to visit this weekend.......we always have a few good discussions and I have to end up selling him half my primer cache.

Good Luck & stay safe.

MM

Looking through one of those magnifiers is like looking through a toilet paper tube. You get the magnification, sure, but the field of view is so constricted that it degrades your ability to "scan" for targets. If you want magnification, a low powered scope is the way to go. I've had both illuminated Leupold 1.5-5's and Trijicon Accupoints and they are both excellent.

I'm sure they can. I can bang steel all day long at 300 yards with open sights with an AR, but it's just banging steel. I want a low powered variable for its versatility when dealing with two or four-legged predators.

My M4 wears an Aimpoint/Larue while it sits in the closet. If I'm taking it to the woodlot or anywhere else, it gets a Leupold switch.

When my 6.8 shows up, it may wear something a little different. I keep wanting to try one of the Vortex scopes to say I did.

George

I think Mackay made an excellent, and not often raised, point about why a low powered optic is a good choice: target discrimination. I have no trouble hitting targets with iron sights or red dots out to 300 yards; I do have trouble discriminating between targets.

Any of you guys look at Burris' new offering in the fixed 3X tactical? The model name escapes me right now, but it was all the buzz at the shot show. Supposed to be out this month.

Anyone get their hands on it?

Mackay,

When you get a chance would you let us know what reticle and tube diameter you prefer?

eh76

I had a VariXIII 1.5-5 and I like it. Wish I still had it for my new flat top upper. Here is a link to the Meopta 1-4. It's got some good reviews at AR15.com. EOTech has a heads up display reticle with a 5.56 reticle for shooting at extended ranges. Use the 3x or 4x magnifier and you have a pretty flexible system. You could go on and on the different systems for the AR. But I prefer the variable low power scope too depend on the application. Here's the link:

http://www.swfa.com/pc-9143-1134-meopta-1-4x22-meostar-r1-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx

The Bushnell Trophy 1.5-4.5x32 is a nice scope for an AR-15, and cheap, too ($120).

If you are shooting out to 500 yards and can estimate or know the range, try a Burris Ballistic Plex. They have a new tactical model and a 30mm tube model with lots of adjustment. They make a mil-dot model, too.

To test it cheaply, buy the Pentax Gameseeker 6x42 with the same Burris reticle in it from Cameraland for $70.00.

+1 on MS post probably the most articulate post I've ever seen on AR optics.

The optic I use is a 30mm with a standard duplex. I have been quite pleased overall with it. That being said, I would like to spend some serious time behind a circle dot reticle and see if I can gain any speed at closer targets or if it has an overalll advantage.

In regards to 1" vs 30mm, I just do not know. I want illumination as an option and I have not used a 1" tubed optic with illumination. On my play guns at home that are non illuminated, I have never had a preference.

The funny part is that this subject came up here with someone yesterday and I went back to my hooch and drew out what I believe would be the perfect reticle for the 1.5x5 for doing the work I am doing.

I apologize for the picture. It was done with a dry erase marker on the inside door of my hooch. I use it as my personal whiteboard.

It may seem a bit odd to have the 25 yard dot there, but often when you are deployed overseas, when your boots hit the ground they hand you a weapon and you go zero. Quite often enough the zero range ends up being some outfits pistol range so the furthest back that you can get might be 25 yards. This is not always the case but having a 25yd zero dot above the horizontal cross hair would be quite practical in my opinion.

I emailed Leupold customer service yesterday about this and am waiting for a reply. I would like to put this reticle in my existing optic or in a new one and give it a solid test for practical application.

MacKay,
Why don't you call Leupy? I think you'd need to speak to Cameron.

BTW have you compared the 1" tube to the 30mm? I'd except it to be brighter at 5X.

Hey Pard,

Thank you for the comment. I realize my perspective may not be the most popular or mainstream but it has come from a lot of trial and error. Maybe not so much error as thinking "what would work better and can I improve my performance?". The one thing that holds true is almost everything is a compromise of some sort.

MS.

GFB,

I am overseas at the moment and calls are tough. However if you have a contact, I sure would like to have a direct email addy to correspond to an interested individual. That would be a big help. Like I posted earlier, I just emailed customer service yesterday. I have no idea if that will get me anywhere or not.

Any help would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks,
MS

No problem, I like to give credit where credit is due. Yup it sure is a compromise. And what might work great for one person might not be ideal for another. I had a 1-5x on my "dangerous" game rifle for Alaska. I trained for a year with it under every scenario that I could think of at the time always setting it back to 1.5 so I thought I was GTG. Then one day up there I had to look down a tramac so I cranked up the mag with the scope off the rifle. It had a quick detach mount so after I mounted back on the rifle and forgot to crank it down. Good thing a griz didn't happen by. After that I got a fixed 2.5X. But I've been going back to the variables like you, it's been pretty well seared into head to turn it down after every use and checked constantly. Sending you a PM.

I've been out of the business for about 6 months. Things change fast sometimes in sales. But I still have some friends in the business so I'll make some calls. It may take till sometime next week to get some answers but I'll see what I can come up with.

Mackay, correct me if I'm wrong but if you zero at 100 yards on an AR, won't your POA need to be high at 25?

I zero at 50 and at close range I have to aim high to compensate for the height of the scope, about 1"-1.5"

The 25 yard crosshair has me confused.

edit: zeroed at 50 I'm about an inch low at 25, 1.75 high at 100 on at 200 or as close as I can tell. I don't understand your reticle and am simply trying to understand not knocking it.

Danged it, I drew that bass akwards didn't I. Good thing you pointed that out before I actually sent anyone a drawing of what I wanted.

Ultimately I want a POI/POA dot, a primary zero @ the horizontal cross hair and subsequent horizontal lines at 50/100 yd increments.

I was wrapped up in the design of the sight picture/reticle and completely dropped the ball.

The more I thought about it today too, the more I think I need to change the zero to 200yds and run the smaller horizontal bars to 400 yds. I will snap a picture of the revised version.

OK, actually putting the thinking cap on, here is what I came up with.

Using the printed ruler in my pocket notebook I measured my bore/scope offset at about 2.75"s.

I guesstimated 62 grain M855 at about 3000 fps.

I revised my plan a bit and went with a 200 yd zero after fiddling with a 4X ACOG today looking @ distant targets in our area.

200 yd zero.

25 yds -1.4
50 yds -.3
100 yds 1.1
150 yds 1.3
200 yds ZERO
250 yds -2.9
300 yds -7.8
350 yds -14.9
400 yds -24.5

I just couldn't get my mind to grasp that but usually am wrong.

This new drawing is something I might could live with. I would like to see the 25 mark a different color than the rest since things seem to happen quickly at 25 yards. The reason I like the standard duplex better than the SPR reticle, is it's too much stuff and up close and in a hurry I tend to center the whole thing instead of a little line. Just an idea...

I have trained myself to just aim high up close and way out there but I've been playing with the B&C reticle on my 22-250 and am loving the benefits of an actual aiming mark. Even been thinking ACOG because of this and ditching the Aimpoint. Sound idea and with as many AR's being sold now I'd think Leupold would embrace the idea of a 5.56/223 matched reticle.

Good catch TWR! LOL, my mind got all backwards also. Different color might be good I agree things will probably happen fast at that range. However at that distance the mag will probably be set at 1.5X and 1.1 or 1.4" on a center chest won't make much dif. When I was training hard I picked a reference point the apricot shot and trained at that mag w/ the appropriate target and let muscle memory take over. So it may be possible that a different color could be a distraction. Not a dig at you mind you, just a thought. It would all depend on which training method or school of thought you'd adhere to. MS I came up with 1.1" @ 25yds with a Speer 62gr FMJ BT at 3000fps and 2.0" offset for the sights. I'll measure the offset when I get back from hunting and fishing. Be Safe.

Last fall I bought a Trijicon 1.25x4, the ones with the 1 inch tubes, with the red triangle reticle. I put it on a .444 Marlin single shot to try it out for the winter and really liked it. My intent was to put it on my M4 carbine after deer season, but have subsequently bought a RRA predator model flat top. I put the Trijicon on it last week and tried it out. I have done a lot of reading and thinking about sights/optics for these AR's and did not really like the idea of the red dots etc much for the same reasons described so well above. The Trijicon is an excellent scope, does not require a battery and I think is gonna be just the ticket, being the best all around choice.

i like the acog by trijicon.

very cool scope, and the mount is set up so you can still use irons, and don't have to flip anything out of the way.

-tom

Anyone have any good or bad comments on the ATN Professional 5x33L Tactical?? I am not looking to use my AR for hunting. I live in PA and we can't use semi's rifles for hunting. I am new to the AR and I am looking to spend up to $400 on some optics. I'm not really sure what I want. When I go to look at scopes not everyone carries what I want to compare.

2 optics immediately come to mind with a budget of less than $400.

Weaver makes a 1x3 non illuminated scope that is not too expensive (around $150 I think)and is a solid japanese built scope. I have one mounted on a Marlin lever gun and it is one of those rare times where I definately believe I got more than I paid for. It has held up well to 30-30 recoil, adjusts true and maintains its zero. I have seen pictures of quite a few mounted on guys ARs that shoot three gun competitions and people seem quite happy with them as an AR optic.

Weaver also has the 1.5x4.5 "extreme" which is an illuminated "tactical" 30mm scope that is being closed out at natchez for around $270. I picked one up but have not had a chance to use it yet.

I would pick something along those lines before I bought anything that was made in China. I would rather run iron sights than rely on a questionable scope. Below the Leupold level of quality, I would definately go with a Weaver or buy a used Leupold.

Thanks for the info everyone. I think I'm going to go with the Millett Tactical 1-4X24 DMS.

Trijicon is Jap glass that is assembled in Wixom, MI. That is, at least the civi issue stuff is. I can not comment on where the stuff that our troops/LEO are using comes from. Perhaps others can.

That said, I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that their Accupoint is the real deal. Incredibly bright in low to bright conditions. Rapid acquisition. Incredibly durable. Exceeds my FXIII's in terms of clarity.

Pricey, but worth it if your task is. Were they not so expensive, all my rifles would have one.

On a budget (as I now am). Weaver Grand Slam. Bushnell 4200 Elite. For an AR, 1.5-5x40.

i have always prefered these...

they are free, they dont break, they are as accurate as i need to be w/ a battle rifle.
no use changing what aint broke. how much ammo can you buy for what an ARMS system and a ziess cost or better yet an ACOG?

The question has been answered in the field by our troops. Optics make a battle rifle better.

As has been stated already, magnified optics help identify threats quicker and help shot placement.

Red dots up close and personal are quicker and in a gun fight, quick accurate fire wins.

How much ammo? These days not so much... so using what ammo you have wisely makes sense.

the optics on an ar is a band-aid. the soulution isnt a flowerpot on a tank. the solution is not to use a tank in town.
the optics were a way to use current inventory. the soultion is to build from the ground up a better MOUT fighting platform. one suited for CQB. in that situation i agree that a dot or a 1.5X IR is prefered.
but in speaking of the platform, the AR is a general purpose battle rifle BEST suited for use w/ iron sights.
you cant chop the barrel and slap on a red dot and make an m16 the equal of a submachine gun inside an 8' room.
that type of fighting is best suited for a medium cyclic rate submachine gun like the Kriss superV or the UMP.

and then sometimes a band-aid is all you need...

nevermind

A lot of dead radical muslims would disagree about the inferiority of the "chopped AR". Besides, we have a tool used in 8' rooms you describe. It is called a 14" 870 shotgun and we almost never use them. The general purpose M4A1 carbine with a general purpose low powered variable works for me since I am not issued a crystal ball to tell me what parameters of the fight will be.

Now back to our previous discussion.........

Durn good synopsis Mackay. I want/need something I can use going in or standing on a perimeter. I think the weaver will do nicely. Most everyone I work with runs an eotech, and I'm the hold out with irons. I actually have one but have never gotten acquainted with it.

MS makes a very important point--we don't know what the fight will look like.

I am just a tax lawyer from Orygun, but even I can figure that out.

None of the guys in the NRA's "Armed Citizen" files got the fight they envisioned.

Nevertheless, I continually encounter guys who "know" what the "situation" will be.

Both ourselves and our tools must serve general, not special, purposes.

I see this specialization problem everywhere.

The survivalist who cannot swim--He is prepared for the end of the world but will can't survive a fall into 5 foot deep ditch.

The Fat Martial Artist -- He knows 43 different ways to break a board but he cannot run 1 mile if required (flash flood, chemical spill, whatever).

The "Gun Nut" who owns a different rifle for each combat scenario but has not trained with any of them.

Each one of these guys has a limited, predetermined scenario that he is training for. Sadly they odds are EXTREMELY high that real life won't meet their predictions.

That being said . . . . . . .

(sheepish grin) . . . . .

My AP4 (a DPMS M-forgery in 308) wears a 6x42 HEAVY DUPLEX Leupold. Target acquisition inside a room is best described as "sucky", but it can be done.

Its "mostly" a General Purpose AR, but first round hits at 300 yards (prone or kneeling with a rest) are pretty easy.

Good Shooting.

BMT

Great post, BMT.

-KS

Thank you.

BMT

BTW guys Natchez is out of the Weavers.....I just checked.

Some great information and conversation on this thread which brings up another point to throw into the pot of ideas............whoever said anything about just using the AR-15 platform for CQB or MOUT or as a offensive or defensive type weapon concerning optic use?

How about the everday American hunter who prefers hunting varmints (or any big game animal if thats legal in your state)with their AR platform? I train and use my bushmaster as a defensive weapon platform (home defense) and as a hunting arm for hunting coyotes or wolves here in Alaska. My optic of choice is the Leupold 4x12x40mm 1 inch tube. If I need to shoot close than I train to shoot over the scope tube instinctively in close quarters. Works for me!

Thats why I really enjoy the AR platform.........because its a very versatile platform and can be used in many different ways!

Airborne,

Please refer back to page #1 where we discuss using the AR and a low powered variable as an ideal platform for coyote hunting.

But just for giggles and to entertain ya, here is a pic from a coyote hunt that turned into a grouse hunt, that was followed by grouse in the crockpot. Welcome to the forum.

This one was taken with my Colt AR with the 1.5x5 Leupold.

This one was taken with a Bushy/JP lower and a custom Rock River upper, with 2.5x10 IOR Valdada for glass. I ended up only having a head shot which was pretty ugly for pics so this picture is the least graphic I have of this dog.

Here is another dog from a week earlier:

I'm running Leupold 3-9x50's on my open calling AR's.

I'm running a fixed 6 on my other one.




I'm not a 50mm fan but when calling in open country, I'll take it for a few ounces more weight.

Great pics GMoney.

The plain old 3x9 is completely overlooked these days. That is a shame because it really does a whole lot of things well.

Smile when you call me Fudd...




That's my cousin and his hog, you can't see it but it's a Bushmaster Varminter. The bobcat pic is his as well both of those guns wear 6.5-20's and the rest of mine are of 1.5-5 and 3.5-10's. I even have used the Aimpoint succesfully just no pics. The AR is a versitile platform, limited only by your imagination...

Plentey more where that came from Mackey...grin...

A 3-9 and/or a 2-7 are about the only calling variables I'd ever run.

Love those pics. I used a 1.5-5x for a whitetail and turkey hunt out in Texas. I really wanted to get a 1-4X for my flat top set up. But money is short right now and I have 3-9x Tasco that I got in a trade so that will go on the AR this season. Nice shooting guys.

Since we are sharing pics . . . .



That's a Leupold 6x42.

Very easy to use . . . .

BMT

Looks good BMT.

We can tell about our guns or show em, me I'd rather see em. Alot easier to describe that way.

I do like this rig.

BMT

I do like this rig.

BMT